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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => Empire 8th Army Book => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Core => Topic started by: bluetwyst on May 12, 2009, 04:00:39 PM
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The pike is a sore subject for many of us. Most would like to see it in the next army book, but there are many different interpretations of the rules. Below, there are a couple different options (handily labeled with letters) for discussion. Please insert your own ideas as well.
Option A Fight in four ranks; requires two hands to use.
Always strikes first in the initial round of combat, even striking before enemies have charged. Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first by either a special ability or magic will strike before a pike-armed model.
Models receive a +1 strength bonus in the turn they are charged by cavalry units, chariots or monsters. Note that this bonus only applies to attacks against the above charging units, not against other units.
All these special rules cannot be used against enemy units fighting the pikemen in the flank or rear.
Other suggestions to change things up? To overpowered? To underpowered?
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Pikes:
Fight in four ranks; requires two hands to use.
Always strikes first in the initial round of combat, even striking before enemies have charged. Note that enemies who are entitled to strike first by either a special ability or magic will strike before a pike-armed model.
Models receive a +1 strength bonus in the turn they are charged by cavalry units, chariots or monsters. Note that this bonus only applies to attacks against the above charging units, not against other units.
All these special rules cannot be used against enemy units fighting the pikemen's flank or rear.
These are the current rules. And they're hawesome.
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Those rules incorporate both options, so I've merged them together. It does seem a bit powerful though. We might have to modify the cost in the State Troops thread to something higher if we use those stats.
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ASF should go after pikes, it's a 10 foot weapon, it doesn't matter how fast you are when your attacking a wall.
Unless you're in that Golden Flower film with the halbard fighting. That's pretty sexy.
Mogsam
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Those rules incorporate both options, so I've merged them together. It does seem a bit powerful though. We might have to modify the cost in the State Troops thread to something higher if we use those stats.
In DoW I believe they're 10 points or so...maybe make the pike upgrade +6.
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Those rules incorporate both options, so I've merged them together. It does seem a bit powerful though. We might have to modify the cost in the State Troops thread to something higher if we use those stats.
In DoW I believe they're 10 points or so...maybe make the pike upgrade +6.
Doing it now :)
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I strongly believe that DoW pikes are overpriced by at least 1 point as they are now. They were designed under a 5th edition price structure. From 5th to 6th to 7th, (and now into 8th) the value of a point has changed dramatically. What 1 point buys for you in 7th is much more than what it got you in 6th across the board for all armies. Based on this alone the pikemen should be cheaper, but then you have to factor in a couple weaknessess as well.
We should also include the benefit pikes get, which is to say the detachment rules and access to better magic banners.
We also have to think about whether pikes asf is before true asf. I would suggest that brb asf goes before pike asf in all cases except for if a unit with brb asf (HE for instance) charges a pike unit. Then in that one case the pike asf would be triggered first. The simplest way to word that in the pike rules would be to give pikemen Initiative 10 on the turn they are charged, then I3 after that.
And lastly, the one thing that bothers most current pike users to no end since the release of OK's is that ogre sized models squeek through the +1S bonus to pikes. That is obviously a simple oversight, so we should correct it now, in fact I'm surprised nobody else has suggested it. Why do cav, monsters, and chariots get impaled stronger pikes, but ogres, rat ogres, kroxigors, trolls, etc don't? I'd suggest wording the the strength bonus to "pikes get +1 strength against all charging models that are US2 or higher." That alone would fix it. I can only think of 1 slow thing that is US2+ and that is a dwarf on a shield, and with only 1 small exception, AND that exception not giving a care in the world about a few extra S pike attacks, I think its a solid revision.
This is all just my two cents.
btw, I think the pike upgrade for the new state troop regiments should be 4 or 5 points per model, not 6.
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Agreed, leaning towards 4 points. Just a note a pike is defined as any spear over 12 feet long usually 14 to 18 feet, most landesknecht pikes were 16 feet for example. These would be represented on a 28 mm model by a spear some, 80 mm long.
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I gotta admit, guys, I play DoW, and I hate the Pike rules as they're written there. In short, they're too complicated.
Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.
Cavalry lose their lances and (if other humans) are now matched for initiative. Brets lose the whole lance formation. Pikes win not by killing enemy horsemen, but by denying kills to them (since they'll score just over half as many kills at S3 instead of S5). Light cavalry WILL be slaughtered, period, even if they get to do a little damage first.
In addition, the Pikes remain a considerable threat to enemy infantry. Four ranks and no charging bonus for the enemy is nothing to laugh at. Dwarves, Ogres, and Undead will strike second. Humans are matched. True, some foes will still go first, but against four ranks of S3 attacks - and more of them, since pikes can cost less.
Truly heavily armoured and armed foes - Dwarf Ironbreakers, Chaos Knights, etc. - will still mow through pikemen, and they should. These awesomely armoured fantasy soldiers have little to fear from pointy sticks. But if the pikemen are State Troops, then slaughtering pikemen may still see defeat thanks to free companies on the flanks or a timely volley of handgun bullets.
I advocate these rules for three reasons:
a) Cost. Simple rules, no major benefits = lower cost pikemen = more pikemen. Always a beautiful sight, and nobody wants to spend 330 pts on a single block of humans, no matter what weapon they're carrying.
b) Precedent. Fights in Four Ranks is just an extension of the Fights in Ranks rule. And Bretonnian archers already have the Defended Obstacle against Foes to the Front rule. We're not making anything new.
c) Simplicity. The rules are straightforward and apply equally to all foes. No "our ASF is secondary to your ASF" things. Just move to Initiative and resolve the combat by the book.
Just my 2 cents.
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I'm leaning over to agree with Michael W here. Simple and still in the spirit of the pike.
Cheers
Dunrik
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I'm leaning over to agree with Michael W here. Simple and still in the spirit of the pike.
Cheers
Dunrik
Got to say I like it too, the bonus to strength can be countered by the fact that they are long bits of wood that snap easily, and so cant exert that extra strenght in the hit
Yeah, I quite like MichaelWs rules for this
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I gotta admit, guys, I play DoW, and I hate the Pike rules as they're written there. In short, they're too complicated.
Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.
Brilliant man! Make them 8 points a piece with light armor and we are good to go!
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I gotta admit, guys, I play DoW, and I hate the Pike rules as they're written there. In short, they're too complicated.
Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.
Brilliant man! Make them 8 points a piece with light armor and we are good to go!
With a heavy armour option...
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HA for DoW, not Empire - if these guys are State Troops then they do need SOME disadvantage. :happy: Otherwise our Swordsmen will feel threatened, all the way from the tips of their feathers to the depths of their codpieces...
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HA for DoW, not Empire - if these guys are State Troops then they do need SOME disadvantage. :happy: Otherwise our Swordsmen will feel threatened, all the way from the tips of their feathers to the depths of their codpieces...
Maybe Heavy Armor makes them a special choice, like IC knights?
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To complex, making them 8 points (or even 7) with just light armor brings them more in line as a legitimate option against swordsmen.
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I gotta admit, guys, I play DoW, and I hate the Pike rules as they're written there. In short, they're too complicated.
Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.
Cavalry lose their lances and (if other humans) are now matched for initiative. Brets lose the whole lance formation. Pikes win not by killing enemy horsemen, but by denying kills to them (since they'll score just over half as many kills at S3 instead of S5). Light cavalry WILL be slaughtered, period, even if they get to do a little damage first.
In addition, the Pikes remain a considerable threat to enemy infantry. Four ranks and no charging bonus for the enemy is nothing to laugh at. Dwarves, Ogres, and Undead will strike second. Humans are matched. True, some foes will still go first, but against four ranks of S3 attacks - and more of them, since pikes can cost less.
Truly heavily armoured and armed foes - Dwarf Ironbreakers, Chaos Knights, etc. - will still mow through pikemen, and they should. These awesomely armoured fantasy soldiers have little to fear from pointy sticks. But if the pikemen are State Troops, then slaughtering pikemen may still see defeat thanks to free companies on the flanks or a timely volley of handgun bullets.
I advocate these rules for three reasons:
a) Cost. Simple rules, no major benefits = lower cost pikemen = more pikemen. Always a beautiful sight, and nobody wants to spend 330 pts on a single block of humans, no matter what weapon they're carrying.
b) Precedent. Fights in Four Ranks is just an extension of the Fights in Ranks rule. And Bretonnian archers already have the Defended Obstacle against Foes to the Front rule. We're not making anything new.
c) Simplicity. The rules are straightforward and apply equally to all foes. No "our ASF is secondary to your ASF" things. Just move to Initiative and resolve the combat by the book.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree with most of this but in my way of thinking pikes should always strike frist. They are 18 feet long for crying out loud. There is no my ASF gose after your ASF its is simple. In the first round of combat when attacked to the front I strike frist. Much simplier.
I would suggest that pikes can't charge but advance into combat at their basic speed 4inches. They can march though meaning they would become a defensive unit which is what they were
+2 St against anything with M6+ or US2+ in order to represent the force of the foe empaleing themselves on the pikes
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I had an idea about this to remove this ASF confusion: Since they are defended obstacles, and thus enemies gain no advantages from charging them including striking first, simply increase the pikemen's initiative to 5 or 6 for the first round (or for more realism, first rank I=6, second rank I=5, third I=4 and fourth I=3)
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Makes it VERY complicated
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Four ranks, counts as a Defended Obstacle, both rules (obviously) only to the front.
