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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: GenOmar on August 06, 2012, 05:37:29 PM
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guys,
do we still have a chance without our beloved cannons? ::heretic::
running 2 HBCG's w/ engy
2 blocks of DGK's w/ musu (one with BWH WP)
cannons seem to have a finite purpose, what else can fill the role slotted for our cannons?
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I love my cannon. Please don't take away my cannon. I have two of them and would like to buy two more. I think I'd just set them up and smile at them. They're grand.
The only alternative for me would be a Stank. But that's just a cannon with pizzazz.
I honestly don't know what else I could field that would make me comfortable facing major enemy characters that mine can't hope to stand toe to toe against when they get in close.
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An Amber Wizard with the Amber Spear spell would be able to take place of a cannon, and it can't miss.. If the spell goes off. All the while having the option to buff your units/characters with other spells. An option Empire benefits a lot from due to the average to below average statlines of humans.
If you are wondering about options to replace it outside of the character sections, I'd say there isn't anything that can do what a great cannon does. The stank is just too expensive to use it purely as a cannon and you really want your cannon to shoot every turn if possible (obviously). This is where the stank just can't keep up with a great cannon because the stank needs to get into combat to avoid enemy cannons and spells while holding up a nasty enemy unit. I don't see much room for the stank's cannon unless it is turn 1 or turn 2, the rest of the game you will probably be charging/grinding/steam gunning.
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luminarks bound spell works pretty well! and apart from that the cannon is used to destroy multiwound tough creatures like monsters and chariots and things.
I would suggest a good replacement is the grand master /w runefang
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Quick question, off topic sorry.
Can you take a dismounted grandmaster?
I don't see any rules saying you can't, but he comes with the horse which makes me wonder.
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I don't think you can - nothing in the rules says you can dismount a model and field as infantry (otherwise, you could dismount GW Knights and field them as Core greatswords without Stubborn :) )
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I don't think you can - nothing in the rules says you can dismount a model and field as infantry (otherwise, you could dismount GW Knights and field them as Core greatswords without Stubborn :) )
that would be pretty darn cool though!
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At about double the points cost . . . .
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Cannon and Stank alternative: Mount two Helblaster Volley Guns to the War Altar of Sigmar (one of the earlier versions, where you have some room for them), manned by an Engineer and the Arch Lector . . . and give them a Demigryph honor guard.
Can you imagine the hell that could deal out if you rolled that onto the battlefield?
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At about double the points cost . . . .
I wish it was like WAB where you could choose to dismount them............
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No reason to leave the cannon at home. It nueters everything on 50mm, chariot, or Monster base. All for 120 and it's like flipping laser guided now.
Noght
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Cannons to Empire players are like American Express cards to businessmen...you don't want to leave home without it...and why should you...
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I did in a game last week. I took a Luminark instead "just in case", maybe a Steam Tank too
Bad idea. Although my opponent did have two corpse carts around his infantry and two Terrorgheists...it didn't end well
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In a competitive setting, building an all-comers list I can't see any practical alternative to a cannon. It's such a great counter to big monsters and the like, so that suddenly a monster that you've just got no counter to starts to look a lot like free points. Even if there is no monster it can still give great value plinking chariots or war machines, and even if they aren't in the game then it can still do good service grinding down enemy units, and maybe even snipe a character.
But outside of all-comers lists there's a lot more scope for leaving out cannons. That's why I quite having a bit of list tailoring, it gives you scope to try out stuff you wouldn't normally do.
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It's such a great counter to big monsters and the like, so that suddenly a monster that you've just got no counter to starts to look a lot like free points.
This. +1. +2. +3. They always pay for themselves. Even if it's shooting other (cheaper) Warmachines thereby preserving your troops. Doom Diver vs. Knights? That's the target.
Noght
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all good points thank you, so I'll have to dump a WP or seriously down grade magic items to make room..for one... :eusa_wall:
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It doesn't sound like a good idea.
Besides, the title alone is scary. "Without a cannon" sounds too similar to "Without a paddle," and we all know how that turns out.
