Topic: The Pike

[commandant]

Dragons don't care how long your pike is. Heavily armored Dwarfs will just kind of walk in. Chaos knights and Elves can move fast enough to smash the pikes aside without getting hit.

It's not so much that I don't like your rules, or think they are too complicated, but that Michael W's are simpler.

A Dragon dosn't care how long your pike is because of its hide.   It still gets hit and anyway Dragons seldom face solid walls of pikes.

Elves are fast, this is true, however you must remember the lenght of a pike.   They are not fast enough to get around the pikes, because its a solid wall, and they can't go over them or under them so they must go through them and take casualties.

Just two issues with the uber-pikes.  First, cost:  +1 Str in 4 ranks with ASF at Init 11?  3 pts (human) + 1 (light armour) + 2 (4 ranks but two hands) + 4 (+1 str per rank) + 2 (+1 extra str vs lots of other stuff) +1 (ASF) +1 (Init 11, in effect) - 1 (can't charge)= 13 pts/model or thereabouts.  I play DoW now, and my pikes rarely see the table since 10 pts/model for a human in light armour is simply more than I care to pay. 

Hmmm.   The added strength is to represent the force of the momentium been driven into the pike.   Therefore we don't need to pay for it.   I would say that a pikeman following my rules should cost 8 points with +1 if you want to upgrade to heavy armour and +3 if you want to upgrade to full plate.

Human (4), light armour (1), pike (3).   Considering that you get a spear, light armour and a shield for six points I don't think that it is very unreasonable to charge 8 points for a pike with no shield.   There is no need for pikemen to be anything other than I3 indeed because of how unwhieldly the weapon is I would suggest that they be I2.

The other issue is that, if we're aiming for historical accuracy, then the pike is only a useful weapon on a clear and open field.  So a minor addition to the rules might run as follows:

Just Too Long:  Pikes are too unwieldy to be used when the ground is not level and open.  A unit armed with pikes reverts to hand weapons when it or the unit it is engaged with are in any type of difficult terrain (including buildings, forests, water features, rough hills, etc.).

This could be a useful rule.   However strangly enough pike work very effectivly in forests where you can use the trees to form as well.

I am not saying I dislike your rules.   Just that I feel that they do not completly represent what a pike is and that much is lost in the interest of being simple.

[t12161991]

8 points for something that totally kills my cavalry, one on one, when my cavalry is 26 points a piece?

Hmmm.   The added strength is to represent the force of the momentium been driven into the pike.   Therefore we don't need to pay for it.   I would say that a pikeman following my rules should cost 8 points with +1 if you want to upgrade to heavy armour and +3 if you want to upgrade to full plate.

Why wouldn't you have to pay for it? It's a special rule of the equipment, therefore it must cost something...

[commandant]

8 points for something that totally kills my cavalry, one on one, when my cavalry is 26 points a piece?

Hmmm.   The added strength is to represent the force of the momentium been driven into the pike.   Therefore we don't need to pay for it.   I would say that a pikeman following my rules should cost 8 points with +1 if you want to upgrade to heavy armour and +3 if you want to upgrade to full plate.

Why wouldn't you have to pay for it? It's a special rule of the equipment, therefore it must cost something...


Not really.   A long stick with a metal head is a long stick with a metal head.   If you want to come charging it then you have to accept that its going to do damage.

[t12161991]

So what you're saying is that the pike unit should be costed without taking into account the actual effect of the pike itself, because it's the enemy's own fault if they make the mistake of charging the pike unit?

 

[Michael W]

In that case, I want my Greatswords for 8 pts/model, since their greatsword is just an over-sized hand weapon...

[Toro_Blanco]

::buffs monocle, replaces it on his eye:: Ahem, if I may interject....

I find myself caught between two points of view on here; firstly, the pike is a weapon meant to pose a major, very real threat to cavalry.  If I'm not mistaken, heavy cavalry were utterly demolished when making frontal charges on pike regiments, the impetus of their shocking charges was nearly always disrupted to the point of ineffectiveness due to casualties.  So, a pike should pose a rather serious threat to enemy cavalry, regardless of point value.  One could argue that it would be common sense for a cavalry commander to avoid pikes, and pay the price if he chooses to charge them on the front.

