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The General Archive => The Tactica Board => Topic started by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 22, 2013, 01:10:37 PM

Title: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 22, 2013, 01:10:37 PM
Tactical Exposition Game 4:  Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Battle Thread


This Tactical Exposition Game (TEG) is a modification to our popular Tactical Decision Game (TDG).  In this game, forum members can join one of two teams-  Sammay using one off his all-cavalry lists, and Ogres, using either of the lists posted for the planning in TEG2 & TEG3     

We will have several running threads for this TEG:

          --A Battle Thread (this thread) where all the tactical decisions are posted after they are made and where the results are posted for all to see
          --An Empire Tactics discussion thread for those on the Empire team
          --An Ogre Tactics discussion thread for those on the Ogre team
 
This will be our battle thread.  What I need from forum members at this point is to post in here on which team they want to join, then jump right over into your tactics thread and start posting your thoughts on the list you would like to go with.

Once the lists are finalized I will post the results in here and we can get started!

Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: SevenSins on June 22, 2013, 05:15:27 PM
I'll be loyal and stick to Empire!  :biggriin:
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: gray_death01 on June 22, 2013, 06:03:52 PM
As a cavalry guy myself, For the Empire!!
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: librisrouge on June 22, 2013, 09:51:10 PM
Need Cav experience. Team Empire!
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Forumite on June 22, 2013, 10:39:39 PM
I´m interested in building my own cavalry-focused army, so I´m joining the Empire Team this time.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 23, 2013, 12:11:00 AM
The Empire team is getting stacked-  need some Ogre-ites!
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: mrth0msen on June 23, 2013, 12:17:33 AM
I need canned meat - pwngre team here!
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: grifter on June 23, 2013, 10:01:04 AM
I´ll join the Ogres if that´s alright.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on June 23, 2013, 10:04:12 PM
Whohoo! Empire vs. Ogres. I'll play Ogres!

 :blush:
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on June 23, 2013, 11:56:54 PM
Another Ogre here...
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 24, 2013, 01:27:15 AM
Another Ogre here...

Interested in being the General?  The spot is still open, and based on your TEG/TDG input, I think you would be perfect for it.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on June 24, 2013, 03:30:18 AM
Another Ogre here...

Interested in being the General?  The spot is still open, and based on your TEG/TDG input, I think you would be perfect for it.

Possibly, lets see what input the other Ogre players have....and see if there is someone who wants it, otherwise I can step up if needed.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on June 24, 2013, 11:34:41 PM
Putting the call out to the Ogre general's....input needed on list composition.

Also to the Empire generals....is there any sort of list that you'd prefer to test the cav army against....I don't see the point in tuning a list to beat cav, unless that's the test you want....or you're tuning to beat the ogres yourselves :)
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on June 25, 2013, 12:02:25 AM
We are only mildly tuning - tweaking a few points of magic items. What you'll see will look an awful lot like other MSU lists I've posted here. It is definitely fair to say it's an all-comers list.

I'd suggest that you do the same. Build an all-comers list and tweak a bit for cav. That sounds fine to me as this is an excellent match up between, IMHO, two nicely balanced armies.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on June 25, 2013, 12:14:51 AM
No worries
My list are usually a little different to the norm, but typically are all comers.
We have one list HHG proposed that I think may be too harsh a test for an empire cav list, though its still a reasonable all comers list in the current high armour save meta :) ....will see where we end up, currently only 2 of us are discussing lists.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on June 25, 2013, 01:11:45 AM
Is it the double ironblaster list with Gutstar, maneaters with poison pistols, and bulls? If so, I posted that list  :-D

Or is it the shooty list?

I'm happy to face either, just so you know.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on June 25, 2013, 01:56:05 AM
No worries mate....they are the 2 posted by HHG.
I have proposed something a bit different too, which is clost to a list I'll be running in a upcoming tourney....if I get little feedback form the Ogre side I will probably run my list as I know how to use it, though it may not represent what a normal tourney Ogre list looks like.

@HHG
How long until you want to kick this one off?
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 25, 2013, 02:25:59 AM
@HHG
How long until you want to kick this one off?

As soon as the lists are decided on we are cleared hot.

Need some more team members on the Ogre side however. 

Worst case, I can join that side, but I am trying to stay off a team so I can help facilitate the whole thing.

