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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: Warlord on April 24, 2012, 02:45:56 AM

Title: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Warlord on April 24, 2012, 02:45:56 AM
So what does the new, classic 8th edition Empire army look like?

We have been discussing effectiveness of unit x, overcosting of unit y, but people are still grappling at how to put it all together to make an army. Keep in mind, this is intended to be a discussion on what units could come together to form a cohesive army, and not so much about which unit is most effective - we have plenty of threads already running about that.

So lets have a quick list of unit choices and their effectiveness (ignoring Special Characters):

LORDS
General - cheap L9 in units, or great on a Griffon
Arch Lector - with CoC can double as both General & WP in a unit, WA gives good AOE buffs (however many WPs may be cheaper)
Grand Master - only really any good with Runefang & OTS
Wizard Lord - cheap, must take even just as magic defense

HEROS
Captain - always take one as BSB, useful in units, useful on pegasus
Warrior Priest - cheap buff character, useful in all types of units, spam has potential
Wizard - cheap, must take, good offense / defense
Engineer - only useful on a helblaster, arguably an expensive combo
Witch Hunter - not very useful, perhaps useful in a second rank with MoH

CORE
Halberdiers - Still great as a Horde and detachment
Swordsmen - expensive, WS4 is only benefit, halberds are probably more useful
Spearmen - cheap bus unit
Free Company - overpriced, anything they can do, halberds do better

Crossbowmen - too expensive, outriders are a better choice for the points
Handgunners - too expensive, outriders are a better choice for the points
Archers - cheap screening unit, good redirectors,

Knights - cheap flanker
IC Knights - cheap strong flanker, consider with GW

SPECIAL
Greatswords - bunker unit for characters, bestows stubborn on detachments, expensive but useful as a horde, small autonomous flank unit
Flagellants - benefits most from war altar buffs, people liked a horde of them before will still like them

Reiksguard - useful flanker / tarpit
Demigryph Knights - strongest unit for cost, should see at least 1 unit of these in any competitive list

Pistoliers - expensive and situational
Outriders - besides from archers, only viable small arms fire, decent on a flank or behind lines
Huntsmen - cheap, good disrupters

Cannon - despite point increase, still must take
Mortar - too expensive, not strong enough, situation - must take against skaven or elves only.

RARE
Helblaster - reliable, good for killing knights and monster units
Helstorm - not very reliable, situational, decent against skaven

Luminark - useful for a defensive army
Hurricanum - useful for an offensive army

Steam Tank - reliable, all rounder - can shoot, charge and tarpit.


Now lets consider how they all fit together.

THE 8TH EDITION RECIPE

Here is my interpretation:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42145.0 (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42145.0)

Obviously people will make adjustments to their own preference, but surely this is pretty much what an optomised 8th edition Empire army would roughly look like.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Clymer on April 24, 2012, 04:23:05 AM
I think that's a really reliable build and going to be very common for sure. I think the gypsy caravans may be touch and go... I'm still very skeptical of them and am holding a spot on my shelf for them next to my Thundertusk just in case. But I'll be the first to be happily surprised if I'm wrong. In any case, I think you'll see players juggling between them and other support choices.

I do think that you will also see some viable cav based lists too. Either a medium unit and some core infantry, or a large unit plus demigryphs and elite infantry.

So far the only absolute must haves that I see in our book are Warrior Priests, Cannons, perhaps the steam tank, and the perennial level 4 and BSB. Otherwise I think it's mostly up for grabs and I expect to see a lot of diversity, although I agree that what you listed above will be among the most common builds.

I think a lot of people will take spearmen, the same way that most people take goblins. They'll do almost nothing in most games, get completely hosed in some, but just often enough they will do something amazing enough that they confirm the owning players bias that spearmen are actually any good. Said player, if he works very hard, will find himself in the bottom of the top third at tournaments, always wondering why they never place any higher.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: pippin_nl on April 24, 2012, 05:03:52 AM
Many players wish to spam pidgeoneers and do not agre with:

Engineer - only useful on a helblaster, arguably an expensive combo

I am not convinced either way. Also I am not convinced about the blastineer, 6-12 S5 hits is not very strong versus hordes, you might kill about 5 bloodletters for instance
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: StealthKnightSteg on April 24, 2012, 10:22:29 AM
I take Swordsmen and Free Company Militia both as detachments. Swordsmen at 10 or 15 to hold their own in a first round of combat to allow flanking to take place next turn. And FCM of 10 as chaff, speed bump and an extra target to screen my regimental unit.. let them take the pain nstead of the halberdiers that I want to survive a round or 2 longer.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Uryens de Crux on April 24, 2012, 10:27:05 AM
My army will look almost exactly the same as it did in 6th ed, and 7th ed and now 8th ed, barring a couple of tweaks for points and missing magic item (I am still mourning the loss of the Sword of Sigismund)
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 24, 2012, 10:28:07 AM
Take the sword of ASF and a potion of strength you seldon need that one round of I kick ass this turn and re rolls to hit is a nice addition for 45 points.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Uryens de Crux on April 24, 2012, 11:13:55 AM
Its not the same  :icon_cry:
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: The Ol Perfesser on April 24, 2012, 11:17:53 AM
Thanks Warlord for this nice synopsis.   :::cheers:::

I have not yet played a game using the new 8ed army book rules, but I hope to very soon.  I really hope that the Steam Tank/Demigryph Knight combo turns out to be as effective as I think it can be.

The HBVG + Engineer combo seems like a natural to me...but perhaps two HBVGs without an engineer would be better and more cost effective?

Normally I would always take 2 cannons, but with the increased reliability of the STANK, I am now tempted to just take one.

 
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 24, 2012, 11:18:42 AM
@ Uryens
Yes...it is better.

@ Olperfesser

2 HBVG > 1 HBVG+ Engineer and only slightly higher in costs.

Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Finlay on April 24, 2012, 11:22:25 AM
I think a lot of people will switch to one cannon, and use the stanks cannon as a fall back.

I'm not sure that a lord character other than a wizard is vital. Perhaps a Lector with the CoC so you need one less WP.

level 4 wizard
BSB
some warrior priests

Halberdier horde

Cannon
Demigryph knights

Stank.


I think that is the "basic" template I would build around (unless I was doing all mounted)
I wonder if a unit of 10 Ic knights will become standard now too.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 24, 2012, 11:23:39 AM
If not 10 than 6 IC knights are very good and most important they fill core slots.


Nice bodyguard for whatever lord choice carrying the crown of command and maybe them the banner of discipline.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Joey_Boy on April 24, 2012, 11:30:14 AM
Not sure if I agree with the competative EMpire armys using and infantry what so ever. Maybe one unit of swordsmen to help break steadfast. I know Halberds are better at killing stuff, but Swordsmen are better at retaining ranks without character or buff support. And in all cav lists that is what you want as the DGK and IC knights will be doing the damage.

I think we will be seeing something like this:

lvl4, Life.
BSB on pony.
WP on pony.
2 Pegasii capt. (or another unit of 4 DKG, or more cannons/a Helblaster)
12 IC Knights /w GW
10+5+5 Archers
5 knights /lances (or Swordsmen for rank breaking)
4 DGK
4 DGK
STank
STank


The mobility and durability of the Cav lists are superior to any infantry build we can make right now. And with 5 solid combat elements and Life magic in support the army style can take a beating and still keep on trucking.

That's my predictions for the future, some form of the above list. The only reason for taking infantry(other then a GS horde) is for fluff, comp or nostalgia. This is based on competitive tournament play. There is other builds with some infantry and buffage all over, they will however not be as good. 
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Calisson on April 24, 2012, 12:00:56 PM
Engineer - only useful on a helblaster, arguably an expensive combo
Cannon - despite point increase, still must take
Helblaster - reliable, good for killing knights and monster units
I'd recommand a battery of Cannon + Hellblaster with 1 Engineer. 305pts overall.
Align HB forwards, engie at 3" behind, cannon 3" behind engie.
When you start the game and as long as the HB's 24" bubble is free of enemies, the engie helps the cannon.
When the HB has a target, the engie helps the HB and let the cannon aim by itself.
When the HB is about to be charged, the engie remains in between, at the appropriate angle so the pursuit leaves the cannon out of threat. So much for 2 warmachines disabled in 1 turn.
When the engie has been killed in melee, the enemy can't overrun a second time, and stays there => grapeshoot them.


Crossbowmen - too expensive, outriders are a better choice for the points
Handgunners - too expensive, outriders are a better choice for the points
Agree, however they are both core, contrary to outrider.
A small unit of 10 plus 2 detachments of 5 are still useful to babysit a sorcerer.
Such a detachment won't do anything good anyway, so  at least it can shoot.
Xbows have an interesting range for that purpose.



Back to the original question, now.
how to put it all together to make an army?
what units could come together to form a cohesive army?
People want all the goodies plus their favorite units.
In games <3000pts, you just cannot have it all.

- There is the 25% requirement for core.
With all the goodies available in rare/special/hero/lord slots, I foresee core troops to be kept to minimum 25%.
One bus plus 2 detachments as redirectors seems reasonable. Add 1-2 units of vanilla knights.
Alternative: a large unit of ICK. Add 10 Xbows + 2x5 bows for wiz babysit/redirectors.

I'd recommend to start with the core troop and restrict the other slots to what is essential.
Doing it the other way, you'd risk to leave 0% for core, and be forced to remove some useful stuff and replace it by suboptimal core.

- Note that Rare units are all at the same cost (or double that cost for STank).
1 HB = 1 wizcart = 1/2 STank = full allowance for 500pts.
There is a strong incentive to max the rare slot. Every 500pts, you'd wish to take more.
Before comitting 25% of the army to rare, make sure they all fit with your battle plan. The more you cans spare, the better.

That leaves you with 50% for lords + heroes + special.

- heroes are so good that there will be a wish to take many.
BSB is near mandatory.  1-2 WP are must-take. 1 engineer is great with HB+cannon. Captains are nice for "hold the line". Wizards are useful, especially in light with the importance of buffing troops.
Can't take them all. The witchhunter is out.