Cavalry lose their lances and (if other humans) are now matched for initiative. Brets lose the whole lance formation. Pikes win not by killing enemy horsemen, but by denying kills to them (since they'll score just over half as many kills at S3 instead of S5). Light cavalry WILL be slaughtered, period, even if they get to do a little damage first.
In addition, the Pikes remain a considerable threat to enemy infantry. Four ranks and no charging bonus for the enemy is nothing to laugh at. Dwarves, Ogres, and Undead will strike second. Humans are matched. True, some foes will still go first, but against four ranks of S3 attacks - and more of them, since pikes can cost less.
Truly heavily armoured and armed foes - Dwarf Ironbreakers, Chaos Knights, etc. - will still mow through pikemen, and they should. These awesomely armoured fantasy soldiers have little to fear from pointy sticks.
Excellent.
Make it so! (waves with finger as if my Enterprise is moving somewhere)
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Truly heavily armoured and armed foes - Dwarf Ironbreakers, Chaos Knights, etc. - will still mow through pikemen, and they should.
Sir I respectfully disagree. The entire point of a pike was the fact that heavily armoured stuff couldn't just mow through it. The pike was the weapon that destroyed heavily armoured knights because they were now no longer able to compete with infantry. When we consider the rules for pikes we need to take two things into consideration.
1: Attacking an orderly ranked up unit of pikes with horses is a death trap. Unless the pike block breaks the horse will never, ever, get near enough to do any damage. Therefore the rules should show the strenght of pikes against horses and this strenght should be greater than their strenght against infantry
2: Pikes can't attack in the classic sense. Because of the lenght of the weapon a pikeman can't charge but must advance in good order.
With this in mind I purpose the following rule for three reasons,
1: They are simple
2: They cover all the aspects that a pike should
3: I believe they are balanced.
The rules:
1: Pikes fight in 4 ranks
2: Pikes Always Strike First in the first round of combat. Nothing, magical or otherwise will allow a foe to strike before the pikeman
3: Pikes give +2 Strenght against anything with 6+ inches movement and +1 Strenght against anything with 6- inches movement.
4: Pikes can't charge but advance into combat at their basic movement. They are still allowed to charge.
Given the vast array of complex rules that some magic items claim I think these are fairly simple, balanced and also cover the basic aspects of the pike
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Five words.
This is a FANTASY game.
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Five words.
This is a FANTASY game.
Of that I am well aware, hey I know there is no Harry Potter world on earth and the men can not become gods and that elves do not really exsist. However even fansty has to obey the laws of nature somewhat and when you have a solid wall of disclipined men all holding something that is 18 feet long and pointy then you must represent as solid wall of disclipined men all armed with a weapon that is 18 feet long and pointy. I could make much more complex rules if you desire it however I wanted to represent what a pike is and still keep it simple enough to play. If you don't want a pike to be a pike then call it something else and use rules to represent the new weapon you have decided upon. However if you want to call it a pike then play it like a pike. The rules that I suggested are not very complex and given that WFB is an adults game I would suggest that no player that wanted to use pikes would have a problem remembering them
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Dragons don't care how long your pike is. Heavily armored Dwarfs will just kind of walk in. Chaos knights and Elves can move fast enough to smash the pikes aside without getting hit.
It's not so much that I don't like your rules, or think they are too complicated, but that Michael W's are simpler.
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I was going to come back and defend my idea, but I guess others have handled that bit. :happy:
Just two issues with the uber-pikes. First, cost: +1 Str in 4 ranks with ASF at Init 11? 3 pts (human) + 1 (light armour) + 2 (4 ranks but two hands) + 4 (+1 str per rank) + 2 (+1 extra str vs lots of other stuff) +1 (ASF) +1 (Init 11, in effect) - 1 (can't charge)= 13 pts/model or thereabouts. I play DoW now, and my pikes rarely see the table since 10 pts/model for a human in light armour is simply more than I care to pay.
The other issue is that, if we're aiming for historical accuracy, then the pike is only a useful weapon on a clear and open field. So a minor addition to the rules might run as follows:
Just Too Long: Pikes are too unwieldy to be used when the ground is not level and open. A unit armed with pikes reverts to hand weapons when it or the unit it is engaged with are in any type of difficult terrain (including buildings, forests, water features, rough hills, etc.).
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Dragons don't care how long your pike is. Heavily armored Dwarfs will just kind of walk in. Chaos knights and Elves can move fast enough to smash the pikes aside without getting hit.
It's not so much that I don't like your rules, or think they are too complicated, but that Michael W's are simpler.
A Dragon dosn't care how long your pike is because of its hide. It still gets hit and anyway Dragons seldom face solid walls of pikes.
Elves are fast, this is true, however you must remember the lenght of a pike. They are not fast enough to get around the pikes, because its a solid wall, and they can't go over them or under them so they must go through them and take casualties.
Just two issues with the uber-pikes. First, cost: +1 Str in 4 ranks with ASF at Init 11? 3 pts (human) + 1 (light armour) + 2 (4 ranks but two hands) + 4 (+1 str per rank) + 2 (+1 extra str vs lots of other stuff) +1 (ASF) +1 (Init 11, in effect) - 1 (can't charge)= 13 pts/model or thereabouts. I play DoW now, and my pikes rarely see the table since 10 pts/model for a human in light armour is simply more than I care to pay.
Hmmm. The added strength is to represent the force of the momentium been driven into the pike. Therefore we don't need to pay for it. I would say that a pikeman following my rules should cost 8 points with +1 if you want to upgrade to heavy armour and +3 if you want to upgrade to full plate.
Human (4), light armour (1), pike (3). Considering that you get a spear, light armour and a shield for six points I don't think that it is very unreasonable to charge 8 points for a pike with no shield. There is no need for pikemen to be anything other than I3 indeed because of how unwhieldly the weapon is I would suggest that they be I2.
The other issue is that, if we're aiming for historical accuracy, then the pike is only a useful weapon on a clear and open field. So a minor addition to the rules might run as follows:
Just Too Long: Pikes are too unwieldy to be used when the ground is not level and open. A unit armed with pikes reverts to hand weapons when it or the unit it is engaged with are in any type of difficult terrain (including buildings, forests, water features, rough hills, etc.).
This could be a useful rule. However strangly enough pike work very effectivly in forests where you can use the trees to form as well.
I am not saying I dislike your rules. Just that I feel that they do not completly represent what a pike is and that much is lost in the interest of being simple.
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8 points for something that totally kills my cavalry, one on one, when my cavalry is 26 points a piece?
Hmmm. The added strength is to represent the force of the momentium been driven into the pike. Therefore we don't need to pay for it. I would say that a pikeman following my rules should cost 8 points with +1 if you want to upgrade to heavy armour and +3 if you want to upgrade to full plate.
Why wouldn't you have to pay for it? It's a special rule of the equipment, therefore it must cost something...
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8 points for something that totally kills my cavalry, one on one, when my cavalry is 26 points a piece?
Hmmm. The added strength is to represent the force of the momentium been driven into the pike. Therefore we don't need to pay for it. I would say that a pikeman following my rules should cost 8 points with +1 if you want to upgrade to heavy armour and +3 if you want to upgrade to full plate.
Why wouldn't you have to pay for it? It's a special rule of the equipment, therefore it must cost something...
Not really. A long stick with a metal head is a long stick with a metal head. If you want to come charging it then you have to accept that its going to do damage.
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So what you're saying is that the pike unit should be costed without taking into account the actual effect of the pike itself, because it's the enemy's own fault if they make the mistake of charging the pike unit?
:eusa_wall:
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In that case, I want my Greatswords for 8 pts/model, since their greatsword is just an over-sized hand weapon...
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::buffs monocle, replaces it on his eye:: Ahem, if I may interject....
I find myself caught between two points of view on here; firstly, the pike is a weapon meant to pose a major, very real threat to cavalry. If I'm not mistaken, heavy cavalry were utterly demolished when making frontal charges on pike regiments, the impetus of their shocking charges was nearly always disrupted to the point of ineffectiveness due to casualties. So, a pike should pose a rather serious threat to enemy cavalry, regardless of point value. One could argue that it would be common sense for a cavalry commander to avoid pikes, and pay the price if he chooses to charge them on the front.
However, I think perhaps the strength bonus takes things too far. I feel a simplification of the rules is in order, and I pose the following rules, taking into account both the existing rules and the discussed modifications here:
1) Pikes fight in 4 ranks from the front, and must use hand weapons for flank and rear attacks.
2) A pike unit is considered a Defended Obstacle from the front.
3) Pikes Always Strike First on the first round of combat if charged, regardless of any similar abilities. Note that this is pikes, the weapon, and therefore only applies to frontal charges. This represents their superior reach. In all subsequent rounds, pikes Strike Last due to their ungainly length.
4)Pikes do not double their movement for a charge; when declaring a charge a pike unit must be within it's normal movement to reach the enemy. If the charge fails, they move forward their full amount as normal.
To me, this is a fair and simple way of handling pikes, without making them excessively powerful. Heavy cavalry will be seriously deterred from charging them; between losing their lances, being struck first in combat despite any special abilities, and potentially losing retaliatory attacks due to casualties from all the attacks (as many as 16 of them for a basic bretonnian lance charge). There are some drawbacks; pikes are mostly defensive in nature, so generals who find themselves needing to go on the offensive will find them frustrating to move into combat. Pikes that charge the enemy lose their potent ASF, making them vulnerable to enemies smacking aside the spearheads and hacking off the ends, and then being ripped apart as they work with their ungainly weapons. This too is historically accurate, for that is precisely what greatswords were designed to do: throw pikes into disarray so other soldiers could get past them.