Still a lot of TDG/TEG regulars that haven't chimed in yet...
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: rothgar13 on June 25, 2013, 08:10:33 PM
I was actually planning to sit back and watch this time around, but if there's a real need for Ogre players, I can chime in on that side. I'll have some list suggestions as well.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on June 25, 2013, 08:37:39 PM
I thought I posted here already......Noght and Zifnab are temporarily banned from the forum so if you want to wait for them I think it will take a couple of more days.

Hmmm....I wanted to take a backseat too.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 25, 2013, 09:47:43 PM
I thought I posted here already......Noght and Zifnab are temporarily banned from the forum so if you want to wait for them I think it will take a couple of more days.

Hmmm....I wanted to take a backseat too.

Ouch.

Well-  the good news is that people can join a team whenever they want. 

We just need a little bit more love on the Ogre team before we get really serious about kicking this off.

I am going to post a list modification over there in a second to see what they think.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: TCWarroom on June 26, 2013, 05:08:59 PM
Ill Ogre up! Its my second army so I might as well join.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 28, 2013, 09:27:55 PM
The teams as they are shaped up so far:

Team Empire (Give me a unique name for your list/team):

Sammay-  General
Sevensins
Forumite
Librisrouge
Greydeath
Voltan

Team Ogre  (Give me a unique name for your list/team):

George (General)
Krokz
mrO
Aineias
Rothgar
TCWarroom


The lists:

Quote
EMPIRE

Lords
Battle Wizard Lord, Lvl 4 (Gen), Steed, Dispel Scroll, Talis of Pres (Lore of Heavens)

Heroes
Speculum Captasus (Lance, FPA, Peg)
      Enchanted Shield
      Van Horstman's Speculum
      Luckstone

Dawnstone Captasus (Lance, Shield, FPA, Peg)
      Helm of the Skavenslayer
      Dawnstone

Anti-Fire Captasus (FPA, Peg)
      Sword of Might
      Charmed Shield
     
Core
2x5 Knights, Musician

3x6 Knights, Musician

Special
3x3 Demigryphs, Banner, Musician

Rare
2xSteam Tank

Total:  2500 pts

Quote
OGRES

Lords
Slaughtermaster (Gen), Fencer's Blades, Glittering Scales, Greedy Fist, L4 Wizard [Lore of the Great Maw]

Heroes
Bruiser, BSB, Heavy Armor, Ironfist, Talisman of Preservation, Warrior Bane
Firebelly, Dispel Scroll, Great Weapon, Ironcurse Icon [Lore of Fire]
Firebelly, Great Weapon, Hellheart [Lore of Fire]

Core
2 x 10 Gnoblars, Trappers
7 Ironguts, Full Command (Look-Out Gnoblar)
7 Ironguts, Full Command (Look-Out Gnoblar, Standard of Discipline)

Special
5 Mournfang Cavalry, Heavy Armor, Ironfists, Musician, Standard-Bearer (Dragonhide Banner)
2 x Sabretusk

Rare
2 x Ironblaster

Total: 2500 points

Here is what the terrain looks like:


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG4Terrain_zps0182ce2b.jpg)



The battle is in the mountains-  a Empire cavalry scouting mission runs into an Ogre stronghold and they meet on the field of battle.

There are two hills on the map-  both Scree Slopes.  The obstacles are walls.  Last, is an Elven Waystone in the west.  Pretty straightforward.


-------------------------------------------------

I rolled the Scenario and it is a Pitched Battle.

Ogres win the roll to choose sides.

Time to get this party started.
 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on June 29, 2013, 02:55:22 PM
Nice list, Ogres. Very nice! This is gonna be a good match up.

Since we cannot shake hands and wish each other good luck, I offer you this:

 :::cheers:::

Lets have some fun and learn some stuff.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: commandant on June 29, 2013, 03:06:28 PM
The battle is in the mountains-  a Empire cavalry scouting mission runs into an Ogre stronghold and they meet on the field of battle.

The empire is using 1/4 of their tanks on a scouting mission?

Is is not more likely that the Ogres are descending on an Knightly Order chapter house or something.   Though I agree that the Empire list make the fluff really difficult.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on June 30, 2013, 12:30:15 AM
Negotiations to prevent bloodshed were unsurprisingly unsuccessful....