I foresee that lvl1-2 will soon be out, due to the competition with WP/wizcarts/popemobile/Lvl3-4. Simply said, there's not enough PD for every caster.
I don't expect many non/BSB captains either.

That leaves BSB + 1-2 WP + 1 engie as a candidate for the optimal list.
Not even sure for the engie. However, his duty cannot be taken by anyone except by more warmachines, and you're short of rare/special pts.

- lords.
I want a Lvl4 for magic defense, and the popemobile for flaming cannons/hatred for everyone.
I'd love the griffon general and the runefang GM. And another lvl4, too.
Can't take them all.
That should be either GOTE or TGM or none.
That should be either 1 Lvl4 or WA, possibly none if I get several WP and a wizcart.
I'm convinced that an army could do well with only WA/wizcarts/WP, and not a single sorcerer.
I don't say that it's optimal, you'd have to endure the opponent's magic, but you'd have plenty of use for your meagre PD.
I won't be surprised to see a no-lord competitive army, maxing rare/hero slots.

- Finally, special.
I put them last because I think that they are less mandatory than other choices.
Is there any pts remaining? If not, review your previous choices and remove anything which is not absolutely vital.
Cannons are still near mandatory. 1 or 2 depending on the size of the army.
Greatswords => consider a core bus instead.
Flagellants => the STank can tar pit as well. Either one is great, probably not both.
Reiksguard => consider ICK instead. Either one, not both.
Demigryph Knights => consider STank. Keep them cheap anyway.
Outriders => consider handgunners or RXB instead.
Pistoliers => consider archers instead.
Huntsmen => consider archers instead.
Once you've considered it all, some specials will remain, some will see their role more or less taken by core units or units you already plan to take.



Overall, the good point with Empire is that many units have roles which overlap with many other units.
This means that you could do without pretty much anything, except BSB, 1 WP and cannon.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: zifnab0 on April 24, 2012, 01:05:43 PM
I'd recommand a battery of Cannon + Hellblaster with 1 Engineer. 305pts overall.
Totally agree.  This is going to be my preferred setup, although some people might want to take 2 sets, although expensive.

- There is the 25% requirement for core.
With all the goodies available in rare/special/hero/lord slots, I foresee core troops to be kept to minimum 25%.
One bus plus 2 detachments as redirectors seems reasonable. Add 1-2 units of vanilla knights.
Alternative: a large unit of ICK. Add 10 Xbows + 2x5 bows for wiz babysit/redirectors.
I've actually been playing around with the idea of using a block of Greatswords as my central unit and filling up core points with Knights, possibly inner circle.  Expensive, but it's a hard hitting combo.

I foresee that lvl1-2 will soon be out, due to the competition with WP/wizcarts/popemobile/Lvl3-4. Simply said, there's not enough PD for every caster.
I don't expect many non/BSB captains either.
There's also not enough room in the hero slot to take a Level 2 wizard.  A non-BSB captain is great for making a unit virtually fearless.

I want a Lvl4 for magic defense, and the popemobile for flaming cannons/hatred for everyone.
I don't think the popemobile will be as useful as it used to be.  You've already got 2 WP for buffing your Bus/Horde, what else is going to need hatred and be within 6" of the popemobile?  Flaming cannons is pretty much the only reason to take a popemobile and I'm not convinced it's worth it.

I also don't think the wagons are worth mounting a lvl. 4 on them.  They might be good as a rare choice, but they're a liability for a wizard.

Lords I think will be Lvl. 4 maybe a GotE instead of a captain in one of your blocks.  Griffon GotE might also be useful, but you're spending a lot of points on him, and not taking advantage of HtL, which IMO is the real value of our mundane characters.

Greatswords => consider a core bus instead.
Flagellants => the STank can tar pit as well. Either one is great, probably not both.
Demigryph Knights => consider STank. Keep them cheap anyway.
I think Demigryph Knights are going to be a staple.  A 4-wide unit is hard hitting and cheaper than a STank.  And they're one of the few units we can field with multiple attacks.

Greatswords haven't been replaced by anything in the core choices.

Flagellants shouldn't be taken, there are better and cheaper tarpits.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: tcklein on April 24, 2012, 01:30:14 PM
I think a lot of people will switch to one cannon, and use the stanks cannon as a fall back.

I've been doing this and it's working out pretty well.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Talben21 on April 24, 2012, 01:36:12 PM
For any new Empire players; this thread has a lot of great advice in it!
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Spiney on April 24, 2012, 02:13:20 PM
Callison, that's a great assessment of how to build an army, it was really helpful thanks.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Padre on April 24, 2012, 02:27:11 PM
Thank you ever so much for this thread. It's made me really look at the rulebook again, which in turn has made a bit miffed.

The points per Handgunner (I have loads of painted handgunners) are ridiculous, especially, as pointed out, cf. the Outriders (of which I have none). One Outrider at loads less than the cost of three Handgunners, shoots the same number of shots at the same effective BS, and on top of that gets the positional benefits of fast cavalry, and has an armour save. Completely and utterly stupid points imbalance. I am almost afraid to start comparing other things. The only thing I can think of which 'balances' this is that when one Outrider dies you lose three shots, but when one Handgunner dies you lose only one. Oh, and Handgunners can have standards (just points for the enemy to take). Meh!
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Sanctus on April 24, 2012, 03:43:17 PM
I'm still skeptical on the 2 cannons + HBVG battery. I'm not sure he's worth it still, he's still a gamble in of itself in that he has to chose which cannon etc to help out before they are shot. I might have play around with a bit but I'm not sure, he's still a point investment and is worth 10 Halberds or a WP.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Spiney on April 24, 2012, 03:53:14 PM
I'm still skeptical on the 2 cannons + HBVG battery. I'm not sure he's worth it still, he's still a gamble in of itself in that he has to chose which cannon etc to help out before they are shot. I might have play around with a bit but I'm not sure, he's still a point investment and is worth 10 Halberds or a WP.

Are you talking about an engineer with the HBVG? Sure he is expensive, but looking at what he does to the engine by allowing you to reroll a arty dice AND raising its BS by 1 is a pretty big step up. Basically what it comes down to is does he increase the effectiveness of the machine by 50%, if he does then its worth paying the points.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: malladin_ben on April 24, 2012, 03:58:31 PM
A note on Handgunners (and I'm not really stating this as a big defence of them as I'be dropped them from my army) but they can be detachments, which means they get to stand and shoot when your main unit is charged. Trouble is when they get charged they die very easily and provides a nice soft target for breaking the detachment trap.

I still wouldn't take them, but it is something they can do that outsiders can't.

Ben
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Warlord on April 24, 2012, 04:07:51 PM
Outriders => consider handgunners or RXB instead.

You mean XB. If we could get RXB, that would be a very different discussion  :-)

I think I do overestimate flagellants, mainly because of all those people who swore by them in 7th and early 8th. Those people will (and should) continue to use them, because in theory they are still our most destructive unit. Especially now that the max 30 unit size is lifted.
Personally though, I think they die too much.

I do disagree about the role of the Demi-gryphs vs the role of the Steam Tank. Yes, on the charge, the steam tank can hurt, however subsequent rounds it will not be able to dish out anywhere near as much damage as the Demi-gryphs. Add to that their ability to take a magic banner (such as flaming) and these guys will kill things and fast. Faster the Steam Tank grinding in subsequent rounds. They cannot tarpit, however, which the Steam Tank does excel at.

Plus, you mentioned it yourself, the Rare points percentage restriction will mean these guys can perform a similar role.
Rare I generally see going to a Steam tank, Helblaster and Magic Wagon. Not enough points in the slot left for another Steam Tank, and thats why the DGK will see a lot of action.

A note on Handgunners (and I'm not really stating this as a big defence of them as I'be dropped them from my army) but they can be detachments, which means they get to stand and shoot when your main unit is charged. Trouble is when they get charged they die very easily and provides a nice soft target for breaking the detachment trap.

I still wouldn't take them, but it is something they can do that outsiders can't.

Outriders can stand and shoot also...
And if they are charged, they can flee, and rally in a really annoying spot for the next turn.

But regardless, Outriders do perform a different role than handgunners / crossbowmen - I just don't believe the handgunner / crossbowmen role is required anymore.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Calisson on April 24, 2012, 04:26:48 PM
Outriders => consider handgunners or RXB instead.

You mean XB. If we could get RXB, that would be a very different discussion  :-)
Oops! The dark elf spy has been spotted.  :icon_mad:
Now everybody knows that everything that I said is crap and you need to consider exactly the contrary.
I'm doomed...


Back to serious discussion.
I do disagree about the role of the Demi-gryphs vs the role of the Steam Tank. Yes, on the charge, the steam tank can hurt, however subsequent rounds it will not be able to dish out anywhere near as much damage as the Demi-gryphs. Add to that their ability to take a magic banner (such as flaming) and these guys will kill things and fast. Faster the Steam Tank grinding in subsequent rounds. They cannot tarpit, however, which the Steam Tank does excel at.

Plus, you mentioned it yourself, the Rare points percentage restriction will mean these guys can perform a similar role.
Rare I generally see going to a Steam tank, Helblaster and Magic Wagon. Not enough points in the slot left for another Steam Tank, and thats why the DGK will see a lot of action.
You're right. What I meant was that if you're already running a dual STank, maybe the DGK might be overkill.
DGK are indeed uniquely hard hitting during many turns. Plus they are quite fast.
For these two reasons, they can be considered a must-have (that's why I've bought mine already, while I'm not planning to buy anything else atm).
What should be discussed is how to run them:
- 3 vanilla or 4 FC flaming banner?
- stand alone or with WP/TGM?
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on April 24, 2012, 04:29:17 PM
Not sure if I agree with the competative EMpire armys using and infantry what so ever. Maybe one unit of swordsmen to help break steadfast. I know Halberds are better at killing stuff, but Swordsmen are better at retaining ranks without character or buff support.

