Topic: A few questions about core rules

[Xathrodox86]

Yesterday I've played a friendly, 1000 pt game with my friend. While we've had a lot of fun, there were some questions as to the exact wording and meaning of the rules. Maybe you could help me out?

1. Can a unit who is about to charge, perform a reform first. My mate's unit of Ellyrian Reavers charged my band of Huntsmen from behind a rock. He had to roll first for a charge and made it, but also had to make a reform. Could he have done it? Oh it was a free reform, he didn't use his musician.

2. How many wheels (pivots) can a unit make, and how much does a pivot "cost" i.e. how many movement it actually uses up? An inch, a half an inch?

3. When a unit with additional ranks, charges another, does the charging unit can take supporting attacks? If so, are the attacks made only by riders or their mounts as well?

4. When a unit gets wrecked, which command model goes down first? I know that champion dies last.

5. Does the mage, who attempts a dispell, needs to bit a total cost of the spell (inlcuding his opponents level) or simply the power level that was rolled by the dice?

6. When a cavalry pursues a fleeing unit, how many dice is used to do this? I know that normal units use 2D6. Is it 3D6 with discarding the lowest result? What about heavy cavalry with barding? On topic, can a unit that overruns a fleeing unit, and will continue to go on, reform and ovrrun into another nearby unit, or does the enemy need to be directly in a straigt line of the charger?

I know that these questions may seem strange, but we've found yesterday that the rulebook doesn't cover all possibilities that occur during a battle. We've still had a lot of fun, but hopefully next time we won't need to check the rules constantly.

[Jomppexx]

I'm gonna try answer as well as I can.

1. Ellyrian reavers are fast cavalry and fast cavalry can perform unlimited reforms and move in any formation.

2. A unit can pivot as many times per movement phase as it wants, as long as it has enough movement. You measure this by keeping one corner of the unit on the point (don't move it) and the other side starts turning.

3. Charging units can make supporting attacks. In the case of say knights the riders can attack as per normal supporting attack rules, but only the mounts in base-to-base contact can attack, no supporting attacks for mounts. Do note that monstrous infantry get a maximum of 3 supporting attacks.

4. Not sure, I think standard dies first? Check it out from the rulebook, or wait for Fidelis to reply.

5. I play it like this : Say a level 4 mage casts a spell that has a casting value of 14+. The casting wizard rolls 3 dice and gets 3,6,4, totaling to 13 from dice +4 for the levels, so 17 in total. The dispel roll must reach 17 or more to dispel the spell. So in short, you have to beat what was rolled by the caster + the wizards level.

6. Not sure. I have played it as 3D6, discard lowest for any models with Swift strider, but there have been debates whether its 2D6 or 3D6 and discard lowest. I can confirm that heavy cavalry with barding roll for this in the same fashion.
Pursuers may not reform, you can choose to restrain and reform instead of pursuing, unless you have frenzy.
If a unit starts pursuing another and there is another enemy unit directly in front of it, say 6 inches away, and the pursuer rolls over 6" the pursuing unit will charge in to combat with the new enemy unit.

[Xathrodox86]

Thanks for the reply. I have another question: when a unit charges it always rolls 2D6, regardless of the unit's type. Cavalry and infantry and everything else are treated equally here right?

As for the cavalry and formation? Only fast cavalry can move in any formation? What about heavy cavalry? If I'd need to "squeeze" them in order to ride through a narrwo gap can I do this, even if it'd meant that they'd be 3-wide?

Also can a unit reform (not wheel) and then charge in the same turn or is it impossible?

So many questions...

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The BRB does in fact cover all your questions.

1. No. BRB p. 68 (Fast Cavalry):
Free reform: Unless it charges, a Fast Cavalry unit is allowed to reform as many times as it wishes during its move, even if it marches, provided that no model ends up moving a number of inches higher than double its Movement value. [Italics mine]

Note that  you cannot charge after a Swift reform either, because that takes place during the Remaining Moves sub-phase (BRB p. 95).