Cost? Well, I think 8 is in line with it, because we don't want to price them out of existence, and under these rules a decently armored foe is going to take some serious damage (as they should), but it's not the guaranteed deathtrap that 16+ S5 attacks represents. A pike unit will force enemy cavalry to move elsewhere (and light cavalry will be destroyed if foolish enough to try their luck), which is the idea of pikes: destroy the cavalry or force them to a more desirable place to be engaged.
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::buffs monocle, replaces it on his eye:: Ahem, if I may interject....
1) Pikes fight in 4 ranks from the front, and must use hand weapons for flank and rear attacks.
2) A pike unit is considered a Defended Obstacle from the front.
3) Pikes Always Strike First on the first round of combat if charged, regardless of any similar abilities. Note that this is pikes, the weapon, and therefore only applies to frontal charges. This represents their superior reach. In all subsequent rounds, pikes Strike Last due to their ungainly length.
4)Pikes do not double their movement for a charge; when declaring a charge a pike unit must be within it's normal movement to reach the enemy. If the charge fails, they move forward their full amount as normal.
I would accept these rules with one add on. Pikes are St4 Armour Piercing. It is just that against something that has a 1 up save the average amount of wounds a pike unit is going to cause against them is well
20 attacks hitting on 4s = 10
10 hits wounds on 4s = 5
5 wounds against a +1 save = 0
If you make that Strenght 4 AP then you have a unit that heavy Caverly as well as light should be afraid of
[/quote]
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Str4 AP is a possible option...certainly. I'd like to hear what some others have to say about it, but I agree that if a heavy cavalry unit can simply brush aside a charge into pikes, we've got it wrong. Pikes should be a cavalry deterrent, but not a cavalry deathtrap.
Basically, if a Bretonnian player were to see our pikes, would he shrug and charge us anyway, or pause for a moment and consider the wisdom of such a move? If the former, we've missed the mark. If the latter, we've got it. If he groans and mutters something about cheese, we may have gone too far. If the other empire players present groan and mutter something about cheese, we definitely have.
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Maybe only St4 AP against anything with movement 6+ and whatever they would normally be against anything else Strenght 3 I would say. I know this makes it slightly more complex but it would serve to do what a pike was designed to do, destroy heavy horse and leave them fairly open to attack from infantry, most noteably heavy infantry which could only be good.
Hell anything that has a 1+ Save still has a 3+ save against St4 Ap
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Maybe only St4 AP against anything with movement 6+ and whatever they would normally be against anything else Strenght 3 I would say. I know this makes it slightly more complex but it would serve to do what a pike was designed to do, destroy heavy horse and leave them fairly open to attack from infantry, most noteably heavy infantry which could only be good.
Hell anything that has a 1+ Save still has a 3+ save against St4 Ap
I think it only makes sense for these boni to apply against a charging foe, and the Unit strenght 2+ mechanism seems less arbitrary.
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Boni =/= English
Boni = Latin
Bonuses = English
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Maybe only St4 AP against anything with movement 6+ and whatever they would normally be against anything else Strenght 3 I would say. I know this makes it slightly more complex but it would serve to do what a pike was designed to do, destroy heavy horse and leave them fairly open to attack from infantry, most noteably heavy infantry which could only be good.
Hell anything that has a 1+ Save still has a 3+ save against St4 Ap
I think it only makes sense for these boni to apply against a charging foe, and the Unit strenght 2+ mechanism seems less arbitrary.
Of course they would only apply to people charging the front, though you might consider giving pikes the hedgehog upgrade that allows them to use their advantages on any side, but not on two sides at once.
The reason I chose movement 6+ is that it wipes out all infantry and includes everything else. It is just easier.
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Boni =/= English
Boni = Latin
Bonuses = English
Err... Bonus is a latin word, so yea.
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Hmm, hedgehog formation. That would likely make it impossible to advance in any kind of order, what having everyone standing at different angles. Perhaps it one could move into or out of hedgehog formation in the movement phase in place of marching and be unable to advance at all while in it.
I had an idea of similar utility, a pike square formation that could change facing as a charge reaction, or during a move without having to wheel, by pivoting all the models in the unit. Would also, of course, require special training and what-not.
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As someone who has advanced whilst in a "Hedgehog" formation, yes it is possible, its just slow (say half move, no marching)
Shiltron is a more proper term.
As for the +2 str bonus for pikes, consider why pikes are so good against Cav - basically you have a huge horse, and armoured man hurling themselves at high speed onto a sharpened point, their own mass and momentum drives them onto it.
Its Exactly why lances get +2 str on the charge, there is no difference between a lance and a pike, indeed many dismounted lancers used them as a sort of "half pike"
I would say that one of the definate rules pikes need is +2str against charging enemies with an individual Unit Stregnth of 2+ for the simple, logical reason that the precedent has been set already in lances.
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Hmm, hedgehog formation. That would likely make it impossible to advance in any kind of order, what having everyone standing at different angles. Perhaps it one could move into or out of hedgehog formation in the movement phase in place of marching and be unable to advance at all while in it.
I had an idea of similar utility, a pike square formation that could change facing as a charge reaction, or during a move without having to wheel, by pivoting all the models in the unit. Would also, of course, require special training and what-not.
Which would be expensive to proved. How is this for rule.
Pikeman M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 L7
Pikeman Champion M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 L7
Equiment:Heavy Armour, Pike
Points: 9
Special Rules
May upgrade one pikeman to pikeman champion +15 points
May upgrade one pikeman to standard bearer +8 points
May upgrade one pikeman to musician +8 points
May have Hedgehod formation +1 point per model
Hedgehog formation
Pike unit may about face as a charge reaction. Limited to normal movement. May not march while in hedgehog formation. May not charge.
Pike
1: Pike is ASF. No other reason magical or other wise will cause the foe to Strike Frist on the first round of combat
2: Pike is a +1 Strenght AP weapon against foes with 6+ movement
3: Pike fights in four ranks.
4: These rules only apply when charged to the front of the unit
5: Pike strikes last on every round of combat except the first.
What do you think? The Pikeman is a fairly expensive defensive option but in a world that is full of fast moving heavy hitting horsemen (chaos knights and the like) it might be a good thing. I would be fairly happy with them going up against a Blood Knight Deathstar if I knew I was getting 20 St4 AP attacks in first, rerolling to hit because of the hatrid my priest would cause.
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Too cheap. Four ranks at +1 Str AND AP? That's +4 pts/model right there, at least. HA + Human + 4 Ranks at +1 Str = 2 + 3 + 4 = 9. Toss in ASF - not just ASF, but ASF that beats all other ASF for another +2 per model, at least. And then it has a unit option that enables it to recieve a charge from - any side, or just the rear? - either way, that's certainly a +2 pts/model upgrade. Take off one pt for the "strikes last thereafter" - like there will be a thereafter, and even if there is, there are few enemies we strike before in Initiative anyway! - and we're looking at a 12 pt/model guy at least.
And I haven't even mentioned the detachment issue. Are they state troops? If so, why are they the only state troops with heavy armour? And if they are state troops, then add another point/model since they now strike first and (probably) deny rank bonuses to a charging enemy.
Consider this unit from the perspective of, say, the Undead. No shooting, so can't weaken it before combat that way. Troops are either a) hit on 3's by the pikemen and have a 4+ (so, 6+) save at best, or have a 2+ (4+) save but - at the cost of 28 pts/model - won't be sporting ranks. I'm leaving out things like Fell Bats and Dire Wolves simply because the idea of hitting pikes with them is laughable. That leaves Grave Guard, whose 5+ save probably isn't going to see enough of them survive that first thrust of the pikes to do any real damage (probably 4 dead in the first round, leaving one model striking the pikes, and then the GG lose 3 more models. Subsequent rounds don't improve much). In short, VC are left with solely the option of a) Black Coach (since Impact Hits will STILL go before Pikes, unless you're going to amend their rules even further) - and even that is a chancy option, relying more on Terror than damage inflicted - b) Wraiths - but then, there's nothing in the Empire list a full team of Wraiths won't tear apart in melee - or c) sheer overpowering magic (what most of us call "cheese). As a VC player, I don't want to be put in that position.
And on that Coach mention...how amusing is it that we'll need ANOTHER special rule to keep Chariots from hitting before pikes? On the same basis that "ASF but better than your ASF" is being handed out - namely, the reach of the weapons - they of course should go before Chariot Impact hits, since if the Chariot dies before reaching the unit it shouldn't cause any damage.
This is getting way too complicated way too fast. State Troop Infantry for the Empire has three marking traits - a) relatively normal human statline (swordsmen being the exception, but for well-put reasons); b) light armour, and only light armour; and c) low cost. 12 pt/model and more soldiers - who are still T3 with a 5+ or 6+ save - do not at all fall in the category of "cheap." Sometimes we have to trade "all the rules the weapons should have" for gaming mechanics and efficiency on the table.
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All in all its looking to me like the DoW pricing is actually pretty spot on :icon_lol:
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Let's see the math on blood knights:
20 Str 4 AP attacks: 10 hits.
10 Rerolls for hatred (only if warrior priest present, der): 5 additional hits, 15 total.
15 hits wound on a 4+: 8 wounds (rounded up)/5 without WP.
