Topic: MORDHEIM! - New house rules for weapons?

[Pistol Pete]

I was looking at some minis on CMON, and saw some terrific Mordheim conversions.  I've had the boxed set for awhile, but never got around to digging into it (I wanted to get my empire army up and running first).  The CMON conversions sparked my creativity, and I decided Mordheim might be just the thing to get in a few games.  I have a few friends who want to get into fantasy but don't have the commitment to do a full army.

The WHFB scene is lagging around here now that the local GW store moved.  It's substantially further away now, and with gas as expensive as it is, it's just not practical to spend that kind of money to play warhammer, especially when you're not even guaranteed to get a game in.  So basically I've just been plugging away at building my army for the last few months.

Anyhow, we got a new local hobby shop, and I was talking with the owner about warhammer.  He's keen to get started playing fantasy (he likes the goblin spider riders  ).  I mentioned the idea of a Mordheim campaign to get people introduced to fantasy and get the scene rolling and he agreed that it would be a pretty cool idea.

I decided to start a Reikland Warband, as I like their visual and think their rules are the best of the bunch (at least for my playstyle). 

My warband consists of:

Heroes- 160 points

1 Mercenary Captain
2 Champions
2 Youngbloods

2 swordsmen (2 swords each)- 110 points

4 marksmen (Bow, Dagger & Mace)- 152 points

I wanted a full character allotment, as it's crucial to get the money rolling in.  I also wanted a couple of shooters with a decent fighting capability, hence the marksmen.  I could have saved a bit of money by going with some cheap warriors instead of the expensive swordsmen, but the swordsmen are considerably better, both stat-wise and because of the expert swordsmen rule.  Then extra expense means my heroes will probably not be getting a brace of duelling pistols each, but it does give me some heavy hitters with some good potential as a hero if I can get one of them promoted.

That leaves me with 72 points to play around with.  I need equipment for my characters, so what would you suggest?  I think I'll probably give the youngbloods the swordmen's unused daggers, as they're going to be really soft until they get a bit of experience.  This means that I'm primarily concerned with equipment for my Cap'n and his Champions.  Although I'm not opposed to getting two of those marksmen crossbows instead of bows if i can find a way to spare the points.

Now heres where it gets iffy.  I'd like to know what my character upgrades are going to be before I buy equipment, because it makes a big difference depending on your heroes strengths and weaknesses.  However, since this is supposed to be for a campaign, the rolls should probably be done in the presence of an unbiased referee, to discourage cheating (because who wants another point of initiative if you can have +1 str, +1 toughness, +1 attack, or +1 wound?).

So basically my question is: How do you guys handle this?  It's kind of a hassle to have to get everybody together to roll up a warband, and it would be much simpler if you could do it yourself.  Of course the random nature of the upgrade system means that you either need a referee or you have to rely on the honor system ().  My thought is that the simplest way to do this would be to allow the player to cherry pick his intitial upgrades.  This lets everybody "cheat", and eliminates the need for a ref, at least for initial warband creation. Further advances can be rolled on the spot after the game is complete, under the watchful eye of the ref.  What do you guys think?

Here's another question:  Due to the constantly evolving nature of the warband, equipment will be added, and discarded at an alarming rate, making it near impossible to model all equipment on the model as the rules state.  WISIWIG is nice, but after a model's been painted and converted, I'd really rather not have to drill out the weapons 3 or 4 times, or add a helmet or shield to a finished model.  Likewise, armor's sort a tricky issue.  Most of the Captain and Champion models are pretty well armored, but given the outrageous expense of armor in Mordheim it's not something anybody can really afford at the beginning of the game.

Is there a good compromise here?  Yes, I'm aware of mini magnets but requiring them for weapon and equipment swaps would ground the campaign before it could even get rolling.  They're hard to aquire, and beyond the skills of some folks to install.  And metal models are even more difficult to modify.  So whats the best way to handle this?