(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/warlordsteve/IMG_2409_zpsc55516d9.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/warlordsteve/media/IMG_2409_zpsc55516d9.jpg.html)


Good luck Sammy and co, this will be quite an interesting battle  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 30, 2013, 12:33:05 AM
The battle is in the mountains-  a Empire cavalry scouting mission runs into an Ogre stronghold and they meet on the field of battle.

The empire is using 1/4 of their tanks on a scouting mission?

Is is not more likely that the Ogres are descending on an Knightly Order chapter house or something.   Though I agree that the Empire list make the fluff really difficult.

They found a couple of extra metal hunks in an abandoned warehouse....
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 30, 2013, 01:23:32 AM
Spell choices ended up being:

EMPIRE
Harmonic convergence
Iceshard blizzard
Curse of Midnight Winds
Chain Lightning


OGRE
2x Fireball for Firebellies

Spinemarrow (Stubborn)
Bullgorger (+1 Str)
Braingobbler (force Panic test)
Trollguts (Regen)


Ogres gave me two drops.  Empire-  discuss in your thread what two drops you want and where.


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG4Deploy1_zps3e7b526f.jpg)
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on June 30, 2013, 06:07:39 PM
Here is where things sit at the moment.  Empire is up again.


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG4Deploy3_zps0ceb287e.jpg)
[/quote]
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on July 01, 2013, 10:30:14 AM
I realized doing this TEG that since I am looking and posting in both Tactical threads I don't need to post updates here if I post them there.

This will be our trash-talking spot from now for both teams.  Otherwise, stay tuned to your own armies thread!

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: SevenSins on July 01, 2013, 04:35:02 PM
In that case lets start some trash talk!

The slaughtermasters mamma is so ugly, the great maw wouldn't eat her until they'd rolled her in ketchup!
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Cursain on July 02, 2013, 08:16:08 PM
Why is there so little terrain on the board?  Shouldn't there have been D6+4 random pieces?

Wade
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: rothgar13 on July 02, 2013, 08:50:20 PM
From the looks of it, HHG rolled a 1 on that D6+4.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on July 02, 2013, 09:22:22 PM
From the looks of it, HHG rolled a 1 on that D6+4.

Affirmative.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 04, 2013, 04:56:01 AM
In that case lets start some trash talk!

The slaughtermasters mamma is so ugly, the great maw wouldn't eat her until they'd rolled her in ketchup!

So hows the empire deployment coming along....our firebellies are itching to warm up the tins of food before we eat   ::heretic::
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on July 04, 2013, 02:35:24 PM
Question for the group-

When running open lists, does your opponent have the right to know which similar models have what when you place them on the table?

For instance, if you had two Warrior Priests with different kits, would they know which ones are which?  Or even in an open match, this could be held secret until it was revealed during the game?

How have you all played it?

Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 04, 2013, 09:37:42 PM
In tournies in Aus I have always been clear with opponents which model has which kit.
I was actually going to ask which Captasus was which.
That said if most people hide that info I have no issue playing that way. Russion roulette with cannons looking for the charmed shield :)
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 04, 2013, 09:45:14 PM
In tournies in Aus I have always been clear with opponents which model has which kit.
I was actually going to ask which Captasus was which.
That said if most people hide that info I have no issue playing that way. Russion roulette with cannons looking for the charmed shield :)

George has hit upon why I like to have open lists, but then keep the identity and kit of similar characters hidden. If we have three Captasi, one of whom bears the charmed shield, I want to that to be a part of the OK calculations in whether or not to attempt those shots.

In friendly games, I play with open lists but hidden kit.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Krokz on July 05, 2013, 09:25:14 AM
I've never heard of hidden kit.  Here on tourneys if its open its open, if its closed its closed. No half way.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 08, 2013, 12:12:23 PM
I know this thread is supposedly for talking smack but I have to say:

Nice turn 2 George and OK generals. Smart choices combined with some nice dice have put us in a tough spot. Bravo! If you drop the tank this round, we're in a lot of trouble.