Armor save reduced to 4+: 4 wounds unsaved, 2 without WP.
Sound good to everyone? I'm not so sure about adding Hedgehog rules, we want to simplify the pike as much as possible. "Fight in Ranks" is already restricted to the front in the BRB pg 55, so no need to mention that here. So, to simplify:
1) Pikes count as a Defended Obstacle to the Front.
2) Pikes fight in 4 ranks.
3) Pikes are Str4 AP against enemies with a US of 2 or higher.
4) Pikes have ASF when charged in the first round of combat (no special exceptions to keep it simple). At all other times, pikes Strike Last.
5) Pikes may not double their movement when charging.
6) Requires two hands (almost forgot).
As for VC, we're talking about a single unit here. Pikes are SUPPOSED to be extraordinarily dangerous to cavalry. They're helpless from the flank, and I'm discussing JUST the weapon, not the trooper using it (I agree with light armor being the standard, maybe heavy as an upgrade).
Any commander who sees pikes should be realizing the folly of sending cavalry to engage them from the front. Under these rules pikes pose a very real threat to cavalry and big nasties, but not if attacked in the flanks or rear, and not to infantry (who only face Str3 attacks that strike last on the average round). It means, as an enemy, you have to think of how to maneuver around them. This is why I'm against the Hedgehog rule: I want to keep it simple and make sure there's a weakness to balance them.
Pikes will be slaughtered by elite infantry in droves, but punch big holes in heavy cav. Sounds fine to me, and balanced. No empire player would take ONLY pikes in an all-comers list, because he'd be screwed if anything on foot hit them, and tore through them like a hot knife.
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Let's see the math on blood knights:
20 Str 4 AP attacks: 10 hits.
10 Rerolls for hatred (only if warrior priest present, der): 5 additional hits, 15 total.
15 hits wound on a 4+: 8 wounds (rounded up)/5 without WP.
Armor save reduced to 4+: 4 wounds unsaved, 2 without WP.
Continuing on that - w/o WP.
So 2 dead, 3 BK still strike.
10 attacks, 6.7 hit, 5.6 kill.
And then 3 horses - so 6 more attacks - 3 hit, 2 kill.
So 7.6 (on an off day, 7 wounds to 2 in favor of the Knights).
Pikes: 2 + 3 (ranks) + 1 (outnumber) + 1 (banner) = 7
Knights: 7 + 1 (banner) = 8
Pikes still lose, statistically speaking. A single Gaze of Nagash tears the pikemen's odds down further. A Vanhel's Danse - granting the Knights rerolls on hits - helps even more. So no, under the 12-pt/model rules, they still don't necessarily halt cavalry in its tracks (and the math on Knights of Khorne is, of course, even worse with that 1+ save). Also, consider that Brets will NOT lose their lance formation; they, too, keep very good odds against Pikes. A couple extra casualties for twice the VPs of a block of spearmen. Awesome!
I also haven't seen any resolution on Pikes as State Troops. If they are, then aren't all the advantages listed + detachments overpowered? If they aren't, then what are they doing in the list at all?
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Uh, my pike rules would be grossly overpriced at 12 points a model. I was going with 8-9 poins.
I also would allow pikes to take detachments, because as you pointed out, they're still not going to be a nasty, burly unit. They'll take the charge, inflict some decent casualties (more if a WP is present, as always), and the detachment will help things in their favor.
Continuing your previous example, the flank charge alone pushes the combat to a draw. Assuming even one kill, pikes win the combat.
Pikes, like all empire troops, win by denying the enemy CR and working in tandem with their comrades. I see no reason for it to change just because they have an especially long spear.
I also see no reason for them to be any more expensive than 8-9 points considering that, like all state troops, they RELY on detachments to win combats, because (as you demonstrated), without flank charges and the possibility of extra kills from detachments, winning combat is statistically unlikely (to put it mildly).
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So 2 dead, 3 BK still strike.
10 attacks, 6.7 hit, 5.6 kill.
And then 3 horses - so 6 more attacks - 3 hit, 2 kill.
So 7.6 (on an off day, 7 wounds to 2 in favor of the Knights).
Pikes: 2 + 3 (ranks) + 1 (outnumber) + 1 (banner) = 7
Knights: 7 + 1 (banner) = 8
Just remember that the Chaos Knights loose any bonus that they get from charging.
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re: the reluctance of cavlry to charge the front of a pike phalanx, do a ld test based on the ld of the mount if that is failed the mount will not charge no matter what the rider wants. Cold one riders beware. Skeletal and ethereal steeds will still have some memory of life so they also will be reluctant in their primitive animal awareness.
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re: the reluctance of cavlry to charge the front of a pike phalanx, do a ld test based on the ld of the mount if that is failed the mount will not charge no matter what the rider wants. Cold one riders beware. Skeletal and ethereal steeds will still have some memory of life so they also will be reluctant in their primitive animal awareness.
I think that's making it too complex, honestly. We do need to sacrifice some realism for the sake of gameplay; not to mention one could argue that mounts of any nature that have been bred and trained for war are thoroughly driven to obey their owners rather than instinct.
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Just remember that the Chaos Knights loose any bonus that they get from charging.
The only bonus they get is striking first. Their default attacks are S5. Things like Khorne Knights and Blood Knights dish out 3 S5 and 2 S4 attacks per model. If our pikes are supposed to stop them, imagine how much damage they'll do to, say, our own knights - with 1 S5 and 1 S3 attack each.
As for no threat to infantry - I can't see Chaos Marauders, Goblins of any type, Skaven, or numerous other T3 light infantry caring to assail Pikes. 20 S3 attacks that strike first no matter what tricks I've got up my sleeve? My Druchii Assassin, who can cut the throat of a foe before he realizes a knife is out, can't slip between a couple of spears? High Elves will send...maybe Phoenix Guard. Swordmasters and White Lions wouldn't care to try, not with a detachment helping those pikes gain flank bonuses and deny ranks. But PG will kill, what, a pikeman or two? Not enough to overcome ranks, kills, and being flanked, that's for sure. Skaven can...umm...shoot, run, and repeat? Dwarves can send in Ironbreakers, but odds are good that even IBs won't shatter a pike block, and they will be flanked shortly. In short, this "infantry will mow through them" idea seems to operate on the premise that all armies have access to Chaos Warriors with Shields.
They don't.
Under the current rules - which the modified ones are looking a lot like - pikes are by far best against infantry. Their benefit against cavalry is the same as other infantry - ranks and numbers. A couple of heavy infantry units can match them, but the vast majority of infantry on the field can't take pikes, and these are DoW pikes, without detachments - and they're 10 pts a model with the crappiest ASF in the game, no AP, and no Defended Obstacle. Oh, and bonus strength only on the turn that they're charged.
What we're discussing here is an uber-unit, capable of matching virtually any foe in combat and probably breaking them without help from a seperate unit, but practically guaranteed to win with the aid of a detachment or cavalry unit. These things put Greatswords to shame. We're going to be talking about a unit that costs right around 300 pts before detachments. It's completely out of line from our other infantry choices. The unit becomes the Empire equivalent to Wraiths - expensive but so effective you can't help but take them.
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Um, Chaos Knights are S4. S5 with spears when charging. No Chariot busting knights here!
How about S3 AP?
1.11 wounds, for 6 total combat res.
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Um, Chaos Knights are S4. S5 with spears when charging. No Chariot busting knights here!
How about S3 AP?
1.11 wounds, for 6 total combat res.
Because Chaos Knights should fear pikes. No self respecting chaos knight is going to fear, well anything really because they are all crazy, but the certainly won't fear St 3 Ap. St4 AP though will get them as close to fear as they can come.
I see no problem with St4 AP against anything with movement 6+ and St3 no AP against the rest. Remember what we are representing here. Pikemen are heavy infantry. They are not like the rest of the infantry in the Empire. They come equipped to dish out heavy damage if they are charged but with no offensive value of their own. Therefore you will not see a rush to get pikes in the way Empire Generals have rushed to tool up their swordsmen because pikemen can't attack so they still need an attacking wing of their army.
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...
We aren't trying for real world realism here. These knights have seen and done such horrible things that they scare the living s**t out of you just by seeing them. They're 7'6" tall monsters on steeds the blacken the ground when they walk and spit brimstone. They're strong enough the crack through steel with their bare hands. They have Gods on their side, Gods that delight in all sorts of nefarious acts. They ally themselves with Monsters that can crush mountains, and some of them are able to throw fire and turn you inside out with a thought. The risk they take in worshiping those Gods is being turned into a giant fleshy thing of tentacles and spikes that still tries to kill everything, even though it doesn't have a mind.
These guys not only aren't going to be scared of pikes, they shouldn't be.
They'll laugh, then shred the pikes.
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Um, Chaos Knights are S4. S5 with spears when charging. No Chariot busting knights here!
Knights are S4 with magical hand weapons that grant +1 Str. True, they can carry lances - for 6 on the charge and 4 otherwise - but I'm not sure why they would...
They'll laugh, then shred the pikes.
Actually, I'd expect them to laugh while they shred the pikes... :happy:
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Oh. Thought they were spears for some reason...
And as for Blood Knights, well, I'd imagine they'd spear themselves purposefully, then lift the pikeman in question by the pike and eviscerate him while he's hanging in the air...