I'm also looking for any advice you've got for running a campaign or for house rules to make the game run smoother and keep things balanced.  Also any good tactical advice would be appreciated.

Whew. 

[KingPierce]

I've run two Mordheim campaigns now and will be starting my third in the next few months. I am on hand if you have any questions, but we'll address a few of your questions right off the bat,
When starting a 500pt. basic campaign style warband, there are no rolls for advancement before your first battle, so it won't be an issue where a referee need be present, the cost of each hero is for their stats as shown in the book and the experience that they start with is supposed to reflect the fact that their stats are better then the average troop, so don't worry about witnessing rolls because no advancements should be taking place until after the first game and then only when the henchman group or hero has accumulated enough exp. for their next advancement, as far as representation of the items you buy for your models, this is subjective and really depends on what one can do.  I enforce a fairly strict policy ie.... no one model holding only a spear can be a swordsmen with two swords, armor is tougher and I usually let it go, unless you have hv. armor on a barbarian model who's wearing only a loin cloth.  but then again it's up to whoever is running the campaign, though a good tip would be that if a player has a situation where they are short on models and want to play but they are having trouble showing all that they buy on their troops then they should be responsible enough to alert their opponent of anything that is out of place before a battle ensues and then to frequently remind that opponent so as to minimize confusion.
As far as armor goes for your warband, Don't use it!  It is horribly overpriced and should only be bought as a luxury late in the campaign when you're running out of things to spend coin on, also remember that before the first battle, only items on the warband's list may be bought, wait until after the first battle and then purchase lucky charms for your heroes, they are a steal at 10gc and work better than armor in most occasions, black powder renders hv. armor non existent and even crossbows neutralize it, so don't fall into that point sink, Hope that helps for now, let me know if you have any other questions.

[Papa Dan]

I would as the guy above said, drop any armour early in the campaign. There is one lad that I always use, ALWAYS. And that is the hired sword: Tilean Marksman. He is so good that it aint funny. He usualy takes out at least three enemy models by himself. So my opponents start to moan as soon as I take the miniature out! (I use a DoW tilean crossbow guy).

Dont remember exactly in what book he is in, but it is as everything else available for download at Specialist games.

[Moxer]

Your warband looks good!

As King said, there are no advancement rolls during warband construction. (Youngbloods are that good, because they advance quickly and can get better than your champions after some games!)
You can not give the swordsmen's daggers to anybody else. Each model has one "personal" dagger for free and won't give that one away.

Reikland marksmen are awesome! You might consider dropping the swordsmen for a second unit of marksmen. (You will still have your heroes for CC)
The captian has a good BS, so a bow is a good idea for him too.

[Pistol Pete]

there are no rolls for advancement before your first battle, so it won't be an issue where a referee need be present, the cost of each hero is for their stats as shown in the book and the experience that they start with is supposed to reflect the fact that their stats are better then the average troop, so don't worry about witnessing rolls because no advancements should be taking place until after the first game and then only when the henchman group or hero has accumulated enough exp. for their next advancement,

Hmmmm... I guess I must have missed that.  What a stupid and counter-intuitive rule!  I figured the experience you started with was to give you a bit of a stat boost, or some skills to elevate you from the absolutely crappy statline you begin with.  This actually makes the starting experience a liability, as it gobbles up the potential advance rolls you could be getting down the road.  This is especially cruel given the random nature of advancement.

As far as their stats being better than the average trooper, a swordsman has the same stats as a champion PLUS the expert swordsman rule, making him WAY better than the champion, and even the captain, in close combat.

The only advantage that the captain and champion have are marginally better equipment options (at least at the beginning of the game... the good stuff costs too much) and improved access to the skill section, and it's arguable that the swordsmen has better skill access than the champion.  The champion gets three categories, and the swordsman, if promoted, only gets two categories, but the swordsman gets to pick his, wheras the champion is stuck with what he's got.

No, I think that rule has got to go.  Either dump the experience from the start (giving the heroes full opportunity to bloom) or let the players actually use it.  Looks like House Rule #1 to me.

