The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild > Armies Beyond The Empire

Dark Elves

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SaintofM:
I got into the game either late 6th edition or early 7th edition one day board in the all because I  went with my Mom while she was shopping, didn't want to just hang out in the women's department one day and found a Games Workshop store. I picked up the first book i saw, and went: You had me at knight riding dinosaur!

[Edit, old in red, new thoughts now the shooting phase rules have been made available.. And now that they have, very bottom will look at them]

Been playing them when I could since. Not the best player, but I was more of a lore and moddel guy in the hobby anyways.

So with some pretty pictures to break up the wall of text my thoughts on some of the units, not going into Special Charecters. Don't remember where I got most of the pics, just had them for a while
 
In general with army wide rules, I think they need to have hatred (reroll failed to hit rolls against their target, usually of a specific type such as Dwarven Hatred: Greenskins.) to everything and Eternal Hatred for High Elves, as that gives them better chances to hit. I don't think all elves need the Always Strike First rule (the unit always gets to strike first in melee. Depending on the edition, if they are fighting another unit with this either this will attack at the same time OR initiative order as usual. Also, if they have Always Strike Last which does the opposite and ASF the two rules cancel each other out), and yes this is coming from someone that appreciated its entry. Some elvin units like Dark Elf Assassins or High Elf Sword Masters of Hoath make sense to me as it fits their lore and would show off their mastery. However its way too overkill.


From there, lets start with the Core nits.


Dreadspears (Spearmen) Bleak Swords (swords and Sheild) and Dark Shards (Repeating Crossbows.

Spearmen and Swordsmen I expect to be about 8 or 9 points a pop, all three of these getting Light armor and having the following stats:
Movement 5, Weapon Skill 4, Ballistic Skill 4, Strength 3, Toughness 3, Wound count of 1, Initiative 5, 1 attack, and a Leadership of 8. Sheilds being added to spearmen for another point and you will need it, and the Crossbows getting 11 or 12 points a pop.

Champions getting +1 to ballistic skill for range, and +1 attack for the melee.


I am hoping they continue the pissing contest between the three units as Spearmen see themselves as dedicated soldiers and pride themselves in discipline; Swordsmen are the lesser or illegitimate children of nobility and see themselves as being of a higher station; and Dark Shards can hit a fly between the wings.


Xbows on the will be different, as they are repeating crossbows. Loosely based on the ancient Chinese model, with some dark elves having bayoneted on them. S3 24inch Range can move and shoot. They can fire normally or with 2X attacks with the multiple shot rule. This gives them a -1 to hit, but this weapon was always about quantity over quality.


I can see putting my Spearmen in a 7 by 5 formation and either having a block of 20 or 25 swordsmen. I do not know how many ranks will get attacks as of typing this, so maybe one maybe more. Spears add a rank of attacks, but only when attacking in the front ark and not while they are being flanked. So while this gives them an offensive edge, flank charges I suspect will win the day. Swordsmen will be more armored, as hand weapon and shield combo for infantry (be interesting to see how they do the save bonus). However both units will be lightly armored, so a good barrage of range attacks from crossbows or handguns should work.

Also a good charge from a unit that hits hard like halberdiers or knights.


Dark Shards, I can see being used in the classic gunline to maximize the number of attacks they can do. As only the front rank can shoot, it will be interesting to see if they get bonus ranks if on a hill or not. Normally how the Gunline formation worked was to have instead of ranks of troops, you have the entire unit in one or two ranks, say up to 10 miniatures long. The downside with this is they are now a bigger target and if they do get into combat they do not have any ranks to support them. I plan on having 10 to 20 that way, to maximize the number of shots. That said, while they can handle close combat better than most range units due to their armaments, they will still suffer if in this popular formation. Flying characters, and if the Bowmen have scouts as well as skirmish, have at thee.