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Look, IF we get pikes, I'd like it to have three features:
1) Simple rules, as simple as can be managed.
2) Good against cavalry, but no promises on anything else.
3) Not outrageously expensive (7-9 points per model).
I'm not in favor of an expensive, cavalry shredding unit because that just isn't fluffy. The empire has regiments of men prepared to die for land and Sigmar, but not the elite and hardened warriors of Chaos, nor the superhumanly skilled elves, or ancient and powerful dwarfs. We're men, manly men with rugged bears and stout codpieces, but men still. I think having a unit to deal with those brutal cavalry and sturdy Bretonnians is fair, but it should not be overpowered, nor certain doom for them.
I don't want something super expensive because, if the cost is justified, they're likely powerful and elite (again, not fluffy). I don't mind if they only win on the CR, because that's ALREADY how we win. If pikes give us a few extra kills against cav and set up detachments for flank charges to win the day, that's enough for me. The tough part is making them vulnerable to enemy infantry.
Simple is another tough part; the rules I've written up could technically be simplified even further as follows:
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front (defended obstacle eliminates charge ASF as it is).
2) Against units with US2/Movement of 6" or higher (you guys decide which is more fair) pikes are S4 AP, and ASF in the first round of combat if charged by said unit.
3) Pikes fight in 4 ranks (again, RAW in the BRB already mean only to the front, no need for extra text)
4) Pikes Strike Last (rule two trumps this one, obviously).
Let's do the math with Blood Knights (elite heavy cav) and Ironbreakers (elite heavy infantry) versus my pikes (assumed light armor as all state troops, we can discuss heavy armor upgrade later; I'm more concerned about the weapon right now).
Blood knight CR, 5 men vs. 30 pikes, rounding to nearest whole on fractions.
20 S4 AP attacks: 10 hits
10 S4 AP hits: 5 Wounds
Knight Armor saved 2+ modified to 4+: 2 wounds unsaved.
Knights retaliate: 7 hits from knights, 3 from horses; total wounds caused 9, total saved 2.
CR is 7 pikes, 8 knights. However, just a flank charge makes it even. Add in a detachment of handguns, or even a SINGLE wound from a 3x3 combat block, and the combat is 1 point in favor of the Empire. Being undead, that means another wound (at least), which means in the following round you have 2 blood knights facing a good 4-6 attacks EACH even after chewing up a good handful of men, which means they're almost certainly dead even without a warrior priest.
So, with heavy cav facing eventual death at their front, I think we can agree that these pikes are effective as cavalry stoppers, even if CR must be factored in (fine by me, as I said that seems right for empire). How will they do against infantry?
20 Ironbreakers versus 30 pikes
20 S3 attacks: 10 hits.
10 S3 hits: 4 wounds, rounding up (worst case scenario for the enemy, we'll say).
3+ armor save: 3 saved, 1 wound.
Ironbreakers retaliate: 6 attacks: 4 hits, 3 wounds (rounding up), 1 saved on a good day.
IB CR: 2 + 1 (standard) + 3 (ranks) = 6.
Pikes: 1 + 1 (standard) + 3 (ranks) + 1 (outnumber) = 6.
Even, so I see the problem here: if we use detachments, these Ironbreakers could be in trouble from the get-go: wounds from handguns makes life ugly, and a flank charge turns a tied combat into a loss by three points. True, they could be stubborn and soldier on (they ARE dwarfs), and next round they'd cause about the same number of wounds, and would probably lose again. Maybe allowing infantry to strike first on the charge is the answer: in the preceding example, roughly 8 hits, 5 wounds, 4 unsaved. That means 16 pike attacks instead of 20, 8 hits, 3 wounds, 1 wound. Without detachments, IB win by 2. With, lose by 1. So, better but not good enough, I suppose.
So, any suggestions chaps? I would like to see pikes as a cavalry weapon, not an infantry weapon, and I concede that under the rules as written these are just as deadly to enemy infantry as cavalry; I see no way around it unless we make it more complicated. And if that's the only option, then I would rather not have them at all.
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Dont Ironbreakers get a 2+ save?
Gromril = 4+
Shield + Hand Weapon in melee = 5+
Total save = 2+?
You also havent factored in the hits possibly suffered on the flank units that would also count to the CR.
Pikes were superb at stopping cav, they were also excellent at stopping everyone else too, you seem to have forgotten that
I think the mechanics work and as a player opposing pikes, they simply become juicy targets for bolt throwers, cannon, mortars etc
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Indeed, Iron Breakers have a 2+ in CC. Still means that 3 saved, one dies.
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front
2) When charged, Pikes are S3 AP
3) When charged by a unit with Movement of 6" or higher pikes are S4 AP, and ASF in the first round of combat.
3) Pikes fight in 4 ranks
4) Pikes Strike Last
We all happy now?
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Indeed, Iron Breakers have a 2+ in CC. Still means that 3 saved, one dies.
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front
2) When charged, Pikes are S3 AP
3) When charged by a unit with Movement of 6" or higher pikes are S4 AP, and ASF in the first round of combat.
3) Pikes fight in 4 ranks
4) Pikes Strike Last
We all happy now?
Only one small change:
2) When charged, Pikes are S3 AP, if the charging infantry has shields. If not the are S3 AP ASF.
This is to represent the way that you deal with pikemen with infantry. Use the shield to push up the pike.
5) Pikes can not charge but advance into combat at the basic speed.
This is to ensure that they are a defensive unit.
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Nah, not really ;)
If we were changing the rules from the DoW (which have worked fine for me so far) then I would go a slightly different way
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front
2) When charged, Pikes are S+1 AP in the first round of combat.
3) When charged Pikes are ASF in the first round of combat.
3) Pikes fight in 4 ranks
Its simpler, its cleaner and there are no caveats to remember or forget and it matches in with how other weapons work too.
Oh and there is no reason from history to say pikes were only a defensive unit, quite the opposite.
Making rules up to deal with "how shields deal with pikes" is just plain silly, why not do the same for how "shields deal with sword blows". Its already factored in with their Armour Save bonuses.
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Under these rules, aren't they a bit overpowered at 8-9 points per model though? I mean, I'm the one screaming for simplicity, but it seems too good to make them S4 AP against even infantry, doesn't it? Or maybe I'm making too much of it...
EDIT: I'd forgotten about the armor save with hand weapon and shield, my bad. I didn't factor in kills from detachments because I was pointing out that, just to draw, the dwarfs HAVE to make kills, and lots of them, while the detachments do nothing. This was to see if anyone thought they were overpowered or not.
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And whats wrong with pushing the price up a little bit?
Knights cost a fortune compared to state troops, and are comensurately more powerful, pikes are a bit more powerful, in a specific set of circumstances so make them a bit more expensive.
They have to be bought in numbers to take best use of them (at least 20, if not 25 minimum) which makes them a points sink that can still run and lose those points all too easily, it also makes them much more vulnerable to warmachines, who dont need to be as accurate to hit masses of them.
If you want to tone them down a bit, knock of the AP as I personally cant see too much of an excuse for it
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front
2) When charged, Pikes are S+1 in the first round of combat.
3) When charged Pikes are ASF in the first round of combat.
4) Pikes fight in 4 ranks
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And whats wrong with pushing the price up a little bit?
Knights cost a fortune compared to state troops, and are comensurately more powerful, pikes are a bit more powerful, in a specific set of circumstances so make them a bit more expensive.
They have to be bought in numbers to take best use of them (at least 20, if not 25 minimum) which makes them a points sink that can still run and lose those points all too easily, it also makes them much more vulnerable to warmachines, who dont need to be as accurate to hit masses of them.
If you want to tone them down a bit, knock of the AP as I personally cant see too much of an excuse for it
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front
2) When charged, Pikes are S+1 in the first round of combat.
3) When charged Pikes are ASF in the first round of combat.
4) Pikes fight in 4 ranks
The problem is that in order to be effective against heavy horse they need to be +2 St or +1 St Ap. Otherwise the horse lord will look at them, smile sourly and send in his knights with a 1+ save and butcher them and they won't have even come close to doing what they should have.
As you said in order to fight 4 ranks deep you will need to bring 25-30 of them so you are talking 350 points for a full unit. 400 points if it has detatchements. I don't think the following rules
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front
2) When charged, Pikes are S+2 in the first round of combat against any foe of movement 6" and higher.
3) When charged Pikes are ASF in the first round of combat.
4) Pikes fight in 4 ranks
5) Pikes can't charge but advance into combat at the normal rate of movement.
are too advanced for such an expensive unit.
With regard to fluff I don not think it is correct to say that the Empire has no elite expenisve units. Greatswords are an elite expensive unit and also empire generals have the ability to hire Tillian pikemen. I think 9 points a model is about right given that they have light armour, WS3 and the stats for the pike above.
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Then put the AP back in
The problem as I see it with your rules is that they are simply too complicated, with too many caveats and most importantly bare no relation to how pikes were used or worked.
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front
2) When charged, Pikes are S+1 AP (OR a flat S+2) in the first round of combat.
3) When charged Pikes are ASF in the first round of combat.
4) Pikes fight in 4 ranks
Its simple, its streamlined, it has no unweildy caveats, it sort of represents how pike worked and how they were used (including being a very offensive weapon).