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guys, do we still have a chance without our beloved cannons?
Is that a trick question? :? Of course we do. I often run without.
Taking cannon is just so engrained in Empire players genes that it is never questioned and would lead to physical reactions if pondered. In reality, cannon are vastly overrated.
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In reality, cannon are vastly overrated.
Blasphemer! :icon_eek: :-D
(Maybe if you were still guessing ranges...)
Noght
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How about one cannon and one Luminark? I currently run a double cannon, double helblaster, double engineer list but was thinking of swapping one cannon for a Luminark for a bit of variety.
My thinking being that I can still take down monsters etc but have something that can be used in the counter attack along with the DGK's and Knights.
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And the flaming attack is great vs regen, just don't expect to fire with it every turn because you might roll low for the winds of magic.
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LSP is not alone- I can't remember the last time I took a static cannon...
I like not having a backfield to defend. I make up for it with a tank, nuke-happy Heavens wizard, Helblasters, or a Lum with its bound spell.
Works just fine.
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No STank for me, so I roll with a Cannon.
Noght
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In reality, cannon are vastly overrated.
Blasphemer! :icon_eek: :-D
(Maybe if you were still guessing ranges...)
Noght
Hey, I'm just Saying the things other Empire Generals don't like hearing since October 2010.
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In reality, cannon are vastly overrated.
Blasphemer! :icon_eek: :-D
(Maybe if you were still guessing ranges...)
Noght
Hey, I'm just Saying the things other Empire Generals don't like hearing since October 2010.
Ha. Well done!
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I agree with LSP monsters can be killed by demi chicks lances or even magic :O
I love having a cannon but it isnt the end of the world with out one
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What's this? An empire army without a cannon? What is next, no more feathers, skulls and codpieces!?!
I tried it once. Failed miserably. Do not rely on the stupid luminark bound spell. It will be dispelled, and only does D3 wounds if it'd get through.
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What's this? An empire army without a cannon? What is next, no more feathers, skulls and codpieces!?!
According to my sig, a man's cannon is not something he should be judged by, but the other things are. In which case I see no problem with not even having a cannon. I quite like my nice big cannon though.
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I agree with LSP monsters can be killed by demi chicks lances or even magic :O
Or not. Str 6 on the charge and Str 5 AP won't cut it for some....
Noght
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Really Noght? a unit of 12 with warrior priest 6x2 will sending out 12 lance attacks mostly hitting on 3s with re-rolls which is 11 hits most of the time and most monsters are T6 so youll do 5.5 wounds on average, agreed some monsters have more than 6 wounds but you should win combat and run em down.
Regen monsters are a diffrent kettle of fish and there regen works against cannons too i might add.
Most monsters put out about 6 attacks (some broken ones like the destroyer are diffrent....) which makes 3 ish wounds at str 6 so you will loose 1 knight maybe 2.
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Really Noght? a unit of 12 with warrior priest 6x2 will sending out 12 lance attacks mostly hitting on 3s
Really satch? You run 12 DG's with a Warrior Priest? Highly unlikely. Vanilla Knights maybe, Str 5 on the charge will hold up a Monster but not kill it and if it's T7 or higher you're probably toast.
Besides LSP is running Cannon in his STank. Can you run without either? Sure. I've run 40 Knights with no WM's and won but it wasn't in a Tourney, just for fun.
Noght
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Really Noght? a unit of 12 with warrior priest 6x2 will sending out 12 lance attacks mostly hitting on 3s
Really satch? You run 12 DG's with a Warrior Priest? Highly unlikely. Vanilla Knights maybe, Str 5 on the charge will hold up a Monster but not kill it and if it's T7 or higher you're probably toast.
Besides LSP is running Cannon in his STank. Can you run without either? Sure. I've run 40 Knights with no WM's and won but it wasn't in a Tourney, just for fun.