[Pistol Pete]

You can not give the swordsmen's daggers to anybody else. Each model has one "personal" dagger for free and won't give that one away.

It's not in the book, and makes no sense anyway.  If I buy that mother****er a second sword, he can damned sure contribute his spare dagger to the treasury, since he can only carry two weapons anyway.

[Duce]

Hey Pete,

I also use Reiklanders in Mordheim,

Captain
- Sword / mace
- Brace of pistols

Champion's (2)
- Sword / mace
- Bow

Youngbloods (2)
- Spear
- Bow

Marksmen (4)
- Mace
- Longbow
-1 Has blunderbuss

I gave one of the marksmen a blunderbuss, but if you want you could save money downgrading the long bows to bows, scrapping blunderbuss and downgrading the dueling pistols to normal ones and maybe buy another few men.

I know some people like to equip cheap with mace and use the free dagger and just use bows for the archers, means moee men but little less equipped.


a couple of good links to stuff are :

Good forum with loads of information
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/index.htm

Good quick building guide for making terrain
http://www.terragenesis.co.uk/infopages/page192.html

Lots of spare info
http://www.mordheimer.com/
http://www.bordertownburning.de.vu/
http://www.specialist-games.com/mordheim/default.asp (You may have seen this one already, but theres also loads fo rules etc)

Reiklander tatics
http://www.siegetower.com/mordheim/reiklander.htm


and... somethig to make you cry
http://gidian-gelaende.de/Material_HP/Wolfgang/Mortheim/album/index.html

[Moxer]

Duce,

all model in a unit of henchmen must have the same equipment. (But of course you can have a one man unit equipped with a blunderbuss)

Pete, i don't know if it really is not in the book that they don't give away their dagger, it's the way we played it and i THINK it was written down somewhere. And the rule makes sense: Who would want to cut their bread and meat with a sword?

[Johan Willhelm]

You always have your free dagger and it doesn't interfere with having two close combat weapons. Mordheim rocks and rocks hard. Viva La Sisters of Sigmar! 

Come and hang out with us on the Specialist Games Forums.

[Duce]

Duce,

all model in a unit of henchmen must have the same equipment. (But of course you can have a one man unit equipped with a blunderbuss)

Pete, i don't know if it really is not in the book that they don't give away their dagger, it's the way we played it and i THINK it was written down somewhere. And the rule makes sense: Who would want to cut their bread and meat with a sword?

Hum, I didn't knwo that henchmen groups had to eb equipped th same, Thought it was any equipment allowed, but as they gain exp it makes adding newer ones harder or something? or is the morning ruining my brain?

[Moxer]

The unit has to be equipped with the same things. Theoretically you could make a lot of one-man units though. (But risk to lose the experience whenever a henchman dies)
It does indeed get harder to fill up expereinced units. Iirc you throw 2D6 after a game, that's the amount of experience you can get on new recruits.
If your unit has e.g. 4 exp and you want to add two henchmen to the unit you have to roll at least 8.
New recruits cost their base cost +2gp per exp. And plus the equipment if you don't have some left. (And remember that equipment is lost when somebody dies)

[Duce]

Doesn't that allow more chance in the beginning for that lads got talent for getting a 6th hero though?

[Moxer]

Yes, having many units of henchmen increases the chance for a 6th hero. However i would not take less than two guys per unit. Having a unit with a bit of experience wiped out really sucks!

[Von Breden]

Give the youngbloods each a hammer and their free dagger. Give one Champion a sword and a hammer, give the other one a missile weapon and a hammer. The first hangs around with the swordsmen, the other one with the Marksmen. Your captain needs some protection, so give him a sword and a buckler.