*Edit* With the new rules out, we know what we are getting into.  It seems that only the front rank can shoot in the shooting phase. Buildings and hills may offer more than this, but until then I can forseee several small units of 10 being the gun lines, with minimum upgrades needed to keep them alive.  That was a tried and true shooting unit standart regardless of army for years, and we are bringing it back. That said I can still see myself using a unit of 20 with 2 ranks so they have some kind of rank bonus with all the shots they are getting. Otherwise what I said about them still stands. And only the front rank can fight in close combat. Spears if they act as they normaly do, even in age of sigmar, will add extra attacks simply because of their reach.



Corsairs: A pirates life for me. More expensive but they come with the options. 10 or 11 points again. They will have light armor and a sea dragon cloak that should provide another layer of armor in close combat and 2 against range attacks. This makes them pretty good against shooty armies. They will either have an extra hand weapon which has been their classic combo, or a handow (is a pistol crossbow, S3 10 inch range, quick to shoot, 2x attacks) with the champion in either option having an option of a brace of them. I never did the handbow thing but they seem pretty cool enough.

It will be interesting if they get the slaver rule again. It happened in 7th eddition but they were allowed to reduce the speed of an enemy by D6 when they broke from combat. It might be too much cheese as is. I can see these guys being in a 5x4 of a 7 by 4 formation as they will have lots of attacks.  Lore wise anyone can join them, they just have to provide their own gear and sign up to a ship for 10 years. If they survive they will be rich, wealthy enough to marry into a prominent family even.

If I were to attack them, again, close combar with either high defence or your own high attack, namly in strength. Shooting won't do too much unless as they will have a 4+ save, but Handguns rip through armored units with ease so use them. Also war machines.



Dark Riders: The Fast Cave of the army. Spears standard and light armor. I think they started off usually around 15 points a pop, but could go higher when adding the repeating crossbows. They could also take a shield without loosing fast cav, making them fairly durable. It will be interesting how this remains the same. As they are fast cavalry, I wouldn't put them against most heavy hitting units unless you are using them to flank or rear charge them, and they have another unit taking them at the front. Otherwise harass with range weapons, take at least a musician to rally easier as you can use them to bait enemy units. Their speed and tight maneuverability also makes it so you can get them to units in the far bac, making them perfect for hunting wizards, war machines, and most other range units. I would either take them in small unit of 5 with a musician if you are just harassing and baiting enemy units, or a 10 strong unit with banner and champion if you want to enter combat with them.

I see their biggest weaknesses being they are fast cave, so while their maneuverability and ability to get a many guys in the front rank to fight is a bonus, it comes at the cost of having ranks. Shoot at them. Shoot at them, and while normally a 4+ save might hinder that, they will be in a small unit or they won't take the shield if just harassers. In close combat, have your own Fastcave or skirmishers join them as they fight something bigger. Against a dedicated combat unit, they won't do well.

ANd some of my own dark riders made from old school glade rider kits and some spare DE warrior bits and a friend's dwarf ax.



Will do Special in a different post, and as Harpies and Witch Elves were there more times than not, that is where they will go for now.

THoughts on how they might work this eddition and how to best use them or fight against them?

GamesPoet:
Seems we haven't seen much of anything on them yet for the impending release of The Old World..

SaintofM:
From what I understand they will be a PDF, same with the others not getting an army yet.
Modifying this as I go, will finish the rest of this poist and the pictures that go with it later.

Going on to the special units...

Cold One Knights are some of the more iconic units in the army, right behind witch elves and hydras when it comes to first units most people think of. I suspect they will be close to 30 points a pop, with higher WS and Strength and LD. They have heavy armor, lances, shields, and ride murder lizards called cold ones. One part the raptors of Jurassic Park, one part roided Komodo dragon, they provide the unit Thick Skin which acts as barding, and fear. THey have strenght 4 attacks, and while slow in initative, they also got 2 attacks in 8th eddition.

They could take 50 points of magic banner and the champ could take a up to 25 point magic item.

ike most heavy cave, I suspect they will be used as a hammer to break enemy lines, then chasing them off the feild. I know from personal experiance they do really good attacking an enemy flank. I just hope they bring back the hydra banner so when I do my big Death Star with them, they just pile on the attacks.