Noght
I thought the 12 lance attacks made it obvious I was not talking about DC
ICK are str. 6
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I thought the 12 lance attacks made it obvious I was not talking about DC
ICK are str. 6
Ah. So a 400 point unit to kill monsters (maybe) when you can do it for 120 (maybe 185 w/Engi that you bought for the HBVG anyway). My Knights never seem to blow up Monsters who just fly over them and eat my Infantry.
One Doom Diver ruins your day ya know....
Noght
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Why the sarcasm? Im not attacking you just pointing out how to kill monsters without a cannon.
I personally love my cannons but I dont rely just on them for this.
And a cannon can be shot to death too poison anyone?
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Agreed, poison wrecks monsters and warmachines alike.
In a way, gutter runners are like a scouting/tunneling cannon for quite reasonable pts, and they never misfire ::heretic::
Silly Skavens... :closed-eyes:
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The only alternative for me would be a Stank. But that's just a cannon with pizzazz.
Sigged.
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In a way, gutter runners are like a scouting/tunneling cannon for quite reasonable pts, and they never misfire ::heretic::
Yeah, a cannon that runs away from a stiff breeze and absolutely refuses to rally! :evil:
But seriously, do you need a cannon to compete? No. There are many other options in the book that can take its place. ICK with the Banner of Eternal Flame work well against monsters (even the regen'ing ones). A Helblaster isn't so bad. A Steam Tank works fine against just about everything (though it kind of counts as a cannon, you know, since it has one...). BUT:
[...] when you can do it for 120 (maybe 185 w/Engi that you bought for the HBVG anyway).
Its just that none of them are as efficient as a Great Cannon.
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As if. That's just 120 VP's for your opponent.
I believe that a cannon can do that when I see it with my own eyes. The last, oh, 200? 300? since mid-7th edition - games it did not work, and before that I was playing 40k. I'm sorry but the empirical data is very conclusive for me, so I'm not jumping on this bandwagon. Cannon do not work.
It's true that I like to take a STank. I just don't remember ever having even shot its main gun.
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LSP, my friend, I do not doubt that you've had bad results with the cannon. I've read some of your battle reports!
But having said that, surely you realize the ridiculousness of your claim. Stating that you won't jump on the bandwagon because cannons "don't work" is just silly. They seem to work for a majority of people and work well. Empirically, I'd say that the great cannon is an excellent war machine. Your experiences seem to fall into the category of outlier.
The times I have used a cannon (or have seen them used by others - and granted, this has been more the case than not), it has performed admirably. Has it always shot down that scary monster in a single go? No. But that artillery piece will, generally, bring it down in two or so turns. Hell, I have a friend that was absolutely surgical with it in 6th edition. And that was when you had to guess the range!
Let us just agree to disagree. The cannon does not work for you. It does, however, work for me. And as I said before, it is by no means the only tool in the shed. At the end of the day, we all have our different methods of dealing with monsters or other suitably scary models. It's just that most of us seem to favor the cannon for this work.
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LSP, I've nuked so many nasty things in turn 1 or 2 with my 2 cannons, I just can't fathom your cannons sucking that much. I could see it if it were back during the guesstimating range days. Either that or Lady Fortune does not favor you.
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But having said that, surely you realize the ridiculousness of your claim. Stating that you won't jump on the bandwagon because cannons "don't work" is just silly. They seem to work for a majority of people and work well.
Maybe. Silly or not, mine will have to spend a considerable amount of time in the attic.
Let us just agree to disagree. The cannon does not work for you.
Yes, that was kind of implied, even though not explicitly stated.
LSP, I've nuked so many nasty things in turn 1 or 2 with my 2 cannons, I just can't fathom your cannons sucking that much. I could see it if it were back during the guesstimating range days. Either that or Lady Fortune does not favor you.
