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Tactical Exposition Game 5: Empire Tactical Thread
This thread is for the EMPIRE TEAM ONLY for TEG5.
--If you are in the High Elf team, or plan to join it, leave now.
--If you want to join the Empire Team, just post your intent in here.
--If you are visiting or plan to look at both team's threads to watch from the sidelines, then please refrain from posting comments in TEG5 till the battle is over.
Current Empire Team Members:
--Noght (General)
--George (General)
--Playonwords (Lt)
--Zif
--Grifter
--Sevensins
--Graydeath
--Mortim
--TCWarrom
--Dapper
--MrO
--Perforated
--LSP
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Team Empire-
First things first- we need to decide on a list.
The opponent is High Elves but whatever we come up with needs to be an all-comers list.
The easy route is to use list types we have tried before such as the Griffon or Sammay's All-Cav, but I am particularly interested in new build ideas/strategies. So post them!
One option is a list I recently tested-- an All-Cav list like Sammay's but I ran two Beast Mages. Wildform is insane on Demis, and the Captasus love Savage Horrors....!
I am going to be on vacation for two weeks- so we have a little bit of time to toss some ideas around. We will start the TEG on August 16th. Let's hear what you think!
:::cheers:::
HHG
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I'll join team empire if that`s all right. hope to have a bit more time on my hands to actually postsomething this time around. :)
i had a fun list a while ago with 4x10 archers with a witchhunter in them each. that could be fun against the pointy ears, no?
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I'd like something in the all-comers category, and preferably a varied list (not all this or that)
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How about a fun shooting list?
Level 4 (Life)
Arch Lector
Engineer x2
Captain, BSB
Level 2 (Fire), scroll
20 Crossbows
20 Crossbows
10 Archers
10 Archers
15 Archers
3 Cannons
10 Outriders
10 Outriders
5 Pistoliers + Musician
2 HBVG
We'd lose the combat phase, but as long as we deploy back and screen with the archers and pistoliers we might be able to do enough damage before they get to us.
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I agree that they should be shot up but that feels extreme! :icon_biggrin:
Can't we beat them with a standard All-Comer's list?
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I agree that they should be shot up but that feels extreme! :icon_biggrin:
I took out the mortars so I had room for the wizards.
Yes, we could use an all-comers and it would probably be a lot more fun.
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How about at least one of each unit (detachments count) and then fill in with characters, warmachines and magic altars to taste?
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We can try out whatever you want, but I want the TEGs (as opposed to some of the things we have tried in the TDGs) to stay at the competitive/tournament level.
Also realize that Fandir, Rothgar, and Sammay are all on that side.
Empire needs to bring its A-game to face off against them. 8-)
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Empire needs to bring its A-game to face off against them. 8-)
Agreed, make a list to handle a Dark Elf list. Replace Hydras with Frosthearts....
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Would like to join the team if there are spots available.
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Would like to join the team if there are spots available.
The more the merrier. I updated the original post to include everyone's name that has posted in here so far!
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This is all comers based.
Battle Wizard Lord: Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Life.
Captain of the Empire: Ogre Blade; Charmed Shield; Luckstone; Warhorse (barding); full plate armour; Battle Standard.
Battle Wizard: Dispel Scroll; Lore of Beasts.
12 Inner Circle Knights: Inner Circle Preceptor; musician; standard bearer; Standard of Discipline.
28 Halberdiers: musician; standard bearer.
• 5 Archers
• 5 Archers
4 Demigryph Knights: standard bearer.
4 Demigryph Knights: standard bearer.
4 Demigryph Knights: standard bearer.
Great Cannon
Steam Tank
Steam Tank
2,396 points
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Here´s a somewhat unusual list, in case people want to try something different from "STank, Demis, filler".
GotE, Full Plate, White Cloak, Enchanted Shield, Relic Sword, OTS, Imperial Griffon
Shadow Wizard lvl 4, Talisman of 4++, Dispel Scroll
Captasus 1, FP, Shield, Dragonhelm, Shrieking Blade, Pegasus
Captasus 2, FP, Charmed Shield, Sword of Might, Pegasus
2x Master Engineer
4x Witchhunter, Brace
4x 10 Archers
20 Swordsmen, Standard
26 Swordsmen, Standard
5 Archers (detachment)
3x Great Cannon
2x HBVG
The list offers no "big points" except for the GotE, but rather chaff without end to feed to any deathstars. Meanwhile, the cannons pick off monsters, the Witchhunters pick off characters, the GotE and Captasi go for chaff and artillery and the HBVG´s shoot up smaller units. For magic I picked Shadows for more stalling and debuffing.
Against the HE I expect to see Frosthearts if they´re going comeptitive; the GotE has a chance of finishing one off that´s been shot by a cannon. The Archers should overperform against the pointy-ears, while the WH´s will love to hunt for those juicy mages. HBVG´s love pointy-ears as well, oc.
We can be slightly more sane and go for 2x3 Demis instead of the GotE if you want, they work out to roughly the same points value.
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More of a standard, tournament list:
Arch Lector on War Altar, heavy armor, 4+ ward, charmed shield
Level 4
BSB with FPA, 5+ ward, enchanted shield
Level 2 with scroll
40 Halberds, full command
2x5 Archer detachments
10 Archers
2x5 Archer detachments
5 Knights, musician
2x3 Demigryphs, Musician
2x Cannons
5 Pistoliers
Steam Tank
Celestial Hurricanum
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I'll join the empire this time....though plan to take a back seat after leading the ogres in the last.
The key questions I see for our list is:
Halbs or knights for the main core unit?
Demis or greatswords for the main special unit?
1 or 2 Stanks?
I think by answering these we will know if we want an agressive or defensive list. From that our choices for chaff, characters and artillery are much easier.
Personally I lean to Halberd and Greatsword hordes with a single Stank. Something like....
Arch Lector on Foot
Wizard Lord L4
BSB on Foot
Battle Wizard L2
Engineer
Captasus
50 Halberds
5 Archers
5 Archers
10 Archers
6 Knights
40 Greatswords standard discipline
Cannon
Stank
Helblaster
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Against elves why not take either mortars of pigeoneers? 3 bombs per turn will devastate elven elite infantry or not? Just a (probably completely stupid) thought...
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They are probably going to bring a rock solid list with dual frosties, so we need two cannons at least, along with something else to reliably kill them. They can pretty much park one phoenix in each of our hordes and kill the rest of our army, while we try to bring it down.
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I have a couple of ideas to throw out to the Empire Team for consideration.
So far no one has come up with any new strategies/lists to test out. One of the purposes of this TEG is to see the new High Elves in action so it doesn’t bother me if we stick with something tried and true. To that end, the first list I have below is a slight modification to Rothgar’s Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder from TEG 1 Civil War. I dropped one STank and the WH to add in two Captasus.
Maybe I am demented, but I would find it rather entertaining to take out a Rothgar-based list against the man himself!
Arch Lector on WAlatr with Horn Gen (GW, Armour of Destiny, Van Horst)
10 Archers
Wizard Lord, Light Lvl4 (Dispel Scroll, Talismen of Pres)
Captasus (Dragonhelm, Luckstone, Potion of Fool)
Captasus (Ench Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Strength)
5 Demigrpyhs (FC)
2x 5 Vanilla Knights (Musician)
39 Halbediers (FC)
Captain BSB (Helm of the Skavenslayer, Dawnstone)
5 Archer det
5 Archer det
2x Great Cannon
Steam Tank
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My other list idea is based around Beast Magic. I have tried out various Beast-based lists before and found that 1 Lvl 4 Beast mage just doesn’t cut it. I recently played a couple of battles using a modified All-Cav Mobile list like Sammay’s with 2 Beast mages and it makes all the difference in the world. Opponents are so worried about stopping Savage Beasts that I consistently got off a couple of Wildforms. And Wildforms on Demis will destroy just about anything. I had one group of 3 Demis take out 2 units of Skullcrushers by themselves….
This list is based around Sammay’s Mobile Cav with lots of Demis and characters on Pegs. The Lvl4 Beast Mage is even on a Peg- to fly to the exact spot you need him for the short range spells. He only has a 4+ Ward save for defense- but the presence of 5 Demis in the list without a champ also gives the Peg fliers nice 4+ Look out Sir rolls.
Depending on the enemy, the Captasus can all fly separately- or form their own flying cav unit.
Battle Wizard Lord, Lvl 4 Beasts Gen Peg, Dispel Scroll, Talis of Pres
Battle Wizard Lvl 2 Beasts Steed, Scroll of Shielding
Captasus BSB (Lance, Dragonhelm, Dawnstonel)
Captasus (Ogre Blade, Ench Shield)
Captasus (Lance, Helm of the Skavenslayer, Dragonbane Gem, Ironcurse Icon)
5 Demigrpyhs (Musician, Std)
2x 3 Demis (Champ, Musician)
2x 6 Knights (Champs, Musician)
2x 6 Knights (FC)
Steam Tank
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Let me know what you think about either of these list ideas.
HHG
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Lord:
General of the Empire (Full plate, lance, white cloak, enchanted shield, blood roar Griffon)
Hero:
Assassin Captasus (full plate, shield, sword of swift slaying, potion of speed)
BSB Captasus (Full plate, shield, drangonhelm, lance, dawnstone)
Attack Captasus (full plate, shield, sword of strife, pot of foolhardiness
Battle Wizard (lvl 2, horse, dis scroll) (beast)
Core:
IC Knights x10 +FC
IC Knights X10 +FC
Crossbows X19 +music
Special:
Demi’s x5 +FC(banner of swiftness)
Cannon
Cannon
Rare:
Stank
Ok, bit off the wall list but I think could be quite mobile and have some deadliness to it.
Lord: Fast and mobile scary unit with hopes of either panicing a unit off or chomping on some of the tougher, low strength units, or maybe a wounded phoenix. Should avoid white lions unless charging into the flank
Heros: Assassin Cap- Find mage, kill mage
BSB cap provides support where needed
Attack Cap-kill small units or provide flank charge and decent amount of kills for combat res
Wizard- hopefully can start becoming a factor turn 3 (turn 2 if things go well)
Core: Knights can hopefully pick and choose where they charge or help demi's by getting into a flank
Crossbows-Eagle and reaver hunting plus can protect cannons
Special: Demi's- speed along into something and tear it apart
Cannons- Find frosty, kill frosty (or dragon if they go monster crazy which you can with high elves this book)
Rare: Stank- roadblock any major combat units so knights and demi's can flank
Just my thoughts.
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I like those two lists HHG and feel similarly about taking lists agains people that advocate them so much...
Wouldn't it be possible though to make at least slight modifications to see how they work out? Something like: change halbardies into spearmen with shields (elves are T3 anyway ; ), or taking out one of the captasi (2nd list) and change it into scouts? Maybe even skip the steamtank (for 3 pigeon guys yeah ; ). I am certainly not an expert so these suggestions probably weaken the lists to a big extend, but the suggestion would be to find slight modifications that don't weaken too much, but still show slightly different aspects of the empire...
Feel free to ignore if you don't agree though...
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I like those two lists HHG and feel similarly about taking lists agains people that advocate them so much...
Wouldn't it be possible though to make at least slight modifications to see how they work out?
Funny you mention this Dapper- both lists alread incorporate a few significant changes from what Rothgar and Sammay field.
Rothgar promotes dual cannons and dual STanks. I lessened the firepower by dropping a STank but increased mobility and deep strikes by adding two Captasus.
Sammay loves Heavens magic and fielding a bunch of mobile units, any of which he is willing to sacrifice. Beast magic brings with it a whole new set of strategy and tactics- and the inclusion of a Demi unit of 5 and a potential flying cav unit of 3 Captasus is different.
Feel free to offer up any tweaks you think would make the lists better, however!
I think I will label the list submissions we have and we will vote on them early next week so we are prepared for the TEG's launch.
We have another major hurdle to get over as well- appointing a General. We will see how our list shapes up and who is comfortable at giving it a go and willing to take the extra time.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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I'm sure I'm unable to improve upon your lists HHG. With tweaking I merely meant taking slightly different troops and this surely would not improve the lists, only change them. The think is that when there's core infantry in lists on the forum its always halberdiers. I understand they are best, but they are not that much better than the others right? Why not try spearmen? Instead of the mandatory 10 archers bunker, why not 14 spearmen?
These things are not important though! I like the first list you posted best...
I'm looking forward to the fight!
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Some random thoughts:
- I too would rather see Spearmen or even Swordsmen
- If you are High Elf Mage hunting, bring the OTS, on the Assassin
- Don't underestimate the value of Twin Volley-guns vs Medium T Monsters, Cavalry, and High Elf Elites
- Plan a stiff Magic defense, +1 to cast High Magic Spells are a bitch.
Let me think about it a bit...
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I agree spears or swords would be good to see....I lean towards swords, but only as all my spearmen models became halberdiers :)
Helblaster should definitely be in the list....its the best way to deal with units carrying banner of the world dragon!
Perhaps our list could run an Arch Lector, a Level 4 mage and 2 Level 2 beast mages. This would give us 4 channels and 2 gos at wildform as well as whatever magic lore we'd like on the L4.
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Maybe take HHG's first list and combine the 2 units of 5 knights into one (inner circle) - the captasi may do what the knights were supposed to do in the first place- and take the arch lector from the altar and into the knights? The points from the altar could translate into a HVG with engeneer.
Could even take the steamtank and have a second HVG with engeneer, and a lvl 1 beast?
This would lose the re-rolls for the the DG however...
Oh god... list making is awful... I can never choose :eusa_wall:
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I know we're nor supposed to tailor make list vs HE, but spears seem to be a really popr choice, due to the frosties -1S aura, hitting regular elves asl on a 4+/5+ instead of 4+/4+ seems very weak! Going spears should mean bringing a lvl 4 shadow for mindrazor at least.
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9x10 archers for core. lets show the pointy ears that mass > class! :)
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The High Elves have posted a list and have finished tweaking it...
We need to get some action over here!
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Actions we have aplenty...its final decisions we lack lol.
There are several nice lists posted already...lets just get to the voting and then we can make minor adjustments from there. What I remember from fighting High Elves is erase their magic and monsters asap and then pick and choose your fights.
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Ok, I have a list suggestion based on the suggestions so far. It is not calculated per se, as i wang to know what you think first:
Lords:
lvl 4 heavens with dispel scroll = 225
Heroes:
2 captasi = 300
Dawnstone bsb on bwh = 140
Luthor huss = 155 - general.
Characters = around 620
11 IC knights FC - standard of discipline - Luthor goes here = 320
45 halberdiers FC = 300
10 archers = 70
2*5 archers detachment = 70
Core = 760
Special:
6 demis FC and steel standard = 413
10 outriders = 210
2 great cannons = 240
Specials = 863
Rare:
Steam Tank = 250
Gives around 40 points to play around with. We can swap the steam tank for a helblaster engineer and some chaff if we want.
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Hi,
How about going with a "meat-grinder" style army list?
either two huge blocks with 80 halberdiers each or one with 80 with double 40 detachments. The idea is if course to engage his units and grind it down by sheer weight of number.
Don't have my book readily available right now but the following could serve as a template?
Arch Lector
BSB
Wizard Lord
80 halbs + 2x40 halb dets.
2x10 Archers
2x5 knights
Cannon
Hurricanum
Luminark
Steam Tank
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Going back to essentials, I think we mostly agree on the following:
Arch Lector
Level 4
BSB
Block of infantry
Archers for diverting
2 cannons
Steam Tank
Questions we need to address:
- How to spend our points in Rare? HBVG? Another tank? Buff wagon(s)?
- Do we need a second, Level 2 wizard?
- What type of infantry?
- Knights? Demigryphs?
After that I don't think it matters too much what we do with our leftover points.
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Actions we have aplenty...its final decisions we lack lol.
There are several nice lists posted already...lets just get to the voting and then we can make minor adjustments from there.
I agree- lets just start voting now and then that will give us a few days for final tweaks.
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ALPHA LIST- Balanced
Battle Wizard Lord: Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Life.
Captain of the Empire: Ogre Blade; Charmed Shield; Luckstone; Warhorse (barding); full plate armour; Battle Standard.
Battle Wizard: Dispel Scroll; Lore of Beasts.
12 Inner Circle Knights: Inner Circle Preceptor; musician; standard bearer; Standard of Discipline.
28 Halberdiers: musician; standard bearer.
• 5 Archers
• 5 Archers
4 Demigryph Knights: standard bearer.
4 Demigryph Knights: standard bearer.
4 Demigryph Knights: standard bearer.
Great Cannon
Steam Tank
Steam Tank
2,396 points- we would need to add more points
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BRAVO LIST- Heavy Arty
GotE, Full Plate, White Cloak, Enchanted Shield, Relic Sword, OTS, Imperial Griffon
Shadow Wizard lvl 4, Talisman of 4++, Dispel Scroll
Captasus 1, FP, Shield, Dragonhelm, Shrieking Blade, Pegasus
Captasus 2, FP, Charmed Shield, Sword of Might, Pegasus
2x Master Engineer
4x Witchhunter, Brace
4x 10 Archers
20 Swordsmen, Standard
26 Swordsmen, Standard
5 Archers (detachment)
3x Great Cannon
2x HBVG
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CHARLIE LIST- Balanced
Arch Lector on War Altar, heavy armor, 4+ ward, charmed shield
Level 4
BSB with FPA, 5+ ward, enchanted shield
Level 2 with scroll
40 Halberds, full command
2x5 Archer detachments
10 Archers
2x5 Archer detachments
5 Knights, musician
2x3 Demigryphs, Musician
2x Cannons
5 Pistoliers
Steam Tank
Celestial Hurricanum
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DELTA LIST- Balanced
Arch Lector on Foot
Wizard Lord L4
BSB on Foot
Battle Wizard L2
Engineer
Captasus
50 Halberds
5 Archers
5 Archers
10 Archers
6 Knights
40 Greatswords standard discipline
Cannon
Stank
Helblaster
Need some flushing out, but the basics are there.