That's still not true, Joey, unless you field units of the same size. Killing more stuff and having more ranks is vastly superior to suffering one or two fewer casualties.

Quote
I think we will be seeing something like this:
...
The mobility and durability of the Cav lists are superior to any infantry build we can make right now. And with 5 solid combat elements and Life magic in support the army style can take a beating and still keep on trucking.

I think such a list will forever remain a minority choice. Mobility is better, yes, but durability is way lower, with the possible exception of the STanks, which could be taken in an infantry or mixed list as well.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Skyros on April 24, 2012, 05:35:03 PM
My flaggies, militia, mortars, and TGM are all staying home.

I'll probably (2500 list) bring something like the following

2 cannons
helblaster
helstorm
engineer

(in 7th I would take 3x cannon and 3x mortar and one engineer)

steamtank

(took in 7th will still take)

war altar
(more for unit buffs and LD bubble than powerful combat unit: if I'm not taking AOMI, mace of helstrum, VHS, etc total cost should be about the same)

BSB
(about the same cost, will no longer have flaming banner now)

Used to take L1 wizard, will no longer.

Will continue to take L4 wizard: either light or life.

Used to take unit of xbows. Dropping.

Took small unit of greatswords before. Probably still will. Might give them warbanner or flaming banner.

Took 2 blocks of halberds and one of swords before. Will probably be 2 of halberds and one of spears now. About the same points wise.

Hopefully the points from dropping things will let me shoehorn in a captain on pegasus and/or unit of DGK. Or just plain ole vanilla knights.  I'd also like to find the points to put my wizard lord on a wagon, if a light wizard. (or at least just buy the wagon).

I will probably not be taking any command options on my blocks. (Unless a tourny list where I need banners). 30 points saved across 4 blocks is very significant. I'm not paying 10 points for one more attack or +1 CR for anvil units or the ability to win ties for anvil units.

I can take 30 spearmen for 150 points. Or I can take 30 spearmen with FC for 180 points. Does FC increase the units power by 20%? Nooooope.

--------------

I'll probably also make a char heavy list with WP in all units, witch hunters running around in skirmishing archer units, captains all over to hold the line, etc.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on April 24, 2012, 05:57:08 PM
Sometimes it does. It can mean holding out for two rounds more, or turning a loss into a win. Anvil, HtL and CoC or not, it's usually better to make the other side roll the dice. Or crumble a wee bit more. And then there's B&G, and there's swift reform, and an anvil that wins is better than one that loses. For me it also somewhat evens out with the knights' command getting cheaper.

I'd not take a champ on Spearmen though.

What should be discussed is how to run them:
- 3 vanilla or 4 FC flaming banner?
- stand alone or with WP/TGM?

Stand alone vanilla would be my bet. The BotEF is kinda wasted on them - you don't get enough attacks against a Hydra or Abom from the front before the Knights die (or at least lose badly). If you are certain you can always get flank charges in, it's a different situation, same if you face a lot of Trolls or whatever else gets Regen these days.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Joey_Boy on April 24, 2012, 08:47:32 PM
Not sure if I agree with the competative EMpire armys using and infantry what so ever. Maybe one unit of swordsmen to help break steadfast. I know Halberds are better at killing stuff, but Swordsmen are better at retaining ranks without character or buff support.

That's still not true, Joey, unless you field units of the same size. Killing more stuff and having more ranks is vastly superior to suffering one or two fewer casualties.

Quote
I think we will be seeing something like this:
...
The mobility and durability of the Cav lists are superior to any infantry build we can make right now. And with 5 solid combat elements and Life magic in support the army style can take a beating and still keep on trucking.

I think such a list will forever remain a minority choice. Mobility is better, yes, but durability is way lower, with the possible exception of the STanks, which could be taken in an infantry or mixed list as well.

I think your in the wrong mindset, having a 7th ed book hangover so to speak on this.

If you have a unit who's sole purpose in your list is to negate the steadfast of your opponent. Then retaining the ranks is more important then killing 1-2 guys more. I'm talking about a unit of 20-25 Swordsmen here. The same points allocated in Halberds will never provide as many ranks when fighting. While the horde formation Halbers of the same points value might kill a couple of guys, The Swordsmen can go in with your STank or DGK to help break steadfast while the other units are doing the damage that neather Swordsmen or Halberds can. Sure you can always tool up the Halberds with a WP, capt and support from a wagon or wizard. But I'd rather play with captains on pegasii and using my PD to boost/heal my STank/DGK/ICKnights as they will kill more then the Halberds while taking way less damage back. It's a totally different way to play your infantry where they are not expected to do any damage as they will be 5 wide to allow maneuverability and easier access to flanks/corner to corner charges in ongoing combats.

This is where the Swordsmen will really outshine any other infantry we have(except maybe Greatswords who cost to much and are special). Other then that I only really see small units of 5 archers running around blocking units and diverting frenzy stuff.   

Regarding durability. 40 Hablerds with FC is a few points more then 4 DGK with FC. Overall I'd say the 12 wounds of the DGK will last longer then the Halberds. They are less likely to get trapped in a bad spot due to their higher movement, and the 1+AS and higher WS will keep them alive longer in CC. Also the Lore of life will have a higher effect and worth when playing multiple DGKs and STanks. This type of army will also be able to engage faster and at the right places while using units such as archer detachments, pegasii.capt and pistoleers/outriders to keep them safe.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Warlord on April 25, 2012, 12:56:17 AM
I agree about the purpose of infantry.

Halberds are about killing as much as possible, Spearmen or Swordsmen are about retaining ranks for as long as possible to break enemy steadfast. Thats why Halberds should always be taken in Horde formation, Spearmen and Swordsmen always taken in bus.

Killing stuff is not always superior because thats whats the Steam Tank, Flagellants and DGK are for. Put them in the flank of a unit engaged with your bus, and you should be able to break said unit. Halberds will give up too many wounds vs those they inflict which makes this risky.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: The Ol Perfesser on April 25, 2012, 01:06:45 AM
...Halberds should always be taken in Horde formation, Spearmen and Swordsmen always taken in bus.
Duly noted!  I will be trying this out.   :icon_cool:
How many swords in the bus?  Is 30 too few these days?
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Warlord on April 25, 2012, 01:15:58 AM
That really depends on your gaming scene.

If people are still taking smaller units, 30 may be enough. I would suggest though 35-40 may be safer if you fight lots of killy type units.

If your gaming scene has large units, 40 should be your minimum.

Though I imagine others here may have differing advice?
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: redflag on April 25, 2012, 04:59:54 AM
Don't forget a "unit" of 2-3 Pegasus knights (now that we can fly our battle standard bearer).  I know they can't actually join as a unit but they can still be moved as a unit or fly their own separate ways as the situation demands.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: pippin_nl on April 25, 2012, 05:54:14 AM
@Joey: It does depend on what you are fighting. The infantry is really needed against cheap and deep infantry units to break steadfast. Those units will not really harm either swordsmen or halberdiers. Elites like white lions are going to be a problem for both the hammers (except the steam tank) and the anvils.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on April 25, 2012, 05:02:11 PM
If you have a unit who's sole purpose in your list is to negate the steadfast of your opponent. Then retaining the ranks is more important then killing 1-2 guys more.

Retaining ranks and causing casualties are two sides of the same coin. Who is eventually steadfast and perhaps more importantly who actually needs steadfast is a matter of relative CR and starting ranks, not of your own casualties alone. If you engage a unit with more ranks, losing less models alone will often not do the trick. There are cases in which Halberdiers kill faster and more than compensate for the Swordsmen's reduced losses.

Quote
I'm talking about a unit of 20-25 Swordsmen here. The same points allocated in Halberds will never provide as many ranks when fighting.

20 Swords/Halbs, bus vs 20 Clanrats, bus
Swords lose 1.4 - CR lose 1.8

Halbs lose 2, CR lose 2.3

Yes, on the face of it, Swordsmen are a microscopic amount better. When it comes to ranks though they have both lost one. Yes, on the face of it, Halberdiers will lose the second rank sooner than Swordsmen - but then this is just one of those sides of the above mentioned coin since they will also take off a rank sooner.

When we consider that one could opt to spend a fixed amount of points, the additional 3 Halberdiers will be enough of a padding to immediately break this particular opponent.

Quote
The Swordsmen can go in with your STank or DGK to help break steadfast while the other units are doing the damage that neather Swordsmen or Halberds can.

But Joey, why can't Halberdiers or any other unit for that matter not go in with DGK's or a STank? I confess I'm a bit confused. Are they slower or not allowed to combo-charge?  :?

Quote
my STank/DGK/ICKnights as they will kill more then the Halberds while taking way less damage back.

But that wasn't the salient point. You stated that Swordsmen are the best anvil, which I disagreed with, and so we were comparing these two units. We were not comparing Halberdiers and DGK's, so this is of no import.

Quote
Regarding durability. 40 Hablerds with FC is a few points more then 4 DGK with FC.

I'm afraid you mix things up again. I said that an all-cavalry list is less durable. As with everything there will be exceptions but once your knights meet a GW horde they will suffer more casualties in relation to their unit size than a decently sized unit of State Troops - and they will suffer more from static CR. I realize that you can take the CoC or Reichsguard but you can take the CoC in infantry or sub RG with GS, and the infantry might not even need these investments because it could be steadfast. Being run down isn't a sign of durability in my mind.

Halberds are about killing as much as possible, Spearmen or Swordsmen are about retaining ranks for as long as possible to break enemy steadfast. Thats why Halberds should always be taken in Horde formation, Spearmen and Swordsmen always taken in bus.

This hard-and-fast rule is not true in many cases either. A bus serves us well when the unit in question would lose no matter what, eg. against Elites. In this case, all core State Troops are well advised to form up deep though.