Well, I've been playing Fantasy since mid-7th or so, a game roughly every two weeks. Lots of Bells, Aboms, Furnaces, Hydras, Knight busses, Black Coaches, Varghulfs, single characters, on steeds or not, as well as the odd Dragon around, even a guy with a STank. I have not yet managed to kill one of those beasties yet, even with up to three cannon. There's always a Stormbanner, overshoot, 1 to wound, ward save, single wound roll, Casket killing a battery, Gutter Runners, you name it. One single time did I cause 5 wounds on a Doomwheel but back then we thought it had 6 wounds... And it extends to my other WM too. The very first time I used a Helblaster back in 7th, the very first shot I rolled 10-10-10 while shooting at a Stegadon (big target gave +1). I think I killed two Skinks from the crew. :wink:
But don't get me wrong, I'm not mad or anything, I'm actually happy I have one place where I can shave some points. In all honesty, I wouldn't know how to make a useful list if I had to spend points on warmachines as well.
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LSP, my man. You NEEDs some new Dice! :icon_smile:
Noght
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LSP, my man. You NEEDs some new Dice! :icon_smile:
Noght
Or a new "cannon"... :unsure:
But that comment might come dangerously close to our previous discussion on the usefulness/pervasiveness of our "baculums"... :icon_eek:
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Well, let's see what the cannon think about sitting alone in the dark in the attic. Perhaps they'll behave when I break them out again! :-D
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running my no cannon listy tonight vs. DE so we will see how badly i miss them against his double hydra list.
got 2 HBVG's, 2 DGK's, a lvl 2 fire and the Luminark.
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running my no cannon listy tonight vs. DE so we will see how badly i miss them against his double hydra list.
got 2 HBVG's, 2 DGK's, a lvl 2 fire and the Luminark.
You might want to take a BSB with the banner of eternal flame and sit him in a unit of handgunners to pour on some pressure to those hydras!
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running my no cannon listy tonight vs. DE so we will see how badly i miss them against his double hydra list.
got 2 HBVG's, 2 DGK's, a lvl 2 fire and the Luminark.
You might want to take a BSB with the banner of eternal flame and sit him in a unit of handgunners to pour on some pressure to those hydras!
Except you have to take Handgunners....
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Lots of Bells, Aboms, Furnaces, Hydras, Knight busses, Black Coaches, Varghulfs, single characters, on steeds or not, as well as the odd Dragon around, even a guy with a STank. I have not yet managed to kill one of those beasties yet, even with up to three cannon.
Either you are exaggerating or you have the worst luck ever and should buy some new dice.
Then again, some of us can't make stubborn leadership tests with a BSB in the unit.
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running my no cannon listy tonight vs. DE so we will see how badly i miss them against his double hydra list.
got 2 HBVG's, 2 DGK's, a lvl 2 fire and the Luminark.
You might want to take a BSB with the banner of eternal flame and sit him in a unit of handgunners to pour on some pressure to those hydras!
Except you have to take Handgunners....
Ha. Yeah, but, hey, who doesn't like to watch tracer fire take down a Hydra?
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running my no cannon listy tonight vs. DE so we will see how badly i miss them against his double hydra list.
got 2 HBVG's, 2 DGK's, a lvl 2 fire and the Luminark.
You might want to take a BSB with the banner of eternal flame and sit him in a unit of handgunners to pour on some pressure to those hydras!
Except you have to take Handgunners....
Ha. Yeah, but, hey, who doesn't like to watch tracer fire take down a Hydra?
Aye, but 9 for something that hits on 5's and wounds on 6's? Meh.
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Aren't hydras are T5?
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Not sure, but point is that the more potentially damaging units you have posing a threat, the more problematic situations he will have to think through. I promise you, he won't simply ignore the unit, freeing up other stuff.
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Noght sometimes has a selective memory when he's making a point :engel:
Yeah a hydra is 'only' T5.
Still, 5 to hit, 5 to wound, hydra gets a 6+ save and has 5 wounds...
Tried doing the math, but I'm too dumb for that... but that's about 50 handgunner shots, right?
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Oh, I'm not disagreeing with Noght at all. The odds are definitely stacked against the handgunners. But when you add in all of the other elements, he has some things to consider. The more the better. Not to mention the BSB can jump to other units as needed.