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ECHO LIST- Balanced
Arch Lector on WAlatr with Horn Gen (GW, Armour of Destiny, Van Horst)
10 Archers
Wizard Lord, Light Lvl4 (Dispel Scroll, Talismen of Pres)
Captasus (Dragonhelm, Luckstone, Potion of Fool)
Captasus (Ench Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Potion of Strength)
5 Demigrpyhs (FC)
2x 5 Vanilla Knights (Musician)
39 Halbediers (FC)
Captain BSB (Helm of the Skavenslayer, Dawnstone)
5 Archer det
5 Archer det
2x Great Cannon
Steam Tank
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FOXTROT LIST- Flying, Cavalry Heavy
Battle Wizard Lord, Lvl 4 Beasts Gen Peg, Dispel Scroll, Talis of Pres
Battle Wizard Lvl 2 Beasts Steed, Scroll of Shielding
Captasus BSB (Lance, Dragonhelm, Dawnstonel)
Captasus (Ogre Blade, Ench Shield)
Captasus (Lance, Helm of the Skavenslayer, Dragonbane Gem, Ironcurse Icon)
5 Demigrpyhs (Musician, Std)
2x 3 Demis (Champ, Musician)
2x 6 Knights (Champs, Musician)
2x 6 Knights (FC)
Steam Tank
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GOLF LIST- Cavalry Heavy
General of the Empire (Full plate, lance, white cloak, enchanted shield, blood roar Griffon)
Assassin Captasus (full plate, shield, sword of swift slaying, potion of speed)
BSB Captasus (Full plate, shield, drangonhelm, lance, dawnstone)
Attack Captasus (full plate, shield, sword of strife, pot of foolhardiness
Battle Wizard (lvl 2, horse, dis scroll) (beast)
IC Knights x10 +FC
IC Knights X10 +FC
Crossbows X19 +music
Demi’s x5 +FC(banner of swiftness)
Cannon
Cannon
Stank
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HOTEL List- Balanced
Luthor huss general
lvl 4 heavens with dispel scroll = 225
2 captasi = 300
Dawnstone bsb
11 IC knights FC - standard of discipline - Luthor goes here
45 halberdiers FC
10 archers
2*5 archers detachment
6 demis FC and steel standard
10 outriders
2 great cannons
Steam Tank
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INDIA LIST: Infantry Heavy
Arch Lector
BSB
Wizard Lord
80 halbs + 2x40 halb dets.
2x10 Archers
2x5 knights
Cannon
Hurricanum
Luminark
Steam Tank
Would need some tweaking
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JULIET List: Heavy Shooting
Level 4 (Life)
Arch Lector
Engineer x2
Captain, BSB
Level 2 (Fire), scroll
20 Crossbows
20 Crossbows
10 Archers
10 Archers
15 Archers
3 Cannons
10 Outriders
10 Outriders
5 Pistoliers + Musician
2 HBVG
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Here is how I want you to vote:
Pick your top three and list them 1,2,3 in priority order of what you like.
When I count up the votes, a #1 pick will get 3 points, a #2 pick 2 points, and #3 picks 1 point. It should give us a nice spread.
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My vote for what I want to see:
1. FOXTROT
2. ECHO
3. ALPHA
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1. CHARLIE
2. DELTA
3. JULIET
Just to make sure, 2500 points, right?
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1. BRAVO
2. FOXTROT
3. INDIA
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1. INDIA
2. FOXTROT
3. DELTA
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1. Golf
2. Bravo
3. Hotel
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Just to make sure, 2500 points, right?
Yep, we will tweak the final list to 2500
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1. Foxtrot
2. Charlie
3. Juliet
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Alpha
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1.JULIET
2.JULIETT
3.ROMEO
:icon_biggrin:
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1: juliet
2: hotel
3: charlie
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1. Delta (Well its the one I wrote :))
2. Charlie
3. Echo
Basically I'd like to see a well rounded list so we can see how the different elements work against the elves.
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1. Alpha
2. Golf
3. Charlie
Foxtrot is nice but with the possibility of double Frosties I think more cannon/shots are better.
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1) Bravo
2) Echo
3) Foxtrot
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Well, it looks like Foxtrot has it by a point.
Any one feel confident in being the General for it?
Noght and George are possibles. Since it is my modification to Sammay's list I could do it as well- but it is easier if I stay impartial as a moderator.
Any tweak recommendations?
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I´d remove the BSB from one of the Pegs, Ironcurse Icon from the other; remove the Standard from one of the Knights units.
Use the points saved to buy a Gleaming Pennant for the big Demi´s and a VH Speculum for one of the Captains or a Wizard.
Otherwise, the list looks cool to me. :eusa_clap:
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George has just invited me to join the Empire team, if thats ok with all you guys. I have some experience with all cav empire armies, though that Foxtrot list isnt at all what id pick - looks like itd be really fun to play however.
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Well, it looks like Foxtrot has it by a point.
Any one feel confident in being the General for it?
Noght and George are possibles. Since it is my modification to Sammay's list I could do it as well- but it is easier if I stay impartial as a moderator.
Any tweak recommendations?
I'd rather "dual" General it. If someone wants to Partner that'd be great. I will be out of town near the end of the Month for Business so someone has to partner up.
Input from team preferred and welcomed as always.
Let me know.
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Happy to help if you want Noght.
I had offered to step up if no one else was interested....but as I ran the Ogres in the the last TEG I was going to let someone else have a go.
I have talked a mate (Playonwords) into joining the thread to help out as he runs cav armies and I haven't really run an empire army in ages.... I'm also an infantry not cav player :)
How about you take control for now and just let us know when you want us to jump in and take over the decision making.
I'm sure all in the thread will have plenty of ideas as well so you won't be short on support.
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George has just invited me to join the Empire team, if thats ok with all you guys. I have some experience with all cav empire armies, though that Foxtrot list isnt at all what id pick - looks like itd be really fun to play however.
George's word is good enough for me!
We will do a dual General of Noght and George.
Playonwords, you can be a Lieutenant along with anyone else Noght or George wants. Of course- all team member input is encouraged and needed!
Don't let the list scare you away- it is going to take some strategy to pull off- but I have given the list a try a couple of times, once against a dual Frostheart HE list, and it has never let me down yet. You have to get creative, but that is what TEGs are all about.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Im happy with that. Now im keen to get started. I can see im going to waste a lot of time following this - but in a good way of course.
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To get this thing up and running I think we play with HHGs list as is so we don't get too bogged down with tweaking.
That said I have no objections to any changes people can agree on quickly.
Having been involved in the last TEG I know it flows better if decisions made quickly and as such some get made before everyone can provide input. My advice for all people who want to have input is to try and think ahead.
Basically try to discuss what you think the elves are going to do in their turn and how you would react. Also planning out our entire turn with what ifs based on how the dice may fall. This way when they here is a decision to be made we have already discussed our options and everyone gets to have input.
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George has just invited me to join the Empire team, if thats ok with all you guys. I have some experience with all cav empire armies, though that Foxtrot list isnt at all what id pick - looks like itd be really fun to play however.
George's word is good enough for me!
We will do a dual General of Noght and George.
Playonwords, you can be a Lieutenant along with anyone else Noght or George wants. Of course- all team member input is encouraged and needed!
Don't let the list scare you away- it is going to take some strategy to pull off- but I have given the list a try a couple of times, once against a dual Frostheart HE list, and it has never let me down yet. You have to get creative, but that is what TEGs are all about.
:::cheers:::
HHG
Works for me.
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Agree with George. I'm happy to see you and Noght at the helm; if I can help a bit steering us clear of trouble, I will provide input. Let's keep the list as is.
Welcome, playonwords! Good to have you on board, too!
Foxtrot will be a real challenge to play if they actually show up with double FP's, and I fear the chance is high. All I see capable of killing one is a lonely cannon. A Captasus has a slim chance if he's buffed with +3 T and more attacks but that's hard to get through. That leaves a massive combo charge for static res and max attacks...not that we can bring all that much combat res to bear...but perhaps we just get lucky.
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I took down one Frostie with a Stank round and charge and took down the other with a unit of 3 Captasus with a Wildform on the charge.
My opponent was worried about Savage Beasts, so I got one of my Wildforms off....
After you see their list, I will post some of what I have done with the list- then it is all up to you!
I will post the scenario, terrain and lists tomorrow- and then we will start deployment!
HHG
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Yeah, there are a few possibilities (just not a unit of Captasi, that's not allowed). I'm just worried he'll kill one first and 6 S7 attacks will only cause a wound if his ward isn't boosted. Nevermind, I'm probably worrying too much. :-)
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I'd like to get the BSB off a Peg and into a unit of Knights to support the DGs and other Knights. Do we need the 2nd Battle Wizard? Minor tweaks might be nice.
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You're the CiC, do as you please. I would keep the changes to a minimum though. Remember, the second wizard gives a second Wyldform - very very useful in this list.
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What prevents the Capts from forming their own unit? Characters can form their own units in 8th.
Also, the BSB can join a Demi unit- we don't have to take him off the Peg.
Plus, as long as our big Demi unit has 5 in it, all the Peg riders will get look out sir rolls near it.
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BRB p. 97:
Unless otherwise stated, a character cannot join a unit of monsters (too much danger of being stood on), a unit of flyers (too many ill-disciplined wings buffeting the sky), a unit of chariots (too much danger of being run over), a unit of swarms (too much chance of being eaten) or a war machine (too much danger of being obliterated).
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Hmm. I guess I am used to Lizzies and their Skink Chiefs- but I see that you are right.
This does take away one of our options against the Frosthearts.
We could always add another STank- I originally was trying to avoid the easy option.
I did some quick tweaks on army builder- we can add STank by dropping the 5 Demi's to 4, dropping one Captasus, and switching the Lvl 4 Mage to a horse for better protection.
This will give us two cannon and the Str 10 beast nuke, if we roll it.
If interested, I will post the complete list once I am done traveling today. Please post your opinion- keep the original or add the STank?
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You're the CiC, do as you please. I would keep the changes to a minimum though. Remember, the second wizard gives a second Wyldform - very very useful in this list.
Minor tweaks is all. You are right on that, I'll chat with George.
Please post your opinion- keep the original or add the STank?
Essentially unchanged.
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BRB p. 97:
Unless otherwise stated, a character cannot join a unit of monsters (too much danger of being stood on), a unit of flyers (too many ill-disciplined wings buffeting the sky), a unit of chariots (too much danger of being run over), a unit of swarms (too much chance of being eaten) or a war machine (too much danger of being obliterated).
The Captasus wouldn´t be joining a unit of flyers though. They´d be forming a unit of characters mounted on flyers. Completely different thing. Captasi-unit is definitly a possibility.
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BRB p. 97:
Unless otherwise stated, a character cannot join a unit of monsters (too much danger of being stood on), a unit of flyers (too many ill-disciplined wings buffeting the sky), a unit of chariots (too much danger of being run over), a unit of swarms (too much chance of being eaten) or a war machine (too much danger of being obliterated).
The Captasus wouldn´t be joining a unit of flyers though. They´d be forming a unit of characters mounted on flyers. Completely different thing. Captasi-unit is definitly a possibility.
Nope. Can't join flyers. I wouldn't do that anyway.
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A unit of flyers is short for a unit that has the Fly special rule. A Captasus is both a character and a unit that has the Fly special rule. It therefore cannot join another unit with the Fly special rule - in this case, another Captasus.
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Personally i didn't think that the captasus could make a unit either.
I am tempted to keep the BSB on the Peg....I have been meaning to test this out at some point as I love having a Captasus in the army, but I am often struggling on points to fit him in and this would be one way to make it work. I feel we get the benefit of having him where we need at teh right time....or if we choose to charge him into somethign he carries the extra combat res. ...assuming you get a flank charge off he already has 3 static res and with his AS will not take too many hits back. This means he could often break even tougher opponents. That may even be enough to chase off a frosty if we get lucky!
I would also keep the L2 on beasts. This ensures we also get Amber spear which is our 2nd Cannon and double wildform is a huge threat. Even flock will seriously hurt any small elite units of elves.
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+ 3 CR? I must be missing something - I count only two (Flank Attack and BSB).
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+ 3 CR? I must be missing something - I count only two (Flank Attack and BSB).
Charge.
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Ah yes, I was assuming that his Flank Attack would be in support of another charge. I myself would certainly refrain from having my BSB charge alone into CC - he is much too valuable for that.
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Nothing is too valueable :)
If the BSB is the right tool in the right place then that's what I'd use....the key is making his sacrifice worth it.
Also having played against Sammy's list which this one is based on he was happy to run it without the BSB. The idea is nothing is too valuable to lose and as the army was often spreadout the BSB wouldn't be where he wanted it.
I think the BSB is important and being on the peg lets us get to the right places. In this list we have slightly more valuable units where his reroll will be handy....but I think we can do fine without him if we decide to use him aggressively.
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Seems like everyone is happy with the list as is.
At the very least, take off the Ironcurse Icon from the one Captasus since they can't run together...I recommend putting the Gleaming Pennant on the big Demi group since they have a Standard.
Easy day.
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Whether or not to add a second stank and make the changes talked about, i wanted to ask: Do these games allow things like railroading? (as well as a whole host of other questionable tactics like skirmisher contraction, double-flee, conga-line into buildings etc?). Im not too fussed either way, as long as both sides are agreed.
The only reason i mention is that a stank can easily be railroaded to have virtually no influence on the game. High elves have access to eagles and cheap reavers which can do this VERY well. Having 1 stank neutralised might be salvagable - having 2 would not be.
An alternative to this would be to get another ordinary cannon. Its a cheaper solution (allowing us to keep most of our other options) and still works very well in an otherwise all-cavalry army.
Ive never tried a BSB on peg before, but as George said in theory it works well. Id give it a go.
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Without bogging this thread down in discussion on what questionable tactics are acceptable, as everyone's views are different. I only make plays I would be happy to use in a tourney setting myself and won't complain if something I'd chose not to do is used against me.
For what its worth I believe the double flee is a legitimate tactic.
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Seems like everyone is happy with the list as is.
At the very least, take off the Ironcurse Icon from the one Captasus since they can't run together...I recommend putting the Gleaming Pennant on the big Demi group since they have a Standard.
Easy day.
Concur.
Whether or not to add a second stank and make the changes talked about, i wanted to ask: Do these games allow things like railroading? (as well as a whole host of other questionable tactics like skirmisher contraction, double-flee, conga-line into buildings etc?). Im not too fussed either way, as long as both sides are agreed.
Double flee is fine. We've got nothing to Conga, though I wouldn't even if we did. No idea what "railroading" is, assuming its pivot blocking which is valid. We protect the STank.
Although I have no idea how this list handles High Elf Elites (if he brings them).
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Yes railroading is pivot blocking.
I've used it, but try to avoid it if possible...
I'm interested to see what the HEs bring....there's so many possibilities its a little hard to plan until we see it.
If there is elites they will likely go MSU as it appears to be flavour of the month. For that I think we need to be looking to hit flanks with the demis or knights which could lead us to a game where both sides spend half the game dancing around avoiding combat.
I think we have quite a tactical game coming.
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One quick thing i noticed after again looking at the foxtrot list. We have 2 peg captains with 2++ vs flaming, which i dont think we need. Its true they may take multiple flaming units (particularly if they suspect we are going cav heavy and therefore force us to take heaps of fear tests), but id advise the peg captains to be kitted out as follows:
Captasus BSB (Full plate armour, Lance, Charmed shield, Dawnstone). 2+ save rerollable. Protects from a single big bolt from bolthrowers
Captasus (Full plate armour, Ogre Blade, Ench Shield). 1+ save
Captasus (Full plate armour, Sword of Swift slaying, The other trickster's shard, Dragonhelm, shield). 1+ save. Good mage hunter.
Just a thought.
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Although I have no idea how this list handles High Elf Elites (if he brings them).
Avoid them unless a multi-charge is available.
Noght- if you really don't like this list, don't run it. You never got a chance to vote- Bravo, Charlie, and Juliet would win if you voted for them and feel more comfortable that way (Alpha would tie).
Like George said, I think Foxtrot is going to give us a great tactical show...but the fallback of infantry and arty is there to run if you want it.
We aren't in a rush. I want the Generals happy and comfortable.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Although I have no idea how this list handles High Elf Elites (if he brings them).
Avoid them unless a multi-charge is available.
Noght- if you really don't like this list, don't run it. You never got a chance to vote- Bravo, Charlie, and Juliet would win if you voted for them and feel more comfortable that way (Alpha would tie).
Like George said, I think Foxtrot is going to give us a great tactical show...but the fallback of infantry and arty is there to run if you want it.
We aren't in a rush. I want the Generals happy and comfortable.
:::cheers:::
HHG
No worries, George and I can make it work.
I'm cool with the addition of a Charmed Shield (BSB) and a Gleaming Pendant (big DGs).
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No worries, George and I can make it work.
I'm cool with the addition of a Charmed Shield (BSB) and a Gleaming Pendant (big DGs).
Seconded....I always put the charmed shield on my first peg capt in my all comers list.
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Man, this forum exploded quickly...the things I miss while at work and coaches meetings. I like the few changes made for the pegs. I dont know if the HE list is posted yet...(guessing not since we are still making changes), but a few times I have played them post new book, I faced a heavy Elite infanty army (lost of archers, Phoenix guard, white lions) and Monster flying circus of O.O (Mage on Moon dragon, Fire Mage on dragon, Prince of Griffin, Dbl Frosties, with archers and bolt throwers). Either one is scary, but beatable. And I cast a small vote for only one Stank...just because I would like to see if we can tactical/luck out, a victory.
