Author Topic: I Hate Skaven or How does the Empire win against 300 rats (Read 4948 times)

Atchman · « **on:** June 18, 2003, 12:47:05 AM »

IH8Skaven and I have been conversing offline about how to fight and win against the Skaven Horde armies. One of the ways is good use of detachments, effective shooting with Hochland Long Rifles, cannons and mortars.

Though it would seem like it would work, the true shooty army doesn't have a chance against 300 rats. It will have to be a combination of rock hard infantry, with some shooting, magic defense and a hammer unit of cavalry (one that can punch the clock on any unit). This army would also need to be effective against the other hard armies out there, namely Cheeos, and Undead.

Suggestions? Comments?

Albrecht von Hinkel · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2003, 05:46:15 PM »

Mortar combat!

Mortars, helblasters, detachments

IH8Skaven · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2003, 01:14:21 AM »

I gotta admit it. I'd take two mortars against this. You can scatter by 10" and still hit spot-on a unit of rats!

Yep, I'd take a Hellblaster too.

But how are detachments going to work? You won't ever get a counter-charge off due to the fact that there is just another block of rats blocking your charge arc. In any game, I rarely get a counter-charge against skaven. I think it quite impossible to get one off against this army.

Atchman, I would keep my big block of Knights at home too. You have this monster uber-unit that can toss aside anything the rats throw at it, and that's great, BUT what if the skaven general wisely places reserve units directly behind forward units? Your Knights charge and win by a ton, the rats break-- now what? If you pursue, you'll run smack into another unit and they'll have their cousins in another blocks salivating because they're going to flank you on both sides because it's their turn next! If you don't pursue, you'll get charged by none other than the unit you were going to pursue into. Which is what I'd actually favor simply because it beats getting flanked, but you're still in a bad spot. Can you work your way out of it? Absolutely. Is it worth the gamble of the amount of points you could lose in that one unit? I don't think so.

As I said in the Email. I think I would go with what you personally recommended Vincent of Vega do against Brets. Bring the following:

1 Unit of Greatswords - Griffon Banner
1 Unit of 30 Spears - BSB Banner of Sigismund
1 Unit of Flagellents - preferrably 20

Put them all relatively close to one another, and now you have a battle line with one unbreakable unit, and two with stubborn rerolls! Let the rats run their heads into that brick wall! Then just grind them down once they've engaged. Send in other infantry for support, and try to tip the scales of battle.

I'd also use an Elector Count and have him close by so the stubborn units won't easily panic if they get flanked.

I'd use my last two hero slots for 2 lvl2 Heavens mages and let them go ratling gun sniping.

If the skaven have a BSB, I'd mortar the tar out of his unit. There is a pretty good chance the BSB is holding the Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat (unit causes fear.) That sort of thing makes stubborn meaningless. If he jumps to another unit, I'd blast that one then. One unit of 30 of clanrats causing fear could roll up your entire line if the Skaven general gets his way.

IH8Skaven · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2003, 01:30:27 AM »

Well now that I've just read Jewells article on detachments, I can see where they can be a big help! Good read for EVERY Empire General. I know I learned something new.

Atchman · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2003, 02:06:58 AM »

Yeah, I love the articles! I still haven't figured out that "bowl" thing how it works.

I would hate to run into a Skaven army of 300 figures in a tournament. This entire dominance thing by the "evil" races is getting old. I can't decide whether to set up an army to hold and grind or set it up to smash through.

What you said about knights is true if you only have one unit of them. Two or three units charging at the same time, however will disrupt their lines. Also, they can attack on a narrow frontage, perferably a flank. I still have this dream of an army with a griffon, 2 peg boyz, lotsa knights, stank, pistoliers, and some handgunners to hold table quarters. So fast they are on top of you in two turns. The stank plays the role of the flagellants and holds the vulnerable flank of the knights. I'm still afraid of being overwhelmed, but dropping one of the Pegboyz to use a BSB with the Banner of Sigismund in a knight unit wouldn't be a bad idea. That way you could place that unit and the stank on the flank to hold while your hammer unit went right up the middle.

