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Author Topic: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ  (Read 24224 times)

Offline Captain Alard Krusen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2013, 05:47:35 AM »
I'm missing something. How am I misrepresenting you? The question I answered (in the quotation marks) mentioned you, but my answer and stance on the issue wasn't intended to refer to you or use your statements in any way.

Offline Jezza

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2013, 06:26:14 AM »
The FAQ clearly states the process under which you calculate steadfast for the detachment and I quote "Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast". I'm not suggesting that you ignore the other sentences but none of the subsequent sentences in any way affect this statement other than presenting a very specific case to which the regimental unit is not steadfast.

There is no need to return to steadfast rules and examine them etc. in the hope of finding an answer that is already clearly given. Need I restate: Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast. The ONLY circumstance given where this is not the case is when the Regimental unit has LOST steadfast as a result of being in another combat in which it is outranked!

It really is that simple! I really don't want to criticise anyone's comprehension ability but really some of these statements are blatantly incorrect ie the sentence being only about conferring ranks. It clearly says ranks to determine steadfast not just ranks stop over examining each clause and read the answer sentence by sentence.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:28:38 AM by Jezza »
"Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast"

Offline Jezza

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2013, 06:27:53 AM »
.
"Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast"

Offline mrth0msen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2013, 06:39:57 AM »
The FAQ clearly states the process under which you calculate steadfast for the detachment and I quote "Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast". I'm not suggesting that you ignore the other sentences but none of the subsequent sentences in any way affect this statement other than presenting a very specific case to which the regimental unit is not steadfast.

There is no need to return to steadfast rules and examine them etc. in the hope of finding an answer that is already clearly given. Need I restate: Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast. The ONLY circumstance given where this is not the case is when the Regimental unit has LOST steadfast as a result of being in another combat in which it is outranked!

It really is that simple! I really don't want to criticise anyone's comprehension ability but really some of these statements are blatantly incorrect ie the sentence being only about conferring ranks. It clearly says ranks to determine steadfast not just ranks stop over examining each clause and read the answer sentence by sentence.

Yes. Yes. A hundred times yes!!

Offline Captain Alard Krusen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2013, 06:47:00 AM »
The FAQ clearly states the process under which you calculate steadfast for the detachment and I quote "Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast". I'm not suggesting that you ignore the other sentences but none of the subsequent sentences in any way affect this statement other than presenting a very specific case to which the regimental unit is not steadfast.

There is no need to return to steadfast rules and examine them etc. in the hope of finding an answer that is already clearly given. Need I restate: Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast. The ONLY circumstance given where this is not the case is when the Regimental unit has LOST steadfast as a result of being in another combat in which it is outranked!

It really is that simple! I really don't want to criticise anyone's comprehension ability but really some of these statements are blatantly incorrect ie the sentence being only about conferring ranks. It clearly says ranks to determine steadfast not just ranks stop over examining each clause and read the answer sentence by sentence.

Does this put you in the camp of those who conclude from the underlined sentence that parents not in combat (therefore not steadfast) confer steadfast to their detachments in combat?

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2013, 06:58:19 AM »
I'm missing something. How am I misrepresenting you? The question I answered (in the quotation marks) mentioned you, but my answer and stance on the issue wasn't intended to refer to you or use your statements in any way.

Fair enough, you simply used a question that misrepresented me.

Q: "Captain Alard Krusen,
I see only one problem with your interpretation, the same as for Athiuen:
How do you understand why GW wrote “either not in the same combat or in another combat”?"


Not again! Can people please stop misrepresenting me!

I don't think you've understood what I was saying. I have had to clarify this a few times already:

I'm not saying that "not in the same combat" means "not in combat"

I've never said that "not in the same combat" means, equates to, or is a synonym for "not in combat".

As Fidelis has pointed out "not in the same combat" means exactly the same thing as "in a different combat".  It's a logical tautology.  Redundant.  So while I FEEL like "not in the same combat" was INTENDED to be "not in combat" it clearly isn't.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 07:00:33 AM by Athiuen »
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Offline Captain Alard Krusen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2013, 07:01:49 AM »
I understand that is what you mean. The question in quotes is from Calisson. You and I are on the same boat, though you're more likely captain than I. I'll be mopping the deck if you need me.

Offline mrth0msen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2013, 07:20:42 AM »
The FAQ clearly states the process under which you calculate steadfast for the detachment and I quote "Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast". I'm not suggesting that you ignore the other sentences but none of the subsequent sentences in any way affect this statement other than presenting a very specific case to which the regimental unit is not steadfast.