That is, if you want to keep the swordsmen. I'm personally a big fan of numbers in Mordheim/skirmish, quantity goes before quality. Nothing's better than swarming your opponent with as much attacks as possible. Ask notts how his swordsmen felt when swarmed by my militia (his models by the way =P) at the eurobash. When I played the attacker, I took spearmen rather than swordsmen, they were cheaper and thus I could get one more, which in the end made me win the battle*. If one of your men gets stunned or knocked down, the opponent can't kill him when he's fighting another of your men.



*It's actually more likely that I won the battle because notts kept rolling ones and I kept rolling sixes...

[KingPierce]

Equiping is something that everyone must weigh for themselves, but I cannot express the value of the sword enough, parrying is a brilliant rule and really gives your models staying power.  The other thing I would warn you of before you start your campaign is that you approve of all warbands before the start, because there are some seriously broken ones out there, If you just want to allow all the official warbands that works well, but it can also alienate that player who loves O and G ect.  The Mordheimer is a good place to get a handle on warband lists, but if you want to include non official lists I would only stress that you read them beforehand if a player wants to take one and try to determine whether it's a good list that simply never got official status (like shadow elves) or whether it's a list concocted by a kid who wanted to minimize all the faults of his groups warband and add ten new advantages as well.  It's usually fairly easy to spot and if you have questions I can let you know what I have black listed from my own campaigns.

[Pistol Pete]

The other thing I would warn you of before you start your campaign is that you approve of all warbands before the start, because there are some seriously broken ones out there, and if you have questions I can let you know what I have black listed from my own campaigns.

For starters, I think well restrict it to official warbands only.  I'd love your feedback on which warbands are good/bad etc.  And that includes your thoughts on the official warbands, as well as the unofficial ones.  I've heard the elves are pretty cheesy, and even GW has tabled them for the time being until they can figure out how to balance them properly.

Pete, i don't know if it really is not in the book that they don't give away their dagger, it's the way we played it and i THINK it was written down somewhere. And the rule makes sense: Who would want to cut their bread and meat with a sword?

Actually, I found the rules in the Mordheim FAQ.  Basically, the dagger does not count against your weapons loadout, but you can't give it away or sell it.  It is a part of the character until lost or disarmed (which makes the fist attack extremely unlikely!).

[KingPierce]

Shadow elves are not all that bad, a bit overpowered but mainly they just need a price increase rather than a rework, the orc and goblin horde warband is actually very good and balanced, carnival of chaos and beastmen are both good, all the book warbands are balanced (pretty much), In regards to Druchii, if you have a player who wants to use them, word to the wise, do not allow the Lustria campaign Dark Elf warband, it's expensive but ridiculous in its abilities and really just doesn't fit dark elves, If you want dark elves I would have you look at a Druchii list from the Mordheimer, I can get it if you need still expensive but not quite as broken for the money.  The Woodelf warband that's floating around on the Mordheimer is fine if someone wants to use it, I actually think it underpowered,  also the warbands from the Nemesis Campaign Setting are quite good.  Happy Hunting!

[Pistol Pete]

I'm personally a big fan of numbers in Mordheim/skirmish, quantity goes before quality. Nothing's better than swarming your opponent with as much attacks as possible. Ask notts how his swordsmen felt when swarmed by my militia (his models by the way =P) at the eurobash. When I played the attacker, I took spearmen rather than swordsmen, they were cheaper and thus I could get one more, which in the end made me win the battle*. If one of your men gets stunned or knocked down, the opponent can't kill him when he's fighting another of your men.

I've got an 11 man starting warband.  That's pretty darned good, compared to most of the lists I've seen.  I guess I could drop the swordsmen and buy 4 warriors with 2 daggers for about the same price, but I think 11 is good for now. 

Besides, I believe warriors are a waste in a rieklander band.  Marksmen cost the same but get +1 BS.  True, warriors can get great weapons, halberds, morning stars, and spears, but those are weapons that need a model with better stats.  I wouldn't waste that kind of money on warriors anyway, at least at the beginning of the game.

