Topic: 2250 List for review

[ZeroTwentythree]

Here's a list for review. I'm interested in taking it to some tournaments.

It's a modification of the list I've been using. I've swapped out 2 units of 10 handgunners and 25 spearmen for 25 swordsmen, 2 more pistoliers and three magic items granting magic resistance. These will generally go with the three big infantry blocks (priest with the greatswords so they can get the hatred.)

Over the top on MR? MR just not worth it? I may be over-reacting (5 SS plus Rod, plus MR(1), MR(2) and MR(2)) because I've had my parent units (and everything else) get hosed by a couple of "moderate" magic armies like HE & DE packing 12+ power dice and casting spells that can cut a parent unit down to useless numbers in a single shot. My support units will still potentially suffer, but at least I won't lose 20 guys to one spell.

Any other advice is welcome.


7 Pistoliers @ 150 Pts
     Brace of Pistols; Light Armour; Musician; Warhorse
     Outrider w/ Repeater Pistol

25 Swordsmen @ 269 Pts
     Standard; Musician; Duelist
     9 Detachment - Swordsmen @ [54] Pts
     5 Detachment - Archer @ [40] Pts

25 Swordsmen @ 299 Pts
     Standard; Musician; Duelist
     Standard of Arcane Warding [30]
     9 Detachment - Swordsmen @ [54] Pts
     5 Detachment - Archer @ [40] Pts

24 Greatswords @ 364 Pts
     Standard; Musician; Champion
     9 Detachment - Swordsmen @ [54] Pts
     5 Detachment - Archer @ [40] Pts

5 Knightly Orders @ 123 Pts
     Musician

5 Knightly Orders @ 123 Pts
     Musician

1 Helstorm Rocket Batter @ 115 Pts
1 Helstorm Rocket Batter @ 115 Pts
1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts
1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts

1 Warrior Priest of Sigmar @ 110 Pts
     Barding; Prayers of Sigmar; Heavy Armour; Shield; Warhorse

1 Warrior Priest of Sigmar @ 125 Pts
     Barding; Prayers of Sigmar; Heavy Armour; Shield; Warhorse; Sigil of Sigmar [15]

1 Battle Wizard @ 95 Pts
     Rod of Power [30]

1 General of the Empire @ 161 Pts
     General; Great Weapon; Armour of Meteoric Iron [25]; Shroud of Magnus [50]

Casting Pool: 3
Dispel Pool: 5
Models in Army: 153
Total Army Cost: 2249

[dabber]

Over the top on MR? MR just not worth it? I may be over-reacting (5 SS plus Rod, plus MR(1), MR(2) and MR(2)) because I've had my parent units (and everything else) get hosed by a couple of "moderate" magic armies like HE & DE packing 12+ power dice and casting spells that can cut a parent unit down to useless numbers in a single shot. My support units will still potentially suffer, but at least I won't lose 20 guys to one spell.

Magic resistance is least valuable against that sort of attack.  Against a 4 dice enemy cast, you've got to save 3 of your pool dice to support the MR(2).  That leaves you little (2 dice, maybe 4 with rod) against the rest of his magic phase.  Then he has to not miscast on the 4 dice spell.  Then you have to neither miscast nor roll terribly on the dispel.

Personally, I think DE/HE are doing something tactically wrong by using magic to blast your infantry blocks.  They need to stop your shooting.  If they can do that, their troops can survive your infantry.

[Folken]

I'd prefer to take one of each artillery if I am taking 4 pieces but to each their own(a hellblaster is far more effective then a hellstorm at claiming a flank).  I disagree what Zero says about MR.  Other then your pistoliers they have to choose either to spend magic against  your MR troops or try to blast things with 1+ armor saves or detachments which are expendable.  Also, if they went magic heavy your troops plus combat characters should be able to make a good fight out of it especially if they have taken a few rounds of artillery fire

[Spikes]

95 pts on great magic resistance is actually effective. You're just not using banners to a more...combat-ey purpose.
How do you plan to take on fear causers?
Do you plan on actually having a working magic phase (with the priests' prayers on turn 2 and later, unless you intend to let them come to you), with casting battlemages and such, or do you want to keep it simply for defense?

[ZeroTwentythree]

@ dabber: But using your example, I'm still getting 2 more DD than I would have. If I didn't have the MR, I'd still be in the bad position I would be in after the first dispel in your example. Or am I misunderstanding something?


@ Folken: I like 2 and 2 artillery. 2 cannons means it's less likely my opponents will be able to hide their 'thirsters or dragons from cannon fire and the 2 HRL means I'm more likely to hit something. Also makes the first turn misfires less devastating.