When you're up against some core infantry in horde however, putting your unit into a bus formation is a surefire recipe to lose. Yes, of course you are steadfast, you might have CoC, General and BSB around and might not care but why make things overly complex and use a second unit when you could win this fight with one alone? There is no rule anywhere that says that a unit supposed to be an anvil or tarpit must not win.

Remember that going 5-wide against a horde reduces the relative number of attacks by 9:20. In all cases in which the opposing units are relatively equal, going horde with all State Troops is a viable alternative.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Clymer on April 25, 2012, 05:30:37 PM
I think a lot of people will switch to one cannon, and use the stanks cannon as a fall back.

I'm not sure that a lord character other than a wizard is vital. Perhaps a Lector with the CoC so you need one less WP.

level 4 wizard
BSB
some warrior priests

Halberdier horde

Cannon
Demigryph knights

Stank.


I think that is the "basic" template I would build around (unless I was doing all mounted)
I wonder if a unit of 10 Ic knights will become standard now too.

Yeah I think this will be very common... especially the bit about 1 cannon plus two steam tanks. Now that you can actually fire that cannon, there's a lot of efficiency there... you're also not going to have it picked off by some wolf riders in the rear. The ICK are a definite option for filling core and I believe that the halberd horde will remain the standard core infantry choice, despite what others are saying about spearmen.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Clymer on April 25, 2012, 05:38:21 PM
Not sure if I agree with the competative EMpire armys using and infantry what so ever. Maybe one unit of swordsmen to help break steadfast. I know Halberds are better at killing stuff, but Swordsmen are better at retaining ranks without character or buff support.

That's still not true, Joey, unless you field units of the same size. Killing more stuff and having more ranks is vastly superior to suffering one or two fewer casualties.

Quote
I think we will be seeing something like this:
...
The mobility and durability of the Cav lists are superior to any infantry build we can make right now. And with 5 solid combat elements and Life magic in support the army style can take a beating and still keep on trucking.

I think such a list will forever remain a minority choice. Mobility is better, yes, but durability is way lower, with the possible exception of the STanks, which could be taken in an infantry or mixed list as well.

I think your in the wrong mindset, having a 7th ed book hangover so to speak on this.

If you have a unit who's sole purpose in your list is to negate the steadfast of your opponent. Then retaining the ranks is more important then killing 1-2 guys more. I'm talking about a unit of 20-25 Swordsmen here. The same points allocated in Halberds will never provide as many ranks when fighting. While the horde formation Halbers of the same points value might kill a couple of guys, The Swordsmen can go in with your STank or DGK to help break steadfast while the other units are doing the damage that neather Swordsmen or Halberds can. Sure you can always tool up the Halberds with a WP, capt and support from a wagon or wizard. But I'd rather play with captains on pegasii and using my PD to boost/heal my STank/DGK/ICKnights as they will kill more then the Halberds while taking way less damage back. It's a totally different way to play your infantry where they are not expected to do any damage as they will be 5 wide to allow maneuverability and easier access to flanks/corner to corner charges in ongoing combats.

This is where the Swordsmen will really outshine any other infantry we have(except maybe Greatswords who cost to much and are special). Other then that I only really see small units of 5 archers running around blocking units and diverting frenzy stuff.   

Regarding durability. 40 Hablerds with FC is a few points more then 4 DGK with FC. Overall I'd say the 12 wounds of the DGK will last longer then the Halberds. They are less likely to get trapped in a bad spot due to their higher movement, and the 1+AS and higher WS will keep them alive longer in CC. Also the Lore of life will have a higher effect and worth when playing multiple DGKs and STanks. This type of army will also be able to engage faster and at the right places while using units such as archer detachments, pegasii.capt and pistoleers/outriders to keep them safe.

Brilliant. I don't disagree with Lord Solar Plexus, I think you guys have just identified two different styles of the same game. I think both are going to be strong. I definitely will still be expecting a lot out of my halberds, but I'm looking forward to dusting off the swordsmen for exactly the style of play described by Joey.

At the end of the day, the differences on this are too close to be reliable by the numbers one way or the other, it's going to come down to generalship, just the way god, uhm, I mean Jervis, intended it.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Gustavus Magnus on September 09, 2012, 02:34:04 PM
(I am still mourning the loss of the Sword of Sigismund)

I haven't seen the new book yet but hate it already.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Calisson on September 10, 2012, 11:17:50 AM
I haven't seen the new book yet but hate it already.
There has been a lot of whining about the new Army Book in Warhammer-Empire forums.
It lasted a couple of days.
Then people actually started playing with the book.
Some people complained that the new rules were not adapted to their former army.
Then some people realized that they could adapt to the new rules.
Then many people realized that playing with the new rules with an army adapted to them was an enjoyable experience.
Now, I'm sure that there are people that would not like to come back to the former army book.

In parallel, as soon as the present book has been released, people from other forums playing against Empire started complaining.
AFAIK, they are still complaining.

So, Gustavus Magnus, are you one of the Empire's regular opponents, or are you just at the very start of a learning process?

Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Padre on September 10, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
What with the quoted excerpt from Uryens' post, Calisson, I think Gustavus Magnus hates the new book based on the fact that the Sword of Sigismund has gone.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 10, 2012, 06:33:43 PM
The loss of magic items has been criticized with every army.

I gave the army a chance. But in playing it I've found the feel is just not the same. The loss of all the shooting is a big one for me - and the shift from mortar being all powerful to the Hellblaster being all powerful feels like nothing was really balanced in the end.

Also the Engineer not being able to float his re-roll ability over a few different war machines has led(on table top) to placing cannons on opposite ends of the board to get better angles. While in a more realistic battle they would be grouped together for protection and so that the Master engineer could direct his crews.

You also need to take a warrior priest and captain in every big unit. The points for the models cost more so without the priests and captains they just end up dying.

Overall my complaints aren't about overpowered or underpowered rules, its the change in the feeling of the army. I still got lots of models so I'm going to keep playing and maybe it will eventually become more fun.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Gustavus Magnus on September 27, 2012, 06:31:36 AM
What with the quoted excerpt from Uryens' post, Calisson, I think Gustavus Magnus hates the new book based on the fact that the Sword of Sigismund has gone.

Correct, I loved the Sword. 

For the record, I have never been an opponent of the Empire.  I have been playing Empire since Lich Kings in massive chariots could take up something like 75% of an army list and run over all opposition. (4th then 5th editions).  I've just been away for a while.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on September 27, 2012, 06:55:13 AM
I haven't seen the new book yet but hate it already.

That statement would have made more sense 6 months ago when the book came out and this thread was active, so in b4 lock.

There has been a lot of whining about the new Army Book in Warhammer-Empire forums.
It lasted a couple of days.
Then people actually started playing with the book.
Some people complained that the new rules were not adapted to their former army.
Then some people realized that they could adapt to the new rules.
Then many people realized that playing with the new rules with an army adapted to them was an enjoyable experience.

You're wrong I'm afraid.

You missed the vast number of legitimate concerns, subsuming them under the negatively connotated term "whining". The complaints were not only on WE but universal, and their amount, tonality and intent was and is vastly exaggerated for whatever reasons. Only the most tiny minority in the history of mankind argued that the new stuff wasn't adapted to their army. Most people didn't even have any beef with those few rule changes but the drastic point increases all over the place. 

You also need to take a warrior priest and captain in every big unit. The points for the models cost more so without the priests and captains they just end up dying.

You absolutely don't need to do that. In fact, doing that would probably leave you with a single unit in 2k, as the point cost would be prohibitive.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Shadow_Zero on September 27, 2012, 02:01:55 PM
Engineer - only useful on a helblaster, arguably an expensive combo
Cannon - despite point increase, still must take
Helblaster - reliable, good for killing knights and monster units
I'd recommand a battery of Cannon + Hellblaster with 1 Engineer. 305pts overall.
Align HB forwards, engie at 3" behind, cannon 3" behind engie.
When you start the game and as long as the HB's 24" bubble is free of enemies, the engie helps the cannon.
When the HB has a target, the engie helps the HB and let the cannon aim by itself.
When the HB is about to be charged, the engie remains in between, at the appropriate angle so the pursuit leaves the cannon out of threat. So much for 2 warmachines disabled in 1 turn.
When the engie has been killed in melee, the enemy can't overrun a second time, and stays there => grapeshoot them.
Sounds good!
But don't Engineer and/or HBVG block LOS for the Canon then? Or do we get in a TLOS discussion then? Well, my main question, can a Canon shoot 'over' a lone model or other canon?
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Darknight on September 27, 2012, 02:10:17 PM
You also need to take a warrior priest and captain in every big unit. The points for the models cost more so without the priests and captains they just end up dying.

Perhaps not BOTH, and maybe not in every big unit (not sure what constitutes big - YMMV), but the idea of lots of lesser characters is a good one for Empire. Empire characters are inexpensive and have some nice buffs associated with them.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 27, 2012, 02:11:06 PM
I actually like this...even though I seldon have more than four characters in my armies.

 :unsure:
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: zifnab0 on September 27, 2012, 03:06:46 PM
You also need to take a warrior priest and captain in every big unit. The points for the models cost more so without the priests and captains they just end up dying.

Perhaps not BOTH, and maybe not in every big unit (not sure what constitutes big - YMMV), but the idea of lots of lesser characters is a good one for Empire. Empire characters are inexpensive and have some nice buffs associated with them.
My lists usually include a General, BSB, two warrior priests and a level 4.  I don't think that's overkill on characters, and gives my 2 big priest buffs and HtL.

If I were to run 3 hordes, I'd probably take a War Altar instead of the warrior priests and general, but bring along at least 1 more captain for hold the line.

But lately I've been running a cavalry list with only 1 priest.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 27, 2012, 03:09:23 PM
I try to come out with good ideas for war altar lists and the best I could figure out so far would be a greatsword horde and halberd horde with the war altar in the middle and both hordes a swords detachment and some archers for screening and diversion.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on September 27, 2012, 05:44:48 PM
Three infantry combat units in a triangle formation (kind of), with or without detachments works very well IMO. Of course free stubborn for the GS is nice but it's not elemental - especially when you're actually winning fights through hatred, numbers, prayers, ranks & flanks.

