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Author Topic: 2250pt no comp tourny.  (Read 1401 times)

Offline The Peacemaker

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2250pt no comp tourny.
« on: May 16, 2015, 10:38:21 PM »
Modified list in lower posts

Hey guys. I signed up for my first tourney and its basically no comp.
Its got 4 scenarios - rulebook so there is a fortitude one.
We are allowed the foreworld stuff like chaos dwarfs, monster arcana, storm of magic. No end times. Recent FAQ's.


I don't have all the models for a pure netlist empire army. Also, the 2 stank, max demigryph is the 1+ armour meta so I expect people to be able to counter it fairly well by now. So I'm thinking of a few adjustments so I don't get rock/paper/scissored


So this is just off the top of my head. I don't have my book with me so I can check exact points later and this is just initial draft anyway.
Basically the Magic is to get some toughness debuff spells so I can hit stuff with mortars if they got blocks of stuff. I threw in the level 2 death as scroll caddy- I can switch it or take it out.
I think the mortars will do great against the elf heavy meta. So even if I don't get the toughness debuff spell they will still work.
Anyway, there is lots of wiggle room in the lords/heroes section. I'm taking the Pegasus Captain for sure so I might make him my BSB.
I still have to fill up my core.  Not sure if I should take some knights or just more archers.
Perhaps my magic is too heavy and I should just take a hellblaster, egineer instead.

Basicaly my overall tactic is to whittle the enemy with shooting so my demi-grpyhs and halberds can run them down.


Level 4 of Shadow: Earthing Rod   225
Captain: Pegasus(swift wind), Plate, shield, Dragon Helm, ASF sword. BSB?
Level 2 of Death: dispel scroll  125

50 Halberds: Banner   310
5 archers   35
5 archers   35

10 Archers: Banner   80

4 Demigryphs: Musician   242
3 Demigryphs: musician   184


Cannon   120
Cannon   120
Cannon   120
Mortar   100
Mortar   100

Steam Tank   250


Also in my model collection I only have the 7 demi-gryphs and 1 steam tank. I can convert another steam tank if really needed. I also don't mind buying 3 more demi-grpyhs but would prefer not too since 9th edition is right around the corner.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 06:29:48 AM by The Peacemaker »
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Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: 2250pt no comp tourny.
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2015, 12:19:17 AM »
(( The Peacemaker,

Just some quick thoughts.

1) Right now your army LD sits around the 7 - 8 range... which can be unreliable.  A BSB would go a long way in making your 7 - 8 more reliable.  Don't forget, BSBs let you re-roll all LD tests (Panic, Fear, Swift Reform, Restrain Pursuit, etc.)

2) The Earthing Rod is... definitely a YMMV item.  Even when 6d6-casting spells, you only really have a 25% chance to get Irresistable Force.  And, a number of the Miscast Results really aren't that bad.  You might be able to save some points and drop it.

3) I've found that Heavens works better with Shadow.  Heaven's Default spell (Frozen Fractured Ice-Shard Blizzard Blast of Freezing Cold... or whatever it's called), synergizes very well with Miasma.  Miasma to reduce their WS... and then further penalize their to-hit roll with a further -1 from the Blizzard.  Also, since you aren't bringing any Warrior Priests, the Harmonic Convergence will help you when you get a splattering of "1" results.

3-A) With the Empire LD 7, the default spell of Death is going to be difficult to succeed with, since you said you're going against Elf-heavy armies.  Also, Death tends to have short-ranged spells... so you'd have to be willing to be riskier with your Mage's location.

3-B) Also, Wind Blast works well against Miasma-ed troops as well.  Now, not only do you slow down their Movement stat, but you push them back out of formation and out of them charging you... but not you charging them.

4) For your Pegasus, I'd suggest Iron Hard Hooves over Swift as the Winds.  The Pegasus already has 10" + 3k2" for charge movements... and, even if you get a "1" on a charge move, the re-roll still needs to be higher than the next lowest die result to matter.

4-A) In contrast, the Pegasus has a free Stomp that auto-hits (with some restrictions to targets).  Being able to re-roll that auto-hit's to-wound roll means you can reliably cause 1 additional wound against T5 targets... and threaten T6.  Sometimes causing that extra wound is enough to win combat.

4-B) I'd also suggest a Pistol for your Pegasus rider.  BS 5 with a Pistol gives him a solid threat radius, and you plink away one elf, you've paid for the Pistol.

