Topic: The Case for Giving Halberdiers a Ward

[PoorOldDorianGray]

What the title said [first post, tell me to shut up now  ]:

In the history of the Empire, in my estimation, victory is marked not by conquest or acquisition, but by survival. Unlike Chaos, which must destroy to triumph, the existence of the Empire is enough to satisfy its people. Like Bismarck's Germany, our beloved Empire is a satisfied state, there is nowhere it needs to expand.

Because of this, instruments of assault are out of character for halberdiers. Armor piercing is what I am mainly referring to, but improving WS, etc. are similar. Making them fight better will do two things: first of all, it will only marginally improve their prowess, secondly, it morphs them into something of an offensive unit.

In our ruleset, however, the way units of halberds theoretically win combat is more in line with the defensive nature of the Empire. They take the charge and win not by fighting but by having higher static combat resolution - how many soldiers the enemy can kill is immaterial because our troops are too strong in number and in will.

I feel that the best representation of this would be to reduce what the enemy is capable of killing, or nullifying the effects of casualties. A small ward save, 6+ or at most 5+ would help to represent the touch of Sigmar in the fighting of the Empire. The purpose is not to represent that an individual halberdier is difficult to kill, but rather to represent the somewhat inexhaustible supply of halberdiers - the mainstay troops of the Empire.

Heavy Armor, a suggestion I have read frequently as well, would attempt to increase the defensibility of an individual halberdier. Individual halberdiers, however, aren't great in defense - see the picture on the page before the index of the rulebook, one is getting his face busted. The strength of the Empire is numerical, and numbers are impersonal - like ward saves.

Rules wise, a slightly more effective offensive unit  would never be taken over a similarly priced unit of swordsmen with their better save, given the general proliferation of overpowering offense in Warhammer. A choice between a unit with a 5+ wardsave and a unit of swords with a 4+ combat armorsave, however, would be much more difficult. The 5+ save would be more versatile, but by no means impenetrable.

Pointswise, I would suggest that halberdiers with this organic ability should not be more expensive than swordsmen with WS4, I4, and a 4+ combat armor save.

It would not imbalance the game because they would still frankly suck, they just die a little slower.



 

Cheers if you read any of this

[cisse]

Hmm. I agree with thepart about the inexhaustible supply of halberdiers and their strength in numbers and strength of will. What I don't agree with, is that a ward save is that different from an armour save (well it works differently of course, but...). It still protects individual soldiers and makes them individually harder to kill, and you say you don't want such an effect.

I'd rather solve this with a special rule. Keep halberdiers as they are now, but add two rules:

Mainstay: Halberds are the mainstay troops of the Empire, and as such have all the ceremonial attire they may ever need.
Units of halberds that are larger than 20 soldiers may have a free standard and musician.

Explanation: this makes units of halberdiers a little cheaper, but still not too cheap, and it's quite fluffy I think. Champions still have to be paid for. We're no Bretonnians after all. 

Inexhaustible numbers: There are halberdiers all over the Empire, in numbers greater than one could ever imagine. As such, they don't overly when a few fall in combat - there are always more where they came from, and they're the first line of defence so they cannot fall back!
When in combat, the number of casualties inflicted upon any unit of halberdiers (also for detachments!) is halved for the purposes of determining combat resolution (rounding down). For example, in a combat where 5 halberdiers are killed and 2 swordsmen, the enemy would only get a +4 combat resolution for wounds.

Explanation: wel it's just as the original poster said, halberdiers should suffer less from wounds caused and rely on CR to win the day. Making them cause more wounds themselves is difficult, and making them harder to kill ust as awkward (since heavy armour is probably too expensive for state troops, especially the most numerous type, and a ward save is too elvish  ).

[PoorOldDorianGray]

But would you, cisse, ever take the 20pt cheaper unit?


I do like the second part though. I think that would be worth taking.


You are right though, difference between a ward and an armor save is just not there.

Thanks for the feedback (I like 7th just fine  )

[Inarticulate]

It was my understanding that The Empire does not have an inexhaustable supply of state troops.

They have much more than Dwarfs, Elves and even Bretonnians, but they are vastly outnumbered by Chaos, Orcs and Skaven.

[haterhater]

Yet Chaos, Orcs, and Skaven never defeat the Empire despite Chaos and Orcs being much more capable fighters. We have the numbers when we need them, which is why the Empire still exists..

My knowledge of fluff is a bit lacking though 

[Inarticulate]

Well, i expect the vast majority of Chaotic armies to be made up of marauder tribesmen, not the chaos space mar.. I mean Chaos warriors that are the most used.

Orcs and Goblins come in varying shapes and sizes, i'd expect there to be far more goblins and snotlings than orcs in a waaagh.


Mortars sort out both of these problems.