There is no need to return to steadfast rules and examine them etc. in the hope of finding an answer that is already clearly given. Need I restate: Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast. The ONLY circumstance given where this is not the case is when the Regimental unit has LOST steadfast as a result of being in another combat in which it is outranked!

It really is that simple! I really don't want to criticise anyone's comprehension ability but really some of these statements are blatantly incorrect ie the sentence being only about conferring ranks. It clearly says ranks to determine steadfast not just ranks stop over examining each clause and read the answer sentence by sentence.

Does this put you in the camp of those who conclude from the underlined sentence that parents not in combat (therefore not steadfast) confer steadfast to their detachments in combat?

It is the detachment that is in combat and needs to see if they are steadfast. They do that by using their parents ranks to determine whether they are steadfast or not. So the answer is yes, because the detachment always used the parents ranks to determine whether they are steadfast, and only if they parental unit is in another combr, where they are not steadfast, will the detachment not be able to use the ranks. Makes perfect sense imo. English is not my first language so sorry for any confusion.

Offline Captain Alard Krusen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2013, 07:42:34 AM »
So you're saying the original underlined sentence in question nullifies, overrides and negates a page worth of rules in the BRB and a page worth of rules in the AB?

I won't even argue this. Don't get me wrong, if this FAQ answer was in errata and not an FAQ answer (which means it's a clarification and didn't actually change a rule(s)), I will simply wait until a trusted GW rep makes a comment regarding the issue, or when the FAQ gets amended/clarified.

Offline Jabbercrow

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2013, 08:46:00 AM »
Am I looking in the wrong place? I read page 54(?) on steadfast yesterday and it said something along the line of it being simply that if a unit has more ranks than the enemy it is steadfast. And the FAQ says use the parent's ranks to determine this.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2013, 09:51:25 AM »
It takes a bit more to be steadfast than that. But that aside, the FAQ does indeed say to use the parent's ranks to determine this. 
However, to regurgitate more posts from previous threads, this is a completely different mechanism than the actual rule in the AB.

AB p. 30: If a Regimental Unit has any of the special rules listed below (in casu steadfast), they confer the same rule onto all of the Detachments whilst they have at least one mode within 3 inches.

Army Book:
1. Check whether Regiment is steadfast – if yes:
2. Confer steadfast: Detachment is steadfast.

FAQ:
1. Check whether Regiment is not actively denied steadfast – if no:
2. Confer ranks: Detachment now uses ranks of Regiment
3. Check whether the Detachment (using the ranks of the Regiment) is steadfast
                    a. Has it lost combat? Yes (obviously)
                    b. Has it now more ranks than its enemy? Yes or NO.
                                i.  If yes: steadfast
                                ii. If no: not steadfast.

And that is the crux: an FAQ is supposed to clarify the AB/BRB, not to introduce a new rule. It should have been an Erratum, but that is not really a problem, as long as one makes a clear choice  to play either according to the FAQ or the AB.
Of course, those that adhere to the String Theory of Steadfast claim that there is no difference between AB and FAQ, but need to resort to quantum-mechanical definitions of steadfast, and still cannot explain why as a result of conferring steadfast a Detachment may in the end not be steadfast.
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Offline Calisson

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2013, 10:35:44 AM »
Thank you all for the reasonable tone of the discussion. Here, I'd like to tell about methods, rather than results.

Determine YOUR OWN steadfast - step by step.

1. Pick up a definition of steadfast, based on p.54.

2. See how it fits with BRB, AB and FAQ. Find problems.
(usually, this step benefits from the help provided, against your wish, by other W-E members).

3. Problem solving.
- avoidance: Can you tell it's just fluff not rules, and ignore? Can you blame GW for poor wording and explain what GW really meant but failed to write?
Yes => problem solved. Resume problem solving with next problem.
- refusal: Can you shut up the troublemaker who rose the issue? Can you oversimplify his explanations and make fool of him?
Yes => problem solved. Resume problem solving with next problem.
- complexification: can you elaborate a very complex theory that nobody can understand, so they dare not to object?
Yes => problem solved. Resume problem solving with next problem.
- grammar: can you use the finesses of English language to explain how the sentence can be understood differently thanks to grammar?
Yes => problem solved. Resume problem solving with next problem.