4-C) Getting the ASF sword (Sword of Swift Slaying) plays into the hands of the elves, more than helps you.  They already start with ASF, and the basic-stat-line to support it.  Not to mention, it just now means that both sides attacks are happening simultaneously.  Over the Sword of Swift Slaying, I'd suggest a magic sword that increases strength, or some type of ward save... like Ulric's Cloak (though you'd have to drop the Dragonhelm to get the cloak).  Ulric's Cloak makes it harder to hit your White Knight... and if that unit is also blasted by the Heaven's default spell, now they're attacking your White Knight at -2 to hit in melee.

4-C-1) Also, don't forget that your White Knight has T4, and a 2+ armor save (1+ if you're using the Dragonhelm).  That goes a long way to absorbing damage.

5) For your Halberd block, I'd suggest full command.  Musician, if nothing else, for Swift Reform.  Champion to increase the density of attacks.

6) On your block of 10 archers, I'd suggest a Musician or Champion over the Standard bearer.  Our missile troops don't do shocktrooping very well... and if you lose the banner in the archers (highly likely), you're giving your opponent some free 50 VPs.

7) For your Demigryphs, I'd also suggest full command.  It increases the density of attacks, and adds to their static CR bonus. 

7-A) Demigryphs can also get magic banners as well, if you want them too.

7-B) Just be judicious with their fights.  Yes, if the Demigryph knights lose combat and Break, you lose the banner.  Just don't lose combat ^_^  Barring that, if you lose combat, don't Break.  (Which is another reason to bring along a BSB).

8) You have a lot of cannons and mortars... and not a whole lot of walls in front of them (given your small-sized detachments of archers, no reserve-elements, and only one block of infantry).

8-A) You'll only really get a couple of good turns of shooting in any game.  After that, your guns will be quiet (as everything will be in melee), or just shooting at random targets. 

8-B) As such, I'd suggest dropping one cannon and one mortar.  That still leaves you with three pieces of artillery.  The points you've freed up could easily pay for the upgrades suggested, as well as a BSB on foot.

8-B-1) You might even have enough extra points to get a small squad of Pistoliers or Outridders as well.  Fast Cav, while fragile, can slow down an elf line.  And blackpowder weapons do make some pretty sizeable dents in elf armies.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts. ))



Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: 2250pt no comp tourny.
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2015, 02:31:37 AM »
(( The Peacemaker,

Just some quick thoughts.

1) Right now your army LD sits around the 7 - 8 range... which can be unreliable.  A BSB would go a long way in making your 7 - 8 more reliable.  Don't forget, BSBs let you re-roll all LD tests (Panic, Fear, Swift Reform, Restrain Pursuit, etc.)

Oh yeah, I'm totally taking a BSB, I just didn't know if I should add another captain BSB or just put it on the pegasus.

2) The Earthing Rod is... definitely a YMMV item.  Even when 6d6-casting spells, you only really have a 25% chance to get Irresistable Force.  And, a number of the Miscast Results really aren't that bad.  You might be able to save some points and drop it.
3) I've found that Heavens works better with Shadow.  Heaven's Default spell (Frozen Fractured Ice-Shard Blizzard Blast of Freezing Cold... or whatever it's called), synergizes very well with Miasma.  Miasma to reduce their WS... and then further penalize their to-hit roll with a further -1 from the Blizzard.  Also, since you aren't bringing any Warrior Priests, the Harmonic Convergence will help you when you get a splattering of "1" results.
3-A) With the Empire LD 7, the default spell of Death is going to be difficult to succeed with, since you said you're going against Elf-heavy armies.  Also, Death tends to have short-ranged spells... so you'd have to be willing to be riskier with your Mage's location.
3-B) Also, Wind Blast works well against Miasma-ed troops as well.  Now, not only do you slow down their Movement stat, but you push them back out of formation and out of them charging you... but not you charging them.


Not sure what YMMV stands for but over my warhammer gaming I've learned that my level 4's need the earthing rod. The first and last miscast are the worst and I've gotten those far too many times on the first or second turn.
Honestly when it comes to magic I'm not a big fan, especially in Empire. I agree about death. Honestly its pretty bad in Empire.
I think I might just go with a level 2 scroll caddy. Probably shadow or metal. Then I have extra points for a warrior priest or captain or another unit.