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Why is it 5+ to hit? Hydra is a Large Target right? And you might get one shot at long range and one at short...
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I'm afraid you're one edition behind.
Nowadays, Large Target means:
- target cannot claim cover modifiers from obstacles
- if a general or BSB happens to be or is mounted on a Large Target, Inspiring Presence and Hold Your Ground range is increased from 12" to 18"
@Mottdon: that's true, but a hydra is only 175 points. If you're concentrating that much on just one thing, you'd probably make him happy.
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Noght sometimes has a selective memory when he's making a point :engel:
Yeah a hydra is 'only' T5.
Still, 5 to hit, 5 to wound, hydra gets a 6+ save and has 5 wounds...
Tried doing the math, but I'm too dumb for that... but that's about 50 handgunner shots, right?
Very true BG. I thought he was T6. Still you'd be better served just running multiple cannon balls at the Hydra....
Noght
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Yep no more +1 to hit Large Target -- which my STank likes very much.
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Assuming one shot at long range and one shot at short range with the handgunners... 25 handgunners will do the trick.
Which is 225 points, plus about 100 more points for the BSB (sure, he can move to other units, but that's a dangerous game as he's got a magical banner which means no magical armour and that means letting this guy near combat is a very dangerous game).
I don't think that's a very effective way of taking out a hydra. Not that they're really is that effective a way of doing the job, those things are really good for their points.
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had my non-cannon match against DE tonight....
total victory for the empire! :eusa_clap:
HBVG (2), Vanquisher and Vindicator were money, destroying a unit of black guard and corairs.
DGK w/ WP laughed at the Hydras and rolled on through.
did get a little help from above...Comet too.
it was all wrapped up neatly by turn three.
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Well Done Omar. Battle Rep forthcoming?
Noght
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Assuming one shot at long range and one shot at short range with the handgunners... 25 handgunners will do the trick.
Presumably once the Hydra moves in close range to your handgunners, which is 12" if I'm not mistaken, he'll either already have charged you or used his S5 breath weapon.
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Huzza! Congrats, GenOmar! I would love to read a batrep as well!
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i'm working up the BatRep know, but to be honest i chicken ridered out :icon_redface:and dropped the lvl2 fire for one cannon. ::heretic::
can't say it would have made any difference, HBVG's are just too good (got 30 shots in round one)
I got to scared with 2 hydras on his display board, and anpther DE player a table over setting out his Dragon!
I needed my nice cozy cannon.
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My cannon sleeps next to me at night time... My cuddly cannon :blush: He scares away all the monsters in my closet...
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Really Drmooreflava, mine tends to blow up and set my bed on fire.... maybe it's a hellcannon in disguise...
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Presumably once the Hydra moves in close range to your handgunners, which is 12" if I'm not mistaken, he'll either already have charged you or used his S5 breath weapon.
He's almost certainly not going to use the breath weapon on the handgunners. They're deployed two deep, it's a complete waste of the flame template - he's far more likely to target a block of state troops where their deeper ranks will lead to more wounds suffered. And if he's a half decent Dark Elf player he'd also know that once he gets anything in to charge the handgunners they're as likely to break whether there's 10, 20 or 25 still on the board, and so he'll target combat units where the kills inflicted by the breath weapon can make a real difference.
And yeah, it's possible there's no short range blast as the hydra will have charged. At which point there's a stand and shoot reaction instead. Alternatively the hydra might have tried and failed to charge from, say, 15" and just rolled forward 4 or 5", giving up a stand and shoot, a close range blast and then another stand and shoot as it charges again.
That's all unknown, so the easiest thing is to pick a point roughly in the middle, such as one long range and one short range blast.
And more to the point, when making the case that a unit such as the handgunners is a very poor option for taking down a hydra, it is only sensible to present a relatively generous scenario. That is to say there's little value in producing a scenario that says 'if things go poorly this unit doesn't do the job', but there is a lot of value in saying 'even if things go pretty well it would take a very expensive unit of handgunners to bring down a hydra'.