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I'm cool with the addition of a Charmed Shield (BSB) and a Gleaming Pendant (big DGs).
I added the Gleaming Pennant to the Demis.
Adding the Charmed Shield on the BSB frees up some points when the Skavenhelm is no longer needed for third 1+.
How do these kits look?
BSB Captasus- Lance, Charmed Shield, Dawnstone
Ogre Captasus- Ogre Blade, Ench Shield, Luckstone
Beastie Captasus- Lance, Dragonhelm, Plucker Pendant, Potion of Fool
Another option- roll up 20 points from the Gleaming and Plucker Pennants, Luckstone and Potion of Fool to get a Potion of Strength on the last Capt.
I think once you finalize the Capt kits we are ready to rock.
HHG
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We could sneak The Other Tricksters Shard onto the last Captasus to get those Frosties rerolling wards....losing Plucker Pennants, Luckstone and Potion of Foolhardiness.
This could also help if we try any mage assassinations.
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We could sneak The Other Tricksters Shard onto the last Captasus to get those Frosties rerolling wards....losing Plucker Pennants, Luckstone and Potion of Foolhardiness.
This could also help if we try any mage assassinations.
what toughness does a frostie have?
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T6 and you're ASL, -1 to wound.
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T6 and you're ASL, -1 to wound.
This and a 5++ Ward.
How do these kits look?
BSB Captasus- Lance, Charmed Shield, Dawnstone
Ogre Captasus- Ogre Blade, Ench Shield, Luckstone
Beastie Captasus- Lance, Dragonhelm, Plucker Pendant, Potion of Fool
This or George's suggestion with the OTS. His call.
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Tactical Exposition Game 5: Empire versus High Elves 2500
Time to get this rumble started.
I think it was good I was on vacation for a bit- it took the entire time for both sides to discuss lists options and tweak them to their final state.
The Teams
Empire High Elves
Noght (General) Fandir (General)
George (General) Rothgar (Lt)
Playonwords (Lt) Sammay (Lt)
Zif Cisse
Grifter MathiA
Sevensins Baluc
Graydeath Forumite
Mortim Toledo
TCWarrom
Dapper
MrO
Perforated
LSP
Wojownik
I added you to a team if you posted in a tactical thread. If I missed anyone, it wasn’t intentional.
The Lists
This is going to be an interesting battle as you will soon see when you compare the lists. The HE list is hard as nails….the Empire list packs a punch of its own but is going to require some skill to pull off- it is an all Cav list like Sammay’s in the last TEG but with some twists.
Empire: Beast Masters 2500
Battle Wizard Lord Gen (Lvl 4 Beasts, Dispel Scroll, Talis of Pres, Pegasus)
Battle Wizard (Lvl 2 Beasts, Scroll of Shielding, Steed)
Captasus BSB (Lance, FPA, Charmed Shield, Dawnstone)
Captasus (Ogre Blade, FPA, Ench Shield)
Captasus (Lance, FPA, Shield, Dragonhelm, OTS)
6 Knights (Champ, Musician)
6 Knights (Champ, Musician)
6 Knights (FC)
6 Knights (FC)
5 Demigryphs (Musician, Std with Gleaming Pennant)
3 Demigryphs (Champ, Musician)
3 Demigryphs (Champ, Musician)
Steam Tank
High Elves: White Lions 2500
Archmage Gen (Lvl4 Shadow, Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown of Atrazar)
Mage (Lvl1 Beasts, Dispel Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury)
12 Archers (Musician)
5 Ellyrian Reavers
5 Ellyrian Reavers
14 Silver Helms (FC)
Noble BSB (Star Lance, Ench Shd, HA, Potion of Fool, Barded Steed)
24 White Lions (Musician, Standard)
24 White Lions (Musician, Standard)
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix
The Scenario & Terrain
I think I will call this scenario: Dawn of the Twin Towers
The rolling plain has patches of trees (Mysterious Forests) scattered in little groves. At this spot where the battle takes place, there are twin towers placed there years ago (west one two stories high, middle one three stories high). The tall one in the middle sits near a lake (Mysterious Water). The last piece of terrain is a normal fence off to the east.
I rolled a 2 for Scenario: Dawn Attack. Once we have generated spells, I will roll to see which side deploys first.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG5TwinTowers_zps6cc5846a.jpg)
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Choices to Start:
Here are the magic rolls:
Empire Lvl4 Beasts- 2,5,6,6
Empire Lvl2 Beasts- 1,3
High Elf Lvl4 Shadow- 3,5,5,6
High Elf Lvl1 Beasts- 4
Pick your spells and then we start. Good luck!
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Well probably should go 0, 2, 4, 5 for the level 4 (how are we playing Open Ground + Curse?) and 0, 3 for level 2.
Thoughts? I'm taking the Wife and Daughter to a concert latter so I'll let George confirm.
P.S. I would have loved Kadon for the enormous fun factor but not with Peg. :icon_smile:
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Well probably should go 0, 2, 4, 5 for the level 4 (how are we playing Open Ground + Curse?) and 0, 3 for level 2.
Thoughts? I'm taking the Wife and Daughter to a concert latter so I'll let George confirm.
P.S. I would have loved Kadon for the enormous fun factor but not with Peg. :icon_smile:
Like we played it in previous TEG/TDGs, Open Terrain is a type of terrain... if a unit moves with Curse on it, they test.
I know I gave you the rolls for both wizards up front, but the Lvl4 rolled first. I think the Str 10 nuke is really important to have on the Lvl4 mage and it is a must have spell- so I think it is fair for you to go 0, 2, 3, 5.
When the Lvl2 picks spells on a 1 and 3, you can get 0 plus whatever else you want.
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Since I offered up this list, I am going to give a few pointers on how I have played it against HE and then back off and let you guys run with it.
Comparing the two lists makes it look like Empire doesn’t stand a chance. That is only if you try and tackle the pointy-ears head on.
Empire has the advantage in stealing points away. They have little nuking ability with Shadow and Beasts. If Empire is patient, you can take away the Archers, Reavers and Bolt Throwers.
The Silver Helms are a liability for them. They have to get the charge to be effective and with our mobility and numbers that is unlikely to happen. Our 1+ AS will last all day against their Str 3 and Str 4 on the BSB. With the BSB in there, you can take away over 500 points by swarming that unit!
The White Lions have to be avoided till the end game- where if things go right a combo charge can polish one of them off. You will likely have multiple dual flees to keep them moving slow.
The dual Frosties is no surprise. Hopefully you get lucky with a cannon shot- but you are going to have to throw some dice at the Str 10 nuke early on. A Captasus with Savages Beasts could do some damage, so could the Stank with Wildform.
The HE are going to be aggressive because on paper they look they have this in the bag. If you can be tactically patient, hopefully they get sloppy and push. With the tactical minds on their team that is unlikely, but everyone makes mistakes.
I am going to have to be neutral from here on out- but I am rooting for your mobile cavalry! I know it is in good hands.
8-)
HHG
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I think you should take 0, 6 on the Level 2. A Mountain Chimera could be a lot of fun.
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Is it too late to sign up for the Empire team?
I haven't been involved in a TEG for a couple of months now but I want to get back into them now I've settled in my new job.
They can be quite hard to keep track of with constant updates but I figured as the game is in its infancy I might have a chance to stick with it.
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For the level 4 I think Wildform, Impenetrable Pelt, Amber Spear and Savage Beast . The spear is our 2nd Cannon and we may need the level 4s extra boot to cast this.
For the Level 2 I'm thinking Wildform and something....
Flock of Doom might have some merit for taking out the archers, which looks looks like a mage bunker. This may let us get those mages in the open for assassination rund by the Captasus.
Curse may help us slow up their silver helms if they worry about losing guys....it has the benefit of also being a handy combat buff
Transformation could be fun...but the mage is mounted so won't work.
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Kadon would be fun, but we´d basically throw a whole magic phase at it to ever cast it; not a good choice with all the other important spells we have.
I´d go for Wyssan´s and Flock of Doom on the lvl 2; cheap to cast (we can easily 1-dice it) and could actually do some damage against Reavers. It´ll either draw precious DD, or give us some free points.
Lvl 4 as HHG suggested.
Also, I don´t how many of you have the new HE book (I don´t); could someone give us a short run-through of what their magic items do?
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Someone may need to confirm this, but off the top of my head....
Book of Hoeth: Reroll 1 dice in every attempt to cast or dispel. Basically this lets them throw less dice at spells and importantly takes away a fair bit of the risk of 1 dicing spells.
Star Lance: I think its just +3S on charge
Golden Crown: I think 2+Ward against 1st wound
Ring of Khaines Fury: is a Ruby Ring that does 2D6 S4.
Though Dawn Attack will throw out all our deployment plans we should start thinking how we would deploy this army if we go first.
We have the mobility to redploy if need be, so it might be worth trying to give the white lions a juicy target, but deploy such that we can get away from them easily. I am thinking if we take the bottom half we could put something left of the tower but then spend the first turn or so turning and heading right.
The other thought is to just deploy as much as we can centrally and spend our first turn redploying based on the HE deployment. Our list should have the mobility to do this. We would likely want the top half of the board so the tower doesn't get in the way, while making it harder for the HE to react to our redployment.
As HHG has designed this list I am tempted to setup a Demigryphon formation in his honour....5 Demis in the middle flanked by the 3 Demis with 2 units of knights in front of them to divert :biggriin:
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I think you should take 0, 6 on the Level 2. A Mountain Chimera could be a lot of fun.
On foot only.
For the level 4 I think Wildform, Impenetrable Pelt, Amber Spear and Savage Beast . The spear is our 2nd Cannon and we may need the level 4s extra boot to cast this.
Agree.
I´d go for Wyssan´s and Flock of Doom on the lvl 2; cheap to cast (we can easily 1-dice it) and could actually do some damage against Reavers. It´ll either draw precious DD, or give us some free points.
This.
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Someone may need to confirm this, but off the top of my head....
Book of Hoeth: Reroll 1 dice in every attempt to cast or dispel. Basically this lets them throw less dice at spells and importantly takes away a fair bit of the risk of 1 dicing spells.
Star Lance: I think its just +3S on charge
Golden Crown: I think 2+Ward against 1st wound
Ring of Khaines Fury: is a Ruby Ring that does 2D6 S4.
Book of Hoeth- correct.
Star Lance- +3 Str AND no armour saves on a charge...
Golden Crown- correct.
Khaines Fury- corrrect- 2d6 Str 4
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Agree with spells and being patient...which is alittle weird for a cav list.
Thoughts
-Frosties are scary but some decent cannon shots and Amber Spears should make them more manageable. Maybe one can even be pinned down by a unit and allow a few more units to pile in. Free icies for everyone then.
-White Lions...taken straight up: Yikes....taken on the flank with a unit of Demi's: much better idea though it will take a bit to chew through them (maybe a bad Ld test to break them wouldnt be bad either)
-Mage...either simply counter with dispell dice and scroll, or send in the flying cav to take out right away
-Bolt throwers...I think these could be very annoying, having just enough power to play havoc with capts and Demi's. Nice be a good idea to make these disappear sooner then later.
Anywho, just some random thoughts. Let us hope our faith in Sigmar and 1+ armor saves carries the day.
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The Lvl 4 rolled first for Empire and picked Wildform, Imp Pelt, Amber Spear, and Savage Beasts (dropped one 6 to Amber and the other to Wildform)
The Lvl 2 kept Flock of Doom and dropped the other to Wildform.
Waiting on confirmation of the High Elf spell choices.
I rolled for who picks sides/deploys first and Empire won.
Need you to pick which side you want. Once that is done, I will post the deployment zones for your units and you can deploy all your units.
Remember, you will get the first turn on a 1-5. They get the first turn on a 6.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG5Dep_zps97fae880.jpg)
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I'm thinking the top of the board.
The main reason is that the tower and water will likely force the HE to split their forces to either side if they want to come straight at us. With us likely having first turn this gives us a chance to get up quickly with some of our units and redeploy others to ensure that their army stays split and we can focus on one half of their army at a time.
If they chose to put their army primarily on one side we can use our speed (and 1st turn) to swing round the tower and try and choke them up between the tower and their back edge.
It will be important to remember (as I always stuff this up) that they could take the tower with the white lions and then exit in a favourable position the next turn, so beware the unit in the tower!!
As for dealing with the Frosties....if they leave one isolated I say we charge it with a Captasus or Knight unit. On its own the Frosty doesn't have a lot of combat output and as we can't be stomped so even if we can't kill it it may take several turns for it to free itself and get to the important combats.
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I'm thinking the top of the board.
The main reason is that the tower and water will likely force the HE to split their forces to either side if they want to come straight at us. With us likely having first turn this gives us a chance to get up quickly with some of our units and redeploy others to ensure that their army stays split and we can focus on one half of their army at a time.
If they chose to put their army primarily on one side we can use our speed (and 1st turn) to swing round the tower and try and choke them up between the tower and their back edge.
It will be important to remember (as I always stuff this up) that they could take the tower with the white lions and then exit in a favourable position the next turn, so beware the unit in the tower!!
As for dealing with the Frosties....if they leave one isolated I say we charge it with a Captasus or Knight unit. On its own the Frosty doesn't have a lot of combat output and as we can't be stomped so even if we can't kill it it may take several turns for it to free itself and get to the important combats.
Well, in truth either side of the board would force them to split their units. Myself, I would choose the bottom half since if they come at us, theyll split once they reach the central tower. If they have the bottom half, they can probably have lions enter the tower turn 1 and leave the tower turn 2 on the other side with no loss in movement whatsoever. Plus, by taking the bottom half we deny their frosties easy hiding spots behind the central building from cannon/ambear spear shots. If we decide to go at them however splitting our forces isnt such a big deal as we have more mobility, and arent relying on a typically stationary BSB bubble.
Im not totally sure they will come at us. Between the 2 bolt throwers, archers, reavers, ring of fury and inevitable pit of shades they may have more dangerous ranged options to us than we do at them. A portion of their army (namely white lions) maycome at us but not necessarily. If i were them, id sit back, pit of shades the steam tank early, use the bolt throwers with big bolts to take out the peg captains, then send in white lions to deal with demigryphs (bolstered by miasma, enfeebling). Hence I think we need to be prepared to advance quick and potentially use our small knight units (and maybe even a peg captain) as chaff.
I agree about being careful with the building though - white lions in there could present a problem.
We really need to wait to see their spells before we decide anything big.
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Good points Playonwords.
I missed that the Tower wouldn't slow the white lions down at all.
You do bring up a good point...Who is the aggressor??
As we will likely have first turn this is something we need to assess correctly from the outset.
We may very well be the agressors at the start, but if we can take out the bolt throwers in the first turn or so they will likely have to come at us.
That said because we are deploying first though the HE will also have the opportunity to hide the bolt throwers from the STank at least for the first turn.
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The tower is a double-edged sword though. It's pretty far forward, so if we can position a unit some 5" away from it in the northern "semicircle", they can just about get out. Any closer and they need to go sideways or back, or assume a completely weird formation. I don't think you can charge out of a building.
I'd pick the northern side probably but I'm not dogmatic about that.
Remember that the Boltthrowers can move/fly. Even though its "just" 10", that can lead to some nasty flank shots, and we don't want that. Boosting the T of our Captasi first turn could be a wise move to somewhat neuter the bolters killing them off. Having said this, they're S5 d3 wounds, so not exactly a cannon-level danger.
The archers and reavers are unproblematic, shooting-wise. Yes, they might cause the odd wound but S3 is mainly going to pling off.
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I don´t think either half particularily favors us...if anything, I think I´d pick the lower to deny them access to the central tower.
White Lions can move through forests, right? Pretty much nothing on the battlefield will slow those guys down, something to keep in mind!
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Remember that the Boltthrowers can move/fly. Even though its "just" 10", that can lead to some nasty flank shots, and we don't want that. Boosting the T of our Captasi first turn could be a wise move to somewhat neuter the bolters killing them off. Having said this, they're S5 d3 wounds, so not exactly a cannon-level danger.
Umm...these arent skycutter bolt throwers we're talking about - but real bolt throwers. Thats S6, D3 wounds no armour save.
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High Elf Spells
Lvl 4- Miasma, Withering, Pit, Okkams
Lvl 1- Wildform
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Sides don't matter a bunch (though less woods at the top for DT, except there is a fence). Think about STank and Amber Spear shots at a Phoenix turn 1. Which side gives him the best cover/blocked LOS? Take the opposite? Something to think about.
Working with Boss today, probably not much input from 8-5.
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The only thing that could block LoS is the tower really, and even that is iffy if we go first.
Umm...these arent skycutter bolt throwers we're talking about - but real bolt throwers. Thats S6, D3 wounds no armour save.
Ah okay, I thought Eagle Claw meant something special but I see it's just a fancy name. So then they can't fly, which makes it so much easier to deny them flank shots. One worry less.
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I'm still inclined for the top.
- Terrain to minimize Eagle Claws (Tower, Fence, Forest) in all three zones.
- Deploy STank first and build around it
- Avoid the Lions, kill the little stuff
- Assuming reasonable deployment, he'll be split by the Tower, we're fast enough to pin him in (no room to exit if he enters the Tower). I expect his Archers and Wizard to stay there safe and sound all game anyway.
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Both Generals have mentioned liking the top- so, without wasting time, the top is yours.
Here is how your zone/unit deployment shaped up:
Empire Deployment Zone Rolls:
Left Flank (North East):
Battle Wizard Lord
Ogre Blade Captasus
Center:
Knight 1
Knight 3 (Std)
Knight 4 (Std)
Demi 1 (big unit)
Demi 2
Demi 3
Right Flank (North West):
Knight 2
Stank
BSB Capt
Deploy Anywhere:
DH/OTS Capt
Remember- all the characters on the Pegs will get Look Out Sir rolls when within 3 inches of the big Demi unit as long as it has 5 models.