But they have weaknesses. I suspect they will be between 28 and 32 Points, so pricy, and just doing a unit of ten and basic unit upgrades can set you back 360 points give or take. If they bring back something like the ranger standard that gave them strider, thats another 40 and we hav 400 points there. II doubt there will be many big units of them. Even at 2000 points, I can see maybe a unit of 15, but most other games 10 at most. Welp, the Lore of metal wizard is going to earn back its cost today.

Like all cavalry, they have huge flanks so easy to flank them. They have lances so if they do not get enough kills in on the turn they charge, thyey are back to base strength. THat is going from Strength 6 to Stength 4, so still able to deal some damage, but still not as much as beofre.

And the cold ones. They have average WS, so hitting an Empire Spearman on 4's. Movement 7 means they are about as fast an an empire knight with their barding but will be slightly outpaced by Highelves and Brettonia I suspect.

Oh, and they come with Stupidity. Leadership 9 mitigates this to a strong degree, but its still a risk. You think you have them perfectly lined up for a charge, and the dice gods say: Nope, not today. Still one of my favorite units none the less.



Executioners: Hands down, probably one of the best infantr units in the game. S4, great weapons, and killing blow. Can take Magic banners up to 50 points, which in the last eddition inclded one that gives a unit armor pircing, and another banner that bestowed terror.

I think 12 to 13 points, so units of 15 to 20 will due. Their main weakness is they have Heavy Armor so a good round of shooting should help whittle them down. Great Weapons are great at killing things but also gives them Always Strikes Last. Their high weapon skill should help them survvie, but if they keep them to the standard elf one of WS4 they may take more hits in than expected.



Witch Elves: Could be a core in the last edition, and in earlier ones only if a special character was leading so may have this again. This is very much a glass cannon; very powerful but also very fragile. What they lack in armor they make up in attacks. High WS and Imitative, means they will get in a lot of hits and chances are going in first on most rounds (i think it was I6). They come with 2 hand weapons and frenzy, so each model will have 3 attacks (4 for the champion). Those same attacks will also have poison, so if they roll a 6 to hit they skip the wounding phase all together and go strait to saves. Being S3, they won't go through alot of armor, but a standard formation of 5 wide means about 16 attacks, so a couple are bound to be poisoned. This makes them pretty good at dealing with monstrous, monster, and lightly armored units in general. The hag champion can take 25 points of items, which will most likly be the witch brew which will help them with the frenzy. And since they are frenzied, they ignore panic while they have it.

That said they have 2 glaring weaknesses. They have no armor, so unless a cauldron of blood gives them a ward save, a good round of shooting or Close combat can rip them to shreds. If they loose close combat, they loose frenzy which means they loose an attack and thief ability to ignore panic, fear, and terror

At only 10 points a pop, maybe a couple more, they are still a viable unit and one worthy of taking.




Cold One chariots: about 100, 110 points. They come with scythed wheels, spears, and crossbows, and the murder lizards. Like all chariots, they cannot march so need those crossbows to get some early kills in. And they come only in groups of one. SO by themselves not so good. However I have used them going along side monsters and infantry as support, and they shine there chariots are really good at one thing: charging. They get D6 impact hits, which deal auto hits before  the rest of combat. All they have to do is make a successful charge. The scythed wheels depending on which edition rules they decide to bring back will either increase the number of impact hits by 1 or their strength. At S5, the chariot hits hard, and with the same T and a 4+ armor save can hold its own.

However this is also why i like it as a support as if it doesn't role enough impact hits that deal unsaved damage, its stuck. It has no ranks, no banners, only charges and damage, and that is not always enough.

And This is my unit, yes that is a damsel on the back of it. She is indeed distressed.



harpies: 13 points, flying skirmishers. They will have a number of elf stats, and have 2 attacks. As flyers, they are also skirmishers, and a popular use of them were as skirmisher screens (they blodked line of sight, and shooty units would get some negatives for shooting over half range and into a skirmishing unit), or for hunting range units like cannons and archers. They came in flocks of 5-15, and I hope they get some of the Storm of Magic upgrades such as poison attacks they can add on for a point each. Due to their flying ability, they would also be perfect for hunting down fleeing enemies.