4. Were all problems solved?
Yes: END OF PROCESS. Stick staunchly to your definition. Tell other W-E members how simple it is.

5. When everything else has failed.
Maybe it is time to consider another definition?
- If your ego is not compatible with admitting you're changing your mind, then try again the whole process, with greater effort on "avoidance" or "refusal".
- If you accept to change your mind, go back to step 1.
But don't go to step 2, who knows, you might be right on spot this time?
Only when someone else tells you that new problems arose with your new interpretation (step 2), then solve them (step 3).

6.  Still far from a consensus?
You can resume step 5 again and again.
Don't worry, there is no shortage of possible interpretations.
Before you went through all of them, GW will come with a new BRB/AB/FAQ/errata/all combined.

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2013, 10:51:55 AM »
Hilarious Calisson.  Keep it up.
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They fired at a can of Heineken.
The end is Neigh!
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Curse you clearly-written rules!

Offline Jabbercrow

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2013, 11:27:03 AM »
Thank you Fidelis for summing things up succinctly for me. I was beginning to wonder whether I really had missed something. So the question is whether the FAQ is seen as the overarching authority, clarifying the rules in the AB/BRB? And the issue people have is over the status of the classification of FAQ/Errata/Amendment in determining whether or not an FAQ can introduce a rule that wasn't their before?

In the end, I only one opponent so I guess I will just ask him how he woudl like to play it!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2013, 11:37:48 AM »
I think all sides can answer "yes" to both questions. 
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Offline Calisson

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2013, 11:40:39 AM »
All right.
Now that the methodology has been explained above, I'll try to sum up one theory at one time.


Steadfast troops must be defeated.

This is based on a reading p.54, of the sentence which happens to be the first one, and bolded:
“If a defeated unit has more ranks than its enemy, it takes a Break test without applying the difference in the combat result scores.”
Said otherwise:
{more ranks + combat + defeated} => {steadfast}

Everybody was happy until the AB came, and provided a new use for steafast status: to make detachment steadfast.
This is when people started to wonder what happened when a parent unit was not in the same combat as its detachment.
Some people interpreted "=>" to be "<=>", and the sentence was understood to mean:
{more ranks + combat + defeated} => {steadfast}; and also, {no defeat} => {no steadfast}

The whole BRB could be read accordingly with no difficulty. {only defeated} would be included for units in building, too.

Note that this interpretation limited the AB steadfast transfer to "same combat" situations.
However, the weak point was that {no defeat} => {no steadfast} was written nowhere.
Worse, the opposite, that steadfast status was not limited to defeated situations, had been argued with some BRB quotes p.54, 60, 76, 129 and the AB itself p.30. It forced to refute the opposition by claiming these quotes to be "fluff" or "out of context", or similar methods.

Then came the AB's FAQ.
Here, there is no way to deny that parent and detachment may not be in same combat, for the FAQ to apply.

That caused a very difficult problem.
Two solutions have been pursued:
"Extremely minimalist FAQ" theory. We will examine it just below.
"FAQ not about steadfast" theory. It will be my next post.


Extremely minimalist FAQ
Let's read the FAQ with the understanding that the parent unit must be steadfast, and therefore defeated.
The detachment must be defeated, too. But it is not in the same combat, therefore the dice rolls are not simultaneous.
Before a combat is actually fought, we cannot determine who will be defeated.

So the only case for the FAQ to apply is if ALL the following conditions are met:
- parent in combat, detachment in combat at 3"
- parent's combat fought before detachment's combat
- parent loses, but passes its break test.

Note that if the parent unit wins, or flees, or has not fought yet, it cannot possibly be steadfast with this definition.
Note that one cannot consider the FAQ to apply ever where a parent is not in combat at all. Therefore, the famous "either/or" part of the FAQ can only be interpreted as a tautology, a rule written in a very bad way - but blaming GW is sure to please many.

Sticking with this extremely minimalist theory, one has to explain why in the world GW came up with an FAQ designed only for this very rare situation and not for the most commonly encoutered situations; and why did GW change the whole rule with rank counting just for this situation.
This is where I am personally at odds to keep understanding this reasoning.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 12:49:45 PM by Calisson »

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2013, 11:54:47 AM »
Hilarious Calisson.  Keep it up.
Yes, it is a neat overview of his method. Although his use of mathematical symbols and the need to be "proficient in scientific reasoning" seem to be lacking.
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Offline Calisson

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2013, 12:42:08 PM »
The other way to solve the problem mentionaed above, and keep the initial understanding
{more ranks + combat + defeated} => {steadfast}; and also, {no defeat} => {no steadfast}
was to deny that the FAQ was about steadfast at all.