4) For your Pegasus, I'd suggest Iron Hard Hooves over Swift as the Winds.  The Pegasus already has 10" + 3k2" for charge movements... and, even if you get a "1" on a charge move, the re-roll still needs to be higher than the next lowest die result to matter.
4-A) In contrast, the Pegasus has a free Stomp that auto-hits (with some restrictions to targets).  Being able to re-roll that auto-hit's to-wound roll means you can reliably cause 1 additional wound against T5 targets... and threaten T6.  Sometimes causing that extra wound is enough to win combat.
4-B) I'd also suggest a Pistol for your Pegasus rider.  BS 5 with a Pistol gives him a solid threat radius, and you plink away one elf, you've paid for the Pistol.
4-C) Getting the ASF sword (Sword of Swift Slaying) plays into the hands of the elves, more than helps you.  They already start with ASF, and the basic-stat-line to support it.  Not to mention, it just now means that both sides attacks are happening simultaneously.  Over the Sword of Swift Slaying, I'd suggest a magic sword that increases strength, or some type of ward save... like Ulric's Cloak (though you'd have to drop the Dragonhelm to get the cloak).  Ulric's Cloak makes it harder to hit your White Knight... and if that unit is also blasted by the Heaven's default spell, now they're attacking your White Knight at -2 to hit in melee.
4-C-1) Also, don't forget that your White Knight has T4, and a 2+ armor save (1+ if you're using the Dragonhelm).  That goes a long way to absorbing damage.

I gotta figure out what role I want for this guy. Either keep him cheap to hunt war machines, or make him BSB to 1v1 anything and then hit flanks late game.  I'll probably drop the swift sword for +1 to hit sword.


5) For your Halberd block, I'd suggest full command.  Musician, if nothing else, for Swift Reform.  Champion to increase the density of attacks.

I just don't see a point to a musician because after a swift reform I can move like 2". Champions just get targeted and killed - probably before I will even get to attack back.
Do muscians do anything else good? I mean tie break.... But ties are kinda rare.
More input on what command models are good to field would be nice as my experience is a little lacking since majority of my games have some house rules regarding targeting and such in combat.


6) On your block of 10 archers, I'd suggest a Musician or Champion over the Standard bearer.  Our missile troops don't do shocktrooping very well... and if you lose the banner in the archers (highly likely), you're giving your opponent some free 50 VPs.

Well there is a fortitude mission which is why I added it.  But again the musician and champ don't really do anything for their points. Only reason to take champs is for challenges(right?). And this 10man unit is just a bunker for my wizard.


7) For your Demigryphs, I'd also suggest full command.  It increases the density of attacks, and adds to their static CR bonus. 
7-A) Demigryphs can also get magic banners as well, if you want them too.
7-B) Just be judicious with their fights.  Yes, if the Demigryph knights lose combat and Break, you lose the banner.  Just don't lose combat ^_^  Barring that, if you lose combat, don't Break.  (Which is another reason to bring along a BSB).

If I got the points I'll add a champ for sure. I don't know about the banner. Seems far too risky. Sometimes a bad random roll can make you lose the game if your don't consider that in list building.


8) You have a lot of cannons and mortars... and not a whole lot of walls in front of them (given your small-sized detachments of archers, no reserve-elements, and only one block of infantry).
8-A) You'll only really get a couple of good turns of shooting in any game.  After that, your guns will be quiet (as everything will be in melee), or just shooting at random targets. 
8-B) As such, I'd suggest dropping one cannon and one mortar.  That still leaves you with three pieces of artillery.  The points you've freed up could easily pay for the upgrades suggested, as well as a BSB on foot.
8-B-1) You might even have enough extra points to get a small squad of Pistoliers or Outridders as well.  Fast Cav, while fragile, can slow down an elf line.  And blackpowder weapons do make some pretty sizeable dents in elf armies.

Yes. Given the points level of the game I'll drop 1 mortar for sure. The cannon though..... my rolling isn't very good with cannons. They are NOT laser beams for me - more like 120pt free points for enemy on turn 1 missfire.
If I drop a cannon then I'll probably add a hellblaster.


Anyway, just some quick thoughts. ))


Thanks a bunch for feedback. Its helped me to kinda figure out what I want to do.
I think I'm gonna go heavy shooting and MSU to just dominate the chaff game. Then I can focus on any main block they have, whittle down what I can and then combo charge the heck out of it.

I'll post a revised list probably later tonight after dinner.
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Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: 2250pt no comp tourny.
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2015, 03:44:00 AM »
(( The Peacemaker,

Some replies to your questions and thoughts.

1) For your BSB, I'd suggest keeping him on foot, with the main infantry block.  A Bare-bones-BSB is fairly cheap, gets a decent Armor Save, and even gets Parry.  Having him on foot with the Halberds should keep the 12" LD-re-roll bubble centered fairly well in your army.  It also lets him give your Halberds a bit of a boost to melee.