Not that we won't still try to salvage what we can :)
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 08, 2013, 09:21:26 PM
Cheers....I stretched the elastic on the dice log with my rolls, but it sprung back in the STank combat.  :)

I'll be interested to see how you respond
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 09, 2013, 05:14:50 AM
Nice charge with the Demis into....I didn't see that one coming  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 09, 2013, 12:16:11 PM
Doin my best to keep you on your toes :) Regardless of outcome, this has already been a great game.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 09, 2013, 11:49:54 PM
It certainly has been....here's hoping I can crack the tank this turn!
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 10, 2013, 12:24:34 AM
Great move with the Mournfangs. I was afraid you'd do that and tried to block you from hitting the DGs with all five of the MFs. We'll see how it goes...
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 10, 2013, 11:36:55 PM
Looks like we wasted our points on the hell heart and dispel scroll...your mage was keen to not let us interact....Unlucky.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 10, 2013, 11:41:53 PM
Played Ogres enough to know to stay as far away as possible.

That's one very nice thing about Heavens: lots of long range spells.

Now we just have to see if losing the wizard to my own spellcasting was worth it. It's the right gamble, but a gamble nonetheless.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 10, 2013, 11:47:46 PM
Yeah, I'd figure 5 or 6 dice was right....and you could afford most miscast results....but dice happen, especially with this dice log! I'm starting to gamble on either good or bad rolls as the average ones don't happen :)
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 10, 2013, 11:56:16 PM
Seriously, the dice really do seem wonky. It'd be interesting to do a TEG with dice, instead of a random number generator.

You've played a great game so far, even with the dice. I've spent a lot of time puzzling over BC to figure out how to respond.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 11, 2013, 12:10:33 AM
Cheers...just wait until you see what I have planned for next turn ;)

I am impressed by what in how you have been able to respond too...I think my back will soon be against the wall soon.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on July 11, 2013, 01:46:34 AM
Seriously, the dice really do seem wonky. It'd be interesting to do a TEG with dice, instead of a random number generator.

You've played a great game so far, even with the dice. I've spent a lot of time puzzling over BC to figure out how to respond.

Sometimes the Dicelog seems normal...and then sometimes it seems that numbers roll in batches of high or low.  Not sure what kind of algorithm they use...but sometimes it just seems "off."

I started the TDGs rolling dice but when dice rolls seemed too good or too bad people would complain about the dice.  Strange how psychologically it is easier for us to accept that a program did it instead of a human being.... 

Dicelog does give a perfect record of what happened, which is nice if I make a mistake and have to go back and adjust, but unless I actually post a Dicelog thread the only two that are usually in it are me and Noght (Noght being the one who introduced it to me!)

I think for the next TEG I might go back to rolling some real bones.  If it isn't too much work, I might just take snapshots from my phone for recording/archive purposes.

After this TEG, we will see what the forum wants to do.  Majority rules.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Noght on July 11, 2013, 02:11:46 AM
Dicelog does give a perfect record of what happened, which is nice if I make a mistake and have to go back and adjust, but unless I actually post a Dicelog thread the only two that are usually in it are me and Noght (Noght being the one who introduced it to me!)
 

Just an effort for transparency is all.  I do agree that occassionally it feels very "clumpy" but I wanted an outside entity in charge of random number generation.  (Because my default postion is to make it as hard as possible on the Empire to see if it can overcome the stress of "poor" dice, feels very resiliant depending on the List).

I'm actually thinking about trying it for a live game with a buddy to see how it goes.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Cursain on July 11, 2013, 02:19:57 AM
If you guys rolled one dice at a time I could easily compile the results of 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's and 6's.  Then we'd know for sure how "random" the dice generator is.  I checked one of the dice logs and when you do rolls where you add 2+ dice together and sum the total, it's hard to quickly determine what actual numbers were rolled.  If you rolled them one at a time I could compile the stats in a matter of minutes.

I agree with some of the peoples assessments.  The 'randomness' seems a bit off.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 11, 2013, 02:23:21 AM
@Noght - Totally appreciate the importance of handling clumpy dice. I've lost my Lvl 4 in a lot of games, casting on 3 dice. Being able to rally from that and still have a battle plan is excellent experience.

Again, it's what I love about having so many units. Chance can be clumpy, but when you have enough units you can ride that out.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on July 11, 2013, 02:39:56 AM
@Cursain-  I pulled the numbers off the Dicelog and am going to put them into a format with just the numbers so you can crunch them.  It will take me a day or two.

My guess is that with the over 380 rolls in the game so far with probably 500+ total dice rolled the random generation will come out statistically on average.

The harder thing to determine is if the clumps of good and bad dice rolls are just as average...or if are they abnormal.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Cursain on July 11, 2013, 02:47:36 AM
@Cursain-  I pulled the numbers off the Dicelog and am going to put them into a format with just the numbers so you can crunch them.  It will take me a day or two.