But thats as far as their usefulness. No armor and a LD of 6 means most units that can handle themselves in a fight will win more times than not. Also havn't had a proper upgrade in a  while, but since beastmen are coming and they also had them they may get an updated look. Its that or kitbash Tyranid Gargoyals with Daemonets or Witch Elves.



Shades: The scouts and skirmishers. About 14 to 15 points sadard, they have hand weapons and repeating crossbows standaards. For another point, you get 2 hand weapons, or for 2 great weapons. This gives them a bit more edge in close combat. Add high WS, BS and Initiate, and a Champion that gets a boost in both their number of attcks BS you have a decent unit. Can be feilded up to 15, but units of 5 to 10 work great. Like all skirmishing scout, harrassing most units, and hunting range units is their goal, and they are great at it. But they will be pricy and they will have the same weaknesses

This group in the next picture is my group, and one using old spar warrior bits and kit bashing them on Wood Elf GLade Guard. It was a popular way to make them as the alternative were the pewter/finecast minies. Hopefully an update.



Hydra: well worth their points, I think 150. They were a rare choice in ages past, but since then we got the Kharibdys to take that slot. THey have a ton of attacks, most baste on it remaining wounds that gradualy heal. A firey breath, 2 more attacks from the handlers, terror, 4+ scaly skin, and they are awsome! Perfect for dealing with large groups of enemies. They may not do so well when hit with fire, and they striking them with heavy attacks by greatweaposn can make it back off. Supporting your other units, this thing will make your day.



Reaper Bolt Throwers: 100 points each, crew of 2 and you can take 2 of them per special slot. They can either do a normal shot:s6, ignores armor, can penetrate ranks but each rank gets hit by a bolt at -1 strength. So a Knight in rank one gets S6, rank 2 Gets S5 and so on. Perfec for dealing with heavily armored units, and since this also causes D3 wounds per mini, good for wounding chariots and monsters. Or it can shoot 6 shots at -2 AC. Each shot needs to be rolled for, but this is better for groups. The only thing that is a glaring issue is they only have 2 guys instead of of the usual 3, so easier for skirmishers to take out.



Black guard were special in the last book, but I will leave them for the rare choice.


And because I completly forgot about them, the Scourge Runner Chariot. A light chariot pulled by a pair of darksteeds, its main claim to fame is one of the range attacks is not made with a repeating crossbow but a small Balista. Scourge runner something or another, it acts as a bolt thrower except on monsters where it drags them around. I forget if it does extra dammaege, but this is essentialy the Dark Elf prefered methood of capturing monsters for their war efforts An alternatie o the Cold One Chariot, if you want fast and sleek, here you go. Haven't gotten the newer chariots yet, so don't know how much of them work, but it might be fun to see how they work out. In any case, happy hunting.

They are mostly going to be used for shooting and dealing with monsters. They can do some stuff in CC being chariots and armed with spears, but they are stll lightly armored chariots so use them this way with disgression.

SaintofM:
Ok, lets look at the traditionally rare units.

Starting with Black Guard. They were special in the last edition, but I think rare is good enough considering there are suppose to e fewer of them than the others. Heavy armor, halberds, WS and Initiative cloer to 6 I suspect, Immune to psychology, 2 attacks standard, higher than normal allotment for magic standards, maybe some magic items for the champion, and stubborn. 15 to 16 points a pop I suspect, a good unit of 20 will do. Their main problem will be expense both in points and monetary concerns, but they will attack the enemy with lots of S4 attacks, and they will inevitably be the first attackers in most fights. Combine stubborn and immune to psychology they won't flee anytime soon, and I suspect they will have a LD of 9 to go with it. That said they are elves, so T3, and they have heavy armor so a good round of shooting to whittle them down before the melee. You are going to need it. Every eddition gave them eternal hated everything, so they aleays reroll failed to hit rolls.