However, I think perhaps the strength bonus takes things too far.  I feel a simplification of the rules is in order, and I pose the following rules, taking into account both the existing rules and the discussed modifications here:

1) Pikes fight in 4 ranks from the front, and must use hand weapons for flank and rear attacks.
2) A pike unit is considered a Defended Obstacle from the front.
3) Pikes Always Strike First on the first round of combat if charged, regardless of any similar abilities.  Note that this is pikes, the weapon, and therefore only applies to frontal charges.  This represents their superior reach.  In all subsequent rounds, pikes Strike Last due to their ungainly length.
4)Pikes do not double their movement for a charge; when declaring a charge a pike unit must be within it's normal movement to reach the enemy.  If the charge fails, they move forward their full amount as normal.

To me, this is a fair and simple way of handling pikes, without making them excessively powerful.  Heavy cavalry will be seriously deterred from charging them; between losing their lances, being struck first in combat despite any special abilities, and potentially losing retaliatory attacks due to casualties from all the attacks (as many as 16 of them for a basic bretonnian lance charge).  There are some drawbacks; pikes are mostly defensive in nature, so generals who find themselves needing to go on the offensive will find them frustrating to move into combat.  Pikes that charge the enemy lose their potent ASF, making them vulnerable to enemies smacking aside the spearheads and hacking off the ends, and then being ripped apart as they work with their ungainly weapons.  This too is historically accurate, for that is precisely what greatswords were designed to do: throw pikes into disarray so other soldiers could get past them.

Cost?  Well, I think 8 is in line with it, because we don't want to price them out of existence, and under these rules a decently armored foe is going to take some serious damage (as they should), but it's not the guaranteed deathtrap that 16+ S5 attacks represents.  A pike unit will force enemy cavalry to move elsewhere (and light cavalry will be destroyed if foolish enough to try their luck), which is the idea of pikes: destroy the cavalry or force them to a more desirable place to be engaged.

[commandant]

::buffs monocle, replaces it on his eye:: Ahem, if I may interject....


1) Pikes fight in 4 ranks from the front, and must use hand weapons for flank and rear attacks.
2) A pike unit is considered a Defended Obstacle from the front.
3) Pikes Always Strike First on the first round of combat if charged, regardless of any similar abilities.  Note that this is pikes, the weapon, and therefore only applies to frontal charges.  This represents their superior reach.  In all subsequent rounds, pikes Strike Last due to their ungainly length.
4)Pikes do not double their movement for a charge; when declaring a charge a pike unit must be within it's normal movement to reach the enemy.  If the charge fails, they move forward their full amount as normal.

I would accept these rules with one add on.   Pikes are St4 Armour Piercing.   It is just that against something that has a 1 up save the average amount of wounds a pike unit is going to cause against them is well

20 attacks hitting on 4s = 10
10 hits wounds on 4s = 5
5 wounds against a +1 save = 0

If you make that Strenght 4 AP then you have a unit that heavy Caverly as well as light should be afraid of





[/quote]

[Toro_Blanco]

Str4 AP is a possible option...certainly.  I'd like to hear what some others have to say about it, but I agree that if a heavy cavalry unit can simply brush aside a charge into pikes, we've got it wrong.  Pikes should be a cavalry deterrent, but not a cavalry deathtrap.

Basically, if a Bretonnian player were to see our pikes, would he shrug and charge us anyway, or pause for a moment and consider the wisdom of such a move?  If the former, we've missed the mark.  If the latter, we've got it.  If he groans and mutters something about cheese, we may have gone too far.  If the other empire players present groan and mutter something about cheese, we definitely have.

[commandant]

Maybe only St4 AP against anything with movement 6+ and whatever they would normally be against anything else Strenght 3 I would say.   I know this makes it slightly more complex but it would serve to do what a pike was designed to do, destroy heavy horse and leave them fairly open to attack from infantry, most noteably heavy infantry which could only be good.

Hell anything that has a 1+ Save still has a 3+ save against St4 Ap

[Eardatch]

Maybe only St4 AP against anything with movement 6+ and whatever they would normally be against anything else Strenght 3 I would say.   I know this makes it slightly more complex but it would serve to do what a pike was designed to do, destroy heavy horse and leave them fairly open to attack from infantry, most noteably heavy infantry which could only be good.

Hell anything that has a 1+ Save still has a 3+ save against St4 Ap

I think it only makes sense for these boni to apply against a charging foe, and the Unit strenght 2+ mechanism seems less arbitrary.

[t12161991]

Boni =/= English

Boni = Latin

Bonuses = English

[commandant]

Maybe only St4 AP against anything with movement 6+ and whatever they would normally be against anything else Strenght 3 I would say.   I know this makes it slightly more complex but it would serve to do what a pike was designed to do, destroy heavy horse and leave them fairly open to attack from infantry, most noteably heavy infantry which could only be good.

