Topic: 8th edition on route.

[phillyt]

Yeah, they must have been referring to the Indexes only!

[Mathi Alfblut]

Probably, but then, softback versions may come in a few month, if we are lucky.

Still, I guess I will have to get this one, and then Astra Militarium and finally Tau for my youngest son. That is about 1000 swedish crowns. Ouch! But still, I feel it may be worth it getting some good gaming once again!

After all, Kings of War is so cheap compared and so is Frostgrave so I guess it makes up for it. 

[Aldaris]

FAQ has been updated.

Some players complained about armies that just spammed Stormravens or other strong flyers, with just an HQ unit or two to go with them. That has been adressed - flyers now no longer count for the purposes of averting sudden death victories, meaning you have no models on the table.

Elegant solution, I like it.

[Gankom]

That is a nice solution. Flyers are still powerful, but can't be abused. Now you actually need something to hold the ground. Good ol'infantry.

[Darknight]

Elegant solution, I like it.

I hope this strategy - of updating the rules to avoid issues which spoil the game - continues. It would be a significant improvement over previous editions.

[Finlay]

flyers.
Nothing but problems since release!

down with flyers!
down with flyers!

[Aldaris]

One or two aren't really problematic I think. Especially now that supersonic only gives -1 to hit, and not "hit on 6s unless skyfire".

[phillyt]

So as a whole, fliers are actually easier to hit and down than before.  Those 6's to hit were brutal.  What is creating an issue are two sets of fliers in particular, Stormraven swarm and Valkyries.  Both are tough and can carry troops.  The new rule they added will have some impact, though I don't think its that big of a change.  Being required to have something other than a flier on the table at the end of turn 1 isn't that difficult to do.

[Aldaris]

Sudden death can trigger at the end of EVERY turn, not just turn 1. So you auto-lose by tabling at the end of any turn in which you only have flyers on the board.

And I'm not sure I'd include Valks as problematic, since they can't shoot for shit. Stormravens can.

[phillyt]

Yeah but its really only turn 1thats an issue.  For the most part, people fly up and drop their payload, which then annihilates the enemy while the Ravens zip about.

I threw Valks in because I thought they were seeing use with similar purpose.

[Aldaris]

As far as I've seen, the complaint wasn't even about Ravens dropping stuff into your lines. Most armies can go for turn one or two charges now in some way. It was about people taking just Girlyman and as many Ravens as they could, resulting in fucktons of rerollable dakka in a package that makes most counterfire less than effective. In other words, stuff that you'll likely never see in actual play unless you're a serious tournament guy.

Still, I do like that new GW spotted a problem within days that was gaining some traction online, found a fix that didn't involve "uhhhh... make every model in that build 150 points more expensive I guess?" and put it out in record time. Shows they're willing to adress issues as they become apparent, which is great.

[phillyt]

I had though in most cases it was dump devastator squads into good positions after having minimum first turn drops and then venting everything on the enemy.

And totally agree, love that GW is actually watching what is happening and finding ways to address it!

[Midaski]

Ok - so now things are starting to settle and people have had a chance to play where are we with the rules and what books you need to buy:

There was much early hype about FREE rules - I understand a free pdf of what I gather is the basic rules is available, BUT there is a hard copy version of these rules:

Is it exactly the same or does it have more rules and/or more fluff?
How much?

Then there was mention of 5 more books - which seemed to be more expansive overviews of various 'groups' of armies.
From what I have read you may need one or more of these?
How much?

Lastly - codexes. I have recently seen people talking about what I assume is a hardback SM codex?
It wasn't as cheap as expected?
Softback versions are going to happen or is that speculation?


So in essence to play the game reasonably seriously if you want to be prepared to face any race, you will need:

One main rulebook
Five expanded books
Umpteen individual codexes

What's the expected outlay on that lot?

 

[Finlay]

the 5 expanded books are essentially 5 "Ravening Hordes" style books to tide us over until codexes.

I didn't buy any of those, will just buy the actual codexes I want.

[Aldaris]

The free rules booklet has all the rules of the game as such. It doesn't have all the mission rules though, which you'll definitely want. So I would recommend getting the rulebook, which is 30 I think? 35?

Since 8th Edition invalidated all existing codices, GW issued a bunch of indices (those are the 5 more books) that have rules for every unit in the game. 2 for Xenos, 2 for Imperium, 1 for Chaos, at 15 quid each. Those came out at the start of the edition to make everything playable at a Basic level. Do you need all of them? Not really, no. The one with your army in it is sufficient. It's nice having them though.

Finally, every army is going to get their own codex, as has always been the case. GW has announced they will release 10 of them this year. That includes more in-depth army special rules, stratagems, relics etc. That may not completely invalidate the Indexes though - GW already said that if a unit is not in the codex (apparently they left out some like librarians on bikes that do not have models) but in the index, simply use the most up to date datasheet for it that's available.