I took a similar army to this to an RT once and won big time against a normal Skrye Skaven armies.

Erik Thorvaldson · « **Reply #5 on:** June 19, 2003, 05:42:42 AM »

Any rat worth his front teeth will have nasty tunnelers that come up and kick around puny war machine crews. Other than spreading the machines out how can we prevent tunneler from really doing damage? Even a mess of nightrunners can ruin your day if terrain is on their side.

Albrecht von Hinkel · « **Reply #6 on:** June 19, 2003, 08:39:05 AM »

You should also have some guards for your artillery. Free Companies is ideal.

Atchman · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2003, 12:07:40 PM »

Read the new article in the War Room on detachments to get some ideas about what to do against skirmishers. I place my guns (sometimes) in the 3" gap between my parent units and their detachment. This makes it a lot harder for those stupid little units to get to the gunz. It is a version of the Skaven "tunnel of death".

Albrecht von Hinkel · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2003, 01:42:23 PM »

It doesn't help too much against fast cavalry though, as they can quickly reform to 2 per row and get in between the gap.

squirrelboy · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2003, 10:26:41 PM »

This one worked for me.

A large unit of IC knights lead by grandmaster with the Laurels of Victory. It is Very powerful, but it is also all of your eggs in one basket. Personally if you can limit the magic against this unit (banner of arcane warding) then almost nothing can stop it. I won combat when I was fighting stormvermin on the front, a unit of clanrats on the flank and the rear. It works.

Atchman · « **Reply #10 on:** June 20, 2003, 01:33:19 AM »

Quote from: Albrecht von Hinkel

It doesn't help too much against fast cavalry though, as they can quickly reform to 2 per row and get in between the gap.

Yeah, but the gun that is usually in the gap is my Hellblaster, bye bye fast cavalry!

IH8Skaven · « **Reply #11 on:** June 20, 2003, 03:36:17 AM »

Quote from: Atchman

Quote from: Albrecht von Hinkel
It doesn't help too much against fast cavalry though, as they can quickly reform to 2 per row and get in between the gap.

Yeah, but the gun that is usually in the gap is my Hellblaster, bye bye fast cavalry!

Atch is right. Fast cav need to arrange their charge arcs just like everybody else. It's rare where you'll find yourself in a situation where they just charge from the middle of nowhere. You're very likely going to get a good shot at them first. And fast cav don't like hellblasters very much.

If they feel scrappy enough to crowd up and shoot your artillery before charging next turn, you can give the fast-cav a lesson on what REAL shooting is!

Albrecht von Hinkel · « **Reply #12 on:** June 20, 2003, 08:11:59 AM »

Mine is usually a cannon (have never used helblaster), so I'll just fire a grapeshot, but still..

Calimehter · « **Reply #13 on:** June 20, 2003, 02:33:56 PM »

Fighting Skaven is where some of the early versions of my Marienburg army (see thread below) have actually had some success. I would generally adopt an almost-dwarven "Castle defence" with mortars (early version had 2 cannons and 2 mortars as standard artillery), handgunners, Pikemen/spearmen, and some detachments and missle troops throughout.

Pikemen can absolutely rout any skaven infantry that get in front of them, and Vespero's Vendetta do a great job of hunting/stopping gutter runners (the fear mask pays off big time) that go chasing after the mortars.

The handgunners sound like a waste at first, and they can die pretty quickly, but for only 80 points per group you can keep the Skaven "honest" about where the mages and artillery go, and between shooting and emergency diverting they can keep your main line from being swarmed over before it has a chance to go 1-on-1 vs. some Skaven regiments. I wouldn't field a ton of them, but a pair of 10-man units can work very well, esp. if you are including mortars (very nice to add their casualties to a good mortar hit, as Skaven units degrade in LD and ability VERY quickly when their numbers start to drop).