So for my purposes, marksmen will be used instead of warriors.  They fight just as well as warriors, and they shoot much better.  I can live without the extra weapon selection since I probably would never use those weapons on them anyway.  If I need combat troopers, swordsmen are better in every way (except cost, and in that regard, marksmen cost the same, so I'd just use them anyway).

So heres my final warband:

1 Captain (Sword, Mace, Bow, Helmet, Buckler)
1 Champion (2 Hammers)
1 Champion (2 hammers)
1 Youngblood (Hammer & Free Dagger)
1 Youngblood (Hammer & Free Dagger)

2 Marksmen (Bow, Hammer, & Free Dagger)
2 Marksmen (Bow, Hammer, & Free Dagger)

1 Swordsman (2 Swords & Helmet)
1 Swordsman (2 Swords & Helmet)

Everybody with BS 4 gets a bow. 
Everbody has 2 weapons-
     Swordsmen get 2 swords because they are the best fighters in the warband (helmets are there to protect my investment).
     Youngbloods and Marksmen get hammer and dagger as they are not expected to bear the brunt of the fighting.
     Champions get 2 hammers.
     Captain gets the best assortment.  He can fight with sword and mace, or defend with sword and buckler.  Helmet for protection.

Although I didn't invest a lot in shooting, I have a decent shooting phase, and a lot of troops that can pack a decent punch in combat. I'll try to keep the youngbloods out of the fighting until they're a little better, but the cap'n, swordsmen, and champs should be pretty solid.  The marksmen are in two groups so I can change their weapons out easier, and the swordsmen are in individual units to maximize chances of advancement.

[Duce]

personally i'd give your champions and leader ranged weapons, normal bows for the champions and a dueling pistol for the Leader. Its always nice to have the option to soften someone if you get the chance.

9's been used alot i see by people as a good starting number, and it allows some nice equipment.

I wouldn't buy a warrior when  you can use a swordsman.

Off hand I can't remember if 11 is in the same rout test range as 9, If it is your best pushing for another man or dropping to 9 and equipping them better since you'll rout after same amount OOA.

[Moxer]

Routing is after 25% of casualties (think panic check), so 9 and 11 are in the same range (3 ooa), the next step would be 13

[Duce]

Routing is after 25% of casualties (think panic check), so 9 and 11 are in the same range (3 ooa), the next step would be 13

Yeah than i'd drop your 11 to 9 and gear them up with some ranged weapons to have more options with. nothing like having most able to shoot incase your facing fear causing units or undead.

If i remember the rule correctly your hero could use the dueling pistols S4 in hand to hand (Someone confirm this since books at home?)

Pete, if your looking more figures at the start maybe go for Maidenburg?

Or is it the extra ranged advantage you like?

[Lost Commander]

and... somethig to make you cry
http://gidian-gelaende.de/Material_HP/Wolfgang/Mortheim/album/index.html

Wow iy actually made me drool, and then I just cried like a baby, that is some serious Mordheim board

[Pistol Pete]

I was just going over the skaven warband rules.  I have a bunch of night runners (some came with the box, I bought a few loose sprues later from the store bitz box), and have been meaning to build a skaven warband as an opposition force.  What I noticed is that the Skaven seem particularly, if not ridiculously, powerful.  From what I can tell, they look to be the strongest warband in the book.

Firstly they can have up to 20 troops (Orcs can do this too, but clanrats are way better than gobbos)..  And from what I hear from everybody, quantity is very important in mordheim.  Contrast this to the witch hunters who can only have 12 models! 

The heroes are expensive, but they can start with all 6 slots full, and the clanrats are cheap and good.  They get a very nice wizard to boot.

Skaven are FAST.  An 18 inch charge is easily possible with the Sprint Skill, and skaven characters are *scary* in combat.  Even the cannon fodder are fast.  The overall speed reduces the effectiveness of missile weapons against them.

Skaven have CRAZY equipment options... weeping blades, fighting claws, and the very scary warplock pistols.  All at *very* reasonable costs (unlike our 200$ hunting rifle that fires every other round).