It has, ultimately, the right "feel" of saying - dont charge pike in the front unless you want to get mangled, but hit them in the flanks and they are going to crumble. Which is exactly how pike historically behaved, from Hoplites to Pavia.
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Then put the AP back in
The problem as I see it with your rules is that they are simply too complicated, with too many caveats and most importantly bare no relation to how pikes were used or worked.
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front
2) When charged, Pikes are S+1 AP (OR a flat S+2) in the first round of combat.
3) When charged Pikes are ASF in the first round of combat.
4) Pikes fight in 4 ranks
Its simple, its streamlined, it has no unweildy caveats, it sort of represents how pike worked and how they were used (including being a very offensive weapon).
It has, ultimately, the right "feel" of saying - dont charge pike in the front unless you want to get mangled, but hit them in the flanks and they are going to crumble. Which is exactly how pike historically behaved, from Hoplites to Pavia.
All this I agree with but I want to add
5) Pikes can't charge but must advance into combat at their normal speed
For anybody who has tried to run with a lowered 18 foot long stick will understand why. But also so that the SS (Swordsman symdrome) dose not become a PS (Pikeman symdrome)
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Been there, done it, not a problem
and if you do want to take that route, apply the same to spearmen and halberdiers too and invent a rule distinguishing between shock troops and line troops.
The only types of troops that actually charged full sprint into combat were warband type troops armed with big shields(vikings, saxons etc) and cavalry types. Others would close to impact the timing being more important than the shield rush, which they didnt have.
the main issue when charging is not controlling your weapon, but maintaining the formation that actually gives it any strength, and for trained troops, that easy at the jog, impossible at a charge.
And dont forget, pikes charging DONT get their strength and AP mod, and they lose a rank of attacks, its still massivly better for them to receive than to give, as it were...
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You guys do remember that most cavalry can't take a ranked-up infantry unit in the first place, right? There's a reason we don't send in six knights to run over a block of even mere Bret men-at-arms.
I'm not a terrible fan of constantly comparing pikemen against the penultimate heavy horse of Warhammer - Blood Knights and/or Khorne Knights. Those troops should and do tear through light infantry like tissue paper. They should be more properly compared to things like Knightly Orders, Silver Helms, and Bret Lances - where the reduction from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's is a painful one and makes the idea of a frontal charge considerably less appealing (and in the case of the Brets, losing the lance as well - yeowch!).
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Well, I think we're starting to hit a consensus; I'm in favor of the simplified rules worked out here, excluding the charge reduction (Uyrens brought up an interesting point that I think is very valid).
So, what's the cost per model, do you think?
9 per model means a good unit of 25 is 225, without command (which would push it to at least 250). If you want to equip them with heavy armor, they're going to shoot up to at least 300 with full command, depending on how much the upgrade costs.
Obviously, we have to consider that they need at least 20 men to be effective, and in practice will need closer to 30 to keep ranks after casualties, so this will not be a cheap unit to field, even if the cost per man is reasonable. That's fine by me. If the cost goes up, expect people to want more bang for their buck, and rightly so. If you spend 400+ points on a single block of infantry, you expect some results!
EDIT: Uryens, you're not in favor of them being Strike Last in other rounds, or do you feel that it's just too complex to worry about?
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1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front (defended obstacle eliminates charge ASF as it is).
2) Against units with US2/Movement of 6" or higher (you guys decide which is more fair) pikes are S4 AP, and ASF in the first round of combat if charged by said unit.
3) Pikes fight in 4 ranks (again, RAW in the BRB already mean only to the front, no need for extra text)
4) Pikes Strike Last (rule two trumps this one, obviously).
This would be perfect provided pikes strike first on the first round vs. anyone.
Add in the cannot move at double move while charging and you could have 8 pt. pikes, or 9 pt. with HA. Awesome!
Edit: Alright, scratch the no charge thing, 9 pts, 10 for heavy armor.
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K, just another go at it...
Pikes fight in 4 ranks.
* Seems to be agreed upon, established, and with plenty of precedent.
Pikes count as a Defended Obstacle to the front.
* The current Def. Obst. rules make this an obvious addition.
Pikes resolve combat at +2 Initiative.
* ASF seems to represent preternatural quickness, magic, etc. in this game. Pikes aren't that fast, but I will concede that their reach should grant them some level of bonus in how quickly they strike. A +2 Initiative (usually 5) means that they strike with or before most enemies. I don't like a "Strikes Last" rule or anything like that because a wall of pikes isn't a wall, persay, but more like a series of walls. The front rank fights the enemy twelve feet away, but the fourth rank fights the enemies who are within arms' reach of the first rank. Pikes are unarguably a good weapon no matter what the enemy, and shouldn't be penalized vs. infantry.
Pikes are Armour Piercing against models of US2+.
* In Warhammer, cavalry models recieve two benefits from a mount: a) speed and b) a +1 to the model's armour save. To represent their use against horse, pikes should take that bonus away, and AP does that perfectly. It doesn't need to apply only when charged - the pikes can still be used to skewer enemy horses, even after they've stopped. Barding is, of course, armour for the horse - and that bonus should absolutely stay for the cavalry.
Even if the horse is trained to do it, most cavalry won't just ride into a wall of pikes - they stop and move through carefully, thus the +2 I (above). So acting like every cavalry charge on a wall of pikes is exactly that is kind of silly. AP means that truly heavy cavalry - ie, Empire Knights or Chaos Knights - will move through relatively unimpeded but without lance bonuses. Everyone else will be reduced to "heavy infantry," and the detachment rules will take care of them from there.
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Its probably best to keep it as 100% simple as possible with as few rules as possible. Maybe this:
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle
2) Pikes fight in 4 Ranks.
3) When charged by US2+ models, pikes receive +1S and AP
8 or 9 points each. (I think 8 would probably be sufficient, but might need to be play tested)
The higher point cost is already a penalty to pikes, so they don't really need anymore. Most of the good Heavy infantry is going to strike before pikes anyway, even with the defended obstacle, but it takes away Lances. It other words, Chaos Warriors / Chosen, Sword Masters, bloodletters, etc should go first and still kill plenty of pikes, but it takes the teeth out of some Cav (Cav like Choas knights will still be able to eat a unit of Pikes, though). And, to be honest, its good to have some kind of infantry based counter to cav -- it encourages variety in the game.
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Micheal W I have seen my infantry slaughtered by knights more than I can care to imagine, 5 or 6 knights can do enough damage to see infantry run, Static CR is just not enough.
+2 initiative to pike works for me, but is that only on the charge or for all rounds, if its for all rounds, then no, I am still favouring ASF on the charge round, initiative after that.
Preternatural speed aside, its a bonus granted to charges, and pikes reach trumps that.
I would also give the flat bonus to stregnth for whoever charges, the pike is still set to receive and is either facing a huge beast and rider or a fully grown, armed and armoured warrior, either way the str of the attacker is driving them onto the points, (also its much simpler as well as being, to me, logical)
ok
1) Pikes count as a defended obstacle from the front
2) When charged, Pikes are S+1 AP in the first round of combat.
3) When charged Pikes are ASF in the first round of combat.
4) Pikes fight in 4 ranks
I did actually scratch out the ASF and put +2I and it just really, really didnt sit well with me.
The ASF might be a bit too much, but its the simple option, and that wins out, not just for me, but for GW (personally you can put all manner of rules in for me to tailor it better, but thats never gonna happen), the more I think about it and the more options raised, the more this looks like the best mechanic.
As for points, I think human, hand weapon, pike, light armour = 9 points, +1 for heavy armour.
3-400 points for that unit represents a reasonable investment imo.
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I like it, print it up.
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I just skimmed through all the posts but I wouldnīt make it as complicated, 4 rules to explain the pike are just over the top for warhammer (otherwise there should be four rules for halberdiers and four rules for archers also, as those weapons right now are also quite unrealistic compared to their "real life" equivalent)
I say
1) defended obstacle
2) fight in four ranks
light armour
empire soldier profile
state troopers
8 points a pop
command
champion 8 points (option for a greatweapon, halberd and/or pistol,and platemail as I would like to see this on all empire champions)
standard 8 points
musician 4 points
A unit of 20 models would be 160 points with full command 180 points drop in detachments and you have an awesome unit.
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Does anyone actually play test these rules or do you all just only talk about them! Can someone supply evidence to back up their arguments?
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Math hammer works!!!
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I agree that the mathematical approach can work but most of the arguments put forward are of the type;
"I think ......."
"I feel ........"
What I want to read is "I tried this....... and this happened".
Come on guys, put your money where your mouth is. If you want to make changes to the book do what the games developers do and simulate your new rules and post the result. The problem with mathhammer is it tends to be to simplistic as it can not count for all physical variables of how a new rule will interact during a full battle. Mathhammer only looks at the odds at a particular isolated combat and does not take into account the effects of the big picture IE. magic, characters special abilities, fleeing friends etc.
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If mathammer ruled the reasoning (I will not call it logic) of GW then there would be far more things to be changed. I mean books have so many obvious errors that I really doubt they have serious playtesting.
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If mathammer ruled the reasoning (I will not call it logic) of GW then there would be far more things to be changed. I mean books have so many obvious errors that I really doubt they have serious playtesting.
I can relieve you of your doubt!
They donīt have serious playtesting.
Still great game to play though.