Hell anything that has a 1+ Save still has a 3+ save against St4 Ap

I think it only makes sense for these boni to apply against a charging foe, and the Unit strenght 2+ mechanism seems less arbitrary.

Of course they would only apply to people charging the front, though you might consider giving pikes the hedgehog upgrade that allows them to use their advantages on any side, but not on two sides at once.   
The reason I chose movement 6+ is that it wipes out all infantry and includes everything else.   It is just easier.

[Eardatch]

Boni =/= English

Boni = Latin

Bonuses = English

Err...   Bonus is a latin word, so yea.

[Eardatch]

Hmm, hedgehog formation. That would likely make it impossible to advance in any kind of order, what having everyone standing at different angles. Perhaps it one could move into or out of hedgehog formation in the movement phase in place of marching and be unable to advance at all while in it.

I had an idea of similar utility, a pike square formation that could change facing as a charge reaction, or during a move without having to wheel, by pivoting all the models in the unit. Would also, of course, require special training and what-not.

[Uryens de Crux]

As someone who has advanced whilst in a "Hedgehog" formation, yes it is possible, its just slow (say half move, no marching)

Shiltron is a more proper term.

As for the +2 str bonus for pikes, consider why pikes are so good against Cav - basically you have a huge horse, and armoured man hurling themselves at high speed onto a sharpened point, their own mass and momentum drives them onto it.

Its Exactly why lances get +2 str on the charge, there is no difference between a lance and a pike, indeed many dismounted lancers used them as a sort of "half pike"

I would say that one of the definate rules pikes need is +2str against charging enemies with an individual Unit Stregnth of 2+ for the simple, logical reason that the precedent has been set already in lances.

[commandant]

Hmm, hedgehog formation. That would likely make it impossible to advance in any kind of order, what having everyone standing at different angles. Perhaps it one could move into or out of hedgehog formation in the movement phase in place of marching and be unable to advance at all while in it.

I had an idea of similar utility, a pike square formation that could change facing as a charge reaction, or during a move without having to wheel, by pivoting all the models in the unit. Would also, of course, require special training and what-not.

Which would be expensive to proved.   How is this for rule.

Pikeman               M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 L7
Pikeman Champion M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I3 W1 A1 L7

Equiment:Heavy Armour, Pike

Points: 9

Special Rules
May upgrade one pikeman to pikeman champion  +15 points
May upgrade one pikeman to standard bearer     +8 points
May upgrade one pikeman to musician               +8 points
May have Hedgehod formation                          +1 point per model

Hedgehog formation
Pike unit may about face as a charge reaction.   Limited to normal movement.   May not march while in hedgehog formation.   May not charge.

Pike
1: Pike is ASF.   No other reason magical or other wise will cause the foe to Strike Frist on the first round of combat
2: Pike is a +1 Strenght AP weapon against foes with 6+ movement
3: Pike fights in four ranks.
4: These rules only apply when charged to the front of the unit
5: Pike strikes last on every round of combat except the first.


What do you think?   The Pikeman is a fairly expensive defensive option but in a world that is full of fast moving heavy hitting horsemen (chaos knights and the like) it might be a good thing.   I would be fairly happy with them going up against a Blood Knight Deathstar if I knew I was getting 20 St4 AP attacks in first, rerolling to hit because of the hatrid my priest would cause.

[Michael W]

Too cheap.  Four ranks at +1 Str AND AP?  That's +4 pts/model right there, at least.  HA + Human + 4 Ranks at +1 Str = 2 + 3 + 4 = 9.  Toss in ASF - not just ASF, but ASF that beats all other ASF for another +2 per model, at least.  And then it has a unit option that enables it to recieve a charge from - any side, or just the rear? - either way, that's certainly a +2 pts/model upgrade.  Take off one pt for the "strikes last thereafter" - like there will be a thereafter, and even if there is, there are few enemies we strike before in Initiative anyway! - and we're looking at a 12 pt/model guy at least. 

And I haven't even mentioned the detachment issue.  Are they state troops?  If so, why are they the only state troops with heavy armour?  And if they are state troops, then add another point/model since they now strike first and (probably) deny rank bonuses to a charging enemy. 