Regarding your comments about having to target MR troops*, 1+ save knights or small support troops, that's my line of thinking.

@ Spikes: Fear causers - I keep my general near the infantry, so just have to roll well (hasn't worked so well so far - I've never rolled as many 11s & 12s as I have since starting empire!) And no, magic is basically defensive against most opponents. I still make them spend their DD though. The problem -- in my mind -- with magic is that it's all or nothing.

[Spikes]

Same here.
If you attempt to play with generals and captains, with no dispelling whatsoever, you're in for a tough ride in this current edition!

[Sigmar's son]

Ok. So that's the 13th mistake that I made.

[dabber]

@ dabber: But using your example, I'm still getting 2 more DD than I would have. If I didn't have the MR, I'd still be in the bad position I would be in after the first dispel in your example. Or am I misunderstanding something?

Yes, you are gaining the two dispel dice.  But you have dedicated your defenses to stopping that one spell and I don't think your odds of actually stopping it with a dispel roll are that high, between low casting rolls, low dispel rolls, and double 1s either side.  I'm guessing under 50%.  I'm not saying its going off the other 50%, just that your magic resistance isn't stopping it.
I also think you are much better off letting HE/DE magic your infantry instead of something else.  MR encourages them to cast elsewhere.

[Spikes]

Yeah but you can't protect your important artillery assets with MR either.

[Folken]

@ Folken: I like 2 and 2 artillery. 2 cannons means it's less likely my opponents will be able to hide their 'thirsters or dragons from cannon fire and the 2 HRL means I'm more likely to hit something. Also makes the first turn misfires less devastating.

A hellblaster can be pretty nasty on thirsters or dragons and a mortar is more accurate but as I said to each their own.  I hate when my cannon few things to target other then hoping a character doesn't see the bouncing ball coming at him.

[caseyc]

Zero, I think using magic resistance is a meta-game choice. You must be facing a lot of armies where it makes sense to invest in magic resistance, and spending only about 100 pts on it isnt really a Huge investment.

Recommendations I have would be to throw the Van Horstman's Spec on a warrior priest or the wizard, to help challenge big baddies that nothign else in your army can kill in combat. Also, I'm not a huge fan of the Helstorms, they seem to be incredibly unreliable, as you said. What about investing another 50 pts and getting a steam tank. As anti-cheese as I am, the steam tank is tactically great, especially for an infantry-based force. Stick it to one side of the main battle area as your first deployment, and watch your opponent deploy nothing in front of it and cram eveything to the other side. You have just secured that flank of your infantry. I never shoo the cannon, and only use 4 steam points usually, this makes it much more reliable. Even if it kills nothing all game, if it secures that flank and forces the opponent to charge head-on into your infantry blocks, it's done its job.

Other than that, I think your list is great. I'd be curious to hear some brief battle reports when you get a chance.

[ZeroTwentythree]

Re: HRLs

I'm OK with the HRLs being a bit inaccurate. I've previously played skaven more than any other army, so I can live with unreliability in exchange for the increased much-death-potential of the HRLs over the mortars. The mortars just bounce off too many potential targets, anyway.

Re: STank

I like it, in concept, but for now I am committed to a non-STank army. Not going to get into it here, but I just think they are currently one of the worst though-out components of the WFB game.

Re: MR stuff

As far as targeting artillery and other troops, that's fine. My issue with magic lately is the massive-death spells like flames of the phoenix, bladestorm (or whatever it's called), etc. especially when they have multiple casters and a pile of dice. They chew the big parent units to bits. But their damage potential for smaller units is at least a little more tolerable.

I don't necessarily face mostly magic heavy armies, but enough of them (and they are easy to do in recent army books) that my "take on everyone" list just gets chewed apart by some of these 12 or 14 or more PD armies. So while I get in 3 or 4 out of 5 games in a competative manner, the other 1 or 2 games aren't even worth showing up for. (I'm talking about extremes like over half my army gone by turn 2 and I can't do anything to stop it.)

I'm not convinced my idea is a good one, which is why I'm getting input/feedback from all of you. So I appreciate the replies and what may appear to be disagreeing with some of these answers is, in reality, just me playing devils advocate and trying to think out all sides of things. I do it to myself, as well.

The other option I'm considering is a new army, probably WE or DoC. But then I'm giving in and becoming part of the problem. 


Re: Battle Reports

Theres a few with my old army list at my recently started blog (the link in my sig.) and I think a few here at W-E.