Author Topic: Vostroyans(Pics!) (Read 11271 times)

Fafnir · « **Reply #25 on:** February 19, 2006, 01:30:10 PM »

That was part of my point, yes. But I still stand by my statement that the Adeptus Astartes are as much the genuine creation of Games Workshop as anything is anyones genuine creation. When creating a futuristic elite military force you have to borrow from the concept of elite military forces itself, but that doesn't mean the creation is simply a copy of something else. The names are "stolen", yes, but that's because the 40K world is a darkly futuristic version of our own.

When stripping away the superficial things like "elite military force" and "warrior monks" from the Space Marine identity you are still left with a very detailed, interesting and darkly gothic history of genetically engineered futuristic warriors not wholly human who defend something not really worth saving (the Imperium). The concept is quite unique to Games Workshop in that similar concepts in the fantasy/sci-fi genre are not easily identifiable, unlike elves, dwarves, orcs, lizardmen, monsterous aliens, elves-in-space, human empires, chivalric knights and killer robots. That in my opinion is why Games Workshop spends more time and energy on Space Marines than everything else related to 40K combined. The Space Marines are their baby and noone elses.

Frederick Ironstrom · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2006, 07:26:46 PM »

The sheer amount of spacemarine players is unreal.

Hardly surprising, interesting backround, imposing easy to customise models, regular updates....seems like a great team to be on.

On the other hand, is the life of a space marine player all that cushy? Yes! But thats the problem there arn't many people to fight anymore. With everyone assembling their chapters, black this and blood that, the number of foes is shrinking. Even in WD the same old weary blood pact chaps are given the task of standing in front of the tin men again and again. Where are the infinite legions of cultists and doomsday-devise-weilding-mega-aliens that they are supposed to meet in glorious combat?

In the local gw it's quite an event to see something different. However you can hardly give out to people for collecting an army they like: How dare you collect them.....

Pics look nice. Models look quite detailed. Nice jackets.....

jack · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2006, 08:17:15 PM »

I think Marines are a sort of default beginners army.They are a compact force[easy to collect ,assemble ,and paint],and their all-around good stats and weapon options mean that a new player can rely less on tactics and still be competitive.A basic marine is usually better than elites from most other armies.

Crimsonsphinx · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2006, 11:49:42 PM »

The problem with playing as marines is it allows new players to compete with experienced players of the few other armies that exist in the 40k system and have a chance at winning.

All of the other armies are far more specialised, and much harder to win with. Marines have special fall back rules, no real downsides, are easy to paint, easy to use, very forgiving, good armour, good weapons, good heroes, good vehicles. I could go on forever.

It remains worth mentioning my first army ever was blood angels and I still have the models. I like marines, dont get me wrong, I do, but I prefer to have a challenge. Every kid and his best mate at my local gaming club plays marines/chaos marines. The only non marine army I ever saw was my own eldar.

RGB · « **Reply #29 on:** February 20, 2006, 04:39:41 AM »

Nice models. I hope they are not all metal, cause if they are plastic I can afford some for reasons of long coats and creative decapitation.

(Building a Kislev force)

Hagen_von_Loewenstein · « **Reply #30 on:** February 20, 2006, 09:03:07 AM »

They're supposed to be all metal, sorry.

Donnachaidh · « **Reply #31 on:** February 20, 2006, 10:13:04 AM »

Quote from: Fafnir

This isn't really that strange; the Adeptus Astartes is the only purely Games Workshop creation in their gaming worlds. Everything else of importance draws inspiration (or more) from somewhere else, but the Space Marines are completely the creation of Games Workshop, and even if I don't play them I am the first to agree that theirs is a brilliant story.

You would like to think so wouldn't you?

40K is based on Laserburn/Imperial Commander which was written by GW chods for TTG in the days before they worked for GW/Citadel. (Priestly, Halliwell and Ansyl if I remember rightly) Citadel even did a range of miniatures for Laserburn (Skirmish system) while TTG did the 15mm miniatures for Imperial Commander (mass combat system)

Laserburn had carapace armour, power armour, dreadnought armour, mesh armour, Space Marines, bolters, conversion beam projectors, Redemptionists and a whole host of other bits and bobs found in the pages of 40K (No fantasy races though)

Agent Orange · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2006, 11:48:57 PM »

Thier also based on meideval Catholic knightly orders like the Templars and Hospitaliers. And tons of sci-fi has genetically altered super humans.

Fafnir · « **Reply #33 on:** February 24, 2006, 09:44:52 AM »

Quote from: Donnachaidh

You would like to think so wouldn't you?

40K is based on Laserburn/Imperial Commander which was written by GW chods for TTG in the days before they worked for GW/Citadel.

This doesn't change anything, since it is still the little baby of the grand old men (and thus the younger, less grand men) of Games Workshop. I still stand defiantly by my statement.

Donnachaidh · « **Reply #34 on:** February 24, 2006, 09:48:27 AM »

Absolutely - it's their lynch-pin and favourite child.

Just not so original as you might believe....

Fafnir · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2006, 09:49:01 PM »

Quote from: Donnachaidh

Just not so original as you might believe....