In that case, there was no problem to have a situation where units would be in different combat.

The FAQ is not about steadfast
If the necessity for the parent unit to be steadfast is removed, then the problem is solved.
The FAQ is summarized as "Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks", the regiment needs not to be steadfast.

This interpretation solves everything indeed in a very clear way. :icon_smile:
Steadfast is useful only in defeated situations, which matches the chosen definition.
For determination of steadfast detachment, parent's steadfast is not relevant (and is hardly ever encountered).
Furthermore, this interpretation allows to understand the famous "either/or" sentence to mean "even not in combat."
When parent is in a building, that's easy, steadfast is irrelevant, count ranks, there are zero.

So, is it the best of all worlds?

- There is a very difficult problem: one has to explain how come an FAQ about steadfast transfer is not commenting, but replacing the rule, to the point that the parent unit needs no longer to be steadfast.
Remember, the AB rule was that {steadfast parent} => {steadfast detachment}. How one could argue the FAQ to allow the parent not to be steadfast at all?
It has been argued that GW meant it to be an errata, not an FAQ. But FAQ 1.1. is still an FAQ, like FAQ 1.0.
This problem has not been solved. :icon_cry:

- One must note that there are cases when the parent unit is not steadfast due to being in a river, or in a forest, but it has still its ranks.
With this interpretation, one should have a steadfast detachment even with a parent denied steadfast because of terrain.
This is likely to raise suspicions of bad rule lawyering.  :icon_evil:
These suspicions are all the more painful since the origins of this interpretation is so badly established.

-=-=-

Overall, if one selects this interpretation for its simplicity, and makes it clear with his opponent before the game, that's fine.
Just be aware that it cannot be argued to be GW ruling, but only house rule.

-=-=-

Because of the difficulty to argue that the FAQ is not an FAQ but an errata, some people have moved ahead and accepted that the initial understanding of {no defeat} => {no steadfast} might be wrong.
I'll examine that in a next post.

Offline zifnab0

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2013, 12:45:57 PM »
Hilarious Calisson.  Keep it up.
Yes, it is a neat overview of his method. Although his use of mathematical symbols and the need to be "proficient in scientific reasoning" seem to be lacking.
Another often used method is to ignore steps 2-3 and 5-6.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2013, 12:50:57 PM »
As well as to ignore step 1 to begin with.
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Online commandant

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2013, 01:13:16 PM »
Army Book:
1. Check whether Regiment is steadfast – if yes:
2. Confer steadfast: Detachment is steadfast.

I intend to play as

1: Is the parent steadfast?* If the answer is yes then go to 2.   If no then go to 4.

2: Is the detachment within 3 inches of the parent?   If yes then go to 3.   If no then go to 4

3: The detachment is steadfast.

4: The detachment is not steadfast.   

I am aware that this kind of ignores te FAQ but I am okay with because
a: The FAQ was not needed
b: The FAQ doesn't answer the question correctly or fully
c: This makes a lot more sense.


*defined as
 1: Is the parent in combat and has it more ranks than its foe?
and
 2: Are there any other factors that would deny the parent steadfast?.   [not here that I am talking about rivers, forests, etc.   I do not consider winning combat or drawing combat as a factor which would deny the parent steadfast as I feel that the parent is still steadfast when they win combat.   They just choose not to use it.]

In order for the parent to be steadfast the answers must be yes and no.

Offline Calisson

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2013, 01:25:16 PM »
If one understands that {no defeat} => {no steadfast} is not consistent with the FAQ, then one must move on and select another definition for what steadfast could be, according to GW.

The first possibility is to remove only the most difficult part: defeat.

Let's see how it goes when one considers the definition of steadfast status, p.54, to be:
{more ranks + combat + defeated} => {steadfast}; and also, {no combat} => {no steadfast}

Steadfast in combat only.

First step, one has to make sure that it is not contradictory with anything in the BRB.
The first sentence can no longer be understood as "the" definition. It tells what a steadfast unit can do when the condition "defeated" is added.
This is where a sentence becomes very handy:
"Simply put, a unit is considered to be steadfast if it has more ranks than its enemy.”
It is clearly a definition, it is simple.
However, one might object that the word "combat" is not there? Never mind, there's the word "enemy", which must mean that there is a combat.