And slings... did I mention the slings?  For a mere 2 gold crowns, you get a weapon that has nearly the range of a bow, and can fire twice at close range.  And double shots are MEAN when you've got 20+ troops.  Slings are amazingly undercosted.  A bow costs 5 times as much and the sling is arguably better, especially in fast moving warband like the skaven.  And don't tell me that slings are cheap and easy to make... It's true, they are pretty easy to make, but you also have to factor in the game balance.  Throwing stars are also pretty simple to manufacture, but because the rules make them quite nasty, they justifiably cost 15 gold crowns.  Given the combat effectivness of slings I think 10$ is still a bargain.  Have any of you guys adjusted the cost of slings for your own campaigns, or am I just over-reacting here?

As far as I can see, the only drawbacks to skaven are low LD (not sure how important that is in Mordheim, but having a huge warband mitigates the route tests to some degree), and very few hired sword options.  But considering the goodies they get, it seems like they still come out ahead.  So what's your take on skaven?

And for that matter, what's your take on Witch hunters?  They seem a little underpowered to me.

[Pistol Pete]

Pete, if your looking more figures at the start maybe go for Maidenburg?  Or is it the extra ranged advantage you like?

I like Reiklands skillsets better than Middenheim or Marienburg.  You get a mix of strength and shooting skills, instead of one or the other.  Also, I think the Leadership bonus and marksmen upgrade is better than Middenheim's str bonus, or Marienburg's extra money and mercantile skill.

I like all 3 warbands, but Reikland seems the most balanced to me.  I'll build warbands for all of them, I think, but Rikland is okay for now.

personally i'd give your champions and leader ranged weapons, normal bows for the champions and a dueling pistol for the Leader. Its always nice to have the option to soften someone if you get the chance.

Okay, hows this?

Captain- 2 hammers, bow
Champion- duelling pistol, hammer, & dagger
Champion- duelling pistol, hammer, & dagger
Youngblood- hammer & dagger
Youngblood- hammer & dagger

2 marksmen- bow, hammer, & dagger
2 marksmen- bow, hammer, & dagger

1 swordsman- Sword, Dagger, Bow
1 Swordsman- Sword, Dagger, Bow

I've given up all of my quality secondary weapons (everybody but the captain uses the dagger as their secondary weapon now), and all of my helmets and bucklers, but I've gained a Brace of Duelling Pistols, and now everybody but the youngbloods can shoot (and with BS 2, shooting is wasted on them). 

The swordsmen are not as good fighters as they were before, but now they can shoot.

For now, the champs have the pistols because I can't afford a 2nd bow for the other champ.  As soon as I can get another bow, the Captain gets the brace.  I figured it might be worthwhile to find a way to squeeze the duelling pistols in because they're so hard to find afterward.

[KingPierce]

Witch Hunters are Rockin!, I've used them from the start and though their attributes aren't glaringly apparent they really show up when it's campaign time.  For instance, Cheap heroes always allow a full complement off the start, second warhounds are great b/c so cheap, and good in combat, in the early campaign for fleshing out the warband and then can be phased out later, Flaggelants are awesome in Mordheim, tactically the Witch Hunters themselves have a great skill set, I usually make them ranged experts with crossbows, while the henchmen options are great for close combat, I will usually run my Warrior Priest (can armor up and use prayers) with a big unit of 3-4 flaggs which usually wreck all in their path, warhounds when I'm using them are meant to draw fire (closest imminent threat) while closing the distance with range attackers quickly and neutralizing them, People may think the 12 max is a drawback but it can actually be turned into a plus, for instance I almost always have the most cash in a campaign and as it builds I can purchase many interesting Mercs. like the Tilean Marksman, also because of the extra coin I can tailor a merc. to my warband depending on who I will be challenging for the month.  I've heard people say that Which Hunters are underpowered, well don't believe it, My Witch Hunters of Morr are a religious wrecking crew!!! Woe to any heretical warbands out there who ever cross their path!