My guess is that with the over 380 rolls in the game so far with probably 500+ total dice rolled the random generation will come out statistically on average.

The harder thing to determine is if the clumps of good and bad dice rolls are just as average...or if are they abnormal.

That's what I'm afraid of HHG.  I've played a lot of blood bowl online, and the "randomness" of the computer generated dice doesn't match up with my experiences hosting a once-a-month league at my house.

I think some of these random dice generators load a bunch of pre-rolled numbers, and then "randomly" pull from the pool.

Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: zifnab0 on July 11, 2013, 11:49:10 AM
Ogres lose by 5.  The Mournfangs fail the first Break test and fail the second…

I'm curious, how would the combat have gone without Convergence?  I'd guess 4 or 5 wounds on the Mournfang, giving Empire +4, maybe +3 if the Demis failed and rerolled an armor save.

I've never been a fan of Convergence and Curse (or Heavens in general).  It seems that rerolling 1s is really not much of a boost.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 11, 2013, 12:01:28 PM
Ogres lose by 5.  The Mournfangs fail the first Break test and fail the second…

I'm curious, how would the combat have gone without Convergence?  I'd guess 4 or 5 wounds on the Mournfang, giving Empire +4, maybe +3 if the Demis failed and rerolled an armor save.

I've never been a fan of Convergence and Curse (or Heavens in general).  It seems that rerolling 1s is really not much of a boost.

Well, we would have done one or two fewer wounds and, as HHG noted, we would have taken 2 more. So ,we'd have won by 2-3, which is a very big difference, as you know.

The value of re-rolling 1s is dependent on other factors. If you're trying to hit a 5+, for example, it's not that great. If you're going for a 3+, then the likelihood of successfully re-rolling 1s as 3+ is quite good, as was the case for our armor saves.

In particular, against S4 Ogres, Convergence makes a 1+ AS virtually invulnerable.

Again, I think it really depends, but for cavalry who often only fail armor saves on a 1 and have high S attacks that are frequently hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s, it's an extremely powerful spell with a very low casting cost.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: zifnab0 on July 11, 2013, 12:42:04 PM
The value of re-rolling 1s is dependent on other factors. If you're trying to hit a 5+, for example, it's not that great. If you're going for a 3+, then the likelihood of successfully re-rolling 1s as 3+ is quite good, as was the case for our armor saves.

If you're trying to hit on 5+, then out of 36 attacks you would hit 12 times, rerolling 6 dice.  Of those 6, 2 would succeed.  Instead of 12 hits you would have 14 hits, or a 16% improvement.

If you're trying to hit on 3+, then out of 36 attacks you would hit 24 times, rerolling 6 dice.  Of those 6, 4 would succeed.  Instead of 24 hits you would have 28 hits, or a 16% improvement.

No matter your target, rerolling 1s will always only give you a 16% improvement.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on July 11, 2013, 12:46:32 PM
Statistically yes but in reality you can safe your skin if you botch a roll and have lots of ones in the first roll.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 11, 2013, 02:24:07 PM
The value of re-rolling 1s is dependent on other factors. If you're trying to hit a 5+, for example, it's not that great. If you're going for a 3+, then the likelihood of successfully re-rolling 1s as 3+ is quite good, as was the case for our armor saves.

If you're trying to hit on 5+, then out of 36 attacks you would hit 12 times, rerolling 6 dice.  Of those 6, 2 would succeed.  Instead of 12 hits you would have 14 hits, or a 16% improvement.

If you're trying to hit on 3+, then out of 36 attacks you would hit 24 times, rerolling 6 dice.  Of those 6, 4 would succeed.  Instead of 24 hits you would have 28 hits, or a 16% improvement.

No matter your target, rerolling 1s will always only give you a 16% improvement.

Yes. All completely true. Yes, it's still 16% because you've doubled the number of pre-re-roll hits by going from 5+ to 3+. If you calculated it as the number of re-rolled hits relative to the total attacks, however, you would note that Convergence nets you 5.5% for the 5+ vs 11% for the 3+.

It's all a matter of perspective. Same thing holds for re-rolling 6s. Very useful if your opponent is hitting or wounding on 5s or 6s. Not nearly so much if they're hitting on 3s.