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I recommend just giving me a general idea of what your deployment thoughts are and I will produce a draft and we can tweak/get input from there.
Please include formation sizes too when appropriate- like 6X1 or 3X2 for the Knights, for example.
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I think that deployment roll works quite well for us.
I'll have a better look at this after work....but with the STank threatening the right and the ability to put two Captasus on the left the isn't anywhere safe to hide the Bolt Throwers and Phoenix. The Phoneix could be dealt with by a double charge from the captasus....the OTS hopefully helping get a wound or two off it so it breaks due to combat res.
On the right we just need to ensure we can move both the STank and the knights freely as the tower causes some issues with that. I imagine the STank right in the leading corner closest to centre with the knights beside them in a 2 or 3 wide formation.
Wiz Lord and BSB captasus can both be deployed so they can rush back to hide near the big unit of demis.
Not sure how to setup the centre, but sooo tempted to setup a Demigryphon version of HHGs Gryphon formation just for fun :)
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Not sure how to setup the centre, but sooo tempted to setup a Demigryphon version of HHGs Gryphon formation just for fun :)
That's what I was thinking. Flee Knights to the front, DG's behind.
I concur with STank. Right at the junction of the Right/Center Deployment zone. Small Knights west to swing around Tower, BSB behind STank.
OTS Captisus behind Tower near STank?
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Not sure how to setup the centre, but sooo tempted to setup a Demigryphon version of HHGs Gryphon formation just for fun :)
That's what I was thinking. Flee Knights to the front, DG's behind.
I concur with STank. Right at the junction of the Right/Center Deployment zone. Small Knights west to swing around Tower, BSB behind STank.
OTS Captisus behind Tower near STank?
Maybe everyone make a trial deployment pic to review
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Not sure how to setup the centre, but sooo tempted to setup a Demigryphon version of HHGs Gryphon formation just for fun :)
A true Steel Griffon... 8-)
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Which zone is the L2 beasts mage deployed?
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Which zone is the L2 beasts mage deployed?
Good Question.
Something like this?
(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/4691/q18e.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/q18e.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
The Western Knights can be 3x2 or 6x1 and still fit.
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Yeah i had something similar, but i had the 5 demis with 3 front and 2 behind. Most peg Captains and L4 mage as close as possible to the 5 demis for LoS. Have no idea if my unit dimensions are close to real though - im just guessing in photoshop.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MsmRhstO1hk/Ug2Dgnm5cGI/AAAAAAAAAsM/179EA2UV54A/w720-h480-no/Map+1.jpg)
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Which zone is the L2 beasts mage deployed?
Good Question.
Something like this?
Oops- missed the Lvl2. He got the center zone.
Noght- I emailed you the actual BC file with the terrain and units prepped in it for your use.
I messed around with the Empire deployment myself, just to see what I would do- and it looks very similar to what you just posted.
The only difference- I had the big demi unit close to the Stank and the other Capt in front of it between the STank and where you have Knight1. This way if the HE get the first turn, both Captasus have Look Out Sirs from the big Demis. Your DG1 I had in the forest- so everything important has some kind of cover from the RBTs.
Like previously mentioned, I think the deployment rolls came out favorably for you!
:::cheers:::
HHG
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A couple of ideas from me.....note HHG is using Demiwolves!
The only real difference from Noght and Playonwords is the position of the OTS Captasus...i'd like to position him to support the Ogre Blade Captasus and threaten that flank.
The true steel griffon:
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/warlordsteve/TTEmpDep_Deployment_zpsa421a6ec.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/warlordsteve/media/TTEmpDep_Deployment_zpsa421a6ec.jpg.html)
This 2nd option sets up the 2 3xdemiwolves to support each other and assumes the unit of 5 is ok without as much support.
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/warlordsteve/TTEmpDep_Deployment2_zpsbb01ca75.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/warlordsteve/media/TTEmpDep_Deployment2_zpsbb01ca75.jpg.html)
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A couple of ideas from me.....note HHG is using Demiwolves!
Too funny- the default unit I built in BC is Demiwolves....because I have 6 of them being prepped to be painted next to my wartable!
I will change the labels to Demichickens before we get this thing started.
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I like Noght's setup. Whatever we chose, we should check that as many Peg riders as possible get an LoS and some cover and that the BSB can cover a bunch of troops. The large DGK unit doesn't need to be one of these obviously.
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A couple of ideas from me.....note HHG is using Demiwolves!
The only real difference from Noght and Playonwords is the position of the OTS Captasus...i'd like to position him to support the Ogre Blade Captasus and threaten that flank.
The true steel griffon:
I'd prefer the Knights 6x1 to maximize the -2 to hit from shooting and to only lose a single Knight to that Bolt Thrower.
If you want to combo the OTS Capt and Ogre Capt, thats fine, but you have to support the STank out West because a single Knights unit may not be enough. May require a small DG unit to swing West.
Deploy:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img689/6235/3v1n.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/3v1n.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Turn 1:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img59/6237/n3kt.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/n3kt.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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I like Noght's setup. Whatever we chose, we should check that as many Peg riders as possible get an LoS and some cover and that the BSB can cover a bunch of troops. The large DGK unit doesn't need to be one of these obviously.
Good catch, forgot about the Gleaming Pendant! So you could deploy the Large DG block farther East for LOS on 3 Peg Riders, and still crash the center...
(http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4875/d8td.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/713/d8td.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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Sounds like a plan!
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Looks good overall. Just one minor quibble: It's a certain risk to deploy the Demis like that against bolters. I realize we have a 5/6 chance to get first turn and cover and long range so it's a *very* small risk which we might be prepared to accept - if so, fine with me, just thought I'd point it out.
Seeing that we likely go first, it's probably more important to get the LoS and AoE stuff right after we've moved! :-)
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Looks good overall. Just one minor quibble: It's a certain risk to deploy the Demis like that against bolters.
I saw that, the Knights provide a -2 to hit so he'd need a 6 (to go first) and a 6 to hit (long range + hard cover).
I envision split Bolters and Phoenix so I'm feeling that the WL and BSB move to the center, the 2 Captains snuggle up to the fence, and Spear / Cannon a Phoenix.
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...and a 5 or 6 to kill the first and not get stuck, I know. Don't worry.
Most of his stuff should be in the centre box. That still gives some leeway but with the tower, it could get quite crowded.
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I think you could put the Demis facing forward or at an angle next to the STank and regardless of which way the tank rolls out to a target the Demis have the movement to swing to either side.
Of course, you could always tempt them with the difficult shot and hope they miss...
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I like you last option Noght....with the 5 Demis near the Wiz Lord.
I would do as HHG is suggesting though and have an angle rather than 90 degree orientation for the Demis near the Stank.
I'm not sure where you've put the level 2, but lurking behind the lines with as much cover would be good.
Overall I'm more likely to gamble on the first turn and risk no LoS if we think the positioning is important enough. That said I know what he dice log is like....I think we're 50/50 to get first turn :)
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Overall I'm more likely to gamble on the first turn and risk no LoS if we think the positioning is important enough. That said I know what he dice log is like....I think we're 50/50 to get first turn :)
:icon_lol:
I'm going to play the odds and see what happens. I concur with the 45* facing. The other unit of DGs will move a bit east. You can attach the Wizard to any unit for protection from BS shooting, even the DGs.
*** wait, do we even get LOS from anything? He only has BS shooting, no templates***
I'd like the small Knight unit to discover what type of mysterious Forest it is though before I commit more units though.
HHG sent me the map, I'll wait until he updates.
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*** wait, do we even get LOS from anything? He only has BS shooting, no templates***
He has pit of shades, but youd get LOS from BS shooting anyway
Also, are we deploying the steam tank horizontally like a lot of people do these days?
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*** wait, do we even get LOS from anything? He only has BS shooting, no templates***
Characters get LOS for all shooting- BS, templates, etc.
The forest came out as a Blood Forest.
How does this look?
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpDepPoss5_zpsfb86ac8b.jpg)
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Looks ok to me
It'll all sort itself out in the 1st movement phase when we see what the HE do
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Looks ok to me
It'll all sort itself out in the 1st movement phase when we see what the HE do
Same, thanks HHG.
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So you can start thinking about T1, here is how the HE rolls came out.
High Elf Deployment Zone Rolls:
Left Flank:
Frostheart 1
Center:
Reaver 1
Reaver 2
Archers
Frostheart 2
Eagle Bolt Thrower 1
Right Flank:
Silver Helms
White Lion 2
Eagle Bolt Thrower 2
Deploy Anywhere:
White Lion 1
Both their Wizards are starting in the Archers, BSB in Helms.
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*** wait, do we even get LOS from anything? He only has BS shooting, no templates***
This was at the back of my mind all the time. You're right, we don't get LoS, and we do not even need it.
Please check it again (p. 99): Characters cannot be targetted by regular shooting if there are at least 5 RnF including M & S but not C. If there are less, you assign one hit to every model and then wrap around, no LoS. The latter works only against templates which can in fact target/hit a specific model. LoS also does not work against Pit of Shades, at least not when we're going by the book.
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*** wait, do we even get LOS from anything? He only has BS shooting, no templates***
This was at the back of my mind all the time. You're right, we don't get LoS, and we do not even need it.
Please check it again (p. 99): Characters cannot be targetted by regular shooting if there are at least 5 RnF including M & S but not C. If there are less, you assign one hit to every model and then wrap around, no LoS. The latter works only against templates which can in fact target/hit a specific model. LoS also does not work against Pit of Shades, at least not when we're going by the book.
Not sure what you are getting at here LSP. If a model is in a unit with 5 RnF he gets in a LoS on a 2+. What you are describing is a character in a unit where the RnF count drops below 5 and hits are distributed.
In our case, the characters are near the unit, not in it. If a model is within 3" of a similar troop type of 5 RnF then he gets a LoS on a 4+.
Demis are MC, Peg Rider models are treated as MC. We have a unit of 5 Demis no champ. Therefore any shooting hit (besides magic) on one of our Peg Riders within 3 inches of our 5 Demis will get a 4+ LoS.
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Okay.
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LoS also does not work against Pit of Shades, at least not when we're going by the book.
That is not correct:
Official Update Version 1.8 p. 9:
Q: Does the ‘Look Out Sir’ special rule apply against all spells that use templates? (p93)
A: Yes.
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LoS also does not work against Pit of Shades, at least not when we're going by the book.
That is not correct:
Official Update Version 1.8 p. 9:
Q: Does the ‘Look Out Sir’ special rule apply against all spells that use templates? (p93)
A: Yes.
Nice. I assume MM and DD spells that don't use templates do not allow LoS for lone characters though.
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LoS also does not work against Pit of Shades, at least not when we're going by the book.
That is not correct:
Official Update Version 1.8 p. 9:
Q: Does the ‘Look Out Sir’ special rule apply against all spells that use templates? (p93)
A: Yes.
Nice. I assume MM and DD spells that don't use templates do not allow LoS for lone characters though.
Sorry for the confusion. Characters in units vs Ballistic Skill shooting, no LOS (distribute equally). Characters outside a Unit get LOS for Ballistic. Characters get LOS from Template weapons and spells. No LOS for MM/DD.
I just never have characters out of a unit so I sometimes forget, my bad!
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What Noght says. No LoS against spells that do not use templates. But for the FAQ, a LoS would not even be allowed against spells that use templates.
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Indeed, what Noght says - sorry for the confusion, I feel totally stupid for looking at the wrong page. Never was aware of that FAQ answer Fidelis presented either. It's rather difficult to keep it all fresh at my age. :icon_redface:
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It's rather difficult to keep it all fresh at my age. :icon_redface:
I know that only to well!
This is one of the things I love about TEGs/TDGs- I learn something new (or figure out I am doing something wrong) every time!
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As long as we are in learning mode then:
Could, with the last detup noght sent (the picture some posts back), elven scouts be deployed in the right-hand and maybe even left-hand corner?
If this is the case (and I am not sure at all): Could they charge the wizard lord first turn (vangaurded fast-cavalry cannot, right-- can scouts)?
Would we know if they had scouts (are the lists that open)?
Sorry for all these questions...
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Could they charge the wizard lord first turn (vangaurded fast-cavalry cannot, right-- can scouts)?
Would we know if they had scouts (are the lists that open)?
If you Vanguard a unit, they cannot charge if you get the first turn.
If you deploy a Scout, it also cannot charge if you get the first turn.
With open lists, we know what type of units they have- in this case they didn't take any Shadow Warriors or Sisters so no Scouts. Their Reavers are fast cavalry and can Vanguard, however.
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. Their Reavers are fast cavalry and can Vanguard, however.
And they will. Expecting flees or Holds depending on what's deployed behind.
hHG, did you roll for each Elven Character separately?
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. Their Reavers are fast cavalry and can Vanguard, however.
And they will. Expecting flees or Holds depending on what's deployed behind.
hHG, did you roll for each Elven Character separately?
No- if they join a unit before the roll, which they did, they deploy with that unit.
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. Their Reavers are fast cavalry and can Vanguard, however.
And they will. Expecting flees or Holds depending on what's deployed behind.
hHG, did you roll for each Elven Character separately?
No- if they join a unit before the roll, which they did, they deploy with that unit.
Yep, just making sure.
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FYI- Fandir and Rothgar were out of pocket this weekend for the HE. Still waiting on their deployment choices.
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FYI- Fandir and Rothgar were out of pocket this weekend for the HE. Still waiting on their deployment choices.
Ask them if they want advice..... :icon_smile:
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If they have any questions regarding LoS, we're well prepared! :icon_wink:
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They are almost done. Working up their Vanguard...and then I will roll for the first turn.
Their east forest turned out to be a Wildwood.
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Here is what their final deployment looks like with their Vanguard moves made:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHEDepFinal_zps1ab0c2f7.jpg)
Empire T1:
Empire got the first turn.
I am going to assume you want to generate 4 Steam on the STank unless you tell me otherwise (although 5 Steam would get you some distance forward with a cannon shot....
Any charges? West Reavers are 18.1 inches away from the closest Knights. East Reavers are at least 20.1 inches away from all the Captasus.
After that, I will send you the file Noght if you want to play with it to get things started.
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You can send the file.
My first thought is no charges and 4 Steam Points, move 2, shoot 2. Need to make sure the STank doesn't get pivot blocked.....
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You can send the file.
My first thought is no charges and 4 Steam Points, move 2, shoot 2. Need to make sure the STank doesn't get pivot blocked.....
STank gets off 4 steam, no issues.
I will send you the file. (Did you download the latest version of BC? It has a cool features in the log section that calculates exactly how far units move. Much easier to get exact full distances that way!)
:::cheers:::
HHG
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I will send you the file. (Did you download the latest version of BC? It has a cool features in the log section that calculates exactly how far units move. Much easier to get exact full distances that way!)
HHG
I have the May 2011 version 1.2.3.0 which I think is the most up to date.
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I will send you the file. (Did you download the latest version of BC? It has a cool features in the log section that calculates exactly how far units move. Much easier to get exact full distances that way!)
HHG
I have the May 2011 version 1.2.3.0 which I think is the most up to date.
Yep- you are GTG.
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Guys
I will be at training all week some my input will be somewhat limited....yes I do my best TEG work while at work :)
Can I grab a copy of the BC file as well HHG?
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Can that map be modified to show where the HE characters are? I know it was stated in the deployment zone roll-off but itd be handy to see it here. Keeping a close eye on pit of shdes distance could be important.
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Heres my ideas
1. Move the West-most knights forward around the tower, though keeping out of front arc of the frostheart
2. Move the stank up 2D6 and shoot and the west frostheart. It should then be in range to threaten the reavers if they to get behind our lines. Unfortunately this DOES put him in range of a pit of shades from the archmage (who will probably move with the archers into the tower) - we may have to scroll this on his turn 1.
3. Move the L2 wizard into a unit of knights -he's the only viable target for their archers (who will probably move into the tower turn 1) so hes vulnerable.
4. Move DG2, DG3, Kgt3, Kgt4, and L2 wizard forward and angle slightly toward the tower, but NOT presenting a flank to the west frostheart. Flock of doom on the central bolt thrower. He'll probably let that through since he'll be trying to stop amber spear.
5. Move the BSB to be near the 5 Demis
6. Move Kgt1 and Lance captainsus to charge central reavers. We then have choice to redirect into the central bolt thrower if he flees. We can always flee from white lions if need be.
7. Bait a charge for the silverhelms by moving the Sword captainsus up to charge the east bolt thrower (placing him directly in front of the silverhelms ~18" away). Move and angle the 5 demis slightly east to face. If his silverhelms charge the captainsus, flee him and then countercharge with 5 demis (he then cant flee or he'll probably be off the board). If he doesnt charge, then the captainsus can take out the bolt thrower.
8. Depending on no. 7, Amber spear the central or east bolt thrower. Or try to bubble the pelt on nearby peg characters to protect from bolt thowers.
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Can that map be modified to show where the HE characters are? I know it was stated in the deployment zone roll-off but itd be handy to see it here. Keeping a close eye on pit of shdes distance could be important.
BSB is front, far left in the Helms.
Both Mages are in the front, far right in the Archers.
They can make the Tower in one move.
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Playonwords has outlined a solid movement phase, however I would suggest a few modifications:
1. Move the stank up only 1D6 and shoot with 3 perhaps? That should keep it out of range of Pit. It doesn't need to attack the Reavers right away but can shoot again next turn.
2. DG2, DG3, Kgt3, Kgt4 could indeed move slightly forward but try to create a no-go zone for the Reavers and the FP. Just make sure not to present a flank for any bolter either.