Perhaps not BOTH, and maybe not in every big unit (not sure what constitutes big - YMMV), but the idea of lots of lesser characters is a good one for Empire. Empire characters are inexpensive and have some nice buffs associated with them.

I'm not sure on what ground you base this statement. Characters are not at all inexpensive. More than four really starts to add up and means taking out a combat block or important support elements, especially if you do not want them to die to every S4+ horde. They are decently priced but that's not the same as cheap.

It doesn't really matter how expensive they are when "lots of lesser characters = 625 points". 
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Darknight on September 27, 2012, 10:00:27 PM
They are decently priced but that's not the same as cheap.

Inexpensive /= cheap. And that is why I didn't say cheap, and said inexpensive. Decently priced means they aren't expensive, which means inexpensive in my book.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: iatroblast on September 27, 2012, 10:54:44 PM
I saw a list with ST, Demigryphs, knights and nothing but shooting. Seemed pretty solid and I wouldn't like to place my army in front of that (or anywhere near it)
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Gustavus Magnus on September 28, 2012, 02:53:55 AM
I haven't seen the new book yet but hate it already.

That statement would have made more sense 6 months ago when the book came out and this thread was active, so in b4 lock.

Being out for 6 months or not, the book is still new to me because I haven't seen it yet.
 :smile2:
  I didn't notice the date of the thread but judging by the new exchange, it was worth bringing back from the dead.  Now I'm going to go listen to "The Necromancer" by Rush. :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 28, 2012, 04:02:19 AM
I miss the sword of sigsmund too. But a TGM with runefang + OTS makes up for it.


And when I say warrior priest and captain in every big unit, I mean BIG unit. Warrior priest spam in the units you want to do damage. And captains in your bus/tarpit stuff.
If I got a unit that 400pts(including characters) then I want to throw in a captain to make sure it doesn't die to a bad dice roll on a break test.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on September 28, 2012, 05:43:09 AM
Inexpensive /= cheap. And that is why I didn't say cheap, and said inexpensive. Decently priced means they aren't expensive, which means inexpensive in my book.

I see where you are coming from but taking lots of lesser characters or perhaps even filling out hero choices I would consider expensive. In which case it seems odd to argue for this approach because of its inexpensiveness.

YMMV.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: mr chumley warner on September 28, 2012, 10:21:08 AM
My 8th army has now dropped entirely the following units:

Handgunners and Xbows = Too expensive 9 pts FFS ?!

Mortars = St2 phaaaaa nooooooo

Walter = Mediocre.

Swordsmen = 7 pts what eh , you what????????! Have you seen a chaos marauder for 4pts with better stat lines like Initiative 4?!?!?!

Flegellants = 12 pts = Fleggedon'ts!!

Greatswords = 11 pts = I simply can't get mine to reward me!
===============================

The units I am more confident with having are DG Knights, all types of  Knights, Halberds, Stank, Captains, Cannons, HBVG's, WP's, TGM, Wizards, archers units, Engineers, Cpatasus / Genesus... Buff Wagons,

That is how my army looks now! Big blocks of Halberds , Stank anvil, and DG / Knights for a heavy hit, with magic and characters in to do more damage, then cannons and HBVG's with engy's

It's a shame GW nerfed Crazies and Swordsmen so badly.....

Swordsmen - please help me,,,,

It will be more acceptable for me if they change Chaos Marauders to a higher points cost in the new book soon,

but a marauder has higher initiative, will of chaos, and is 4 pts FFS!!!






Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: jaggedjimmyj on September 28, 2012, 10:53:21 AM
I've only had four games or so with the new book (2 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss (Watchtower with Graveguard in it, so it doesn't count)), so you probably shouldn't listen to me that much, bu the following has worked for me:

2 big blocks of infantry (1 haberd, 1 GS (OR 2 halberds IF low pts))
Both blocks get a WP with HA & Sh. One block gets BSB w. CoC.
Maybe a small CC detachment if you have the pts.

Add  crossbows detachment. About 14 to get flaming attacks from priests. And if needed act as a speedbump.
Now you've got 2 units you can horde up since they're stubborn.
Some knights to fill minimum core (5-10 probably).

Brace of cannons (that's what Jesus'd do)
Outriders, to be used once Crossbows have stripped regen. Can also marchblock and annoy. No move and fire, but pistoliers usually don't kill anything anyways. Outriders CAN cause some pain if the opportunity arises.
A small DG unit
The hurricanum (for your stubborn infantry hordes)

Ah, and a Lvl4 Metal. Glittering good with GS, aiban is good with anything (Outriders love it). Final transmutation is legendary. Even the direct dmg spells can be useful.

This works for me. Tho' not many games yet. As stated.
But right now I'm not useing: HBVG w. eng, ST.
Two of the things everyone uses, and I'm doing OK. But it mnay just be local meta.

Quote
It will be more acceptable for me if they change Chaos Marauders to a higher points cost in the new book soon,
Yeah, a naked marauder needs to be at least 7pts now. 9 with  GW or Flail.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 28, 2012, 06:36:45 PM
Add  crossbows detachment. About 14 to get flaming attacks from priests. And if needed act as a speedbump.
Now you've got 2 units you can horde up since they're stubborn.
Some knights to fill minimum core (5-10 probably).

None of the priest powers transfer to ranged weapons. This is a big reason no one is taking xbows or handgunners. It would be a VERY different story if the priests fire spell affected the ranged weapons but it doesn't. Which is also why everyone says "xbows/Hguns = 9pts WTF?!?!?"
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: mr chumley warner on September 28, 2012, 06:47:04 PM
'@jimmy ''Brace of cannons (that's what Jesus'd do)''

I apologize to any religious persons reading, but this comment is brilliant :)


I don't believe in a man who walked on water or could duplicate fishes, but the real Jesus would take 2 Stanks and 2 Hell Blasters !
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: zifnab0 on September 28, 2012, 07:10:55 PM
None of the priest powers transfer to ranged weapons.
"The priest and his unit gain the Flaming Attacks special rule"

"a model with this special rule has both Flaming shooting and close combat attacks."
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: The Peacemaker on September 28, 2012, 08:24:22 PM
"a model with this special rule has both Flaming shooting and close combat attacks."
Nope. It says somewhere in the Empire book that the priests flaming ability is only for close combat. I specifically remember this because it was a big issue when the book came out.

I don't believe in a man who walked on water or could duplicate fishes, but the real Jesus would take 2 Stanks and 2 Hell Blasters !
Ancient Aliens my friend. Ancient Aliens....
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on September 28, 2012, 08:30:41 PM
Walter = Mediocre.

Swordsmen = 7 pts what eh , you what????????! Have you seen a chaos marauder for 4pts with better stat lines like Initiative 4?!?!?!

Greatswords = 11 pts = I simply can't get mine to reward me!

It all lies in the eyes of the beholder. The Waltar is very good and cheap compared to WP's + General, Swordsmen make nice detachments and I wouldn't go out without Greatswords. DGK however...meh, they didn't live up to the promise in my games yet. 
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fidelis von Sigmaringen on September 28, 2012, 08:35:51 PM
"a model with this special rule has both Flaming shooting and close combat attacks."
Nope. It says somewhere in the Empire book that the priests flaming ability is only for close combat. I specifically remember this because it was a big issue when the book came out.

Zifnab0 is correct. The Shield of Faith ward save is only in CC. There is no such restriction for Soulfire.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lanceocletian on September 28, 2012, 08:45:15 PM
I think the group and myself is having the same discussion about the new book every 4-6 weeks.  So much of the frustration I think stems from the fact that most Empire players enjoy being a 'jack of all trades' and doing a little bit of everything in each phase.  Yet in each unit category, such as combat infantry, missile infantry, and war machines there seems to be only a couple of competitive options.  Moreover, most of us are semi-competitive which is why we are in the tactics section of the most dominant Empire discussion group. Finally, I think Empire players are a bit different than most WFB players, many players here are really longtime players with 5+ years and feel a special devotion to this army and we want to make certain regiments work even if they aren't point effective. I have 80 swordsmen, 20 handgunners, 40 crossbowmen, mortars, extra cannons, rocket battery and other troops I recently put into my storage unit until the next Empire book. 

I haven’t observed many tournament records as of late, but I think the winning Empire lists will essentially comprise 75% of what Finlay is suggesting on the first page is correct: halbrediers, knights, helblasters, stanks, demi-griffs, lev. 4, BSB, and warrior priests.  The 2nd tier troops include the buff wagons, cannon, spearmen, archers, outriders, pistoliers, witch hunter, and griffon general which can be added up to about 25-40% of the list without much loss in competitiveness.   Bringing more than 5-10% of your list from free company, swordsmen, mortars, crossbowmen, handgunners, heroes, and rocket batteries will likely hurt you against a decent list.

Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: zifnab0 on September 28, 2012, 08:47:20 PM
"a model with this special rule has both Flaming shooting and close combat attacks."
Nope. It says somewhere in the Empire book that the priests flaming ability is only for close combat. I specifically remember this because it was a big issue when the book came out.
I think you're misremembering.  The ward save and reroll to wound abilities are close combat only.  The flaming attacks is for everything.

Fortunately, we'll get an errata soon, so flaming attacks will probably only apply to close combat going forward.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: zakalwe on September 28, 2012, 09:28:36 PM
MY 8th army is much like my 7th.  ( i don't do tourneys though)

Just my knights are more effective.
Admittedly i haven't taken a mortar for a while, cannon are just more cost efficient now.
Still take flaggies, tend to MSU them.
Core army tends to be  GS horde halb horde and support.

IN 3k i'll be looking at around 8 characters. Bare bones chars are back to being effective ish.

But then again, i'll nostalgia back to the day when i took 11 runefangs in a game, my artillery was in batteries, with a captain guarding each one.