Chambo your approach is ...well strange as it would mean I would have to use all the different pike units against all warhammer armies there are. I should also do more than one game to get any real statistics and I should use different builds of each armies, perhaps even different generals as even the "how the army is used" would go into the playtesting. As you see this would lead to an insane amount of 2h hour games (at least) with the final result....well guys if my pikes are charged in the flank they are dead ...and if they are charged in the front by chaos knights they are still dead in most cases. If they are strong in close combat they never reach combat to show how their rules would work against unit A or B (same thing that happens to swordmasters and black guard all over the warhammer world every day). The rules posted here by the guys are attempts to make the pike a fearsome infantry unit against cavalry (even heavily armoured) and therefore it makes greater sense to just play with the numbers instead of moving your 350 point infantry over the table never even seeing how much affect they have.
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So your saying that we cant use the vast number of empire players that visit this forum to playtest the pike rules with there various opponents and have the results posted, compiled and published as an army book.
Its our game, its our army, we should have input to the direction it takes. I bet most of us have just as much experience with games development as some GW staff. I've played table top war games for 20 years, I've written an endless number of house rules, scenario's and alternative army lists. I've even rewritten the entire 40K rules to reflect better the effects of weapons fire, urban fighting, communications and psychology, as I've been in the military and served in combat operations, I have seen the real life effects of warfare and didn't just read about it. My gaming group has used these rules for about 2 years now. Why don't we take control of our own hobby.
All I'm saying is I dont want to hear about opinions! I want to hear facts. Who has actually used pike with detachments? How did they go? What points cost would be appropriate? Should they be Core or Special? Does the empire need pike units to be competitive?
Are pike units with detachments unbalancing/ too powerful?
I don't know because I use DoW pike units and find them very effective in there own right.
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So your saying that we cant use the vast number of empire players that visit this forum to playtest the pike rules with there various opponents and have the results posted, compiled and published as an army book.
Its our game, its our army, we should have input to the direction it takes. I bet most of us have just as much experience with games development as some GW staff. I've played table top war games for 20 years, I've written an endless number of house rules, scenario's and alternative army lists. I've even rewritten the entire 40K rules to reflect better the effects of weapons fire, urban fighting, communications and psychology, as I've been in the military and served in combat operations, I have seen the real life effects of warfare and didn't just read about it. My gaming group has used these rules for about 2 years now. Why don't we take control of our own hobby.
All I'm saying is I dont want to hear about opinions! I want to hear facts. Who has actually used pike with detachments? How did they go? What points cost would be appropriate? Should they be Core or Special? Does the empire need pike units to be competitive?
Are pike units with detachments unbalancing/ too powerful?
I don't know because I use DoW pike units and find them very effective in there own right.
On a different topic, could you perhaps post your modified ruleset for 40k?
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Haven't tested anything, but...
If someone does, please see how the pike regiments work with a warrior priest in them?
6 ranks of 4, FC and a warrior priest. 24 attacks re-rolling misses, str 4 AP? Sounds downright nasty to me. I think that even if we kept the rules the same, DoW players would turn green with envy over that option which we have.
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If mathammer ruled the reasoning (I will not call it logic) of GW then there would be far more things to be changed. I mean books have so many obvious errors that I really doubt they have serious playtesting.
The approach GW takes on armybooks is as follows:
1) the basic concepts are laid out by the big bosses and agreed to (Priestley etc).
2) The concept is sent out to a designer.
3) The concept is playtested and tweaked till it works.
4) The result is sent back to the bosses, who then makes last minute edits without having been involved in the process at all, and sends the book to the printers.
(this is why you have say, the DE war hydra wich is underpriced, that was not intentional in the playtesting).
Now, as far as the pike rules, how will it be avoided that the pikes destroy nearly any infantry unit as a second thought? I see a whole lot of discussing exceptions and exceptional units here, but little in how the pikes will relate to say standard orc infantry, or even elite infantry that does'nt automatically have ASF, say the black guard of the dark elves?
My own suggestion, would be to support these basic rules:
1) models equipped and using the pike will fight in four ranks every turn in wich they did not charge.
2) when fighting unit strength 2 or more units to the front, models equipped and using the pike will gain the following:
a) Counts as defended obstacle and double their initiative.
b) gain the armour piercing special rule
c) gain +1 to strength.
This way the models will still be dangerous, the pike will still be a force to be reckoned with, even against non-cavalery but not to the same degree that it will need to be highly expensive.
(a might have the "and double their initiative" removed.)
I imagine them to cost around 8 points with this, light armour included in the cost.
Regards
Lars
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so essentially same same against infantry, but with new rules vs big stuff like ogres ,cav, chariots, monsters etc. I don't know I think I might extend the double intiative rule to any turn in which they were charged to their front. No one likes the hedgehog of death.
I might include a minimum starting unit size too, real practise with a pike unit indicates they need to be used in concert. Say 16.
I do still like the rules from the previous page though.
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I would suggest:
1. Fight in four ranks
2. Counts as a defended obstacle to the front.
3. Ignores AS bonus for being mounted and for barding (effectively AP vs. mounted models only, making them less effective against infantry - as they should be. I would actually give this bonus to all pole weapons too).
I would suggest this makes them highly effective against cavalry. They shouldn't be incredibly uber, but they should be able to hold a charge, and with a detachment potentially break even heavy cavalry.
Are they still too good vs. other infantry though?
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I think the biggest issue that pikes face is that pikes are strong, very strong, especially when priced correctly for their human status. Combine that with the benefits they'd get as state troops and they might be too good. Thirty pikes flanked by two detachments of swords/halberds and they would make many other units cry.
How about, instead we create a new troop type.
Tilean Mercenary.
Normal human stats with light armour and pike, with heavy armour option. 8/9 points.
Don't count as compulsory core choices (though they are core options) and can never be parent or detachment units.
It adds the pikes to the army while leaving state troops like spears with very clear advantages.
There should also be two new special choices.
Imperial Dwarves. Normal Dwarf stats and rules, light/heavy armour, shield, great weapon/crossbow/dwarf handgun options. Not longbeards.
Halflings. Halfling stats, light armour, shield, spear, bow options.
Because of the slot they occupy they won't be overused. Given the choice between a unit of Halflings and a great cannon... well generally I'd take the cannon. However they'd add a bit of the "weird Empire" look that is a little lacking at the moment.
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they might be too good. Thirty pikes flanked by two detachments of swords/halberds and they would make many other units cry.
What you mean like black guard and blood knights do? or what about ratman gunlines?
bearing those in mind the thirty pikemen you mentioned above don't seem so overpowered to me.
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Now you're comparing a core human choice against the elite of Dark Elves and Vampire Counts?
What do you want, always strikes first at strength six, 1+ ward save, three attacks each?
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:icon_rolleyes:now your being silly, look back a couple of posts and you'll see I'm in favor of an improved (or at least variable) armor save, and a better interpretation of what a pike represents to cavalry, and having to pay for this in the troop cost. The paying for this in the troop cost will of course put these troop-s into the special/elite category, at least in so far as mere humans can be compared to elites from other races.
My whole goal for the core units of the empire is choice choice choice. If you want to arm a unit of imperial dwarves with heavy armour and halberds you should be able to do so if you want a unit of halfling pikemen without armour also you should be able to do so. Likewise for the arming of handgunners with pavises, greatswords with pollaxes and so on.
By doing this with our core and special troops we then would have the ability to represent with our army list any aspect of an army or indeed any fluff of any province or local militia.
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I offered a combination that would allow pikes to be taken, without making them so good that people would rarely take anything else (other than handgunners).
I would like to see the Empire get more options. I would love to see swordsmen with heavy armour options. I would like to see an armybook more like the fifth/fourth edition which included non-human units. With the new core/special/rare organisation it's possible to ensure that humans don't become extinct in their own army (the justification of the previous armybook) by keeping the non-humans out of the core options.
Pikes are very good, even now when they're somewhat overpriced. Putting them at a proper human cost, then adding the state troop benefits does offer a significant power boost. Whether or not it could be considered overpowered is down to what you compare it to. Obviously it's not overpowered compared to the uber Dark Elf unit, but then you can build an entire army of state troops if you want to.
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Fair enough I suppose we are in agreement it's just down to making sure that a 12 point model is about on par with another 12 point model, whatever their core, special,rare classification. The page 2 rules which i had originally said write-em-up about I figure would be worth about 3 points per model, ymmv. The page 3 rules looked to be a bit more, again YMMV.
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I hardly think pikes are VERY good at the moment; they're overpriced, and decent, but I think our current units are superior. I don't think giving them State Troop status would make them so desirable you'd never take anything else. Well, the heavy armor might, but I see no reason to give Empire pikes heavy armor by default either. As for non-human specials, I am very much against the idea.
Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't mind seeing non-humans in the Empire, but our special slots are strained enough as it is. Between greatswords, pistoliers, and great cannons, most people's four slots are spoken for in any given list before they even pick their core choices. Perhaps making them a rare option, or maybe even an entirely DIFFERENT army list within the Empire book. Perhaps one list is a sort of "Imperial Regulars" list, with the current list, and the second might be a militia, or fringes, or private army list, featuring things like pikes, dwarfs, halflings, and such. I don't know, really. I just think the LAST thing we need is more special choices (particularly tempting ones).
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Non human core, but must never number more than the humans. ?
thoughts?
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Interesting concept...perhaps for every unit of non-humans, you must take one unit of state troops (otherwise you could see people taking archers or militia and using non-humans for main combat blocks), or something like that. Sort of like how Longbeards are done with the dwarf army.