At a casting cost of 7 for HC, I think it's well worth it. HHG can go back and review the actual combat numbers, but just based on his report about the armor saves, in this case the MFs would have been testing on a re-rollable 6, instead of 4. You well know that's a big difference. 
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on July 11, 2013, 06:38:02 PM
HHG can go back and review the actual combat numbers

Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't.  For me, just the possibility of a reroll is solid.  Factor in possible rerolls on three different types of dice rolls and it can swing battles when you roll poorly, as Fandir pointed out.

It had no effect in the second round of combat.  The Demis got to reroll 1 die but failed on it too.

But in the first round of combat, HC caused an extra wound and saved two.  For Combat Resolution, that meant the difference between a 4 or 7 rerollable Break test.  The Fangs failed on 6 & 7 respectively.  HC was a game-changer in this specific case.

 :::cheers:::
HHG

Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 11, 2013, 09:21:34 PM
@Sammy
Looks like this game is nearly done, I have one more trick up my sleeve, but I think the massive impact hits drom the STank when it makes combat will spell the end.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 11, 2013, 09:25:01 PM
Yeah. If we were in a tourney, I'd just avoid you for the rest of the game, after mopping up the STank.

But we can't leave Ogres alive on a Warhammer-Empire forum.

It just wouldn't be fitting :)

Again, a wonderfully played game. If your MFs had overrun, that combat could have gone differently. At the least, they probably wouldn't have broken.

One more trick, eh? I can't, for the life of me, think what it could be... which has me concerned  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 12, 2013, 12:35:41 AM
Well my last trick was talking you into charging with the STank and having it blow itself up :)
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 12, 2013, 01:12:00 AM
HAHAHA! Fair enough. Quite durable, those steam tanks. An important, nay, vital part of the all-cav list. That's our staying power.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on July 12, 2013, 01:12:15 AM
So... post your after action comments here.

This was a well-played battle by both sides.

Besides luck/dice, what were the key tactical moves or moments?

What could have been done different/better?

I can tell you from my perspective I gained a new appreciation for Empire Cavalry MSU-style.  I am interested in your thoughts.

Once we have taken a little break, downed some beers either in sorrow or victory, I think Fandir needs to finally come out and play with his High Elves for TEG5.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Noght on July 12, 2013, 01:15:06 AM
Once we have taken a little break, downed some beers either in sorrow or victory, I think Fandir needs to finally come out and play with his High Elves for TEG5.

+1 to Fandir's High Elves.  I'd bring Wood Elves late summer (mid to late August) if the Empire leaves the all 1+ AS stuff at home.   :icon_wink:
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 12, 2013, 02:00:56 AM
Things that didn't work:

Well, for my part, I once again managed to bog myself down with unit congestion on the left side of the battlefield. I continue to struggle with that.

It was also hard to get those units farthest from the Ogres' battle line into effective range. I have to think harder about how to deploy to face a refused flank. (although, reviewing your log, it's clear that you weren't positive you'd be doing a refused flank in the first place...)

Things that worked:

The Captasi performed their roles perfectly - tying up the Ironblasters and limiting the Ogres' ability to fight a ranged castle and make us come to them. I was bummed not to break any of the basters on charges early. That would have freed up a CAptasus to harass other units from behind. But all in all I think they did great.

I regret giving our opponents the 250 points for our lvl4, but stand by the choice. It was absolutely the right risk to take. This is where high S high AS units really shine. 3DGs don't have a ton of attacks, but they hit hard and take very little damage in return, especially when buffed with something like Harmonic Convergence.

The two DG charges were the vital turns in the game, and we got off enough magic to make them work. There was a lot of debate about the merits of Harmonic Convergence, but I stand by its usefulness for this list. We could have failed to break either the IG unit or the MFs but had the odds in our favor. Usually I prefer to make multi-charges, but our opponents really forced the issue and there was no time to set up for them.




Hats off, again, to George and the other Ogre generals. Had you realized that you offered a flank charge in T2, and moved the Guts or Firebelly a little bit, this would have been a very different game, I think.


My only regret is that we couldn't all meet up for a pint afterwards. A really great experience!

 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 12, 2013, 02:24:38 AM
Of all the unlucky dice out there the key failed roll for was the gnobs failed march tests in turn 2 (great empire unit positioning to force those).
i had wanted to gnobs 1" from the knight units to make the most of Sammy's bottled up flank, that would have bought the time roll the other side.