I'm for trying a Spear, either on a bolter or an FP. Hurting or taking out any of these early would be nifty.
A Phoenix does about a wound on Demis, plusminus. If all 3 can attack, they'll do one in return, so whoever gets the charge off is likely to win. While the thing has a high Ld, we do have numerical superiority here and could possibly pull off a supporting flank charge as well. Of course with a Flyer, the situation can change in a heartbeat.
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Have tried to show what Playonwords is thinking...
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/warlordsteve/TTEmpT1Start_Turn_1_Beast_Masters_zps9934ed19.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/warlordsteve/media/TTEmpT1Start_Turn_1_Beast_Masters_zps9934ed19.jpg.html)
I'll work through something myself soon
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Does it matter how close the lvl2 is to knights4? If one of the knights3 dies he doesn't get a look out sir anymore right?
Also, it seems above that their are multiple holes for the reavers to move behind our lines. Is there a way to make a mor tight formation by slightly adjusting knights2 (closer to tower) and the other knights/demis?
Could we possibly bait the Frostheart in the west with knights4? If he charges the steamtank/demis could countercharge. If he doesn't the knights can move through to behind the tower forcing the WL or the frostheart to deal with them? This would involve pushing knights4 much more forwards probably though, leaving demis unprotected... We could try the same with one of the captasi?
Just some thoughts!
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Here's where my thoughts led to.
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/warlordsteve/TTEmpT1Start_Turn_1_Beast_Masters2_zpsf7547aaf.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/warlordsteve/media/TTEmpT1Start_Turn_1_Beast_Masters2_zpsf7547aaf.jpg.html)
I'd like to take a pot shot at the middle Phoenix with the STank as its in a more threatening position. 2 dice move, 2 dice cannon.
With the knights on the flank, demis and STank the the other Phoenix can't afford to move into that space and will need to spend a turn flying along the back board edge to join the rest of the army...buying time for another pot shot. The Phoenix would need an 11 or more to charge any of these units this turn. I am happy to deal with this phoenix with pure combat res. Ld 8 and is miles away from their BSB. I'd like to clear this flank in the next turn or so and get DG2 down around the bottom of the water feature.
The knights have all moved up to block the reavers from getting through the lines...positions all depend on what the STank rolls.
IN the middle I've brought the unit of 3 Demis over to support the 5 demis creating another no go zone for the HE. The knights in the middle conviently are setup for flank charging anything too adventurous.
Pretty much following Playonwords plans on the other flank.
All units in forward positions can only be charged by rolls of 10+ (except the reavers) on the dice while needing 9's at worst to charge the bolt throwers.
The plan for magic is flock of doom at the reavers...just in case of pivot blocking shenanigans from them and amber spear at the middle spear chucker.
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What would happen if the reavers would charge the steamtank next turn? Steamtank would not be able to pivot (wasting its cannon) and the demi's would be stuck (or could they just sneak through)?
Also: Is there a spot in the west side of the board, just out of the charge arc of the knights2 where the FH could go? If so, it could get in the backfield in turn 2....
It seems to me those reavers could cause a whole shitload of delays...
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Have tried to show what Playonwords is thinking...
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/warlordsteve/TTEmpT1Start_Turn_1_Beast_Masters_zps9934ed19.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/warlordsteve/media/TTEmpT1Start_Turn_1_Beast_Masters_zps9934ed19.jpg.html)
I'll work through something myself soon
I'd prefer this. Only thing is to protect the STank from pivot blocking by getting K4 and K2 closer. Easier shot, bounce, on West Phoenix, you have the full base so a 6, 8, or 10 bounce hits.
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2 questions:
Is the captasus still close enough to the DG1 to get a look out sir?
Would moving K2 leave that side of the tower open for the FH if it isn't killed? Could you use the tower to prevent pivot blocks?
I'll stop with these annoying questions now :icon_redface:
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Would moving K2 leave that side of the tower open for the FH if it isn't killed? Could you use the tower to prevent pivot blocks?
Random mover is random. Never know how far you'll move, so the Tower could protect the pivot block. Just need to make sure that the Reavers can't get through either side.
Phoenix is too far away to get past the Knights this turn methinks.
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Can you send me the file back George so I don't have to recreate it?
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I got BC working HHG, thanks!
Could get aggressive out West?
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4804/khe4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32/khe4.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Included East: Spear Range to Bolt Thrower 24", Flock range to Reavers < 24". 12" BSB bubble if K4 flee.
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7552/bkpg.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/bkpg.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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I recreated the one from Playonwords/George.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT1Final_zpsc7e6a34f.jpg)
The STank gets 7 inches on 2 Steam. I moved the Knights up to prevent pivot blocking. I also moved Knight1 over in this chart so the Demis have room to pivot and charge if they want...
Once word of caution that I learned from Sammay's list last TEG- I would not continue to leave Knight units right in front of Demis. Don't be afraid of that forest and spreading your forces out... All HE has to do is park Frosties right in front of your Knights and your Demis get stranded behind and can't get into the action....
I would even consider having the Wiz attached to the Knight unit cast a spell in it so maybe you can move that forest.
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Why are we hanging the OTS Captasus out to dry in the center, short range from the Bolt Thrower? Other than that I'm fine as long as you can't Pivot Block the Tank. Is the L2 able to cast Flock at Reavers in that position? Or should you attach him to the DGs for a turn?
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I like the latest movement plan shown in HHGs post with one main exception. The sword captainsus has to be directly in front of the silverhelms so he can flee without going off the board. He must also be within easy charge range of the east bolt thrower, which means ~18" away for a reasonable chance at this. Secondly for the trap to work the 5 demis MUST be closer to the silver helms - possibly 20". When the SH fail the charge theyll stumble forward ~4-5" putting the 5 demis within easy charge range. So angling them too much as shown is a mistake as it loses us distance to the HE line. Simply pushing the demis forward (while maintaining the SH in the forward arc) should be enough.
One alternative might be to put the captainsus much closer (i.e. 12" away), and sacrifice him to a SH charge to almost guarantee the 5 demis get to charge in. Itd certainly be worth the trade. The risk here (with both plans) is that he wont charge the SH in and simply bolt the captainsus off with a lucky roll. Odds on, he'll hit (needs a 3+), wound (needs 2+) but then needs a 5 or 6 to kill. Id chance that.
Why are we hanging the OTS Captasus out to dry in the center, short range from the Bolt Thrower? Other than that I'm fine as long as you can't Pivot Block the Tank. Is the L2 able to cast Flock at Reavers in that position? Or should you attach him to the DGs for a turn?
Yes, its a calculated risk as also described in the plan(s) above. We need to eliminate the bolt thrower. But hopefully with this captainsus we could get off a pelt to protect him. And I still think flock is better done at the bolt thrower - they only have 2 wounds.
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I put the Captasus 19 inches away from the RBT- so the Silver Helms will need 20 inches to reach him.
Your plan is sound except the HE will not fall for it- you have to realize the quality of opponents you are facing.
In this scenario, they will not charge the Captasus but move forward and use the Reavers to block a Demi charge.
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Why are we hanging the OTS Captasus out to dry in the center, short range from the Bolt Thrower? Other than that I'm fine as long as you can't Pivot Block the Tank. Is the L2 able to cast Flock at Reavers in that position? Or should you attach him to the DGs for a turn?
Yes, its a calculated risk as also described in the plan(s) above. We need to eliminate the bolt thrower. But hopefully with this captainsus we could get off a pelt to protect him. And I still think flock is better done at the bolt thrower - they only have 2 wounds.
You can do the same thing by moving him behind the tower but with Line of Sight (peeking) on Bolter. If the Bolter fires at him it's -2 to hit for Hard Cover. No way the West Phoenix will declare a 21+" charge. You will eat 10 Arrows from the Tower Archers but that's a given methinks.
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So Noght- how much time do you want to leave for input?
Just let me know what you want to go with/are happy with and we will move on when you are ready.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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I'm for George's last pic with some tweaks to the 2 Peg Captains. Lets discuss them a bit more. Sending the Ogre Blade Capt east feels like a huge waste. Centering him gives us more options.
I'd like to see the few Western Elves removed ASAP and then steam gun the tower for like 3 turns.... :icon_smile:
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Alright Noght, based on what you are describing on George's pic 2:
--I kept the far west Knights out of the Frostie LOS. A cheap Terror charge could force it off the table otherwise.
--STank got 7 inches and aims as close to the tower as he can. No way to prevent the Reaver from pivot-blocking, but the STank rolls straight forward for your Steam shot into the tower and the Reavers will then get run down.
--I moved one Peg into the "peek" position you are talking about
--I kept the other Peg back into reserve. With all the short range character spells you have in your arsenal, you could quickly go through all your Pegs Capts if you are aggressive and never cast one spell on them.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT1Final2_zps931e9f94.jpg)
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Hmm, what exactly does the cautious positioning of the Captasi do for us? I mean sure they might combo charge stuff and are relatively safe but I liked the prospect of getting to kill a bolter right off the bat.
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Hmm, what exactly does the cautious positioning of the Captasi do for us? I mean sure they might combo charge stuff and are relatively safe but I liked the prospect of getting to kill a bolter right off the bat.
The Capt has LOS to the EBT, but the White Lions can't see it.
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I guess LSP was talking about the east captasus? By not being agressive with it, the silverhelms can now do whatever they want, the reavers can divert whoever they want, and the eagle claw is safe for at least 2 turns... Not saying we shouldn't be carefull, but aren't these downsides of not being agressive on that flank at all?
Furthermore, could DG2 move a little further (or does it get into range of something then) so as to put pressure on the FH and reavers and spoil the pivotblocking?
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Alright Noght, based on what you are describing on George's pic 2:
Not exactly. When I get back I'll tweak it. I'd still like to shoot the West Phoenix, may be the only easy shot we get all game.
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Alright Noght, based on what you are describing on George's pic 2:
Not exactly. When I get back I'll tweak it. I'd still like to shoot the West Phoenix, may be the only easy shot we get all game.
Please send me the file when you are done. Recreating these is getting tedious...
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Alright Noght, based on what you are describing on George's pic 2:
Not exactly. When I get back I'll tweak it. I'd still like to shoot the West Phoenix, may be the only easy shot we get all game.
Please send me the file when you are done. Recreating these is getting tedious...
:::cheers:::
HHG
No worries. At the Hospital with my Dad, some testing (he's fine), be back late afternoon.
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No problem, glad he is okay.
I am taking my wife out to dinner for our 25th wedding anniversary here in a few minutes...
Hopefully we can get this T1 move nailed down tonight. I want to get this kicked off!
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I liked the above, but liked the sword Capt out on the flank threatening the bolt thrower. We may lose him to 1 shot, but the HE will have to decide whether to protect it on the chance that it fails to kill with that one shot.
I am offline for a while today...I'm happy with whatever the team decides.
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Sorry, back.
Go with post 179 with the Ogre Blade Captasus threatening the eastern Bolter, like post 165, I'd like it 19" from the Bolter and Silver Helms.
Agreed team?
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Hopefully we got it now. 8-)
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT1Final3_zpse1e6a7d4.jpg)
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Just make the East Captain straight up so he doesn't flee off the board. Otherwise ok.
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Just make the East Captain straight up so he doesn't flee off the board. Otherwise ok.
Okay done.
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The Wildwood doesn't attack the White Lions.
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Empire T1 Magic Phase
You get a 4&2 for Winds of Magic. 1 Empire Channel.
7PD to 4DD.
What do you want to cast?
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I vote flock of doom on the central bolt thrower - 2 dice, then pumped up amber spear on it - 6 dice. It should finish it off. We don't really have much else to do. Pelt the wizard maybe?
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Well, we only have 7 but yes, 2 dice FoD the bolter, then either finish it off or put a boosted Spear into the central Frost Phoenix.
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Schuld the tank not be facing the west frostheart?
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Is flock on our level2?
I was thinking 2 dice flock on reaver1 and 5 dice spear on the middle bolt thrower
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Whoops yes. 2 dice flock and 5 dice spear. Maybe we should do that the other way around. If the spear kills, we can choose what to flock.
Well, we only have 7 but yes, 2 dice FoD the bolter, then either finish it off or put a boosted Spear into the central Frost Phoenix.
Amber spear is range 24" bumped or not. I don't think either FH is in range.
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1d Flock on the Reavers; we only need to roll a 2 to cast it and it´s on our lvl 2, so if he croaks it´s no big loss
5d boosted Spear on the Bolt Thrower...will draw all their DD, with a slightly lower chance of miscast the 6d
1d Pelt on the Wizard; he needs a 3 to cast and it´s our last spell anway, so if he doesn´t succeed it´s not a big loss
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That's another interesting possibility.
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Whoops yes. 2 dice flock and 5 dice spear. Maybe we should do that the other way around. If the spear kills, we can choose what to flock.
This. The goal is to remove either the Bolt Thrower or kill the Reavers. If Spear is dispelled we Flock the Bolter. Or we draw a dispel scroll. Spear first.
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Go ahead.
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A 5 dice boosted Amber Spear on EBT2 gets 18+4=22.
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HE Elves roll 4 dice to dispel. They rolled a 5,3,2,2. Rerolled one of the 2s and got a 1.
Total is 11+4=15. Failed to dispel.
Amber Spear wounds, and does 5 wounds. EBT2 is destroyed.
Frostie and Reavers make their Panic test, but White Lions 1 get a 11. They flee directly west away from the dead EBT. They go 3 inches and bounce over the Archers.
The Archers make their resulting Panic test.
Next, the Empire casts a 2 dice Flock of Doom at Reaver1 and get 8+2=10.
I assume they are going to let it go....
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Well that went better than expected.
Nice job.
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Well that went better than expected.
Nice job.
No kidding. Lets see if the Reavers pop.....
Of course, the WL will rally and eat our Western flank, of course if they blow the next LD roll, the Captasus might be able to bounce them.
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Flock of Doom gets 6 hits and get a good wound roll, killing 2 Reavers.
Reavers make their Panic test.
Empire Shooting Phase
STank fires a cannonball 10 inches off the back of the Frostie base. 6 inches on the first roll, 8 on the bounce.
Doesn't hit any Archers but nails the Frostie. Cannonball fails to wound.
End of Turn Graph:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT1Wrapup2_zps7e21a393.jpg)
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Whoah, what a bomb. Those WL are out of position to do anything useful for a while. Eating our west flank, hmm. The STank is always a threat while some Knights can occupy them for a while. Let's see how they react.
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Doesn't hit any Archers but nails the Frostie. Cannonball fails to wound.
:icon_lol: Fails to wound, c'mon at least let the Ward Save prevent damage. So far so good.
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Besides the fail to wound, the Dicelog has been with you.
HE declared two charges- Silver Helms on the Capt and Reavers on Knight 3's flank.
--Silver Helms get a 4,2,1. Failed charge.
--Reavers get worse on a 2,1,1. Failed charge.
They are working the rest of their movement now.
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Besides the two failed charges, the White Lions managed to rally.
Here is how they finished up their movement.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET1Fan4_zps6b7b4120.jpg)
HE T1 Magic Phase:
While the Dicelog wasn't good to them in the Movement Phase, they made up for it in the magic phase.
They rolled double 6s. No channels. Frosties now have 4+ Wards till their next turn.
They are working up their first magic phase plan now.
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Wow a lot happened overnight!
Our turn went fairly much as planned, i was worried when I saw the position of the white lions flee as I thought they might try to pair up on the flank with the frostie to make life difficult, but based on their reform it looks like we earnt ourselves a couple of turns.
Big magic phase coming though....they have the choice of pit, miasma, withering, okkams, wildform and ring of fury.
I can see them definitely wanting pit on the STank, ring of fury at our mage and miasma (movement) on our sword captain.
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Big magic phase coming though....
Let everything through except Pit......IMO
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@ Nought, just updated my post above... pit is a must stop, but what do you choose out of the others?
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pit, miasma, withering, okkams, wildform and ring of fury
I don't know what Ring of Fury does, but the only dangerous spell I see there is Pit. We might also want to dispel Miasma, but we've got enough units on the board that one slowing down won't hurt us too badly.
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No LOS for MM so if they fire at them Wiz Lord we might have to dispel that. Pit is the only must stop otherwise.
Thank goodness we have Swift Wind on our Attack Captasii, oh wait..... :icon_sad:
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HE didn't like the way I placed the Reavers. Small change- but they lost a Reaver to DT due to it.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET1FanInf_zpsa8219d16.jpg)
They started with a 3-dice boosted Miasma on the Demis. They get 13+4=17. A good roll.
I assume, based on the above, you are going to let it go.
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Let it go IMO.
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The Demi's stats get dropped by 3.
They are hitting hard again.
A 3-dice Withering on the Wiz Lord gets 5,4,3. They reroll the 3 and get a 5. 13+4=17.
Dispel choice?
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Hmm which of his chars has the ring again? His archers should be on 5+ to hit the wizard, and his bolt thrower can't hit him surely. So unless the ring can target him I think we can let this go
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Hmm which of his chars has the ring again? His archers should be on 5+ to hit the wizard, and his bolt thrower can't hit him surely. So unless the ring can target him I think we can let this go
The Lvl1 Mage in the Tower. He can target the Empire Lvl4 Wiz.
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We could let this go and just make sure we stop the ring (and pit obviously). As said before its unlikely the archers shooting will pose a threat, and his bolt thrower will have a hard cover modifier if he goes for the wizard. Unless he gets irrisitable force for the ring I think we're fine.
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We could let this go and just make sure we stop the ring (and pit obviously). As said before its unlikely the archers shooting will pose a threat, and his bolt thrower will have a hard cover modifier if he goes for the wizard. Unless he gets irrisitable force for the ring I think we're fine.