[cisse]

It was my understanding that The Empire does not have an inexhaustable supply of state troops.

They have much more than Dwarfs, Elves and even Bretonnians, but they are vastly outnumbered by Chaos, Orcs and Skaven.

Well perhaps you're right, but the general "feel" still remains: halberdiers have such faith in their abilities and there's still a lot of them, so a casualty won't scare them as much as other troops. It's just another try to make halberdiers worthwhile, of course, so yes it's not perfect.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Mainstay is a good rule, I am not sure about the other one, Cisse. Must think...

[Mr.Carloff]

Maybe a second attack will fix Halberdies.

[cisse]

Maybe a second attack will fix Halberdies.

Why, did they turn into chaos warriors?

If you must, let them attack in two ranks. But not two attacks.

[patsy02]

Attack in two ranks or the ability to use shield + halberd will make spearmen a useless turd of a unit. Ward save makes no sense. AP might not be good enough. Heavy armour and modification of stats is unfluffy.

The best solution is to turn the count any halberd user as having a defended obstacle, with a possible addition of AP.

[Bunkka-pop]

The best solution is to turn the count any halberd user as having a defended obstacle, with a possible addition of AP.

Mmh yeah my halberd wielding chaos warriors would like that improvement = D

[patsy02]

Alright, maybe just the Empire halberd. 

[Chr1s-Cross]

The best solution is to turn the count any halberd user as having a defended obstacle, with a possible addition of AP.

I think this would be pretty good actually - but should be a special rule for halberdiers only, as halberds are really common in the empire, they are the first weapon that soldiers in the empire learn to use, and this gives them various benefits when using them.

I think the 5+ ward save would be also good in combat, and would justify halberdiers, but I'm not sure how you would justify it - and I think it would seem a little unrealistic

[peraturabo]

why should halberds get a ward save,if even sigrmar priest doesn´t get one?

[Nicholas Bies]

 did he mention halberds with armour piercing?

Cause if he did he's a genius. That would make them incredibly useful.

[Chr1s-Cross]

did he mention halberds with armour piercing?

Cause if he did he's a genius. That would make them incredibly useful.

Anti-knight infantry! -2 armour save
sounds more like pikemen, but I think that would be a really good idea!

[iatroblast]

Almost a year ago, when I first started Warhammer, I thought halberd was an armour-piercing weapon (don't know why...), so I used to play them that way... I surprised when I find out later that this was not the case!

Halberds SHOULD be armour-piercing, because 'halberd' is a long stick with an axe on top! How can a long sword have +2 strength and a heavy weapon like this can't have +1S and AP at least?

[eSBeN84]

What about this?
Army pts val.          Free halberd unit size.
less than 2000        10*
2000 or more          15*
3000 or more          20*
4000 or more          25*
each +1000            +5more*

*all with full command unit.

And you can ofcourse pay to increase the unit size as normal.

[Mogsam]

Ward saves are a silly idea. It would make them far too good. Everyone else has to pay to get ward saves. Halberdiers aren't "that" useless.

Mogsam

[Fandir Nightshade]

That max combat resolution sounds nice in the first couple of seconds in my ear.

But easier would be to grant them stubborn.

It would make them softer Ld 7 greatswords and make them a great infantry choice, you finally would even be able to strike with those S 4 attacks against orcs, dwarves, lizards in the second round of combat.

Either that or no stubborn but that slaanesh banner rule, on any pair or a roll of a single 1 the halberdiers will count as insane courage.



Hmm stubborn halberdiers would be cool.

6 points stat line as is light armour Ld 7  stubborn. Why not? There is already so much stubborn or even unbreakable going on give them the staying power they need.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

How about allowing Empire halberdiers (due to their intensive training) to use a shield whilst using their halberd?

That puts them on par with spearmen in terms of survival. They still wouldn't be as good as swordsmen in terms of survival but they would be better than they are now.

[Chr1s-Cross]

how about instead of giving them a rule about shields, how about they have helmets which give them +1 armour save in combat and shooting? Maybe with this you could keep allowing them to have a shield as an option, at a cost of one extra point per model, which would allow them to have a 4+ armour save against shooting, and the option of using a hand weapon and shield in close combat.

I know that the halberdiers themselves might have to be re-modelled a bit, but I think by doing this, it might make sense without the need to completely change the rules about halberdiers. What do you guys think, different special rules, or different equipment?

[Fandir Nightshade]

I still go with my stubborn!

Why make them second rate swordsmen with S 4 instead of Ws 4 ....make them like they are pictured in the brb (the fight against the trolls) wave upon wave that crash and die against the enemy but don´t turn tail in the first seconds of combat like goblins.

[Inarticulate]

How about Stubborn if the army contains a GoTE?