The key mistake I obviously made was not seeing the Demi charge coming through...the way it played out I threw away the firebelly for no real gain, with him out of the unit the lack of steadfast became an issue.

I mentioned it in the Ogre thread, but keeping the gnobs in general range would have made them perform far better than they did....though they still were probably MVPs....did you see how knights they brought down!
If we had decided on a plan and stuck to it I think we would have been able to control the Ld bubble better, but if anyone was going lose out to indecision it was always going to be the gnobs.

Other than that I don't think I'd do much different....perhaps buy a new box of dice...though perhaps Sammy could do with some too :)

I am still a bit on the fence about the MSU list after this. I loved the 3 Captasus and how they worked, but other than that I really only fought 2 Demi unit a STank and some chaff....a slightly more rounded list might still have got a similar result. I am certainly willing to give it a shot myself though and see it from that side of the board. It didn't feel too intimidating from my side, but mainly as I had enough chaff to help me pick my way through it.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: gray_death01 on July 12, 2013, 03:49:29 AM
Congrats to both sides for a well fought out game. And congrats to the dicelog for chucking mathhammer out the window.
Medal ceremony for the survivors will be at 0800...make sure that armor is nice and shiny !
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Crucious on July 12, 2013, 08:34:49 AM
Thanks all. This was sooo much fun to read through. GO EMPIRE!
It gave me the perfect reason to procrastinate abit here at work  :icon_lol:
Can't wait for the next one.

Procrastinators unite..... tomorrow.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 12, 2013, 01:36:39 PM
George, any suggestions regarding what would have made the Empire list scarier?
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: George on July 12, 2013, 01:50:51 PM
George, any suggestions regarding what would have made the Empire list scarier?

I'm not sure it need to look scarier....for a lot of armies 2 STanks plus a lot of 1+AS would be scary.
Its just he Ogre list had the right tools to deal with everythign...chaff to block up, Ironblasters for the STanks and GWs everywhere for dealing with armour.

I would be tempted to up the units of Demis to 4, but otherwise you do achieve what you want which is a mobile army that can lose any part and still work. The main thing for you will be getting the movement sorted out.
Though a couple of small Reiksgaurd could make people pause as they can't gaurantee to punch through the unit in 1 round like the nilla knights due to the stubborn
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on July 12, 2013, 03:22:51 PM
Well done everyone! Another great TDG and yes I am ready with my High Elves...a list has been made together with Rothgar and will open a can of whoopass on the Empire.

Bring it on Codpieces
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on July 13, 2013, 02:28:50 PM
Well done everyone! Another great TDG and yes I am ready with my High Elves...a list has been made together with Rothgar and will open a can of whoopass on the Empire.

Bring it on Codpieces

Awesome, lets wait a week or so before we start cranking this up in earnest.

Once you are Rothgar have finalized your list could you PM it to me?

I plan to start TEG5 with an Empire team thread looking for people to posts lists they have been itching to try out.

--------------------------------------------

@Sammay-  I started playing around with list possibilities using your idea of Empire Cavlary MSU.  I tried one out and easily beat my opponent.  One thing I did differently was use all 5 man Knight units with a Musician and Champ.  The Champ gives you the same amount of attacks as your 6 Knight block but is cheaper.  It also helps in challenging nasty characters and reducing your death count.

Also-  since one of my main opponents is currently in love with Regeneration, I added the Flaming Banner on one group of Demis to give me flexibility in hitting those types of units.  I also added a Lvl2 Fire Wizard to give me some ranged Flaming and some extra magic options.  You had several turns where you couldn't use Powerdice because you only had 1 mage.

You are obviously perfecting the use of the Cav MSU and are highly skilled in it.  One piece of advice I have for you to avoid bunching up is purposely put a little distance in your waves.  We naturally become fixated on units when we are looking at a battlefield but the space in between units is just as important, especially for your army.  One example I can give is the Knights and Demi you pushed up in the center of the board.  The Demis were up tight on the Knights butts-  if the Ogres had charged the Knights you were situated perfectly, but the Ogres saw they could bunch you and got in your face.  If the Demis were back just a little bit so they had space to wheel in both directions the Ogres may not have gone this route.

I appreciate the time you spent on the All Cav Tactica.  It has made the Tactica Forum better!

@George-  I know you were a pitch-hitter for the Ogre team's list, but you played them like a veteran.  I appreciate the time you spent on the TEG. 