1-A)  Plus, you can get your BSB a Pistol too.  Each turn you can shoot with the Pistol.  Kill one elf, pistol pays for itself.

2) "YMMV" means "Your Mileage May Vary".  It means that the item or skill or whatnot has some uses, but it isn't universally/meta useful.

2-A) As such, in my experience, the Earthing Rod isn't worth the cost.  Yes, it can let you re-roll a Miscast roll... but that also means that you have to miscast... and then get a miscast result that isn't ignore-able (id est, a result like YOU MAGE DIE).  Results like "lose d6 power dice" aren't the end of the turn... or the game.  So, to me, those results are ignore-able.  Shoot, some of the results give you free hits you on enemy units. 

2-A-1) Overall, for a few points over the cost of the Earthing Rod, you can get your wizard a 5+ Ward Save item.  That Ward Save is a lot more universal than a re-roll to a miscast roll.  Not to mention, that the Wizard can use the Ward Save on a couple of the Miscast events.

2-B) I've seen considerably more 6d6 casts that did not get the Irresistible Force / Miscast result, than those that have gotten the result.

2-C) Empire is magic-weak... but we do have a couple of advantages in magic.  The biggest advantage we have is our magicians are fairly cheap, all things considered.  The other advantage is that we have access to all the Main Rule Book lores of magic.  We're not limited to Beasts and Life for example.

2-C-1) I would suggest that, since you're going to a tournament, stick with magic spheres you're familiar with... or ones that are point-and-click, such as Fire.

2-C-2) I'd also suggest keeping the Level 4 wizard.  More spells, and +4 to cast / dispel is a huge advantage.

2-C-3) Also, don't forget, you can thin-cast spells too.  "Thin-Cast" is what my group has nicknamed when you cast spells with the bare-minimum d6s required.  For example, a Level 2 Fire Wizard can attempt to thin-cast a basic Fireball spell (5+ Target) on 1d6, and still have a 67% chance of casting the spell.

2-C-3-a) For your Level 4 Shadow  Mage, you can try to Thin-Cast Super Miasma (d3 lost to MV, WS, BS, and I) on 2d6, and still have about a 50% chance to cast it successfully.

3) The Sword of Striking (+1 to Hit) is good.  I just prefer the Sword of Might (+1 to Strength).  The Pegasus already puts out a decent amount of Strength 4 attacks, so I figure that the Captain should put out some higher damage attacks.

3-A) I'd keep your White Knight as a lone character, flank charger, war machine hunter.  His 10"+3k2" charge move means that he can get flank / rear attacks fairly reliably.  While he won't be causing disruption on his own, a Flank Charge does generate +2 CR automatically, and his flank charges can support Demigryph charges.

4) I think you should take a re-look at Swift Reform (pg 95, Main Rule Book).  You are missing a huge ability of the musician.  Not facing the right way, or about to get flanked?  Make the drummer pound out a jaunty tune, pass the LD test, reform facing a new direction, and still be able to take a FULL ACTION.

4-A) Swift Reforms, when passed, let you move your base movement or shoot.  That's huge!  You can't charge, as charges are declared before movement; but it can keep you from getting flanked by fast movers, or by follow-through attacks.

4-B) Musicians also let you win ties by +1.  Doesn't happen much, but it does happen often enough.  At least I've seen it happen often enough.

4-C) Musicians give you +1 to LD to Rally.  It is a lot easier to rally on a LD 8 over a LD 7.  Especially since you're going LD light, with only LD 7 and 8 characters.

4-D) Overall, Musicians aren't the be-all-end-all, but they are highly useful.  Their ability to save you precious movement is huge, in a game that rewards mobility and movement.

5) The Champion can accept challenges, keeping your wizard safe for an additional turn.

5-A) Of the three (Standard, Musician, Champ), the Champion is probably the weakest, but he still has his uses. 

5-A-1) The upgrade is expensive, for infantry; however, for your Demigryphs, getting the Champ means you now have 1 more STR 6 attack on the charge.  Not to mention that the Champion is always removed as the last casualty in the unit (pg 93 - 95, Main Rule Book).  Even in the Halberds, you are adding one attack to your front rank.  Often times that additional attack helps keep your results in the median bell-curve area.

5-B) Only the base-to-base models can directly target the Champion.  Also, only certain abilities (like Sniper) and spells can target individual models.  For the most part, the Champ just "hides" with the unit, offering you an extra attack.

5-C) Standard Bearers are fairly standard equipment.  They offer the +1 to Static CR... which, often, will just counter the enemy unit Standard Bearer.  Still, with Fast Cav usually lacking banners, and enough other unit choices out there who cannot get banners at all, the +1 to static CR does come in handy.