MY 6 mortars ruined a DE army before it got close...etc

Lets face it, 8th is an improvement. though it'll take some getting used to.

To compare it to my saim hann eldar army, when 6th ed 40k came out, i thought i was boned. Several games later i have adapted and find my old army still viable, just takes a little more finesse. An enjoyable challenge.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on September 28, 2012, 09:42:39 PM
Fortunately, we'll get an errata soon, so flaming attacks will probably only apply to close combat going forward.

Funny that you would say that. I just had a deja vu: Before the current book, people were rumouring/wishlisting how State Troops would drop in point cost. We know how that turned out. Now people wishlist the same about the FAQ. Perhaps they'll increase Crossbows to 10 and Spearmen to 6 because they can be buffed with hundreds of spells by extremely cheap albeit nearly to unarmoured characters...  :icon_eek:
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Noght on September 28, 2012, 10:31:29 PM
. Perhaps they'll increase Crossbows to 10 and Spearmen to 6 because they can be buffed with hundreds of spells by extremely cheap albeit nearly to unarmoured characters...  :icon_eek:

That would be so awesome.   :icon_smile:
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Grutch on September 28, 2012, 10:38:18 PM
After reading all of this I have deduced that Crudface is a fucking twat and should eat a dick.

-Grutch
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: finngoalie on September 29, 2012, 05:04:44 AM
C'mon Grutch, just cuz he used to be in "The Village People"....or was it "Queen".....LOL.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Gustavus Magnus on September 29, 2012, 03:27:12 PM
Who's Crudface?
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fidelis von Sigmaringen on September 29, 2012, 03:55:18 PM
It is a derogatory reference to Robin Cruddace, who wrote the Empire Army Book - but, as you may have noticed, not to everyone's satisfaction.  :icon_wink:
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 29, 2012, 04:01:26 PM
Have i already mentioned that i like the new book ? :engel:
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Harshey on September 29, 2012, 05:03:06 PM
I think the new book is fine and competitive. Just wait til the next couple books come out...  You'll see.

I run swordsmen every game, and I think they're just fine.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Quickbeam on September 29, 2012, 07:36:47 PM
Have i already mentioned that i like the new book ? :engel:
I don't like you anymore Fandir.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: GenOmar on September 30, 2012, 04:14:39 PM
It's taken some getting used to, but I think the new book rocks;
Steam Tank - vastly improved, with a wound or two, its still effective
DemiGryph Knights - Spectactular, I run 2 units of three each with a Muso
HBVG - ah, simply the best WM in the game.  I run 2 with Engys.  I never seen so many people measuring out 24 1/2" :icon_mrgreen:
AL/WP with their prayers - great!  I put a WP on BWH and have him support a unit of DGK's
it in no way relates to what the 7th ed book was, and you can't look at it that way or you'll go nuts.
but it is a very competitive AB and gives a lot of opponents pause when they see my Army set up across from them.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on September 30, 2012, 04:42:43 PM
I always liked the steam tank and now....it is just incredible full of awesome as soon as I have the money I also will make a unit of 4 Demigryphs and have my army of pure awesome of Averland.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: jaggedjimmyj on September 30, 2012, 07:26:30 PM
Im not saying that the book isnt competitive. It is. Im doing better with it. But it is a bad book due to poor internal balance.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fidelis von Sigmaringen on September 30, 2012, 11:51:10 PM
+1
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Quickbeam on October 01, 2012, 02:15:16 AM
I have won very few games with the new book because I haven't gotten the wagons or demi chickens or even just stocked up on knights & priests and I play exactly how I used to. I never realized How much we needed all the buffs until I played against another empire army and he wiped the floor with me.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Noght on October 01, 2012, 02:34:21 AM
I have won very few games with the new book because I haven't gotten the wagons or demi chickens or even just stocked up on knights & priests and I play exactly how I used to. I never realized How much we needed all the buffs until I played against another empire army and he wiped the floor with me.

Someone should play the old book with old rules vs the new book with new rules.  I think I know the expected result....
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: LegionsofOdin on October 01, 2012, 02:53:26 AM
i have played a couple games with the new book and overall i dont think the book is that bad, there are a few things that i would have done differnt for example i do not understand the reasoning for raising the cost of our infentry ( except for flagellants) because flaggies went from rare to special and gained a WS, honestly i think our spearmen and millitia should have dropped a point and left the halberdiers and swordsmen alone. and the extra point on the Great swords sure they can take a magic banner now but that magic banner has its own cost and any detachments we take for the Greatsword count as special so i think that was unjustified  and the overkill on the mortar but honestly if you get a direct hit with the mortar you will still probably get 7-8 wounds agianst T3 troops, thats better than the average for the helblaster.

those are really the only griped i have about this book, the detachment rules i think got better ( ok no auto flank but if you know what your doing you shouldent have a problem getting a flank with a detachment anyways) inner circle as core! thats awesome i will not lie, i take a unit of 8-10 in every list. warrior priest spells are much better and face it we all knew they were going the loose the DD abillity but they can still channel like a wizard, no other army has a non caster that can channel. and they made generals and captains a competitive choise with HtL.

the only thing i dont like that they added are the wizard wagons i think they are an eye sore yeah i am still going to get one i like what the abillities are. i will jsut green stuff or modify it beyond all recognition.


now for keeping the thread on track  ( sorry about that wall of nonsence. )

i think there will be a few notable competitive builds (as we are empire ) calvary everyone can see that happening since we have tons of choises for that, we cant swarm our infentry like skaven can but we have bubble buffs to take the edge  and better leadership  so i would exspect to see line apaun line of infentry as some major tournaments also and i am sure most people will mix and match, i dont think we have really many choises that wold be considered not competitive,  and to me those choises are millitia, and probably the rocket for the war machine ( that is a piece of junk)  our BS shooting still has a place as detachments for anti chaff in my mind i still take a couple small units just for that reason.

this complaining thing happens every time a new book comes out it was just like this when we went from 6th to 7th ed and now from 7th to 8th, i would ratehr discuss the possibillities of what we have than whine about what we lost.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 01, 2012, 04:56:09 AM
Have i already mentioned that i like the new book ? :engel:

Some will vote for the party even if the candidate is a broomstick.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 01, 2012, 05:07:28 AM
i think there will be a few notable competitive builds (as we are empire ) calvary everyone can see that happening since we have tons of choises for that, we cant swarm our infentry like skaven can but we have bubble buffs to take the edge  and better leadership  so i would exspect to see line apaun line of infentry as some major tournaments also and i am sure most people will mix and match,

A few, as in several? I don't see that. Cavalry has not changed at all, so there's no reason it would be better. You might with some squeezing get a single knight more than in the old book but that's about it. To be honest, I would be surprised if you had the body count of the past book because you need to spend hundreds of points on dozens of buffs, or the knights fall off their horsies.

I agree, we cannot swarm opponents, which is why I don't understand the term "line upon line". That again implies a multitude. As a matter of fact and not idle speculation, Empire armies contain two units, which even @50 strong isn't much. Everyone from HE over Chaos to O&G brings such units, and more.

Quote
i dont think we have really many choises that wold be considered not competitive,  and to me those choises are millitia, and probably the rocket for the war machine ( that is a piece of junk)  our BS shooting still has a place as detachments for anti chaff in my mind i still take a couple small units just for that reason.

Then look at people voting with their feet: Halberdiers, ICK, DGK, Cannon, Blaster. The rest is taken "for fun games", or "to try something out". Nope, no huge choice I'm afraid if you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot.

Quote
this complaining thing happens every time a new book comes out it was just like this when we went from 6th to 7th ed and now from 7th to 8th, i would ratehr discuss the possibillities of what we have than whine about what we lost.

Writing in this thread wasn't a smart move then. Fandir made one for Fan-bois which will be more to your liking. Of course that happened with all new books, so I can't be arsed to look it up.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: LegionsofOdin on October 01, 2012, 06:01:35 AM
i think there will be a few notable competitive builds (as we are empire ) calvary everyone can see that happening since we have tons of choises for that, we cant swarm our infentry like skaven can but we have bubble buffs to take the edge  and better leadership  so i would exspect to see line apaun line of infentry as some major tournaments also and i am sure most people will mix and match,

A few, as in several? I don't see that. Cavalry has not changed at all, so there's no reason it would be better. You might with some squeezing get a single knight more than in the old book but that's about it. To be honest, I would be surprised if you had the body count of the past book because you need to spend hundreds of points on dozens of buffs, or the knights fall off their horsies.

I agree, we cannot swarm opponents, which is why I don't understand the term "line upon line". That again implies a multitude. As a matter of fact and not idle speculation, Empire armies contain two units, which even @50 strong isn't much. Everyone from HE over Chaos to O&G brings such units, and more.

yes  as a few i mean several, calvary have changed alot in this book, core calvary got a little cheaper, we gained a unit of calvary that is stubborn and monsterous cavaly, as for needing dozens of buffs hardly, a huranicrum or luminark a lvl 4 and a couple of warrior priests hardly changes from what any other empire build has

your average army brings 2 hoard of troops yes but that doesnt mean we cant bring "line apaun line" at your standard 2500 point game you could easily bring 6 hoards of 40 halberdiers and still have 1000 points for support and characters i was really just trying to put out that we have options and lots of them jsut because the meta is such does not mean that i would exspect to see only your typical list in tournaments like 'ard boys. i would be shocked not to see somebody playing an empire army with hoards of intentry to the max or an army with only cavalry.
Quote
i dont think we have really many choises that wold be considered not competitive,  and to me those choises are millitia, and probably the rocket for the war machine ( that is a piece of junk)  our BS shooting still has a place as detachments for anti chaff in my mind i still take a couple small units just for that reason.