Consider this unit from the perspective of, say, the Undead.  No shooting, so can't weaken it before combat that way.  Troops are either a) hit on 3's by the pikemen and have a 4+ (so, 6+) save at best, or have a 2+ (4+) save but - at the cost of 28 pts/model - won't be sporting ranks.  I'm leaving out things like Fell Bats and Dire Wolves simply because the idea of hitting pikes with them is laughable.  That leaves Grave Guard, whose 5+ save probably isn't going to see enough of them survive that first thrust of the pikes to do any real damage (probably 4 dead in the first round, leaving one model striking the pikes, and then the GG lose 3 more models.  Subsequent rounds don't improve much).  In short, VC are left with solely the option of a) Black Coach (since Impact Hits will STILL go before Pikes, unless you're going to amend their rules even further) - and even that is a chancy option, relying more on Terror than damage inflicted - b) Wraiths - but then, there's nothing in the Empire list a full team of Wraiths won't tear apart in melee - or c) sheer overpowering magic (what most of us call "cheese).  As a VC player, I don't want to be put in that position. 

And on that Coach mention...how amusing is it that we'll need ANOTHER special rule to keep Chariots from hitting before pikes?  On the same basis that "ASF but better than your ASF" is being handed out - namely, the reach of the weapons - they of course should go before Chariot Impact hits, since if the Chariot dies before reaching the unit it shouldn't cause any damage. 

This is getting way too complicated way too fast.  State Troop Infantry for the Empire has three marking traits - a) relatively normal human statline (swordsmen being the exception, but for well-put reasons); b) light armour, and only light armour; and c) low cost.  12 pt/model and more soldiers - who are still T3 with a 5+ or 6+ save - do not at all fall in the category of "cheap."  Sometimes we have to trade "all the rules the weapons should have" for gaming mechanics and efficiency on the table.

[Uryens de Crux]

All in all its looking to me like the DoW pricing is actually pretty spot on 

[Toro_Blanco]

Let's see the math on blood knights:

20 Str 4 AP attacks: 10 hits.
10 Rerolls for hatred (only if warrior priest present, der): 5 additional hits, 15 total.
15 hits wound on a 4+: 8 wounds (rounded up)/5 without WP.
Armor save reduced to 4+: 4 wounds unsaved, 2 without WP.

Sound good to everyone?  I'm not so sure about adding Hedgehog rules, we want to simplify the pike as much as possible.  "Fight in Ranks" is already restricted to the front in the BRB pg 55, so no need to mention that here.  So, to simplify:

1) Pikes count as a Defended Obstacle to the Front.
2) Pikes fight in 4 ranks.
3) Pikes are Str4 AP against enemies with a US of 2 or higher.
4) Pikes have ASF when charged in the first round of combat (no special exceptions to keep it simple).  At all other times, pikes Strike Last.
5) Pikes may not double their movement when charging.
6) Requires two hands (almost forgot).

As for VC, we're talking about a single unit here.  Pikes are SUPPOSED to be extraordinarily dangerous to cavalry.  They're helpless from the flank, and I'm discussing JUST the weapon, not the trooper using it (I agree with light armor being the standard, maybe heavy as an upgrade).

Any commander who sees pikes should be realizing the folly of sending cavalry to engage them from the front.  Under these rules pikes pose a very real threat to cavalry and big nasties, but not if attacked in the flanks or rear, and not to infantry (who only face Str3 attacks that strike last on the average round).  It means, as an enemy, you have to think of how to maneuver around them.  This is why I'm against the Hedgehog rule: I want to keep it simple and make sure there's a weakness to balance them.

Pikes will be slaughtered by elite infantry in droves, but punch big holes in heavy cav.  Sounds fine to me, and balanced.  No empire player would take ONLY pikes in an all-comers list, because he'd be screwed if anything on foot hit them, and tore through them like a hot knife.

[Michael W]

Let's see the math on blood knights:

20 Str 4 AP attacks: 10 hits.
10 Rerolls for hatred (only if warrior priest present, der): 5 additional hits, 15 total.
15 hits wound on a 4+: 8 wounds (rounded up)/5 without WP.
Armor save reduced to 4+: 4 wounds unsaved, 2 without WP.

Continuing on that - w/o WP.

So 2 dead, 3 BK still strike.
10 attacks, 6.7 hit, 5.6 kill.
And then 3 horses - so 6 more attacks - 3 hit, 2 kill.

So 7.6 (on an off day, 7 wounds to 2 in favor of the Knights).
Pikes:  2 + 3 (ranks) + 1 (outnumber) + 1 (banner) = 7
Knights:  7 + 1 (banner) = 8

Pikes still lose, statistically speaking.  A single Gaze of Nagash tears the pikemen's odds down further.  A Vanhel's Danse - granting the Knights rerolls on hits - helps even more.  So no, under the 12-pt/model rules, they still don't necessarily halt cavalry in its tracks (and the math on Knights of Khorne is, of course, even worse with that 1+ save).  Also, consider that Brets will NOT lose their lance formation; they, too, keep very good odds against Pikes.  A couple extra casualties for twice the VPs of a block of spearmen.  Awesome!

