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What's Your Take on Using Empire Archers?

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Pistol Pete:

--- Quote from: lcmiracle on January 30, 2024, 02:05:39 AM ---
--- Quote from: Mike Stockin on August 25, 2023, 04:59:26 PM ---Interesting, in 3rd there are 2 compulsory units.
Helblitzen (Halberds) and Armbrustschutzen (Crossbowmen).

This would suggest crossbows are very common.

However I think  @Rowsdower was saying the archer (bow) is rare rather than the crossbow?

--- End quote ---

And the English longbowmen was really something only the English could field anyway; longbowmen require long periods of training, which the English had laws mandating something like the freemen to practice shooting with them a minimal number of days each year. In contrast the crossbow was much easier to use. Which is also why firearms replaced the bow in the end -- it didn't start out better than bows, but when it became clear that guns could be used by a peasant with very little training, it took over because the ability to raise more able soldiers> the ability to raise few elite fighters.

--- End quote ---

This is part of the reason that crossbows and guns replaced arrows. But the biggest reason was economic factors.

Arrows are surprisingly difficult to make. The long shaft requires very specific wood types and it takes a lot of time.to make the individual arrows and then straighten them. It also takes lots of work to keep them straight.

This is labor intensive and takes lots of specialized arrow makers.

Crossbow bolts are significantly shorter and thicker than arrows. They are MUCH simpler to make, use less wood, and the wood type isn't as critical. The shorter, thicker bolt shafts also tend not to bend or warp nearly as much as arrows, so this reduces labor too.

Thus, you can manufacture crossbow bolts MUCH cheaper than arrows, and the skill level of the bolt craftsmen are nowhere near as important.

Likewise, it's incredibly easy to manufacture lead shot. It requires very little skill at all! Once you have molds, you.can crank ammo out by the millions. Lead shot is also immune to environmental factors and very easy to store andmtransfer in large quantities compared to arrows or bolts.

Even though crossbows and guns are more expensive and difficult to make than bows, the savings on ammo is so much more important in the long run.

Rowsdower:
^
Hollywood has a lot to answer for doesnt it. How many Robin Hood movies depict the Merry men, hastily and effortlessly manufacturing arrows in a limited time frame.

lcmiracle:
Based on 1st edition roleplay, Dwarfs: Stone & Steel, the Empire first came to build cannon in 1991 IC

--- Quote ---Nuln
Nuln's 850 Dwarfs live primarily in the Schwarzrauch district on the south bank of the River Aver, near its confluence with the Reik. Nearby is the renowned Imperial Gunnery School and the Richtofen Armaments Foundry, Both were founded by the Dwarf Engineers Guild for the Nuln Emperor in 1991 I.C. With the consent of the High King and the Guild master of Karaz-a-Karak, the Dwarf Engineers of Nuln instructed their neighbours in the craft of manufacturing cannon barrels and mixing gunpowder. The lmperial Gunnery School maintains close ties with the Dwarf Engineers' Guild.
--- End quote ---
And it is also stated that on page 109's timeline that it is when cannons found its way into the imperial arsenal.
WFRP 2nd edition contradicted this however, by stating in Companion that "The first foundry and gunnery school was established in the century leading up to the Great War Against Chaos" (page 99), thus putting in in the 2200s.
This is further fucked in 4th edition RP:

--- Quote ---From the Dwarfs the technology spread to Humans, though this was a slow process as the Dwarfs guarded their technological secrets jealously. By the year 2000 IC, gunpowder weapons began to appear throughout the Old World, mainly via the close relationship between the Dwarfs and the people of the Empire, and from there the secret of black powder escaped into the wider world. Though Dwarf powder remains the best and most reliable available, cruder — yet effective — mixtures are produced and used in far greater quantities by the forces of the Empire and beyond. Despite the limitations and dangers of this new technology, its utility is undeniable.
                            ----------------------------------------Up in Arms (p. 99),
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---When handguns began to proliferate in the armies of the Empire circa 2000 IC, Borys von Tasseninck refused to supply them to Ostland’s State Troops, claiming ‘their implementation would mean wasting perfectly good swords and spears’. These words have become proverbial, uttered every time an Ostlander wishes to decry out-of touch aristocrats.
                            ----------------------------------------Sea of Claws (p.29)
--- End quote ---
My opinion is that, multiple sources put gunpowder weapon's introduction to the imperial arsenal as early as the 2000 IC (Mordheim, RP1 & 4), so 2nd is clearly mistaken and it should have been "centuries" instead of "century".

Anyways, huntsmen are clearly militia, and imperial archers ain't no longbowmen, that's for sure. I don't like them as the mainline range unit precisely due to the "feel" they have. Like they are reasonable pickets and skirmishers, but handguns/crossbows should be the professional soldiers in the Imperial army.

Also because the Empire should be like the H.R.E. Landsknecht, so no archers

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