Then look at people voting with their feet: Halberdiers, ICK, DGK, Cannon, Blaster. The rest is taken "for fun games", or "to try something out". Nope, no huge choice I'm afraid if you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot.

those units are the easiest to use yes i will agree on that and require the least support and strategy to use, but there is no reason why with a skilled player the other options could not be competitive.  they all have a purpose. and can be effective, now i am not saying that i would take a unit of pistoliers and charge them into some enemy hoard but that one unit of pistoliers could potentially run that enemy unit around the board. its not always fire power that wins the games.

Quote
this complaining thing happens every time a new book comes out it was just like this when we went from 6th to 7th ed and now from 7th to 8th, i would ratehr discuss the possibillities of what we have than whine about what we lost.

Writing in this thread wasn't a smart move then. Fan-dir made one for Fan-bois which will be more to your liking. Of course that happened with all new books, so I can't be arsed to look it up.

i belive this thread was made to discuss the most likely army build for the new empire book nso there is no reason why anything i have said should have been written elsewhere. the whole fan-boi comment though i have no understanding where you were trying to get with that.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 01, 2012, 06:29:18 AM
You have to complain otherwise you are a fanboi like critics even soubd ones are whining... this is the internet 0 and1 black and white
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: The Peacemaker on October 01, 2012, 06:35:06 AM
Someone should play the old book with old rules vs the new book with new rules.  I think I know the expected result....

Old TGM with Sword of Sigsmund and 4+ ward VS TGM with Runefang and OTS
Old priest's dispel dice would counter the new priests buffs
Old mortor and Hellstorm Rockets would win the game.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 01, 2012, 07:07:26 AM
i belive this thread was made to discuss the most likely army build for the new empire book nso there is no reason why anything i have said should have been written elsewhere. the whole fan-boi comment though i have no understanding where you were trying to get with that.

Then let me explain it to you: If you wish to ignore discussing subpar choices and the reasons for why they might fall into this category and instead only focus on "what we've got" the arguments lack a convincing basis and any conclusion will be foregone because it has morphed into the premise. It's not even so much about what we've lost; I really don't care about past books since we simply don't have those options but models, rules or trends that are bad in the current one.

I apologize if I reacted to harshly but I find dismissive statements like yours about whining insulting. They imply that the critics haven't put any thought into their opinion and is so often accompanied by the claim that they are just "too lazy to adapt" as to become one. It's the underlying notion that these PoV's are not worth a discussion that irks me.

You have to complain otherwise you are a fanboi like critics even soubd ones are whining... this is the internet 0 and1 black and white

My apologies extend to you too. This is exactly the point I am making. Calling other whiners for no good reason is apparently completely in order; the opposite using the very same structure for some unfathomable reason problematic...
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 01, 2012, 07:17:57 AM
Yes and reading your post i realized that my black and whiteing isnt helpful either...my opinion is based on better captains especially bsb stank hellblaster greatswords and halbardiers models i like that are truely horrific to face  for any opponent with an 8th edition army book cannons are still great
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 01, 2012, 07:26:48 AM
Some not all some 7 th army books ate in advantage skaven lizards and dark elves but try facing those with orks or tombkings before writing empire off as stated in another thread there is some candy in the book other army generals would really love in their army
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 01, 2012, 08:20:48 AM
Quite true. Walking in someone else's shoes can be quite illustrative, so thank-you for reminding me to change my perspective. In this light, Empire is not bad at all.

That doesn't change the fact that I wish for a faster redoing of older books every game I face some of the armies you've mentioned (although Elves are not nearly as bad as ****ven).
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 01, 2012, 08:45:11 AM
Then you have tame DE Generals....I think they have proper tools of destruction to deal with Skaven and Empire very easily.

Namely the Hydra, selection of Magic (Shadow, Death, Metall) combined with that silly spell that generates dice for them, magical items, Pendant of Khaeleth, sac dagger, banner of Hag Graef, red death, dragons egg etc. underpriced units spear elves, dark riders, black guard, hydra. Fortunately most DE players seem to be stuck with units they like and before long they will have a new army book with much less potential.

Spear Elves of their army with Shadow Magic = as much ouch as High Elves but compared to them they have much better magical items, for example a dual mage lord list with lvl 4 death and lvl 4 shadow, sac dagger for the death mage would mean one hell of a magic phase with death spells unleashed followed up by shadow spells powered due the death magic 5+ generate a power dice. With Ld of 9 they are rather above average for the basic spell add in the other kill spells and that there isnīt that much of a problem of a miscast purple sun as they are all at least ld of 5 you have THE death mages if you go lord and two lvl 2 death mages you can have the basic spell cast at 1 power dice at ld of 10 each turn twice....first you start going one dice power of darkness if you win you gain at least 2 dice with those two dice you go for some soul stealing and most likely get dice back. The potential of DE magic phases is ...horrific. Sniping Skaven characters that canīt make use of strength in numbers cripples the army it is game over as soon the grey seer or the leadership provider is gone ld 5 slaves are no issue at all stubborn or not.

That said.....yes 7th edition army books donīt compare well to 8th and yes that is an issue of Games Workshop and warhammer.

The internal balance of the books isnīt super di duper either but I think it is one of the better systems out there ....that or maybe the random factor is big enough that the imbalance can be countered by good rolls.

Warmachine wasnīt better balanced last time I played it people tell me it is much better now but I didnīt have the time to go back yet....even though I love the background and the models.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: JonMicDor on October 01, 2012, 08:48:44 AM
A few observations on my experiences w/ 8th so far, having played a few dozen games, including a competitive tourny:

Lords:
- Wizard: must take, Life has been good to me so far
- Grand Master w/ Runefang: strong
- Going to be testing General w/ Runefang on Pegasus - I'd like to take Gryphon, but can't usually fit the points, plus he's such an inviting target (though I do have the elf gryphon, hehe) - I just need something that can kill a damn Slann... Thoughts?
- I've tried the WAlter - I can't justify it when a couple of regular WP's can do almost just as well. Archlectors are completely unnecessary...

Heroes:
- Cpt BSB w/ my infantry bus - does the job
- WP w/ my infantry bus - crucial - getting prayers off makes or breaks you. Unfortunately a lot of opponents are figuring that out and dispelling those prayers is all too easy...
- Engineer (w/ Helblaster and Cannon. And Pigeon Bombs! - don't want to get into that discussion here, though, pls...)
- I've also been running Luthor Huss w/ my ICknights - you're only paying like 65 points extra for his special attack, a 4+ ward, +1 WS, and an extra prayer - I've been pretty happy with him. 
- Wizard - wish I had the points to take a lvl 1 or 2 ... never do. Come to think of it I never have the power dice, either. So, he's out.
- Witch Hunter - wish I had the points to try him out a couple of times.... never do. And he's so cheap! I always want to take him just to give my bus the magic resist...
 
Core:
- I run a Swordsmen bus w/ Halberd detach. I've mathammered swords vs. halberds to death, best I can tell, in comparing kills vs survivability compared to point cost - they're damn close with swords slightly ahead in most situations. That's assuming they don't have the WP's ward - which all too often I find they don't... Anyway, I don't expect my infantry to kill a whole lot - just hold and survive while my knights, gryphs, and tanks do the killing. I think Swords are a bit better for that.
- In said mathammering Spears and FCM come out well below Sword and Halperds.
- Xbows and HGuns are horrible, especially at the point cost - and I used to run like 40+ handguns... so sad... I try them over and over again and they don't perform (at the point cost), even as detachs
- Archers are pansies - hehe. I think they'd be good at screening, redirecting, etc. That's not my playstyle, though.
- Knights - take IC, thank the Lord they're core now - solid

Special:
- GS: love the models, love the concept, can never fit them in...
- Demis: I run four and they rarely disappoint. So good on the flanks...
- Reiksguard - again, can't justify them when I already have my ICs
- Pistoliers... love the concept, have the models, but they never hit squat... they took out a skaven warmachine in CC once, that's about all they've ever done for me...
- Outriders - again, love the concept, have the models - they hit a little better (on 5s rather than the Pistol's 6s usually) but if an enemy even looks at them wrong they fall over dead
- Cannon: been taking one or two - I think I'm gonna settle on one (and 2 STanks, hehe)
- Mortar - poor mortar....
 
Rare:
- Helblaster: so good now, especially w/ engineer. The psychological impact is amazing. Wish two of these and two tanks was an option...
- Helstorm is some crap now, eh?
- Steamtank: almost always the all-star, even if he misfires twice or so each game. W/ a great cannon, impact hits, tar pitability... Any unit that opponents celebrate about killing like it's a lifetime achievement.. yea. I'm building my second one now - I'll be taking max tanks every game.


There's my 2 pfennigs...

Tournament I went 3-2, btw - lost to a HE that irresistible Pit-of-Shaded and irresistible Mind-Razored me to absolute destruction with his #$%#! Book of Hoeth and lost to an ogre in a close game w/ some bad tactical decisions on my part. Beat another Ogre pretty good, pulled out a close one against a O&G squig list, and annihilated another empire player.

Anyway, thanks for the thread - good to see these kind of general ideas bounced around.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 01, 2012, 08:54:33 AM
Jonmicdor....run your pistoliers into close range the perform rather well there

-1 multiple shot is the only penalty so you will hit on 5+ stand and shoot will be on 6+ though even short ranged.

If you keep your opponents close and personal they are rather good light cav.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 01, 2012, 09:08:57 AM
Then you have tame DE Generals...

Probably, although their Hydras are much like my cannon: Duds all over the place. I haven't seen a Hydra survive a game or kill anything in the last 12 months.

JonMicDor, a couple of points:

- WP's cannot do what the Waltar does.
- Prayers are not crucial for a bus unless you're in a really tight spot. Prayers are always a bonus only.
- Reichsguard aren't ICK. Stubborn just serves a different purpose, tactically, and it might be a nod to flavour and background.
- Pistoliers shouldn't have a problem getting into short range, so OR hardly hit better.
- I wish my models would have a psychological effect once.
- Max tanks sounds like a good idea, until you realize you've started an arms race that confronts you with double Aboms on the other side. I'd rather not.