2.
In the case of normal movement:
BRB p. 14: "When a unit performs a wheel, every model counts as having moved as far as the outside model. Once the wheel is complete, you may use any movement that the unit has remaining. A unit that is not charging can wheel several times during its move, and indeed can mix forward movement and wheeling, as long as it has enough movement to do so. Units are not allowed to wheel backwards."

In the case of a charge (BRB p. 20), "the unit must move straight ahead, except that, during this move, it may make a single wheel of up to 90°." This wheel is free, as a "charging unit can move an unlimited amount — it's already been found to be within charge range, so we don't worry about distance from this point on" (loc. cit).

3. Charging units can make supporting attacks as normal. However, in the case of units that have the Fight in Extra ranks special rule, "supporting attacks can be made by an extra rank than normal on a turn in which the unit did not charge" (BRB p.69). [Italics mine]

BRB p. 82: "When a cavalry model makes supporting attacks, only the rider can strike — we assume that the mount lacks both the discipline and the reach to fight through those ahead of it."  This applies to Monstrous Cavalry too.

4. BRB p. 95: "If only the standard bearer and/or the unit champion remain beside the musician then the musician must be the next casualty."
Keep in mind that a champion can be slain earlier, if he is specifically targeted. 

5. BRB p. 35: "If the dispel result equals or exceeds the spell's casting result, the dispel is successful and the spell does not take effect." 

However, in the case of RiP spells (BRB p. 36): "a Wizard does not need to beat the original casting dice roll if attempting a dispel in subsequent turns, but rather the minimum casting value listed in the spell's description (so there is no need to make note of each spell's casting roll). For this reason, remains in play spells cast with irresistible force can be dispelled as normal in subsequent turns."

6. BRB p. 82: "Cavalry have the Swiftstride rule."  This applies also to Monstrous cavalry and is not affected by barding (as that is not specified by the BRB). 

BRB p.76: "When fleeing and pursuing, units entirely made of models with the Swiftstride special rule roll 3D6 and discard the lowest result."

BRB p. 57:  "A unit that does not pursue can perform a reform manoeuvre."  You can either attempt to restrain or pursue/overrun.

During pursuit, "you move straight forward a number of inches equal to the amount rolled on the dice."

However (BRB p 58), "If a pursuit move would take the pursuer into contact with an enemy unit, then the pursuers must charge the enemy unit.
Carry out the charge as you would in the Movement phase, following all the normal restrictions. However, you do not need to roll for the charge range — we already know from the pursuit roll that these unwitting chargers have momentum to reach the foe, whether they wished to or not. The charging unit must wheel and close the door in such a way as to maximise contact, as they would with a normal charge."

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I have another question: when a unit charges it always rolls 2D6, regardless of the unit's type. Cavalry and infantry and everything else are treated equally here right?

Swiftstride also affects charging. BRB p. 76: "When charging, units entirely made of models with the Swiftstride special rule roll 3D6, discard the lowest result, and add the result to their Move value."

As for the cavalry and formation? Only fast cavalry can move in any formation? What about heavy cavalry? If I'd need to "squeeze" them in order to ride through a narrwo gap can I do this, even if it'd meant that they'd be 3-wide?

Unless specified otherwise, only Fast Cavalry has the Free Reform special rule (which as explained above does not apply when charging).

Also can a unit reform (not wheel) and then charge in the same turn or is it impossible?

As already answered above, you cannot reform and charge (unless specified otherwise).

[Jomppexx]

I'll throw a question at Fidelis that has been bothering me for a while.

Since a unit champion can be specifically targeted in an attempt to kill him, do unit champion take dangerous terrain tests?
Say if a unit of 10 knights move trough dangerous terrain, do I take 10 normal tests or do I take 9 tests for regular knights and 1 test for the champion?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As BRB p. 117 specifies, Dangerous Terrain tests are taken by individual models, not the unit. Some models in a unit might be required to take the test, others not. As such, you would need to take "9+1" test (provided all 10 knights are in fact required to take the test).

[Xathrodox86]

Thank you, that was very informative. I have another one tough. When a unit takes 25% casualties from either shooting or magic, does it need to take a test of LD with modifiers based on loses it sustained, or none at all i.e base LD?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Usually the base Ld. However, this can be modified by e.g. augment or hex spells, but not by casualties. Modifiers from casualties are usually only applied when taking Break Tests.