So, the expected outlay? Depends on what you want. If you play Ultramarines for example - rulebook and codex would be enough, that's 65 at current prices (hardback both). Throw in the index, that's another 15.

[Midaski]

Thanks - in my gaming existence, for some reason, I have a tendency to want the 'set' 

I mainly have IG and then a small force of Sisters - which I nearly bought the "Agents of the Imperium" (?) book, which from what you say is now obsolete, but from what I read covered across more than one Index?

I also have a few orks.

In the past in Fantasy and in 40K the various races had lots of special rules and it was a good idea to have the 'opposition' army book/codex - do you think this 40k edition will be the same?

Now I am a pensioner I have to watch the pennies ................ 

[Aldaris]

I mainly have IG and then a small force of Sisters - which I nearly bought the "Agents of the Imperium" (?) book, which from what you say is now obsolete, but from what I read covered across more than one Index?

I also have a few orks.

IG and Sisters are both in the Imperium II index. Imperium I is all the Marines stuff.
Orks are Xenos I I think?

It certainly never hurts to know what your opponents stuff can do. That said, the rules got a whole lot less opaque. Apart from army-wide rules like Acts of Faith on the Sisters (which are explained on the armies' intro page) USRs are pretty much gone. Every relevant rule is usually written out on a units datasheet, often down to weapon stats for all the options.

[phillyt]

I know many people dislike doing this by 3++ still has most of the data sheets in their forums.  I have the Imperial 1 and Xeno 2 indexes since thats the majority of my army.  But I also grabbed the Ork book off the 3++ forum so its on my phone during games while my buddy uses my Index for his Tyranids.

Orks:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/orks-full-8th-edition-leak/

New Spacemarine codex comes out next week.  I play Dark Angels so it doesn't really help me!

[Midaski]

Ha - Philly - Thanks but with my eyesight ...................... 

[phillyt]

Ha, I hear that!  I end up zooming in so far I can read the entire sheet!

[FR1DAY]

You really only need the rule book and imperium II. Wait till the codexs come out to buy any more. The free rules do give you one mission so itll be a good idea to have a game using that before you commit.

I personally love the new rules. The index lists are a bit bland, but the codexs will fill all this detail back in. We played tonight, 2000pts and took just over two hours. Its my third game, but we have got the rules down now, they ar pretty simple. I find my self looking for a more complex rule, but it isnt there anymore, which is nice.  It is quite brutal in terms of killing stuff, be prepared to take units off early.

Guard codex before xmas they say.

[Gankom]

Just had my first real game against a real opponent. it took us three hours, but that's because we both took forever discussing every rule change and broke for smoke breaks frequently. I like the game a lot. There's some stuff that's real similar to the old fantasy rules, I think it'll be quicker once we know it, and it definitely seems more streamlined. I played guard and got rinced, but that was because of the Fate of Konor event. My game store is doing the special event each Thursday for it, and each Thursday is a new scenario to be played. My gun lineish guard ended up being required to advance through a space marine battleline made up of mostly assault troopers. It didn't go well.

At one point I could do my entire turn in 15 minutes. All my shooting from 7+ units, moving, orders, everything. Didn't feel rushed either.

[StealthKnightSteg]

I have done now 4 battles, 3x 500 points (2x vs AdMech (both losses though if the 2nd game continued I could have won) and 1 vs Necrons (won)) and 1 1k point game versus Heretics (won, will be a battlereport of soon).
2 times the basic mission and 2 times a maelstrom game (at 500 points I would not suggest to do a maelstrom game there are just to few units on the table). Everything is nicely streamlined, though with rolling for attacks you really should look out for when to single roll multiple dice or fast rolling as it can have a major impact on the results.

Comparing with old WHFB (As I don't have a reference of the old 40K) It just seems to be more time to have fun with the "narative" feel of the battle with what some dice rolls are doing to the game (My Commander fluffed all his Fusion Blaster attacks versus a Leman Russ tank on the wound rolls, but killed a solo Mutant that was chargeing at him on overwatch.. he looked more frightning I think.

[FR1DAY]

Pics of next months WD are up. Grey knights and chaos marine codexs out this month. Both at £25.
For GK it looks like they are only releasing the new special character individually. Though a grand master can be equipped with a dread knight chassis! There is even a conversion guide no less.
No mention of chaos marine releases model wise.

[Aldaris]

The Chaos book doesn't have rules for all the legions though, so some of them (Death Guard and Thousand Sons for example) will be getting their own book.

Still, I'm a  little sad that the core range of CSM won't be updated for the time being. Most of the models are very dated at this point, and quite tiny compared to current loyalist and newer CSM models. As soon as there's a new Berzerker box out I'll be getting some of those. Always had a thing for the World Eaters!

On the other hand it's good that there isn't an update currently - means I won't be tempted away from working on the Blood Pact.