Edit: What's wrong with the list feature...?
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 01, 2012, 09:14:32 AM
Stanks eat abombs for lunch and with fireball cannons they should be managable these days or firebally crossbows or......or or

the stank is a tough nut against most armies, dwarves, empire and skaven are in a sweet spot against them but even then it isnīt all good and glory as it has 10 wounds it canīt die to a single cannon ball or catapult or warp lightning cannon shot while the abomb has good chances to do this.

Do your oponents play the Hydra will all rules regarding it? especially the handler and monster rules basically granting the hydra yet another saving throw of 5+ after it has been wounded past its regeneration of 4+? It is fast it has 7 attacks with hatred and S5 it has thunderstomp and another breath weapon that starts out at S5......at 175 points it is insane! If it becomes a dud every game your cannons HAVE to be working even though you disagree on this one most of the times or your opponents like to fool around too long for maneuvering instead of just ramming it into one of your light to medium infantry blocks.
 It has good chances to kill well over 10 models on the charge against T3 or 4 models.
 
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 01, 2012, 09:53:51 AM
None of that helped the Hydra last game when it was HKB'ed by a Bret Lord kitted for murder. The game before I killed it with Knights + BotEF on the charge. My cannon hadn't anything to do with it. I know they were busy exploding in that game with the Knights, and these days they are usually sitting on the shelf, letting the other arms show them how it's done.

Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 01, 2012, 10:01:04 AM
I think 8th Empire can be viable without any shooting and that alone opens up a whole bag of options most guys have not tried yet.

I think the TDG show rather well how good a fast Empire army can perform even against tough nut enemies.

Heroic KB lords of slap a lot from the brets are something that can kill about everything rather fast.....steam tank? 7 attacks should do him in.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Alucard on October 01, 2012, 02:26:00 PM
ello'

The most common Empire build I've been seeing on the tournament scene is the 1+ armor save spam list.  Usually includes the following units:

Wizard Lord
Mounted Arch Lector/ Grand Master/ Karl Franz
BSB
Pegasus Captain
Unit of Inner Circle Knights
Unit of Knights
4 Demigryphs
4 Demigryphs
Steam Tank
Steam Tank

The book has alot of flexibility in it for play style, however, I don't know if an infantry list can be as efficient or more so then the list above.  Thoughts?  Is anyone else seeing this kinda list?  Do you think its the best our book has to offer?

My current Empire list that I'm building has similar elements, but I eschewed the knight blocks for a block of halberds and some utility.

Wizard Lord
Arch Lector
BSB
Pegasus Captain
Lv 1 Metal Wizard
50 Halberdiers
10 Archers
17 Crossbowmen
4 Demigryphs
Cannon
Steam Tank
Steam Tank
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: zifnab0 on October 01, 2012, 02:38:24 PM
ello'

The most common Empire build I've been seeing on the tournament scene is the 1+ armor save spam list.  Usually includes the following units:

Wizard Lord
Mounted Arch Lector/ Grand Master/ Karl Franz
BSB
Pegasus Captain
Unit of Inner Circle Knights
Unit of Knights
4 Demigryphs
4 Demigryphs
Steam Tank
Steam Tank
That's roughly my current list.  I take a warrior priest instead of the pegasus captain and units of 3 demigryphs.  This frees up enough points for a small unit or two of knights.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 01, 2012, 02:52:51 PM
I don't know if an infantry list can be as efficient or more so then the list above.  Thoughts?  Is anyone else seeing this kinda list?  Do you think its the best our book has to offer?

1. Yuk. TWO Stanks? That's a veritable traffic jam!
2. No. Mounted, cavalry, knights, yes, but not with TWO Stanks.
3. No. Infantry or CA will beat it regularly.

I do like the multitude of actual combat units though.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: commandant on October 01, 2012, 03:06:26 PM
It just doesn't seem likely a very interesting list to me.   No fluff and not much in the way of playing style or tactics.

I prefer my blocks of infantry.   Though I may go to the French ratio of 1-3 instead of the 1-5 I tend to use at the moment for Infantry to Cav
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: The Peacemaker on October 01, 2012, 06:43:17 PM

The most common Empire build I've been seeing on the tournament scene is the 1+ armor save spam list.  Usually includes the following units:

Wizard Lord
Mounted Arch Lector/ Grand Master/ Karl Franz
BSB
Pegasus Captain
Unit of Inner Circle Knights
Unit of Knights
4 Demigryphs
4 Demigryphs
Steam Tank
Steam Tank

The book has alot of flexibility in it for play style, however, I don't know if an infantry list can be as efficient or more so then the list above.  Thoughts?  Is anyone else seeing this kinda list?  Do you think its the best our book has to offer?

For the most all round competitive play I think this list is the best the book has to offer.
Demigryphs are THE best unit our book has to offer. Followed by the Steam Tank.

Knights vs Infantry - this you have to factor in what armies Empire faces in the field. Are they facing armies that can spam lore of metal or ranged/artillrey that can wipe out knights? or close combat units that ignore armour?(cause lets face it, against strength 5 or 6 empire knights still get a 3+ or 4+ save)
And for knights you have to factor in the points: are 3 swordsmen really worth 1 knight? are 4 halberd really worth an inner circle knight?(maybe)
If you find your enemies can easily deal with 1+ armour save cavalry then by all means throw in a halberd horde. If not then stick with knights. 
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Empire - Ulric on October 01, 2012, 07:40:02 PM
I find you really need at least 1 serious block of infantry.

Don't leave home without a Horde of Halberdiers/Swordsmen or Greastwords.

Watchtower without infantry = autolose.

Tables with buildings on them are a bitch without infantry. What are you gonna do when a wise opponent bunkers up his units in buildings?

Plus they work wonders on the big nasty units of strength 5/6 guys your opponent has that you don't want to get your knights anywhere near.

Look at the current TDG that Darkelf spear star was just begging for a horde of Halberdiers to get rammed into it, same thing with the 40 Executioners.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: MrAbyssal on October 02, 2012, 01:44:52 AM
i belive this thread was made to discuss the most likely army build for the new empire book nso there is no reason why anything i have said should have been written elsewhere. the whole fan-boi comment though i have no understanding where you were trying to get with that.

Then let me explain it to you: If you wish to ignore discussing subpar choices and the reasons for why they might fall into this category and instead only focus on "what we've got" the arguments lack a convincing basis and any conclusion will be foregone because it has morphed into the premise. It's not even so much about what we've lost; I really don't care about past books since we simply don't have those options but models, rules or trends that are bad in the current one.

I apologize if I reacted to harshly but I find dismissive statements like yours about whining insulting. They imply that the critics haven't put any thought into their opinion and is so often accompanied by the claim that they are just "too lazy to adapt" as to become one. It's the underlying notion that these PoV's are not worth a discussion that irks me.

You have to complain otherwise you are a fanboi like critics even soubd ones are whining... this is the internet 0 and1 black and white

My apologies extend to you too. This is exactly the point I am making. Calling other whiners for no good reason is apparently completely in order; the opposite using the very same structure for some unfathomable reason problematic...

Anyone reading this would think we'd all suddenly teleported to Warseer...
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 02, 2012, 04:39:06 AM
You really don't like debates, do you?
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: MrAbyssal on October 02, 2012, 06:19:40 AM
Debates I'm fine with. It's arguments I take issue with.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 02, 2012, 07:59:57 AM
So that's why you felt you had to step in and make some stupid remark in lieu of any argument?
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Calisson on October 02, 2012, 08:33:55 AM
Do your oponents play the Hydra will all rules regarding it? especially the handler and monster rules basically granting the hydra yet another saving throw of 5+ after it has been wounded past its regeneration of 4+?
Sorry that the thread partially derailed to anti DE rant. But reading that, it makes me feel that some DE opponents are abusing rules.
Contrary to how you seem to play locally, the H&M rule is superseded by DE army book. There is no randomization, therefore no such saving throw as you mention. If necessary, I could look after the relevant thread in Druchii.net, which left no doubt.

Back to topic.
There was a mention that 8th ed knights are no different from 7th ed knights, save for 1 meagre pt less, so there should be no reason for the present knight frenzy.
I beg to disagree. Actually, there is a subtle difference which explains this frenzy: WP. They healed the 7th ed rubber syndrome.
I'm surprised at Alucard's standard list, which seems not to include any WP. I suspect a typo.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: jaggedjimmyj on October 02, 2012, 09:36:36 AM
I'm not buying into the knights parade at all. Seems gimmicky to me, and frankly it should only work vs a few choice armies.
Skaven should devastate it, and dwarves should as well with their massive organs.

Versus VC I can see it working, but not vs all lists. A screamer list could wreak havoc vs small units, and KB GG isn't all fun and games either.
ASF Elves would be annoying since you'd start loosing attacks rather quickly.
Doom divers, bolt throwers, gob smackers, cock gobblers. You name it. There are just way too many things out there that can put the hurt on knights.

I deem the Knight's-list poor. But that's just my cup o' tea I suppose.
Title: Re: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus on October 02, 2012, 12:13:42 PM
Contrary to how you seem to play locally, the H&M rule is superseded by DE army book.

Quite so, that was nagging at me. Thanks for clearing it up, Calisson.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Knights. Heck, I even like the horses. Indeed, a couple of aspects has combined to make their inclusion more preferable (or palatable, depending on where you stand):

- cheaper Knights
- cheaper WP's
- more & arguably better prayers
- option for S4 core Knights
- option for S4 stubborn Knights
- option for monstrous cavalry Knights

Taken together, this opens up some interesting possibilities, especially when using two units in conjunction like one would with a detachment. Of course, against something like Slaves or Gobbos on one and White Lions/Mindrazored stuff on the other end Knights alone will struggle. Did I mention that in the last tourney - 1k - the Skaven player had three units of 75-100 models? Another Empire player fielded a fully mounted force and he was buried in bodies.

My infantry army lost as well, but at least I won each and every combat and had killed some 200 models. He just passed each and everyone of the 30 or so Ld tests he had to take...