[Xathrodox86]

Usually the base Ld. However, this can be modified by e.g. augment or hex spells, but not by casualties. Modifiers from casualties are usually only applied when taking Break Tests.

You mean break tests in CC? This was also a break test. The shot unit lost more than 25% of it's troops.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Break Tests are only ever taken in CC; Panic Tests are never taken in CC.

[carmaul]

You mean break tests in CC? This was also a break test. The shot unit lost more than 25% of it's troops.

Also, you cannot shoot into combat unless a rule specifies that you can. (ie. Skaven Slaves)

[Xathrodox86]

You mean break tests in CC? This was also a break test. The shot unit lost more than 25% of it's troops.

Also, you cannot shoot into combat unless a rule specifies that you can. (ie. Skaven Slaves)

No, no. It was due to his Lothern Seaguard shooting the crap out of my Pistoliers. Still, two of them survived.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Yes, that is a Panic test. A Break test is only taken, after you have lost a round of CC.

For completeness: note that a unit does not take Panic tests (BRB p. 62) if
- in close combat,
- it is fleeing   
- it has passed one earlier in that phase. 

[Syn Ace]

5. BRB p. 35: "If the dispel result equals or exceeds the spell's casting result, the dispel is successful and the spell does not take effect." 

However, in the case of RiP spells (BRB p. 36): "a Wizard does not need to beat the original casting dice roll if attempting a dispel in subsequent turns, but rather the minimum casting value listed in the spell's description (so there is no need to make note of each spell's casting roll). For this reason, remains in play spells cast with irresistible force can be dispelled as normal in subsequent turns."

And just to add a small note on RIP spells because I see people making this mistake frequently: a RIP spell will say RIP in its description. Many spells have an effect that carries over to the next turn and then ends (buffs and hexes in particular); however, these are not RIP spells, so you can only attempt to dispel them immediately after your enemy casts them and not in your magic phase, as you can attempt to do with a true RIP spell.

I have had a player let a buff through so he could dispel a big nasty spell, thinking he could get rid of my buff before the next combat on his turn.

[Xathrodox86]

Two more questions coming.

When a unit with a Hero, Lord or SC of any kind breaks, what happens to said character? Does he run with his men, or can he stay behind?

When I have a unit of, let's say 5 pistoliers, and not enough space to manouver them easily, can I make them into 3x2 unit, or do I have to stick with 5, because it's the minimal rank requirement. While we're at it, can I do the same with any other unit like KO or State Troops etc?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

1. He breaks with them.

2. There is no requirement for any unit that a rank must have at least 5 models in a formation; that is only a requirement for a rank bonus when determining combat resolution or steadfast.

[Xathrodox86]

1. He breaks with them.

2. There is no requirement for any unit that a rank must have at least 5 models in a formation; that is only a requirement for a rank bonus when determining combat resolution or steadfast.

Thanks for the answer, bit... is there an actuall possibilty for a unit to have a front rank of 3, and second rank of 5? Just curious really.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

BRB p. 5: "As far as possible there must be the same number of models in each rank. Where this is not possible it must be the rear rank that has fewer models."

[Xathrodox86]

Here's a couple more.

- Doing our last battle my friend charged my unit with his Phoenix Guard. After declaring charge and moving his unit into contact with mine, we moved to the magic phase. He then casted the Fiery Convocation on my other unit of Halberds and a couple of more spells in subsequent turns. Can he do that? Can he cast spells in CC?

- My Theodore Bruckner was charged by his Silver Helms. I've then issued a challenge to his Noble with BSB which he accepted. After two turns the noble was dead, but we didn't knew what to do next. Is the charge resolved as normal, or does the victor remain a 1' or 2' from the unit, which housed the loser of the duel?

- Terror. Reaper, the Demigryph causes terror. However due to rulebook, Terror can only work, when the unit or character causing it charges the enemy. In case when it is charged, terror dosen't work. Is this true?

That's it for now, I guess.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

1. BRB p. 34: "Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat." Unless specified otherwise, of course, but that is not the case with Fiery Convocation.
However, it is possible to cast certain spells out of CC (which seems what you are asking here).