Kharibdys: Named after a Greek monster, Charibsis, that made massive whirlpools. Along side her partner in crime Skylla, she was a nightmare to face and to between them was the origonal rock and a hard place saying.

In this case, we have a brawling sea hydra looking creature. With multiple squid faced heads. S6, terror, Abysmally Howl which will lower enemy LD by 1, poison attacks I think. It will have fewer attacks, maybe the same amount as a griffon, but if it uses those attacks on the same foe then it can get some wounds back. Frankly I think it should get wounds back by attacks done by its maws, but that is me. If the Hydra is for big crowds, this is a brawler meant to kill monsters and heros. Probably going to be under 200 points. Like the hyda, I also believe there will be a pair of beastmasters that hang on and add a couple weak attacks to the mix.

Its a large target with Scaly skin 4, and I suspect it will have a toughness of 5 or 6, so keep that in mind. It has a low initiate, but that might not help you if you can't survive it. Cannons, a couple volleys of shooting, and high strength melee attacks, and or your best tarpit and or anvil units. Even with an anvil unit that can take a hit, this beast should be able to lay down the hurt on even them (Strength 6 goes through 3 layers of armor, negating things like Empire Plate or chaos armor).



Bloodwrackshrine: THis was the alternative for the Cauldon of Blood. Instead of a hag and a pair of witch elves, its a Medusa and a pair of attendents of Atharty (Venus stand in) with spears. I will get into the mudusa in a minute, as she didn't get to shine until AFTER the end of the world on her own.

Its an interesting unit as it is a chariot with S4 impact hits and AC6, but can join units. Friendlies get +1 to their LD (the pain the medusa radiates is so lovley to them) and lowers enemies by -1 (its a nightmare). It has the bloodwrack stare which causes an enemy unit in base contact, or as a shooting attack with a 12" range to pass an imitative test or take D3 wounds (instead of turning to stone, the Medusa of warhammer make your insides your outsides). THey have 3 attacks each and a spear, and if you charge with them I think the bonuses for mounted will also work.

This I can also see this enlarging a unit, maybe giving them hoard status. That said, it does have some weak defences so you might have a chance in melee, and it will take up a large chunk of space, so may mitigate some attacks. Its high risk high reward. Oh, and it should cause terror. Terror, -1 LD to enemies...by By Goblin army.


THe Medusa herself...Lets just say they got screwed over here as much as the mythological namesake got screwed over by Athena. If you feild one on...on foot (on belly, scoots, whats the proper word here), and it has

THe problem is they have an LD of 2, 3 wounds, and come in units of 1. This means they are support at best, and while they still have their range attacks, this may still be an issue as they won't last long in Comat. In Age of Sigmar their survivability was improved as they became a full fledged charecter, but if they are not taken on the Shrine its because you used it for the Cauldon of Blood and or you needed 90 points to spend. She needs to be in a group, even if its just 2 other ladies joining her.

OH, and for personal taste, I had to green stuff a complete bra on her. She's got one metal plate on one boob, and the other is sticking out like. If you have little ones/adults that will be looking at you with shame already because you play with little army men in your adult years, this could be a problem (see also Marilith demons in D&D). Also it looks odd. Give her chest support or let the ladies run free. Then again, this could work as battle damage...she is bleeding blood everywhere as is.




Doom Fire Warlocks: Also another late comer to 8th edition, they were the alternative build for Dark Riders. And frankly if I get a unit of them, I might do it as a centaur theme. Malakeith, Witch King of the Dark Elves, feared his doom would come at the hands of a male spellcaster, so forbade male practitioners of magic on the price of death. Those that still did hid it. Those that did not if not killed, might end up like the coven of Doom Fire Warlocks whose souls are ever closer to being consumed by Slannesh. Like the Dark Eldar, they inflict pain and sacrifice on others to postpone their fate. THey use a pair of daggers with poison attacks, making them one of a handful of cavalry units that can take 2 hand weapons. They count as fast cavalry, and they have a pair of bound spells. Doom bolt which is a powerful magic missile, but I forget the other. Most likely something that will weaken an enemy unit. Being bound spells, they are easy to cast, and as fast cave they can attack weaker units.