I also haven't seen any resolution on Pikes as State Troops.  If they are, then aren't all the advantages listed + detachments overpowered?  If they aren't, then what are they doing in the list at all?

[Toro_Blanco]

Uh, my pike rules would be grossly overpriced at 12 points a model.  I was going with 8-9 poins.

I also would allow pikes to take detachments, because as you pointed out, they're still not going to be a nasty, burly unit. They'll take the charge, inflict some decent casualties (more if a WP is present, as always), and the detachment will help things in their favor.

Continuing your previous example, the flank charge alone pushes the combat to a draw.  Assuming even one kill, pikes win the combat.

Pikes, like all empire troops, win by denying the enemy CR and working in tandem with their comrades.  I see no reason for it to change just because they have an especially long spear.

I also see no reason for them to be any more expensive than 8-9 points considering that, like all state troops, they RELY on detachments to win combats, because (as you demonstrated), without flank charges and the possibility of extra kills from detachments, winning combat is statistically unlikely (to put it mildly).

[commandant]

So 2 dead, 3 BK still strike.
10 attacks, 6.7 hit, 5.6 kill.
And then 3 horses - so 6 more attacks - 3 hit, 2 kill.

So 7.6 (on an off day, 7 wounds to 2 in favor of the Knights).
Pikes:  2 + 3 (ranks) + 1 (outnumber) + 1 (banner) = 7
Knights:  7 + 1 (banner) = 8

Just remember that the Chaos Knights loose any bonus that they get from charging.

[der Hurenwiebel]

re: the reluctance of cavlry to charge the front of a pike phalanx, do a ld test based on the ld of the mount if that is failed the mount will not charge no matter what the rider wants.  Cold one riders beware.  Skeletal and ethereal steeds will still have some memory of life so they also will be reluctant in their primitive animal awareness.

[Toro_Blanco]

re: the reluctance of cavlry to charge the front of a pike phalanx, do a ld test based on the ld of the mount if that is failed the mount will not charge no matter what the rider wants.  Cold one riders beware.  Skeletal and ethereal steeds will still have some memory of life so they also will be reluctant in their primitive animal awareness.

I think that's making it too complex, honestly.  We do need to sacrifice some realism for the sake of gameplay; not to mention one could argue that mounts of any nature that have been bred and trained for war are thoroughly driven to obey their owners rather than instinct.

[Michael W]

Just remember that the Chaos Knights loose any bonus that they get from charging.

The only bonus they get is striking first.  Their default attacks are S5.  Things like Khorne Knights and Blood Knights dish out 3 S5 and 2 S4 attacks per model.  If our pikes are supposed to stop them, imagine how much damage they'll do to, say, our own knights - with 1 S5 and 1 S3 attack each.

As for no threat to infantry - I can't see Chaos Marauders, Goblins of any type, Skaven, or numerous other T3 light infantry caring to assail Pikes.  20 S3 attacks that strike first no matter what tricks I've got up my sleeve?  My Druchii Assassin, who can cut the throat of a foe before he realizes a knife is out, can't slip between a couple of spears?  High Elves will send...maybe Phoenix Guard.  Swordmasters and White Lions wouldn't care to try, not with a detachment helping those pikes gain flank bonuses and deny ranks.  But PG will kill, what, a pikeman or two?  Not enough to overcome ranks, kills, and being flanked, that's for sure.  Skaven can...umm...shoot, run, and repeat?  Dwarves can send in Ironbreakers, but odds are good that even IBs won't shatter a pike block, and they will be flanked shortly.  In short, this "infantry will mow through them" idea seems to operate on the premise that all armies have access to Chaos Warriors with Shields.

They don't.

Under the current rules - which the modified ones are looking a lot like - pikes are by far best against infantry.  Their benefit against cavalry is the same as other infantry - ranks and numbers.  A couple of heavy infantry units can match them, but the vast majority of infantry on the field can't take pikes, and these are DoW pikes, without detachments - and they're 10 pts a model with the crappiest ASF in the game, no AP, and no Defended Obstacle.  Oh, and bonus strength only on the turn that they're charged. 

What we're discussing here is an uber-unit, capable of matching virtually any foe in combat and probably breaking them without help from a seperate unit, but practically guaranteed to win with the aid of a detachment or cavalry unit.  These things put Greatswords to shame.  We're going to be talking about a unit that costs right around 300 pts before detachments.  It's completely out of line from our other infantry choices.  The unit becomes the Empire equivalent to Wraiths - expensive but so effective you can't help but take them.