Without dragging this thread into a debate over what is my personal, subjective view of creative originality I'd like to say that the Space Marines are exactly as original as I believe, but that we probably have diverging views of what is original.

Gutsy · « **Reply #36 on:** February 25, 2006, 12:51:52 AM »

You have to concede they were influenced by a lot of things, though. For instance, since the Black Templars were brought up, they are obviously based off Teutonic Knights.

And, like Kernschatten said, there's similarities to "Lucas' Stormtoopers, Heinlein's Mobile Infantry or Steakley's Powered Armor Troops."

While of course there's a LOT of original content in there, it's not like the creators were born in the bush and created them with no contact with civilization.

Fafnir · « **Reply #37 on:** February 25, 2006, 06:51:21 AM »

Quote from: Gutsy

While of course there's a LOT of original content in there, it's not like the creators were born in the bush and created them with no contact with civilization.

Nothing is anymore. Everything is influenced by something else, and if the benchmark of originality is that it draws no influence from other sources then there is no such thing as "original".

Gutsy · « **Reply #38 on:** February 25, 2006, 08:05:57 AM »

You are correct there, I just mentioned it because you made this comment earlier back:

Quote

This isn't really that strange; the Adeptus Astartes is the only purely Games Workshop creation in their gaming worlds. Everything else of importance draws inspiration (or more) from somewhere else, but the Space Marines are completely the creation of Games Workshop, and even if I don't play them I am the first to agree that theirs is a brilliant story.

Fafnir · « **Reply #39 on:** February 25, 2006, 08:14:37 AM »

I know, I contradict myself sometimes.

Let's just say I operate with two different concepts of 'originality' and 'inspiration'. Space Marines are in my opinion the original creation of the early Games Workshop people because they only draw inspiration from the general source that is Western culture, while all the other (major) creations of Games Workshop draws direct inspiration from other fantasy/sci-fi genres. Have I made myself clear now? :tongue:

Crimsonsphinx · « **Reply #40 on:** February 25, 2006, 12:09:51 PM »

Tau are based on feudal japanese arnt they? Im only asking because they never existed when I played 40k so im not entirely familiar with them.

Otherwise I dont know where they are taken from. I just figured mecha's and such were taken from them.

Guvnor · « **Reply #41 on:** February 25, 2006, 02:53:07 PM »

I got them as a modern western army. High frepower and manoveurability, but best ot avoid combat. Troops are quite fragile but not too much so. The things like sniper teams really add to that modern feel, not futuristic IMO.

Fafnir · « **Reply #42 on:** February 25, 2006, 03:26:02 PM »

And the Tau's got TV...

General Helstrom · « **Reply #43 on:** February 25, 2006, 03:37:58 PM »

Quote from: Fafnir

And the Tau's got TV...

They also have PSP's:

He won't be getting any glare on his screen any time soon!

Konrad von Richtmark · « **Reply #44 on:** February 25, 2006, 10:02:50 PM »

Well, what can I say on the originality of the space marines? Well, medieval military orders are clearly an influence. As well as probably Ottoman janissaries - the conscription at relatively young age and total dedication to martial prowess and monastic piety turning the guys into fanatic unyielding crack troops.

Overall, while it is true that the space marines (and the 40K universe in general) has stolen influences from a variety of places, what's fluffwise brilliant is how they have combined it all into a rich, interesting whole. They've not just ripped off stuff, they've integrated it into the universe in a good way.

Gutsy · « **Reply #45 on:** February 25, 2006, 10:24:17 PM »

Quote from: Fafnir

I know, I contradict myself sometimes. Let's just say I operate with two different concepts of 'originality' and 'inspiration'. Space Marines are in my opinion the original creation of the early Games Workshop people because they only draw inspiration from the general source that is Western culture, while all the other (major) creations of Games Workshop draws direct inspiration from other fantasy/sci-fi genres. Have I made myself clear now? :tongue:

Hehe, you sure have. I agree with you on that, too.

Lord Etharion · « **Reply #46 on:** February 26, 2006, 01:07:34 AM »

Tau strike me as a mix of anime/japanese style influences (big mecha, etc), and communist propaganda (greater good, etc.)

I also understand that this was a to give the asian market, which was otherwise more into WHFB, a more accessable entry into 40k.

Guvnor · « **Reply #47 on:** February 26, 2006, 12:21:39 PM »

They do have that japanese cartoon look, but are a bit better at fighting. I had never though of them in the communist way, I thought more like the hindu caste system (even with the name).

But sadly marines are still very easy to play with, and win.

Konrad von Richtmark · « **Reply #48 on:** February 26, 2006, 01:24:27 PM »

Except that Hindu castes are ranked relative to each other, karma deciding how high a caste one gets born into. On the other hand, the Tau castes seem rather equal, except for the special status of the ethereals. I have always thought of the Tau as living in and expanding a socialist utopia... and stalinistically eliminating any opposition

RGB · « **Reply #49 on:** March 02, 2006, 07:19:10 PM »

I'd definitely say I agree.

They are an energetic, naive and single-minded civilisation. If that doesn't describe the communist mythos, I don't know what does.

In any case, it's only a matter of time before they hit "darkness" and all the corruption becoems visible. Somewhere next edition.

News:

Author Topic: Vostroyans(Pics!) (Read 11271 times)