The Wiz will have a 4+ LoS from the Demis from the BS shooting too...unless they reduce the Demis down to 4 before they shoot at him.
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Yep that's partly why I say let it go. The wizard may take a wound from the archers on average. Assuming he gets -2 or -3 toughness off in him that is. Is that Maths right?
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How many Archers can shoot from the Tower? 10 or 15? I'd be inclined to try and dispel it if it's the latter.
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How many Archers can shoot from the Tower? 10 or 15? I'd be inclined to try and dispel it if it's the latter.
The one in the center is 3 stories high....but they only have 12 Archers.
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At 12 shots (at 5+ to hit) its on average 4 hits, 2 are lost to LoS, then both probably wound if the wizard is T2 or 1. Our ward then should save 1. I reckon let it through, so we're sure of dispelling the ring and pit. He may now choose the 5 Demis for pit given that they are now I1 from miasma. Steam tank is I3, so demis is the better choice.
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Let it through and hope he doesn't IF the Pit with or without his Book.
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Wow, tons of stuff going down all of a sudden...
HHG, did you account for the lore attribute with Flock on Reavers? (Not that it mattered, but it looks like you didn´t.)
We are totally going to cannonball that tower now that the Frosties are 4++, right? How are the rules for that again?
Unsure on the Withering...if we let it go, they will just throw everthing at the Pit and probably get IF and we´ll have wasted our DD. If we dispel, they can just use their dice advantage to get Pit off anyway. Is it time to break out the scroll yet? They´re unlikely to get another magic phase this big, and we could kill both of their wizard if we get to those Archers...
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The cannon would do d6 S10 hits. Nice, but unlikely to kill all that many archers but takes some pressure off a Withered Wizard. :-D
That's a valid consideration on magic. If he IF's Pit, we're boned anyways...but they were bound to 6-dice it from the start I think. We'll use the scroll anyways if they roll really high.
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Agreed - best to scroll if the pit roll is high.
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I would say scroll pit and dispel ring and this.
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I guess we´ll see what targets present themselves for our STank. d6 dead elves would make it easier for some knights to go in their and kill the rest. What about STank impact hits against the tower? I think I´ll go look that up now...
Edit: Darn, no impact hits against units in a building...ramming a STank into it would have been fun though. :biggriin:
Still, cannonball + Amber Spear + Flock average about 8-9 dead pointy ears, making an assault much more managable.
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Heading off to work- finalize your answer by this afternoon!
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If we are set on using the scroll we can 5 dice to stop withering and save 1 to stop the ring.
Or if the ring is the bigger threat 4 dice this and 2 for the ring.
The only reason to hold dice is if we want to be able to 6 dice pit.
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5DD for Withering; with 4DD we´d need to roll average, no thank you.
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+1.
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Let it go. It's not worth throwing 5 dice to dispel. We can dispel pit and the ring easily.
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Let it go. It's not worth throwing 5 dice to dispel. We can dispel pit and the ring easily.
Let's do the math a second. The Scroll of Shielding is only good against the Ring. So WL is 2++ vs Ring, doesn't matter what his Tough is.
If we stop it, use all the dice, then Ring hits Mage for 2d6 S4, say 8. 4 LOS, 2 to wound, 1 with Ward save. And shooting won't hurt him. If he rolls big use Scroll of Shielding. Dispel RIP next phase.
If we let it go WL takes the same from shooting so it's a push there. Of course this is assuming there are 5 Demi's near. We scroll/dispel the Pit and Ring. Probably have to do both because Book is going to continue making for high rolls.
Oh, and we want to Steam Gun the Tower. And I may be inclined to stick the OTS Peg into the Phoenix flank to jam up the WL.
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Okay- thanks for the responses. Reduces Wiz's T by 1
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Okay- thanks for the responses. Reduces Wiz's T by 1
Perfect. Now next turn put him in the Knight Bunker (same as the lvl 2) to prevent this from happening again (for a turn or two at least until there is no more shooting). I assure you a Phoenix will be in range soon.
Or we could get wacky with him and flank shoot Silver Helms with the Spear.
I screwed up shielding scroll, thought it gave MR...
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Next is a 2 dice blast from the Ring on the Lvl4. They got a 9.
Dispel response?
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Okay- thanks for the responses. Reduces Wiz's T by 1
Perfect. Now next turn put him in the Knight Bunker (same as the lvl 2) to prevent this from happening again (for a turn or two at least until there is no more shooting). I assure you a Phoenix will be in range soon.
The Wiz is a different troop type- so he won't be helped by being attached to reg Knights, but he would receive a benefit of distributed shooting by joining a unit of Demi's....
The crappy thing about Steam Gunnin the tower is that a template does 1D6 against a building, not everything under the template or the 2D6 for units hit in combat.
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Now I'm confused (again)...did we use any DD yet? If we're going to scroll Pit regardless (if possible), we could start to use some DD now, right?
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Right now they have 4PD left. You have all 6PD.
Two choices really- You could save the scroll this turn by taking a chance on your Wiz...or toss enough dice at this MM and plan to burn the scroll on Pit.
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We've got a level 4, so 2 dice has an 88% chance of dispelling. Not bad. That gives us 4 dice against their 4 dice for Pit of Shades.
If we fail, or they roll high on Pit, we can scroll it. But if they roll low we won't have to burn the scroll.
I say 2 dice to dispel.
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We've got a level 4, so 2 dice has an 88% chance of dispelling. Not bad. That gives us 4 dice against their 4 dice for Pit of Shades.
If we fail, or they roll high on Pit, we can scroll it. But if they roll low we won't have to burn the scroll.
I say 2 dice to dispel.
+1. Do this, even with BoH we might be ok.
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2 dice dispel: nets 6+4=10. Dispelled.
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+1. Do this, even with BoH we might be ok.
Book of Hoeth lets you reroll one dice for every casting or dispel attempt? It's not once per turn?
That's absurd.
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Insanely good. At least HE didn't get a 3+ Ward with reroll of 1s...
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Insanely good. At least HE didn't get a 3+ Ward with reroll of 1s...
It's only like 55 points right? It's really good no matter what the price.
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60 points would already be better: then it couldn't be combined with a 4++ save...
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Of course, the HE toss a 4 dice Pit of Shades centered on the Demis.
IF.
The Pit scatters 2 inches to the east but still hovers over 3 Demis. One Demi passes its I1 test, 2 Demis die.
Demis fail their first Panic test. They pass the second from the Pennant.
Miscast is a 7. As per page 127 of the BRB, all miscast damage in a building is handled like a template- 1d6 (confirmed by Fidelis).
5 hits, 5 wounds from the miscast. 5 Archers die. 7 Archers plus the two Mages remain.
Archers pass their Panic test.
HE Shooting Phase:
Archers are shaken up from the explosion- only 1 manages to hit the weakened Lvl4 Empire Wiz. It wounds, but the Wiz's makes its AS.
The EBT shoots a bolt at the Sword Captasus. Hits, wounds, and takes 2 away. Captasus has 1 remaining.
End of turn graph:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET1Wrapup_zps86b8acd8.jpg)
Start thinking about your next movement phase.
I can give you some ranges here in a sec.
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That was some good tactical use of pit by the HE....they were keen to get the magical supremacy and take out the wiz lord!
Sword Capt obviously charges the bolt thrower. Something needs to charge the tower as there isn't enough model lef tin the unit to keep the mages out of combat. Is the Lance Capt enough on his own, or should be tryingto get a unit of knights in.
I'm interested in charging knight2 into the reavers. If they flee there's a whoile bunch of panic chacks to be taken and we maybe get to redirect into the phoenix. If they hold we should be able to overrun into the flank of the Phoenix to lock him down for a turn or 2.
probably 4 steam on STank....1 for movement towards the phoenix and then a cannon at it. (depends on charges above). i think we keep movement ot a minimum so we are still able to swing around the top of the tower in the next few turns.
DG1 probably needs to charge the reavers while knight 1 block the white lions up....sending them more to the middle of the board to blockup the other lions.
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Probably does not make much difference, but the FAQ you refer to applies to Dimensional Cascade (2-4) and Calamitous Detonation (5-6), not Detonation (7). Detonation specifies that it does not hit the Wizard.
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Probably does not make much difference, but the FAQ you refer to applies to Dimensional Cascade (2-4) and Calamitous Detonation (5-6), not Detonation (7). Detonation specifies that it does not hit the Wizard.
Ya know, that went through my head earlier and then I forgot it. 5 Archers die instead.
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Here's my thoughts for charges. In this order:
1. Charge knight2 into the reavers. If he flees, as George says it'll be through multiple units forcing panic. But also he'll be open to a long range charge from knight1 (as long as he's within 19"), and should flee the board. Knight1 and 2 can redirect into respective frosthearts. Lets try for wild form on these so they still hit at S5.
2. Charge the BSB at the other reavers. He should be in decent range. When reavers flee, they should still be range for a charge by demi1. That should send them off the board (but might need to be careful here - the demis may end up exposing their flank to a white lion charge).
Actually, the demis could redirect into the white lions aided by a charge from the captainsus hiding behind the tower. Wildform on the demis to give T5 and savage beast on the captainsus. Could work out well - they can't flank charge us if other charges go to plan
3. Charge the sword captain at the bolt thrower. Obviously...
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There's a few more options, lemme peek and get back to you. Might want to STank Cannon/Steam Gun/Flock the Tower also.
BBIAB
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Something needs to charge the tower as there isn't enough model lef tin the unit to keep the mages out of combat. Is the Lance Capt enough on his own, or should be tryingto get a unit of knights in.
Only one unit can assault the Tower.
Some thoughts:
- Knight declare Charge on Rev1, see where he ends up.
- OTS declare charge on fleeing Rev1 (assuming he's that far) bouncing him off the board. Redirect into flank of Phoenix. I'd like it pinned right there.
- Knight1 charge the Phoenix. (Wildform Target)
- Demi1 declare charge on Rev2, who will flee, failed charge.
- Sword Capt declares charge on fleeing Rev2, redirect to Bolter.
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Something needs to charge the tower as there isn't enough model lef tin the unit to keep the mages out of combat. Is the Lance Capt enough on his own, or should be tryingto get a unit of knights in.
Only one unit can assault the Tower.
Some thoughts:
- Knight declare Charge on Rev1, see where he ends up.
- OTS declare charge on fleeing Rev1 (assuming he's that far) bouncing him off the board. Redirect into flank of Phoenix. I'd like it pinned right there.
- Knight1 charge the Phoenix. (Wildform Target)
- Demi1 declare charge on Rev2, who will flee, failed charge.
- Sword Capt declares charge on fleeing Rev2, redirect to Bolter.
Knight 1 may be able to see the fleeing Reavers, but I think the tower is going to block LOS for the OTS Capt.
The OTS Capt also can't see the Phoenix (the tower is 3 stories tall)
I think the best thing to do is to see how far the Reavers go if they decide to flee and then you can plan the rest of your movement.
Of course, even before that, need to know how many Steam for the STank.
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Something needs to charge the tower as there isn't enough model lef tin the unit to keep the mages out of combat. Is the Lance Capt enough on his own, or should be tryingto get a unit of knights in.
Only one unit can assault the Tower.
Was aware of this, just figured the knights had more combat output than 1 captain on peg....also the peg capt could be challenged out by the lower level mage. The knights could focus all 5 models on hitting the L4.
@Noght
My main worry with this plan is...can the OTS capt actually see the frostie....it looks like the HE have tried to hide him behind the tower
Also not sure we should risk failing our rediect test on the sword capt (Ld8 with no reroll) as this may be our last oportunity to get that bolt thrower.
@Noght and Playonwords
I wonder if Reaver2 will actually hold in order to bring our Demis out so they can be charged by both the lions and helms.
I like the plan of locking up the frosties with knights.
Just saw HHGs post....4 steam? 2 move 1 cannon, 1 steam (for the tower) or 1 move, 3 cannon (for shooting frostie)
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Of course, even before that, need to know how many Steam for the STank.
4, per usual
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Tweak age required I guess.
Don't shoot 4++ warded Phoenix methinks. Tie them up and pin them with Knights.
Maybe 5 Steam Points to move 2, cannon 1, Steam 2?
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I'm happy to risk 5.
i think we will need to see the results of charges to get a better feel of what to do with the Stank.
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Just to get things started:
--STank fires up 5 Steam, no issues.
--Demi1 declares a charge against Reaver 2. They flee 7 inches away. Pass DT tests.
--Knight2 declares a charge against Reaver 1. They hold.
--Sword Captasus declares a charge against EBT1 (the Reavers didn't reach his LOS for the Noght's Captasus push-plan)
Other ranges:
--DG2 needs 17 to also reach Reaver1
--Knight3 needs 16 inches to reach Frostie1
--Knight1 needs 14 inches to reach Frostie1
Pretty much everything else is mega long range or outta range.
Keep in mind- if you Steam Gun and Cannon the tower, the potential bounce range of the cannonball needs to be clear of units in combat. This means if you charge Frostie1 with Knights, you will have to take a really shallow clip of the NE edge of the tower with the cannonball traveling behind the Knight's asses.
If you don't charge Frostie1, it doesn't matter and you might get a freebie hit on the Frostie if the ball bounces far enough.
Not positive of this- but someone chastised me in an earlier TEG for using the STank's shooting assets to hit different targets. It makes complete sense that it could...but not sure the rules allow it. (I am sure Fidelis can chime in here)
A chart to help you visualize the action so far:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT2Start2_zps916fefc5.jpg)
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I think buildings stop cannon balls.
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I think buildings stop cannon balls.
It only clearly states that non-slain monsters and obstacles stop cannonballs- listing the page number for obstacles.
It doesn't say anything else about other types of terrain- I assume they "crash through."
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I think buildings stop cannon balls.
It only clearly states that non-slain monsters and obstacles stop cannonballs- listing the page number for obstacles.
It doesn't say anything else about other types of terrain- I assume they "crash through."
Its interesting that a stone wall could stop a cannonball, but not a building made of multiple stone walls? Anything in the building rules stating it would stop it?
I don't think we want DG2 to charge, I'd prefer to have knight2 reach and overrun into the frosty ensuring he is locked up in their turn and hopefully back down to a 5+ ward.
Could we send knight3 at the middle frosty to open a path for DG3 to assault the building....surely they would mince the L4 mage.
It looks like DG1 might actually catch the reavers which will let us reform! It also gives the lions and helms a chance to combo charge it. We need to use either knight1 or lance capt to block the lions up.
All of this would leave the Stank taking a pot shot at a some white lions.
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I think buildings stop cannon balls.
Correct.
BEB p. 112:
If the cannonball bounces into impassable terrain that would, in reality, stand in the way of the shot, such as a sheer cliff, it stops immediately.
BRB p. 125: For the most part, buildings act as impassable terrain (the rules for which were given earlier in this chapter). That said, we do allow units to enter buildings and 'garrison' them.
As was pointed out in another thread. there is a loophole in the rules that allows the ball to go through a building before the bounce. Not soemthing I would contemplate, though.
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I don't think we want DG2 to charge, I'd prefer to have knight2 reach and overrun into the frosty ensuring he is locked up in their turn and hopefully back down to a 5+ ward.
Agreed. Not that the kind of ward matters when we get 3-4 attacks hitting on 2's and wounding on 6's and after its armour save.
Could we send knight3 at the middle frosty to open a path for DG3 to assault the building....surely they would mince the L4 mage.
Surely they would lose badly and run. Three S3 guys don't kill anything. Don't get so hung up about assaulting the building with Knights. It is an option but still...they're all unlikely to kill even the L1, we couldn't shoot at it either and they're not locked in combat. Causing a break test is fine but we can do that with the cannon, too. I'm fine with a charge at FH 2. We're probably throwing our Knights away but you never know. If we fail and he does charge, we just flee.
It looks like DG1 might actually catch the reavers which will let us reform! It also gives the lions and helms a chance to combo charge it. We need to use either knight1 or lance capt to block the lions up.
The Lions might not be able to see him, HHG could you check that? If so, I suggest we flee from an SH charge.
Get the Lance Captain out of any charge arcs behind their lines.
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Could we send knight3 at the middle frosty to open a path for DG3 to assault the building....surely they would mince the L4 mage.
Surely they would lose badly and run. Three S3 guys don't kill anything. Don't get so hung up about assaulting the building with Knights. It is an option but still...they're all unlikely to kill even the L1, we couldn't shoot at it either and they're not locked in combat. Causing a break test is fine but we can do that with the cannon, too. I'm fine with a charge at FH 2. We're probably throwing our Knights away but you never know. If we fail and he does charge, we just flee.
But the Demi's get to fight and even get their stomps, they just can't garrison the tower.
I'm keen to assault the building as the archers are now small enough that the Mage has to be in the fight and up to 5 models can attack him...more than our units would normally get. Even if we lose they can't chase us down. If they live and fail stubborn they are running for the back edge through more of their units.
To keep the Demi's safe from a counter attack we just need to protect them with the sacrifice of a captasus.
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Why not let K1 charge frostie and tie up the WL behind. Let the other WL and SH charge the Demis... its only 3 now anyway and not worth anymore than the other 2 units... That'll put the SH and WL to the east side while our troops can try to capture the west side and destroy the wizards in the tower...
If the captain assaults the tower, surely the frostheart will try to come to the rescue? That may open it up for a steam tank charge or demis?
Lets be sure to move our wizard away from Frosty so he can't be charged.
ps: Did the archer unit take a panic test for losing 5 models? Should they even?
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But the Demi's get to fight and even get their stomps
I was under the impression that cavalry has to dismount to charge a building and that MC follows cavalry rules. Don't tell me your horse doesn't fit through the door but a DG does!