Feanor · « **Reply #14 on:** June 23, 2003, 12:25:10 AM »

This sort of Army is where your state troops can really come in useful. The Elector Count would have to be the general you would give the Banner of Sigismund to a big regiment of Spearmen put the Elector Count in here with either the Icon of Magnus or Laurels of Victory to nullify the Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat. Then buy up some detachments of Halberdiers (favour 8 to 10 personally). This unit forms the basic part of your formation. With a general, battle standard, stubborn, fighting in two ranks, reroll and immunity to fear or each W=2W Skaven units will bounce. The Halberdier detachments add some damage and can be held in reserve of fighting a strong unit that will target them, use these to pursue the rats. A unit of Greatswords would also be advisable as would Flagellants these complete the defensive bastion. The last two hero choices would be either two level 2 mages one as a scroll caddy and the other with rod of power or a captain in some swordsmen to do extra damage and hold the centre. Fill up the the remaining Core Choices with Handgunners, give the marksman a Long Rifle. Finally max out your points allocation with detachments for the units in your bastion (these could even be units of 5 handgunners, frees up points that would have been spent on a core choice), take as many mortars and helblasters as you can lay hands on and maybe some hunters or free company to shoot the inevitable gutter runners. A final note would be if you are short of points leave the warmachines at home and buy up on more troops or handgunners as war machines are easily destroyed, the old basket and eggs dilemna can occur if they are attacked by the gutter runners. Sorry for the excessive rambling, but I have to get across my hatred for the Skaven and their ratty nay cheesy army book

Atchman · « **Reply #15 on:** July 07, 2003, 01:38:41 PM »

For those of you that use "steam roller" units against Skaven, how do they do? My biggest fear against Skaven is hanging back and getting raped by magic and ratling guns. However, I think a nice steamroller unit could disrupt their battle lines enough to cause them to divert units and such to handle it. Speed is the best defense against shooting and magic.

What is a bizarre thing is that I've never lost to Skaven, even against some really good players at tournaments.

Last RT, the dice went my way, and it was game over. My steamroller unit with 5 IC knights, full command, and a WP (hatred) bowled right through their army last time I played them. My Stank kept them from getting counter charged, while my shooty stuff worked over the rest of the army. Though the Stank was killed, both units of knight split the Skaven army in half, it was just a matter of moping up.

squig87 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 13, 2003, 01:58:05 PM »

Hi. I've played skaven many a time and i have tried to use those steamroller units. I play someone who loves thier rattling guns and jezzails and i find in one turn of concentrated magic and shooting they just get killed so easily. You rightly say that speed is the best defence against this but you cant always get scenery and setups to your way and so the skaven usually have 1 turn of shooting ang magic at them.

I guess you could give them the banner of arcane warding and hope for the best.

Atchman · « **Reply #17 on:** July 13, 2003, 11:41:00 PM »

You need more steamroller units than they can counter. Two large units of knights, a griffon rider, and a stank will do you right. They can only kill so much. Though that can hurt, you've got to have a consistent army. Either you rush, or you shoot and defend, there isn't much in between against Skaven.

IH8Skaven · « **Reply #18 on:** July 16, 2003, 03:35:21 AM »

I don't consider it a steamroller maneauver what I do. I punch a hole through there center w/ my GM + 14 IC Knights Panther in a way that SHOULD position them to charge into the jezzail unit at the edge of the board.

Basically the trick with ratling guns is to keep in mind what going on a turn ahead and don't let them have a chance to shoot you. They only have 1" on you vs. their range and your charge range. Meanwhile my mortar(s) is trying to hammer those parent units whose guns can damage my knights.

When all else fails, having a block of 15 Knights who are immune to psychology usually gets me through anyways.

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Author Topic: I Hate Skaven or How does the Empire win against 300 rats (Read 4948 times)