We'll need to see what the rules on bound spells are, but this might be good units to use whn you have a couple power dice left or waste enemy dispel dice. THey will be expensive (yeah, I know) but they might fill a nitch for you.



Sisters of SLaughter: Came in around 7th ed I think. THe alternative build for witch elves. Gladiatrixes, what they lack in range defences, they make up for in the melee. Against strong apponents they get +1 to hit and wound, and a 4+ ward save. Combine shield's own perry rules, if they keep it, high attack, high I, and high WS they will make supriing onster hunters. They can even take magic banners. The sheild also provides another bonues: Roll a Save with it in the via armor or ward save of 6 and you get to make an imediate attack back at the enemy (yes I can humerously see this back and forth the whole game between two units of them).

 Its still like 60 bucks for 10 so, probably not in bit units. Witch elves and they had a movement of 6 so that might help them get in CC faster.

That said, they have as much armor on as their model's show. A sheild can do so much. Shooting and a barage of attacks. Just remember they will get first blood, and they were made for larger units. They won't have as much armor penatrating power so heavily armored units will be a must.




Next time a the charecters.

SaintofM:
Lords and Heros.

Masters and Dreadlords.
The commanders and most likely the generals of an army. Masters are hero level, can take battle standard and can take cold ones, Dark Steeds (fast Cavalry rules), Cold One Chariots, Dark Pegasus, and in some editions Manticores as mounts. Will get into special mounts later, but the Lords also have the option to ride Black Dragons. Depending on the edition they could take or come with light armor. They could instead upgrade to heavy armor, and take sea dragon cloaks (effectively giving your hero or lord the same level of protection as an Empire Knight). They can take repeating crossbows or hand bows (even a brace) shield, hand extra hand weapon, lance if mounted, halberds, or great weapons.

I suspect they will set you back 80 and 140 points respectively, and have the following stats

Unit          Move    WS      BS     S     T    W    I    A     LD
Dreadlord   5         7        6        4     3    3    8    4     10
Master        5         6        6        4     3   2      7   3     9   

No real complaints. A good well rounded option for any army. Depending on the units they are with and monsters riding, act accordingly.



Sorceress (100 points) Supreme Sorceress (maybe 180). The wizards of the game, they got all the main lore's in 8th edition but previously it was Dark Magic (DE specialty lore) Fire, death, Shadows. In the total war games. It will be interesting to see where they take this. Like nearly all wizards, they will have the same stats as a basic trooper, cannot take armor but can take arcane magic items to boost their ability to cast and dispel magic.

I will need to know more of how the magic system works in the new game before I have a definitive answer, so more WILD MASS SPECULATON THAN BEFORE with this thread, and also why do I seem to be the only one doing anything on this army?

If they keep much of the rules that spanned several editions, each wizard should have a Spellcasting level. Each level has that number of spells, often randomly picked via D6, with one basic spell (the number one slot in 6 and 7th edition and the signature spell in 8th) that you can pick if you don't like a spell this game. I do not know if each spell save for the Signature spell can be taken in multiples or just once per army, but there you have it. Until we learn more about wizards and their ability to cast, I don't know if they get Boneses to generating spell dice, casting by their magic level, or what.

However, i do know they tend to be very, very, very, very squishy. Poke em with a pointy stick, they die. THey are also pricy so taking them will eat up a bunch of points you could spend elsewhere so wisely decide how to use em.

 It will also be interesting to see how they handle Miscasts and Irresistible Force.

Like the Masters and Dreadlords, they can ride the same mounts (sans Chariot), which adds to their combat prowess a tad bit, especially if on dragon, but I can see the use of Pegasus as a cheaper option for a mobile spellcaster.



Beatlord/Beastmaster:
I hope they do something with the Beastlord, and give them a decent model. Otherwise we going to spend money on the new Cities of Sigmar hero.