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What LSP says. BRB p. 83:
Nevertheless, we do allow cavalry models to assault buildings (as covered in the Battlefield Terrain chapter on page 126). We assume that the riders tether their mounts a short way from the fight before charging home on foot — accordingly, the mounts cannot fight, only the riders (and clearly the riders will not receive any armour save bonus from their mount during the fight!). Obviously, should the assault successfully drive the defender out of the building, the cavalry models cannot garrison the structure in their place.
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I think buildings stop cannon balls.
Correct.
BEB p. 112:
If the cannonball bounces into impassable terrain that would, in reality, stand in the way of the shot, such as a sheer cliff, it stops immediately.
BRB p. 125: For the most part, buildings act as impassable terrain (the rules for which were given earlier in this chapter). That said, we do allow units to enter buildings and 'garrison' them.
As was pointed out in another thread. there is a loophole in the rules that allows the ball to go through a building before the bounce. Not soemthing I would contemplate, though.
The example they give for a template weapon damaging units in a building on page 127.....is a cannonball.
At least it damages the unit inside- I can buy the rationale that it doesn't pass through, but they should have clearly stated it.
So I guess the angle of the STank doesn't matter very much if the shot doesn't come out the other side.
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The Lions might not be able to see him, HHG could you check that? If so, I suggest we flee from an SH charge.
This is true- if the Demi catch Reaver one, they will be out of the White Lions LOS. Just confirmed.
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The example they give for a template weapon damaging units in a building on page 127.....is a cannonball.
At least it damages the unit inside- I can buy the rationale that it doesn't pass through, but they should have clearly stated it.
The two are not conflicting. The cannon ball stops immediately, but, just like in the case of a misfire, a model (or in this case the building) under the spot where the cannonball comes to rest is hit.
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Remember when I said those fleeing WL were going to be a pain in the butt? Imagine how isolated those Mages would be if they weren't there?
Plan is to nuke the Tower and pin them, everything else is secondary IMO. Start thinking like that.
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Declare all three Knight charges you listed. Have the 14 go first (if he makes it) and have the 16 fail and stay away fro WL.
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What LSP says. BRB p. 83:
Nevertheless, we do allow cavalry models to assault buildings (as covered in the Battlefield Terrain chapter on page 126). We assume that the riders tether their mounts a short way from the fight before charging home on foot — accordingly, the mounts cannot fight, only the riders (and clearly the riders will not receive any armour save bonus from their mount during the fight!). Obviously, should the assault successfully drive the defender out of the building, the cavalry models cannot garrison the structure in their place.
Wow you learn something new in these games all the time.
I have always just referred to page 128 we's bigger than them rule which says mountstrous beasts/infantry/cavalry out as 3 models in the fight.
In that case why would we assault the building then :)
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Wow you learn something new in these games all the time.
I have always just referred to page 128 we's bigger than them rule which says mountstrous beasts/infantry/cavalry out as 3 models in the fight.
In that case why would we assault the building then :)
Well maybe with 6 Knights on foot next turn if we can keep him pinned in the Tower this turn. Let's see.
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One change- General Fandir woke up this morning and was not comfortable with his team's decision to hold with the west Reavers. They are now going to flee- working that up now.
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That changes a lot. With the right secondary charge on them they could be forced off the board.
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Or a bunch of wacky failed Panic checks.....
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If a captasus assaults a building and gets of his pegasus to attack and gets 2 unsaved wound... does he die? or is he still a captasus with three wounds... the situation just got me thinking about this...
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Yes, he dies. A good unit to charge a building with are Trolls, or Chaos Warriors but I don't think we invited any of those to the party. :icon_biggrin: 6 3+ AS Knights should be able to defeat a lone Mage or 2-3 archers in there though, even without lances and killer horses. Even they might not kill them all though.
Might give the Lance Captain something useful to do. Looks like they would go through the FH and the WL (I don't think they'd fit inbetween even with a perfect roll). Let him charge them again.
Kgt 1 -> central FH
Kgt 2 -> Reavers
DG 1 -> Reavers
Sword Captain -> Bolter
Lance Captain -> fleeing Reavers
I don't see any other good charges.
Remember when I said those fleeing WL were going to be a pain in the butt? Imagine how isolated those Mages would be if they weren't there?
Well, what can they do? The tower is in the way, they can't go through, and there's little in front or to their right either. They cannot properly support the archers really. Holds especially true if we chose to charge and manage to hold up the central FH.
Anyway, I agree. Shoot the tower. He's got so few guys left, he might have to distribute hits on his mages, and with d6 wounds... :-D
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Remember when I said those fleeing WL were going to be a pain in the butt? Imagine how isolated those Mages would be if they weren't there?
Well, what can they do? The tower is in the way, they can't go through, and there's little in front or to their right either.
New bunker for the Mages? That's what I don't want to happen.
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Oh, of course. However, that's at least a bit contraproductive because what do you want to do with the unit? Get into a brawl and make the point of being a bunker moot or stay back and keep a good combat unit out of action? I'm pretty sure they could have hopped in there anyways.
So...are we done charging?
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Just to verify what has happened so far
--STank fires up 5 Steam, no issues.
--Demi1 declares a charge against Reaver 2. They flee 7 inches away. Pass DT tests.
--Knight2 declares a charge against Reaver 1. They flee.
--Sword Captasus declares a charge against EBT1 (the Reavers didn't reach his LOS for the Noght's Captasus push-plan)
Assuming KGT2 can is within range, we should redirect to FH1. Probably need a 12, but they're going to fail their charge anyway.
KGT3 should charge FH1. If RVR1 is in line of sight, charge them first then redirect to FH1.
Steam tank spend 2 steam points to move towards the tower. 1 steam point to cannon, 2 to template.
Depending on the distance between WL2 and DG1 (and DG1 and RVR2), we may want to charge the KGT1 into FH2. KGT1 is in a bad position and needs to get out of it. Either they charge or move to slow down/redirect WL2.
Otherwise, I think we need to leave the east flank alone. Let them come to us. If KGT1 charges the frost phoenix, maybe sacrifice the Lance Captain to divert the White Lions.
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Okay.
The change in plan back fired on the HE.
Reavers fled only 5 inches, bouncing over the Frostie and ending in the water- which turns out to be a boiling flood.
The Frostie fails its panic test and flees 9 inches. Don't have access to my book atm- is this flee direction the same direction as the Reavers? Or away from the nearest enemy unit?
Once we get this straightened out, you can take a fresh look at additional charges, pushing units off the board, etc.
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The Frostie fails its panic test and flees 9 inches. Don't have access to my book atm- is this flee direction the same direction as the Reavers? Or away from the nearest enemy unit?
p. 63:
"If a unit fails a Panic test:
Brought about by heavy casualties...
Brought about by any other reason. Pivot the unit on the spot (ignoring other units) so that it is facing directly away from the closest enemy unit, and then flees as described on page 25."
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Wow, talk about nobody failing any Ld tests this edition.
The Captasus probably can't see the FH, can he see the Reavers?
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Capt have a pretty narrow LOS- he can't see the Reavers, but Knight3 can.
The Frostie flees away from the Captasus...meaning he goes southeast of the forest.
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Capt have a pretty narrow LOS- he can't see the Reavers, but Knight3 can.
The Frostie flees away from the Captasus...meaning he goes southeast of the forest.
LOS from K2?
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Capt have a pretty narrow LOS- he can't see the Reavers, but Knight3 can.
The Frostie flees away from the Captasus...meaning he goes southeast of the forest.
LOS from K2?
Yes- just not sure of the distance.
Until I get home, you could probably use the old BC file you have to move units and check.
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I´d attack the tower with a Captasus. With Savage Beast he´s gonna do some real damage, or at least force them to throw a lot of DD his way helping us get other spells through.
Don´t forget to bring our wizard around to the other flank where he´ll be a bit safer, but be sure he´s in a good position for his spells. 12" from the Captasus going after the tower, but staying away from possible Frostheart charges.
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If the captain assaults the tower they will probably use the scroll for dispelling and challenge him with the lvl 1... Next turn the lvl4 will jump to the WL....
still that gives us the lvl2... not too bad... I don't think shooting will do so much more...
and who knows: maybe the archers flee from the tower... seeing how the elves roll their panic tests that could well be the end of the game right there :engel:
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I´d attack the tower with a Captasus. With Savage Beast he´s gonna do some real damage, or at least force them to throw a lot of DD his way helping us get other spells through.
If we charge the tower we can't hit it with the steam tank. Steam tank will do d6 hits with the cannon and d6 with the steam gun (S3). That should translate to about 5 dead archers, more than we can expect from the Captasus.
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I will run all the charges when I get home here in a few hours.
Knight2 will redirect to Frostie if in range (they can't reach the Reavers now anyway)
Knight 1 and 3 will both declare charges against the other Frostie. You will want knight3 to make if it can because it has the standard.
Once it is all done, I will post a graph and you can work the rest of your movement. I will send the BC file to Noght and George so they can play.
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Dicelog seems to want to go low on charge rolls, high on magic and leadership tests.
Sword Captasus gets a 3,2,1 charging the EBT. Failed charge. Goes forward 3 inches.
Demi1 gets 6,2,1 against the Reavers. Failed charge. Goes forward 6 inches.
Knight 1 makes a successful charge against Frostie2. Knight 3 can't complete a charge with K1 in the way, so moves forward 2 inches on a failed charge.
Knight 2 moves forward 5 inches on a failed charge against the Reavers who are now out of range.
The STank doesn't want to cooperate with your Tower plan. Needs 6 inches to have the template reach the building, only gets 3 inches on 2 Steam. I will let you pick the angle, but it needs to be headed towards the tower.
I will send the file to Noght and George here in a sec. I am sure they wouldn't mind some input.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT2Working_zps24254aea.jpg)
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Knight 2 moves forward 5 inches on a failed charge against the Reavers who are now out of range.
Re direct into Phoenix and run him off the board!!!! Failure is fine, make the re-direct roll.
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Knight 2 moves forward 5 inches on a failed charge against the Reavers who are now out of range.
Re direct into Phoenix and run him off the board!!!! Failure is fine, make the re-direct roll.
Sorry Noght- the Frostie was outside their max charge range of 19 inches to declare a legal charge... (I know it doesn't look like it now because they have already moved forward 5 inches)
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Knight 2 moves forward 5 inches on a failed charge against the Reavers who are now out of range.
Re direct into Phoenix and run him off the board!!!! Failure is fine, make the re-direct roll.
Sorry Noght- the Frostie was outside their max charge range of 19 inches to declare a legal charge... (I know it doesn't look like it now because they have already moved forward 5 inches)
Ah, no worries. That's what we get for being a bit timid last turn....
Rules check for Amber Spear into the Tower? Same as a Bolt thrower?
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Yes, which means it will inflicts a single Strength 6 hit with Multiple Wounds (D3) on a target that is in hard cover.
BRB p. 127:
Naturally, we assume that the building itself provides a certain amount of protection, so we treat the garrison as being in hard cover — shots are otherwise resolved normally. Note that the garrison unit is considered to be too spread out to be affected normally by attacks that can affect multiple ranks, such as bolt throwers — shooting attacks of this nature will only hit one model.
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Some questions:
Distance for WL2 to DG1?
Are KGT1 in WL2 front arc?
Can WL1 charge KGT1?
Distance from SH to Sword Captasus?
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Depending on the distance between WL1 and DG1, we might want to put the wizard in the way of the White Lions so that he will bounce over the Demigryphs if he flees. Ditto for the Lance Captain and WL1.
Or maybe just move the wizard lord WSW to buff the rest of our units and get out of range of the Eagle BT.
DG2, DG3, and KGT4 need to move up along the west flank. Maybe set up a combo-charge on FH1 since he won't be able to move next turn. RVR1 will only get a normal move (7") after their reform, so they shouldn't be too much of an annoyance this turn.
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Distance for WL2 to DG1?
Over 9 inches away
Are KGT1 in WL2 front arc?
Nope. Just misses em.
Can WL1 charge KGT1?
Nope- no way to make that wheel.
Distance from SH to Sword Captasus?
Over 13 inches away
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RVR1 will only get a normal move (7") after their reform, so they shouldn't be too much of an annoyance this turn.
If they live- all 3 are receiving a Str4 Flaming hit no AS from the Boiling Flood at the end of the turn...
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The graph you sent me and George looked good, maybe put the OTS Capt behind the WL on the off chance the Phoenix loses combat and runs, he might bounce off the board without pursing. Long shot I know.
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The graph you sent me and George looked good, maybe put the OTS Capt behind the WL on the off chance the Phoenix loses combat and runs, he might bounce off the board without pursing. Long shot I know.
Also, the Reavers might get destroyed by the Boiling Flood- which would cause another Panic test on the Lions...
However, in either case, they will flee from the closest enemy unit which is now the Capt. I think he is in a good spot atm- the Lions will bounce right into the teeth of the west Demis.
Getting ready to post the graph.
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Okay- in consultation with Noght and George, here is what we have.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT2Final_zpsa01350f7.jpg)
Key points:
--Wiz moves to safe spot
--BSB moves to cover Knight/Frostie combat
--There is nowhere for their Wizards to flee out of the tower
--White Lion1 is boxed in
--Frostie 1 will get a Demi in his face if he rallies.
Demis in the forest don't have to roll DT, they did not march. Captasus makes his leadership test to run (fly far!)
Empire T2 Magic Phase:
Empire gets a 5&1 for Winds. No channels.
6PD to 5DD.
What do you want to cast?
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The only spell that we really want is Flock on the Tower. Hmmm.
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The only spell that we really want is Flock on the Tower. Hmmm.
Start with a 4 dice Wildform and 2 dice Flock and call it a day?
Or a 2 dice Wildform and 4 dice Flock? :unsure:
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edit: 4 dice wildform, 2 flock
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4 dice wildform sounds fine by me HHG. Hopefully it pulls out their 5 dice.
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Empire starts with a 4 dice Wildform on Knight1. Get 11+4=15.
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3 dice dispel gets 14+4=18. Dispelled.
Last 2 dice are on a Flock of Doom on the Tower: 5+2=7. Last 3 dispel dice easily dispel it.
Empire T2 Shooting Phase:
The Empire shooting phase is worse than their magic phase.
Engie shoots his Pistol to no effect.
STank misfires and wounds itself for 3 wounds.
Empire T2 Combat Phase:
Knights pass fail their first Terror test, pass the reroll.
Knights and horses fail to wound the gigantic icecone.
The Frostie gets 3 hits, 2 wounds, Knights make 1 AS. 1 Knight dies.
Tied combat. Knights have a musician.
For the third time in a row, HE rolls a 10 for a leadership test. Frostie breaks and runs.
Archers and White Lions pass their resulting Panic tests.
Frostie runs 9, Knights catch him on a 9. Knights hit the White Lions- combat next turn.
Empire End of Turn:
The Reavers take 3 Str 4 Flaming hits no AS from the Boiling Flood. 2 Reavers die. They can only rally on double 1s.
End of turn graph:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT2Wrapup_zps283053de.jpg)
What a crazy turn. Empire was having the worst turn ever...until the very end. Things are getting interesting....
:::cheers:::
HHG
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White Lion 2 is declaring a charge against DG1. I assume you are going to flee...no chance of going off the board.
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Demis flee but only go 3 inches away.
White Lions only need a 9 to catch them- but roll a 3,2. They go forward 3 inches on a failed charge.
Reaver 2 rallies. Reaver 1 does not, flee straight ahead over the Knights. Passes DT.
Frostie rallies.
HE working the rest of their movement phase.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET2Start2_zpsaa7f5f74.jpg)
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3 dice dispel gets 14+4=18. Dispelled.
Last 2 dice are on a Flock of Doom on the Tower: 5+2=7. Last 3 dispel dice easily dispel it.
How did they end up with 6 dd? typo?
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3 dice dispel gets 14+4=18. Dispelled.
Last 2 dice are on a Flock of Doom on the Tower: 5+2=7. Last 3 dispel dice easily dispel it.
How did they end up with 6 dd? typo?
Yep. I will go back and fix it. They got it with 2 dice.
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(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET2Poss_zps1bbeb7f3.jpg)
Reavers pass DT tests.
HE T2 Magic Phase:
HE rolls a 4&1 for Winds. No channels.
The first cast a 1 die Ring blast on the Wiz Lord. It fails to go off on a 1.
Next, they 1 die a Miasma on the Stank for Init. They get a 5+4=9.
Dispel response?
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Dispel Pit with all dice.
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Dispel Pit with all dice.
I figured- I just wanted to check.
It reduces the STank Init by one.
The 3 dice Pit comes out high- 12+4=16.
Do you want to throw the DD at it, or play it safe and burn the scroll?
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76% chance of dispelling. If we fail, there's a 66% chance of tank biting it.
Total ~86% chance of tank surviving if we toss 4 dice. 100% if we scroll.
I say dice.
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76% chance of dispelling. If we fail, there's a 66% chance of tank biting it.
Total ~86% chance of tank surviving if we toss 4 dice. 100% if we scroll.
I say dice.
Roger.
On 4 dice you get 8+4=12. Spell goes off.
Scatters 3 inches away east. Just clips the STank. The STank passes its I test on a 2.
High Elf Shooting:
EBT hits the Captasus staring it down, and wounds him. Captasus dead.
Archers shoot at the Wiz Lord. Get 4 hits, 3 wounds, but the Wiz makes all his Ward saves.
High Elf Combat:
White Lions hit with 8 of out 10 attacks, wound with all 8. Poor Knights only make 1 AS. Knight 1 dies. White Lions keep their facing.
The nearby Captasus makes his Panic test.
End of turn graph:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET2Final2_zps4182f1d3.jpg)
Empire is up for T3. Give me STank steam and charges.
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Whoa, that was close. What's the current bonus for the Frostheart?