It could be a neat idea, to be sure...
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Non-humans?.. :|...
Actually... I'm fleeing from the Imperial grounds as we're speaking!
I'm rising a mercenary army, so... problem solved!
Sorry...I can't wait for GW to decide IF they will include those precious units in the Empire again. The way I see it, you can only dream of it -Probably ain't gonna happen
::heretic:: -please don't hate me- :laugh:
Now... using Pikes AND Detachment system (meaning fighting in three-four ranks AND benefit from flank-charges ETC.)..... I think you see the point :-P
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Alotb of heated argument over the pikes.
I have used pikes before, two blocks of twenty in a small game (1000pts) DoW and they were a nice investment, nobody wanted to charge them and that allowed my heavy cav and duelists to herd my enemy into position so i could charge.
Come on guys we have to remember pikes were an extremely powerful unit back in the day, brutally effective against cav and infantry. When pike formations charge its like Uryens said, timing. The only time Pikemen would walk into a fight would be if they were facing other pikemen.
I vote pikemen, 8 points, state trooper stats.
1) defended obstacle if charged(to the front)
2)fight in four ranks
3) against anything unit strength 2 and above S+1 AP
4)State troops
State troops is in there as in empire fluff it says pike units replace spears in the southern half of the empire. So that is my reasoning. :happy:
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State troops is in there as in empire fluff it says pike units replace spears in the southern half of the empire
good thinking. der Hurenwiebel had also right -Pike is an imperial weapon
If GW considers Pikemen too powerful for joining the Imperial forces, they could add the 0-1 entry limitation for this unit and give them the Alcatani's fellowship stats.
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in 7th ed GW have been doing away with 0-1 etc. limitations (except for Direwolf dumb as. FAQ's on War Altars).
2ndly Pikes in the warhammer sense of the word are really a tilean weapon not Empire. Yes the lower states may have half-pikes etc. but I really don't think Empire should have access to Pike except as DoW personally.
Unless DoW disapears totally (which it hasn't). If you really want pikes then use DoW pikemen.
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Hey if there is an unknown army book for Tilea then can you point me in its direction?
Tilea has the majority of men armed with pike in fluffy stories but by no means does that stop everyone from taking pikes just because one country has it. . .
Heck I mean everyone in the fifteenth century had pikes because they were so brutally effective.
Does that mean by that reasoning that the empire cannot field knights because of Brettonia?
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...but I really don't think Empire should have access to Pike except as DoW...
Unless DoW disapears totally-
NOOO! :-o Don't say that!! :-P :laugh: :laugh:
I think that certain weapons have to exist only into certain armies, too
For e.g the Empire is stuffed with handguns, but mercenaries are stuffed with pistols! This kind of restriction gives personality to an army
But since Pikes are so popular, 1 unit as a special choice with the 0-1 limitation, wouldn't hurt that much..
Maybe...just maybe... As Middenheim has the WolfGuard-something and Reikland has Greatswords, Wissenland could use Pikes instead! How's this?
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It is unlikely that the DOW armies will return in their old form, perhaps and this is a thin perhaps they will return as a tilean army, with a human focus. For this reasoning I propose as well as many others already stated here that the empire have pikes, and not merely as a 0-1 restricted type of unit. Pikes epitomised infantry combat from the middle of the 15th cent to the end of spear armed troops in the late 17th century, they really were the queen of battle. At their heyday which was during the landesknecht period from 1480- 1550ish the armoured pikeman was what armies were built around. Not handguns not armoured cavalry, not artillery. As these other branches of the army grew better able to deal with rate of fire, or mutated into lighter more modern forms like the carabiners of the Kaiserlicher Ritterknecht the landesknecht period closed and the pikeman was no longer as important.
So in our fantasy version of the Holy Roman Empire is is not unreasonable to want pikes, its also not unreasonable to not have pikes and lots of pistol or handgun armed light cavalry or nearly any variant of handweapon armed soldier, the RW HRE was a fecking huge place with many cultures within it and by all accounts the fantasy version is bigger. So why fight it let the soldiers of the empire of sigmar fight in the manner that seems best to them and build an army list to reflect that. Go for choice.
Pikes as a weapon option for statetroops 3 points from base
this would mean +2 points to an off the shelf spearman=7pts
add heavy armour for 1 point per model=8pts since they cannot have shields
allow this as an elite infantry weapon as well replacing the greatswords greatweapon with pikes for free, -3pts +3pts =same price. Afterall an Emperor from our world fought in a landesknecht pike phalanx why wouldn't KF also fight with that same weapon with his own personal bodyguard.
and there is precedent for full plate pikes in the DOW.
Nuff said for now
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Second that
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Hi All,
I personally think that adding a pikemen unit in Empire army list is great idea. This is my arguments:
1. Units should reflect what is in fluff of the army. You can find many information about Empire army in the book Riders of the Dead by Dan Abnett (quite good book by the way). It is written there that Empire army consist mainly of pikemen, and pike block is the standard formation in this army.
2. Empire is similar to HRE in our world, and in landsknecht armies pike was the main weapon (many of you stated this before).
3. Bringing pikes into Empire makes it's infantry useful again, and I think useless infantry is one of the main problems in Empire army nowadays.
4. Pike blocks makes detachment rule more important, because pikemen have very vulnerable flanks. So this makes other infantry units also more important.
5. Empire has rather defensive army. It don't attack its neighbours, but usually have to fight back. And pike is great defensive weapon, which fits ideally into Empire army.
6. Empire is full of great commanders, who could invented such sophisticated system of fighting like detachments, so I think they also can see that pike is just much better weapon than spear.
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Second this
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It should be remembered that pikes, over time, generally caused the opponent to do one of two things:
1. Shoot them, or
2. Use TACTICS and outmanuever them.
Tactics should consist of more than figuring out which units to send against what. (What's the weakest unit I can send my uberkilly elite unit against)
It should also consist of how to manuever so as to apply overwhelming force at the desired point. Pikes might force some of us to actually manuever instead of just lining up and going at it. What a concept. ::heretic::
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A terrible thing I know. What would demons and vampire counts do..............
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pout.
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I have discovered a problem with this new shiny light of the empire. I have been play testing it using the following rules.
Pikeman follows states for halbardier. (8 points, 9 with Heavy Armour) One unit can be ungraded to elite pike and can have full plate Armour for +2 points and +1 WS for +2 points. The list I end up with tends, at 2000 points to have two blocks of pikes and other stuff. The rules I use are as follows.
1) ASF on first round of combat
2) Fight 4 ranks deep
3) +1 S Ap verses anything of US2 or movement of 6+
4) State Troops
The problem is simple enough but it is a big problem against a good foe. These units will shred anything that attacks them from the front, more so if they are the elite pikes but their flanks are a problem. A really problem. I three games I have had my foe crash through the flank support and roll up my line. Even given the powerful rules for them I have been using they are not an easy troop to use. Anything of movement 7/8 can get around the flanks, more so if they are light cavalry. I think all this argument about pikes been too powerful from the front is a bit redundant because after my first foe charge in a unit of empire knights of the white wolf and got butchered I suddenly found his entire army wheeling around to head for my flanks and because of the large units and cost of a pike army I found that my battle line was quite short. Yes in play testing they are a powerful unit but only when they are used right
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Why are they eight points base?
so for weapon skill four, 4+ save your looking at fourteen points? that is not cricket. for two more points i can get a chaos warrior with a 2+ save in combat and the stats of a captain of the empire.
Play them with a points reduction next time and dont let the opponent flank you lol. . . I think I will start a play test soon. . .
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the problem is that if I lower them to seven points or even six points they would conflict with other state troops
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Pike and shot bocks were supposed to make mincemeat of everything to the front, thats why they got the crap shot out of them by...
great cannon
pistoleers
handgunners
mortars
lots of tightly packed troops, lovely artillery target.
And a unit representing 3-400 points, upto 20% of the army? Got to be worth shooting at?
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And a unit representing 3-400 points, upto 20% of the army? Got to be worth shooting at?
Sounds like my Dogs of War army. :)
I'd say use the rules for pikes in the new Dogs of War book on dogsofwaronline. They're trying to get it accepted for the next Indy.
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I liked Michael W's suggestion at the start, but, having skipped several pages of discussion, don't feel qualified to argue for it.
Other than saying, of course, that making Pikes 4 ranks/Defended Obstacle fits in with the 'simplify' theme running in GW at the moment, and would happily decrease their points cost.
On a historical note, the bill (a weapon a lot like a halberd) was used against Pikes with great effect. The battle of Flodden was lost by the Scots pike blocks after a smaller number of English bill-men simply lopped the ends of their pikes and then slaughtered the now defenceless pikemen up close.
In other words - against trained infantry, a pike block should not be invincible. If English bill men can wreak merry havoc with Scots pikes, then ASF High Elves should be able to do the same with Empire pikemen.
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yeah the english bill was a gardening tool adapted for war. It was basically a blade curved into a hook for chopping limbs off trees up high or out from the main trunk where a gardener couldn't climb. This hooked blade invariably had a crossbar beneath it which would be used to rest the pike blade against while the hooked blade was against the wood, a few tugs to cut into the wood and a bit of leverage against the haft bye bye pike head.
and yeah light cav/ flanking units were the bane of pike.
the a la carte menu of adding skills, weapons and armour for building a pikeman should begin at base 4 points.