2.  The charge is is always resolved as normal and while you preferably do move challengers in btb contact with each other, you do not move them out of the unit.  It is just that those in a challenge cannot be attacked by others.

Official Update Version 1.9, p. 11:
Q: After accepting a challenge must the challenged model always move into base contact with the enemy model that issued the challenge? (p102)
A: If the challenged model is on his own then he must move into base contact. If the challenged model is in a unit he must move as long as it does not require leaving his unit. Where it is not possible for base contact to be made then leave the models where they are and simply assume that the two models are in base contact.

3. That is correct.

BRB p. 78: "If a Terror-causing creature declares a charge, the target unit must immediately take a panic test to quell their Terror. If the test is passed, all is well and the unit can declare charge reactions normally. If the test is foiled, the unit must make a Flee! charge reaction."

However, do not forget that, if you cause Terror, you also cause Fear (including in units that cause Fear themselves).

[Xathrodox86]

1. BRB p. 34: "Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat." Unless specified otherwise, of course, but that is not the case with Fiery Convocation.
However, it is possible to cast certain spells out of CC (which seems what you are asking here).

The mage WAS in CC, i.e. he and his unit were base to base with my halberdiers and he was still casting spells on other unit, which was nearby. Could he do that?

2.  The charge is is always resolved as normal and while you preferably do move challengers in btb contact with each other, you do not move them out of the unit.  It is just that those in a challenge cannot be attacked by others.

Official Update Version 1.9, p. 11:
Q: After accepting a challenge must the challenged model always move into base contact with the enemy model that issued the challenge? (p102)
A: If the challenged model is on his own then he must move into base contact. If the challenged model is in a unit he must move as long as it does not require leaving his unit. Where it is not possible for base contact to be made then leave the models where they are and simply assume that the two models are in base contact.

So after the challenge has been resolved, his Silver Helms were permitted to resolve the charge against my Bruckner?

3. That is correct.

BRB p. 78: "If a Terror-causing creature declares a charge, the target unit must immediately take a panic test to quell their Terror. If the test is passed, all is well and the unit can declare charge reactions normally. If the test is foiled, the unit must make a Flee! charge reaction."

However, do not forget that, if you cause Terror, you also cause Fear (including in units that cause Fear themselves).

And Fear is caused by units, even if they do not charge their opponents?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The mage WAS in CC, i.e. he and his unit were base to base with my halberdiers and he was still casting spells on other unit, which was nearby. Could he do that?

Unless specified otherwise, a Wizard cannot cast spells into CC, but he can cast spells out of CC. Or in other words: a Wizard in CC can cast spells on units that are not in CC themselves. Unless, as usual, the spell itself has some restriction, e.g. magic missiles, which "cannot be cast at all if the Wizard (or his unit) is engaged in close combat" (BRB p.31). 

So after the challenge has been resolved, his Silver Helms were permitted to resolve the charge against my Bruckner?

The charge is immediately resolved, and Bruckner is already in CC with the Silver Helmets - they just cannot harm him.
You move the Silver Helmets in btb with Bruckner. Having issued a challenge, you shuffle the models in such a way, that both models in the challenge are in btb (if that was not already the case). You do not lift any model out of its unit. If for some reason, you cannot bring them in btb, you just assume that they are.
Remember that after each round of CC, the losing side needs to take a Break test. For the calculation of CR, any boni the Silver Helmets have (rank/standard/musician in case of a tie) will apply. So, in the first round of CC, the HE will have +1 CR for charging.
Of course, in this particular case, if Bruckner loses, he automatically passes the Break test, as he is Unbreakable in a challenge.

And Fear is caused by units, even if they do not charge their opponents?

Yes.
BRB p.69: "At the start of each Close Combat round, a unit that is in base contact with one or more enemy models that cause Fear must take a Leadership test, before any blows are struck."

[Xathrodox86]

That helped, thanks Fidelis!

[Syn Ace]

Fear (and Terror) isn't quite as potent as it used to be -- but having the ability to drop an opponent's weapon skill down to 1 in the current round of CC can help out.