They were a lord choice introduced in 8th edditoon. We had Beastmasters in 6th edditin and ealier, but they were glorified champions that could ride a manticore, cold one, or dark steed, and I hope they do something More if this one comesback.

THey had one less attack then a lord and one less LD, and WS, but they could issiue special comands to their monsters, while tormenting enemy monsters. THey didn't have alot of armor, could be on scourge runner chariots which I completly forgot about, will need to fix later, or on a manticore.

At least they were better thought out than the Fleetmaster.




The Fleetmaster was a lord choice but felt like a hero choice, with the special Hero Lokjire Fellheart (he has the gold squid mask) outclassing this LORD class unit. Stats more on par of a Dreadlord, and more commands befitting a commander of the fleets of the Dark Elf Navy PLEASE



The Assassin: Can be hidden in a unit of infantry, Movement 6, WS and BS of 9, Strength 4, Initiative 10, 3 attacks, and LD 10. They can have an extra hand weapon, sometimes throwing weapons, and when it came to the handbow's introduction, that. They could also take a lot of variety of upgrades depending on the edition from he temple of Khaine. Hopefully this continues as this included a number of poisons that gave poison attacks to really messed with the enemy. Others gave them fear on the charge, killing blow, a 5+ ward save, an Extra D3 attacks. Not bad for 90 points.  They can hide in friendly formations, and they should also have scout, so this means Shades too. Then when you charge or get charge you can choose to have them pop out. I also want an upgrade that forces an enemy character or champion to have to take their challenge as they were made to kill characters. It is their whole design. That said if they have a glaring weakness, no armor and the Killer not a Leader rule will make them unable to share that LD with any unit they join.



Death Hags: A Witch Elf with much of the same states as a Master but better WS and Initiative. THey have frenzy and can take a number of upgrades that are magic items or from the temple of Khaine like the Assassin, and I hope they get a tone back for customizability. They can also be mounted ona  couldron of Khaine which grants bones to those arond it like improving their ability to kill, and protection. Can be taken in units. Can also take a Battle standard. Like witch elves their main weakness is the complete and utter lack of armor, so in a unit or on a couldron which has the level of protection, can be in units, and chariot's impact hits as a Bloodwrack shrine. Now instead of sexy Mudesa and two spear weilding ladies, its a witch elf charecter with two witchelves armored and poison like their on foot counterparts.

ill be interesting to see what mini they use. I have used various Succubus units from Dark Eldar before and thery have some good ones in the Daughters of Khaine book.




We covered Dark steeds earlier, except I forget they were super fast, maybe move 9. Cold Ones are going to be heavy hitters. Dark Pegasus have the same stats as regular ones, but have 1 to strength on the charge as these black stalions have horns they like to impail prey on. Lore says they are very popular amongst the Sorceresses, and for 50 points, will make her a mobile death machine.

Manticores should have the same stats as a Griffon, and come with Terror, Large Target, FLy, and Killing blow. THey also have a magjor anger problem with 8th edition making them have to pass a LD test not to charge anything willy nilly, and if their rider dies they just go into KILL!MAIM!BURN! mode instead of rolling for it. I would like to see if they could also be upgraded with say a 4+ armor save, or some other abilities like was done in Warriors of Chaos last edition. Will wait and see.

If the lore of death stays relatively the same, I can see a Supreme sorceress riding this to get up close and personal, espesialy when you don't have the points left for a dragon. However a ready to rumble beasty needs a lord that is made for combat, so I would prefer the Beastlord or Master/Dreadlord combo.



Black Dragons are dragons and are going to set you back about 300 points because of it.

Most of their stats have a 6 on it save for the 3 in initiative and the 8 in LD. Teror, 4+ scaly skin, fly, they were a charecter unit in and of themselves. Then there is the breath attack. Noxious breath changes slightly eddition to eddition, but I can see a S3 attack that -1 to armor and causes the unit to panic as they are slowly being choked to death.

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