To close, watching you and Sammay go toe-to-toe was a sight to behold.  Great battle to watch!  Thanks again.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: sammay23 on July 13, 2013, 04:11:01 PM
HHG, so glad you've started trying out the list!

I agree about the champ adding some flexibility and keeping punch for a few less points. I'm aesthetically in love with those 3x2 knight darts :)

I keep thinking about adding a flaming banner. I used to have it on one of my DG units, but then decided that I wanted as many bare-bones units as possible. I'm reconsidering for a tourney I have next week. No shortage of regeneration there.

And I've added a 4th Captasus :) so no room for a fire mage  ::heretic::

Ah, movement. Yes, usually I try to play in waves, with Captasi and small knights moving out first, clearing chaff, and then turning to assist turn 3-4 charges from the DGs. In the game against George, I really got myself tangled in my rush to get all three DG units close enough to engage in multi-charges (which never happened). It was really the Mournfangs that pushed me to get all jumbled. I knew that I needed two units of DGs if I was going to beat them in a frontal charge. With only one small unit of knights to redirect, I rushed a bit.

Movement is DEFINITELY my biggest hurdle to using this list effectively. Sometimes I really nail it, and things work like a well-oiled machine. And then sometimes I epically fail ;) 
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Calisson on July 13, 2013, 05:21:31 PM
About units of 5 & champ vs. 6,
a great difference is to be able to place one occasional character among the 6 and get protection against shooting & spells, instead of having the champ spoiling the "look out, Sir".

Plus 6 are sturdier than 5 anywhere but in melee.
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on August 02, 2013, 10:01:29 PM
I am going on a vacation the next two weeks but plan to crank up the next TEG when I get back.

Start thinking about whether you want to take Sammay's list for another run or try out something different.

Still waiting to see Fandir & Rothgar's new High Elf proposal...

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Noght on August 03, 2013, 01:07:56 AM
I am going on a vacation the next two weeks but plan to crank up the next TEG when I get back.

Start thinking about whether you want to take Sammay's list for another run or try out something different.

Still waiting to see Fandir & Rothgar's new High Elf proposal...

 :::cheers:::
HHG

Take a balanced list, say a tweaked Griffon.  Heck a modified Gunline would punish the High Elves, it's still the safest strategy.

Or take an all-comers list and see what happens....
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on August 03, 2013, 02:08:53 AM
Take a balanced list, say a tweaked Griffon.  Heck a modified Gunline would punish the High Elves, it's still the safest strategy.

My current Griffon list now has 2 cannons...   8-)

But I was going to save it for a possible future showdown with Rothgar and Chaos....
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: rothgar13 on August 03, 2013, 02:51:22 PM
I've sent a message to Fandir asking if he wants to make any tweaks to the list we previously wrote up. We should have a list for the Empire to square off against soon. :::cheers:::

Also, in the interest of variety, I propose we delay our Griffon v. WoC showdown in an effort to showcase a more rarely seen army - my Beastmen would love to have a go at it, and I'd bet that not that many people get to see that sort of army. What do you say, HHG? :icon_wink:
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on August 03, 2013, 03:22:25 PM
I've sent a message to Fandir asking if he wants to make any tweaks to the list we previously wrote up. We should have a list for the Empire to square off against soon.

Fandir PM'd me that list you have been tweaking.

Early next week I will create 2 threads-  one for Empire to figure out what they want to do for a list and another High Elf one so you can post your list and gain some team members.

That way, when I get back from my vacation, we can be ready to start the TEG on the Aug 17th weekend.

Also, in the interest of variety, I propose we delay our Griffon v. WoC showdown in an effort to showcase a more rarely seen army - my Beastmen would love to have a go at it, and I'd bet that not that many people get to see that sort of army. What do you say, HHG? :icon_wink:

No rush on showdown.

Yeah-  I would love to see you put your Beastmen into action for TEG6.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Rowly on August 03, 2013, 08:40:46 PM
I'd like to second a vote for Beastmen :)
Title: Re: TEG4: Battle Thread Empire Cavalry versus Ogres 2500
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on August 04, 2013, 12:36:02 PM
Okay Forum-  two Tactical Threads have been started for TEG5.

One thread is for members who want to join the Empire team, the other for High Elf traitors!

Join one or the other and get involved!
HHG