With this reading, one can go though the whole BRB. There is no discrepancy.

For the AB, we are much more confortable. As soon as a unit is in combat, its steadfast status can be determined, just by comparing ranks.

Let's read the FAQ, with the necessity that the parent unit must be steadfast in combat, but not necessarily defeated.
Here comes one difficulty: "either not in the same combat or is involved in another combat"
One can only understand that to mean "either in another combat or in another combat", because "not in combat" was excluded in the first place.
If one accepts English grammar to allow "either/or" not to be mutually exclusive :icon_confused:, then there is no more problem and the rest of the FAQ is very clear.

We can also consider the situation in buildings. The parent unit is "always" steadfast, so FAQ applies. FAQ's answer says "always" use ranks. Ranks are zero (per FAQ about buildings). Therefore detachment must always use zero rank to determine steadfast.

In situations when parent is denied steadfast per terrain, the parent is not steadfast, the AB does not apply therefore its FAQ does not either.

-=-=-

Overall, if one selects this interpretation for being well balanced, and makes it clear with his opponent before the game, that's fine.
Just be aware that it necessitates the understanding that
"either not in the same combat or in another combat"
means "in another combat".

-=-=-

But if one believe that "either / or" is mutually exclusive, and considers in addition that the French version of the FAQ is clearer:
"si le régiment ne participe pas au combat du détachement, ou même s’il est engagé dans un autre corps à corps", which translates to:
" if the regiment does not participate to the detachment's combat, or EVEN IF it is involved in another combat?"
it becomes certain that the situation when parent unit is not in combat is adressed by the FAQ.

Here, either one goes back one step (see my previous post), or move on further (my next post).
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 07:54:19 PM by Calisson »

Online commandant

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2013, 01:31:49 PM »
-=-=-

But if one believe that "either / or" is mutually exclusive, and considers in addition that the French version of the FAQ is clearer:
"si le régiment ne participe pas au combat du détachement, ou même s’il est engagé dans un autre corps à corps", which translates to:
" if that unit is not in the same combat as detachment, or EVEN IF it is involved in another combat?"
it becomes certain that the situation when parent unit is not in combat is adressed by the FAQ.

Here, either one goes back one step (see my previous post), or move on further (my next post).

There is nothing in your translation of the french FAQ which supports the idea that the detachment is not in combat.   The French Translation just requires the parent to be not in the same combat [ie. in a different one] or in a different combat, which has been pointed out before just means you are As Sir Humphary would say / Been given two choices which on further examination prove to be the same thing.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2013, 01:47:10 PM »
The French text does not actually mention " the same combat". A more correct translation is the one I gave when I first drew attention to the French version.

@ Commandant e.a

While the language used in the question is indeed ambiguous, I think the question in the French version makes it clear what they meant:

Q. Un détachement qui a perdu un combat peut-il bénéficier des rangs de son régiment, et donc de la règle indomptable, si le régiment ne participe pas au combat du détachement, ou même s’il est engagé dans un autre corps à corps ? (p28)

Which translates into:
Can a Detachment which lost combat benefit from the ranks of its regiment, and therefore the steadfast rule, if the regiment does not participate in the combat of the detachment, or even if it is involved in another close combat?
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Offline pistolpadds

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Re: Steadfast & detachment with the new FAQ
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2013, 01:51:14 PM »
I'm just waiting for examples on how a unit can be considered steadfast outside of combat. The AB only allows a parent to confer things to its detachments, so the parent can only give a hoot if it has any hoots to give. And if the parent is not in combat, it sadly doesn't give a hoot.

Sounds reasonable to me.  Everyone is worried about in combat/not in combat but seem to skip the critical first step.  You must be Steadfast (per definition on page 54, any changes to those core rules don't exist in the AB or the FAQ*, wishful thinking aside) to "pass" the status.

*Edit:  the stupid FAQ talks about transferring ranks creating some new weird confusing dynamic, it does forbid comparing Regiments ranks vs Detachments' Foe's ranks, which seems to keep popping up... just a quick question regarding this where does it forbid it? The only thing it says you cannot do is pass ranks tothe detachment if the parent is in a different/same combat and is out numbered
Hoot!  Nice.

Of course I'm sure hooting will offend someone.....
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 01:53:46 PM by pistolpadds »