6) Since Archers Skirmish, the ability to Swift Reform (via the Musician) isn't as necessary.  However, they still can Panic, and +1 to LD to Rally helps.

6-A) The Champ in your Archer, just gives you one shot that's a bit more accurate.  They're still bows... but at least the Champion should be tilting fractional results towards your favor.  Id est, 3.5 hits would become 4 hits.

6-B) Over considering it a "Bunker", consider it an "Escort".  "Bunker" implies that the Archers are not going to move at all, and just hide all game with the Mage.  "Escort" helps remind you that the Archers can still move 8" and fire their bows, all while still protecting the Mage with them, and performing other duties, such as blocking LOS to units behind / beside them.

6-C) Otherwise, if your Mage is just going to hide the whole game, he shouldn't need a bunker at all.  He's hidden.

7) Now, as to Banners getting lost in melee.  I did say "be Judicious".  Demigryphs are pretty buff, but, yes, they can lose fights alone.  And there's the key word.  Alone.  If they are charging a unit by themselves, it is either a target of opportunity or an emergency charge to intercept an enemy charging next turn.  When they do this, giving them the +1 to Static CR via the banner will help you keep them in contest to win a fight... or, if they lose, keep them from loosing by an additional CR point.

7-A) Demigryphs should be charging units that are already engaged in melee, or that another unit is charging as well... such as another Demigryph unit or your White Knight.  One unit charges the front, while the other unit flank charges.  These supported charges increase the number of attacks you're throwing at your opponent, plus potentially have the chance of causing Disruption in your opponents unit (keeping your opponent from getting static CR via Ranks).

8) How are you using your cannons?  Are you doing the standard "6 inches in front of that model" sorts of guesses?  It sounds like you are getting statistical anomalies resulting in higher-than-expected cannon misfires.  A misfire should have a 16% chance... 1-in-6 chance per turn.

8-A) So, with three cannons, you have three, 1-in-6 chances of getting a misfire.  Again, that's 3, 1-in-6 chances.  It isn't a 3-in-6 chance, as each die and each event is separate.  Given that you have three chances, it may seem like you're getting misfires fairly often... when, if you add all the rolls up, you still are getting them at a rate of 16% of the time.

8-B) Anyway, if you're concerned about your misfires coming up more than you feel comfortable with, an Engineer would go a long way to helping mollify that situation... though he'll only help with one cannon or mortar.  And, if you get the Volley Gun, he is considerably more of a combat multiplier with the Volley Gun.

8-C) Still, though, three cannons is... to me, points wasted.  Cannons have zero multi-purpose ability.  You really only get two good turns of shooting, where you can target something you want to shoot at, instead of just stuff hanging around the board.  At this point, all your artillery just becomes dead weight.

8-C-1) If you drop a cannon, and grab some Pistoliers, even if the Pistoliers cannot shoot anything, you can always have them hanging out in areas that cause enemy units to not be able to March Move, and to threaten flank / rear charges with the Pistoliers.  In other words, the Pistoliers have multiple roles and options open to them during the battle.  They can be a lot more dynamic.

Anyway, hope those comments make some sense to you, and give you something to think about. ))

Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: 2250pt no comp tourny.
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2015, 05:53:53 AM »
BSB Captain: Pegasus, Plate, shield, Dragon Helm, +1 Strength sword, Opal Amulet   188
Wizard Level 2 lore of light: dispel scroll  125
Master Engineer  65
378


50 Halberds: FC   330
5 archers   35
5 archers   35

5 Inncer Circle Knights: Banner  135
10 Archers: Banner   80
615
Min core: 563


4 Demigryphs: Musician   242
3 Demigryphs: Musician   184
Cannon   120
Cannon   120
Cannon   120
Mortar   100
886


Steam Tank   250
Helblaster Volley Gun   120
370


Total 2249

Plan is that the BSB pegasus does not go war machine hunting but rather hangs back and provides the BSB re-roll/protect war machines. Then hit the flank of whatever the halberds engage.
I need the 3 cannons to kill anything nasty and to win any Artillery wars. Since my list is gunline/avoidance they will get more than 2 rounds of shooting.


I'm not happy about my leadership though.
I could trim 52 points from core for something else. I'm ok with droping the wizard to level 1 for some more points too.


One of the reasons I want to take all 3 canons is because they are bought and painted. Same with the Mortar.
I think I'll have to do some practice matches.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 06:30:11 AM by The Peacemaker »
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