Some late comments, not that it matters much:
Knights pass fail their first Terror test, pass the reroll.
Knights and horses fail to wound the gigantic icecone.
It's a fear test since we charged. Also the sequence should be reversed since the Knights were ASL.
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Whoa, that was close. What's the current bonus for the Frostheart?
Some late comments, not that it matters much:
Knights pass fail their first Terror test, pass the reroll.
Knights and horses fail to wound the gigantic icecone.
It's a fear test since we charged. Also the sequence should be reversed since the Knights were ASL.
I usually write Terror...but yes, it is ultimately a Fear test.
Roger on the ASL, I will make sure and put it in the proper order next time.
Frostie is +1 attack at the moment.
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No worries, just saying.
What's the distance from K2 & DG 2 to FH? I would charge both at it and try a Wyssan's.
K 3 could charge the Reavers, followed up by DG 3, although that isn't strictly necessary. Better to conserve them than to risk a double charge - and SH are fast.
Lance Captain should try to get the Bolter while staying behind the wood and out of charge arc of the WL.
I'm for 4 Steam Points. Aim the Stank towards the tower. 2 move, 1 cannon, 1 steam gun at the tower.
What do you think?
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No worries, just saying.
What's the distance from K2 & DG 2 to FH? I would charge both at it and try a Wyssan's.
K 3 could charge the Reavers, followed up by DG 3, although that isn't strictly necessary. Better to conserve them than to risk a double charge - and SH are fast.
Lance Captain should try to get the Bolter while staying behind the wood and out of charge arc of the WL.
I'm for 4 Steam Points. Aim the Stank towards the tower. 2 move, 1 cannon, 1 steam gun at the tower.
What do you think?
I like it. Let me peek. Sorry move in day for College....
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DGK is 14 inches to Frostie.
Knight2 is 16 inches to Frostie.
What charges do you want Noght?
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We have chance at white lion 1. We could charge with Demi's 2 in one flank and stop them reforming by charging with lance capt. In the other. We'd also want knight 2 to make its charge on the frostie to protect the Demi's flank.
Demi's 3 could charge the reavers and just fail charge if they run. We could then setup a killing zone with knight1, and the rallied demi1.
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Demi's 3 could charge the reavers and just fail charge if they run. We could then setup a killing zone with knight1, and the rallied demi1.
and take silverhelms to the face.
we could also redirect towards the tower and fail that charge..
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We have chance at white lion 1. We could charge with Demi's 2 in one flank and stop them reforming by charging with lance capt. In the other. We'd also want knight 2 to make its charge on the frostie to protect the Demi's flank.
Demi's 3 could charge the reavers and just fail charge if they run. We could then setup a killing zone with knight1, and the rallied demi1.
I saw this too when I looked at the map- the downside is at least 1, maybe 2, of your Demis will be taking Str4 Flaming hits no AS every turn.
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We have chance at white lion 1. We could charge with Demi's 2 in one flank and stop them reforming by charging with lance capt. In the other. We'd also want knight 2 to make its charge on the frostie to protect the Demi's flank.
Demi's 3 could charge the reavers and just fail charge if they run. We could then setup a killing zone with knight1, and the rallied demi1.
Risky. Safe play might be to get the Frostie with the DGs and play keep away in the East. Hmmm.
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Range from OTS Capt to Silver Helms flank? If in Line of Sight....
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Range from OTS Capt to Silver Helms flank? If in Line of Sight....
Outside of LOS.
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Can the Knights get in the way of the WL/Helms if the DGs charge the Reavers?
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Or could the lance capt reach to block up the lions and helms?
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Or could the lance capt reach to block up the lions and helms?
Might be able to pull off a variation of the DECB because the WL would be unable to complete a front charge. Except that wont stop the Helms from charging the Big DG unit.
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Can the Knights get in the way of the WL/Helms if the DGs charge the Reavers?
Knight3 could jam the corner of the White Lions but nothing against the Helms.
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Or could the lance capt reach to block up the lions and helms?
He can't make it with 20 inches- not even to reliably block the Lions.
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Lets get some charges done....what do you want to do?
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Lets get some charges done....what do you want to do?
DG2 on Frostheart
K3 on Reaver2
Rally DG1, face SE (along Fence line, front Arc for both Helms and WL)
STank, 2 steam towards tower
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Sounds fine.
Noght has a good handle on what he wants to do...i'll just keep throwing up the crazy ideas :)
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STank 4 Steam, no issues.
Successful charge by DG2 and Knight3.
I assume no other charges.
Demis rally.
2 Steam gets 6 inches for the STank.
Here is what you have so far:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT3Charges_zps7098320d.jpg)
I will send Noght and George the file.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Here's my thoughts for the rest of movement
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/warlordsteve/TTEmpT3ChargesG_Turn_3_Beast_Masters_zps18941933.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/warlordsteve/media/TTEmpT3ChargesG_Turn_3_Beast_Masters_zps18941933.jpg.html)
DG3 to shuffle sideways.
KNight 3 to reform 2 wide after winning combat to give DG3 an avenue
BSB to join DG3. This was the only way I could get him safely in range of DG1 to help with a break test. DG3 should be on maximum range for the SH to charge
DG1 reform on a different angle to provide flank charges for DG3 if they hold.
KNight4 to move up to threaten and make it difficult fot the lions to find a facing.
Wiz Lord to move to get a shot with amber spear at the helms. This is risky as the bolt thrower could see him, so I'm not sure on this.
Lance Capt to sacrifice himself to keep the other lions away for another turn. If they decide to turn and support frostie instead the capt should be able to flank charge frosty and get the OTS shard in to help the demis.
KNights 2 just advanced their max to keep the lions below the tower thinking.
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I don't like wasting the Captain there. He should really threaten the boltthrower so they feel compelled not to shoot at Demis, or it dies if they do.
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Hmm, we could avoid WL2 and the SH by backing up a bit with everything on that flank except DG1, who move past the SH to charge EB1 next turn.
I´d hate to throw our Captasus away as well, rather move it so it can hit the Frostie´s flank next turn? WL 1 isn´t really in a position to do much of anything right now anyway.
I´d angle the Kgt2 slightly so they could charge the phoenix next turn in case our Demis get eaten.
Man, we could really use a good magic/shooting phase right now...
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Hmm, we could avoid WL2 and the SH by backing up a bit with everything on that flank except DG1, who move past the SH to charge EB1 next turn.
I´d hate to throw our Captasus away as well, rather move it so it can hit the Frostie´s flank next turn? WL 1 isn´t really in a position to do much of anything right now anyway.
I´d angle the Kgt2 slightly so they could charge the phoenix next turn in case our Demis get eaten.
Man, we could really use a good magic/shooting phase right now...
I'd like to dogpile the Phoenix with Knights and OTS Capt in the flank next turn also. Lemme play around.
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You could also think about engaging the WL1 to make sure the wizards dont jump ship... With the wizards gone, things become so much easier! Knights2 could play a role also...
How are the chances of DG2 against frostie on their own?
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You could also think about engaging the WL1 to make sure the wizards dont jump ship... With the wizards gone, things become so much easier! Knights2 could play a role also...
How are the chances of DG2 against frostie on their own?
The Wizards can leave the tower, but they can't immediately join a new unit (Fidelis confirmed).
So it isn't necessary for you to tie up the White Lions this turn.
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You could also think about engaging the WL1 to make sure the wizards dont jump ship... With the wizards gone, things become so much easier! Knights2 could play a role also...
How are the chances of DG2 against frostie on their own?
Wizards can't leave the Tower and jump to the WL the same turn. So we just need to make sure if they leave, there is a unit(s) to charge them.
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I apologize- Reaver decisions are biting me in the ass again.
Fandir woke up this morning and wants to flee with the Reavers- since he is the General I am going to oblige him.
The Reavers flee 9 inches, bounce over Demi1 and the fence and lose a model to DT.
Knight3 will just swing towards the center 3 inches on a failed charge.
Of course- if you want to declare additional charges with Demi3 that is fine. Demi3 could push the Reavers to the east but can't force them off the board. Helms are too far away- 17 inches to the White Lions, but it would be in their front.
Let me know. I want to keep this game moving!
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Hmm. I might be inclined to back up with the DG3 then, make it an insane charge for the Helms.
Range of WL to DG1, SH to DG1? I may be inclined to face DG1 so any pursuit or overrun goes toward NE corner.
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Hmm. I might be inclined to back up with the DG3 then, make it an insane charge for the Helms.
Range of WL to DG1, SH to DG1? I may be inclined to face DG1 so any pursuit or overrun goes toward NE corner.
DG3 just has to move about .05 of an inch and he is out of max charge range of both- it is right at the edge of 21 inches from the Helms at the moment.
White Lion 2 needs 14 inches on Demi1, 11 inches for the Helms- they will automatically make it if you don't flee.
Here is what is looks like with the failed charge factored in:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT3Temp_zpsbab30418.jpg)
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That Reavers flee is going to save the DG1 maybe. So reform after successful rally so the front arc is where the Reavers are occupying. Might only be able to get one file of guys in. Of course the CR might smoke us anyway.....
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Maybe something like this:
BSB, Knights (3x3 now) and OTS Capt have the Tower covered if Wiz escapes (assume he will with our dice). Assuming Steam Gun hits tower?
OTS Capt and Knights can flank charge Phoenix
Bolter needs -3 to hit Wiz, -1 to Hit Capt.
Hold charge vs WL, flee from Helms, hope to roll 8-9 to flee and that the SH roll low, otherwise we get caught, if so, DG3 has SH flank.
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1976/s4nj.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/s4nj.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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Alright Noght, I think we are finally there.
Knight4 failed a swift reform and the reroll. They are faced so the Lvl1 is exactly 24 inches away from the Demis against the Frostie in case you go for a double Wildform.
Knight2 couldn't get as far as you had them on the graph due to the wheels. They are in the Frostie's flank like you wanted though.
The OTS Captasus has LOS to the Frostie and the east side of the tower like you wanted.
STank has easy Steam Gun template on the tower.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT3Final_zps1cf18a67.jpg)
Empire T3 Magic Phase:
You got a 6&3. No channels.
9PD to 6DD.
What do you want to cast first?
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Question to the Team? More important for Wildform on DGs or Flock on Archers?
Thinking: 2PD Wildform (level 4), 3PD Wildform (level 2), 2-4 dice Flock. Thought is you want less than 5 RnF Archers and the Mage Lord has an item that ignores the first hit right? So we want the Steam Gun to peel that before the Cannon D6 wounds.
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Good thinking, go ahead I say.
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+1 to the above
I've been missing out on quite a bit but it seems to go well so far :biggriin: let's hope I'm not too much of a jinx...
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Wow. Nice roll.
2 dice Wildform on Demi2 from the Lvl4 gets 11+4=15.
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Sounds good Noght. :::cheers:::
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3 dice dispel gets 12+4=16. Dispelled.
7PD to 3DD
3 dice Wildform gets 13+2=15.
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HE use their last 3DD on it.
They get a 5,4,1. They reroll the 1 and get another 1. 10+4=14. Spell goes off.
With no magic defense except the scroll- do you want to split the 4 dice now? Flock...and Pann Pelt or Spear?
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maybe save 1 dice for spear, i don't think we would get much from pelt.
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maybe save 1 dice for spear, i don't think we would get much from pelt.
T7 on the OTS Capt facing a EBT bolt?
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Indeed - 2 on Flock, 2 on Pelt on the Lance Captain.
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maybe save 1 dice for spear, i don't think we would get much from pelt.
T7 on the OTS Capt facing a EBT bolt?
Wouldn't they shoot the L4 instead? Or is EBT unable to move and fire?
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Could hč cast spear on the egale claw or is that out of range?
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maybe save 1 dice for spear, i don't think we would get much from pelt.
T7 on the OTS Capt facing a EBT bolt?
Wouldn't they shoot the L4 instead? Or is EBT unable to move and fire?
Like Noght posted, the Wiz has cover from the OTS Capt. They need a 5+ to hit the OTS Capt (-1 range, -1 wood) but they would need a 7+ to hit the Wiz Lord (-1 range, -1 wood, -2 hard cover)
Could hč cast spear on the egale claw or is that out of range?
Outside the Wizards LOS.
-----------------------------
I am going to go ahead and press on the Flock and see what the HE do.
A 2 dice Flock gets 8+2=10.
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HE let Flock go.
It gets 7 hits, 3 wounds. 3 Archers die. Archers make their Panic test.
Next, you cast a Pelt on the OTS Capt and get 11+4=15.
HE let it go as well.
Empire T3 Shooting Phase:
The STank uses 1 Steam on its Steam Gun on the Tower, Str 2, getting 2 hits, 2 wounds. 2 Archers die. 2 remain with the Mages. They make their Panic test (different phase)
Last the STank fires a cannonball into the tower. Gets a 6 on the first roll and nails it, also getting 6 hits on the poor pointy-ears inside it.
Since there are less than 5 RnF, hits are allocated as per shooting. Obviously, HE puts the extra two hits on the Archers.
Both Archers die, the unit is gone. The Lvl2 Mage is wounded, taking 6 wounds. Lvl 2 Mage dies.
The Lvl4 Mage is wounded, but is saved by his Crown Ward save. He is all that remains in the tower.
White Lions pass their Panic test due to the Archers being destroyed.
Empire T3 Combat Phase:
The Demis fail their first Fear test, pass the reroll.
The Frostie only hits with 1 of its 5 attacks, wounding but not getting past the Demis' AS.
The Demis hit back- hitting with 6, wounding with 4 (+1 Str/-1 Str, needing 5s), no Ward saves. Frostie takes 4 wounds.
The Riders manage to get 1 unsaved wound as well. Frostie dies.
I will need to confirm with the Empire team on the Demi's facing- but for now am pointing it straight east.
End of turn graph:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT3Wrapup_zps5c1f01d6.jpg)
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Ouch. That turn really put a hurtin' on the pointy ears.
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That was a pretty amazing turn for Empire.
The mage should stay in the tower, unless he can sneak out and get screened by the White Lions somehow.
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In a tourney setting I think you'd now be fleeing and backing off....though playonwords and I play tournies with 20-0 scoring systems that reward big wins.
We have the difficulty that we won't be able to isolate either the helms or lions and we don't have the ranks to hold them in place.
Our best chance to split them is by holding to the helms, manage to pass our break test so the other demis can hit the flank.
We certainly can't hold if both units charge.
If we hold and get run off then the helms ad lions could also be cose enough to make backing off get awkward as they'll be a lot closer.
Maybe our best chance to grab more points is to flee the charge now and hope we can get the tank to pin one unit for long enough to isolate the other?
If I were the HE this turn I would consider backing the reavers in to rally (with BSB reroll) and use them to divert DG1 while I pushed as far as I could toward DG3 and knight 3. Based on the position of knight3 and the Stank I think it maybe possible for the lions to avoid being hit be a STank charge.
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That was a pretty amazing turn for Empire.
The mage should stay in the tower, unless he can sneak out and get screened by the White Lions somehow.
Empire just got their stroke of bad luck at the beginning of the HE turn.
The Silver Helms declared a charge against the Demis who flee according to Noght's plan. Unfortunately, they get boxcars and go off the table.
The Helms redirect to Knight3. Taking no chances, Knight3 flees as well 9 inches bouncing over the STank.
The Helms wheel forward 6 inches on a failed charge. They pass their DT tests.
The lone Reaver 1 fails to rally and blazes 12 inches towards the table edge.
Reaver 2 rallies.
Here is where it is at the moment.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET3Charge_zps536981e1.jpg)
HE wants to move the Mage out of the Tower into the White Lions if they move up. I sensed this possibly coming up, so I asked Fidelis the rules legality of it.
Here is what he said:
BRB p. 127 (updated to BRB Official Update Version 1.8):
A garrison unit can exit a building in their Remaining Moves sub-phase, though not in the same turn that it garrisoned the structure. Place the unit in any desired formation, with at least one model of the rear rank 1" away from the building and no model within 1" of the building. No model in the unit may be placed more than twice its normal Movement distance from the building. The unit may not move any further in a turn that it exits a building — it's too busy reordering its battle formation. This is the only way a garrison can voluntarily leave a building — it cannot charge out of a building, for example.
There are two ways of looking at it:
1. If the character joins another unit, they are treated as a single combined unit - thus the requirement that the unit abandoning the building stays within 1"of the building is not fulfilled, as that unit as such no longer exists.
2. You treat it in a similar way as a character leaving a unit, who can joing another unit in the same move.
All in all, I think it is not allowed (unless someone can find another argument)
1. The original version did not allow it: the change was made to adhere to the 1 "rule (for clarity).
2. Warhammer is a permissive system. While it specifies that a character leaving a unit can join another unit, there is no such specification for a building, and a building, after all is not a unit.
---------------------------------------------------
I am willing to entertain arguments either way. Fidelis is my rules arbiter for TDGs/TEGs- HE will have to find a pretty compelling argument!
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I don't think you can join a unit and exit the tower the same turn. Now if the WL were close enough to Garrison that's differant but they aren't.
We play keep away, burn the Scroll, charge the Tower with 6 Knights and win this thing.....
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I agree that the mage can't join a unit.
The mage is a unit in a building and as such must spend its turn moving out and must keep at 1" from the building and may not move further this turn.
I would argue that moving into a unit is a separate move, even if the desired unit is exactly 1" from the building itself....and the leaving the building rules say they cannot move any further.
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I agree that the mage can't join a unit.
The mage is a unit in a building and as such must spend its turn moving out and must keep at 1" from the building and may not move further this turn.
I would argue that moving into a unit is a separate move, even if the desired unit is exactly 1" from the building itself....and the leaving the building rules say they cannot move any further.
This is way we are going to play it.
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White Lions 1 fail a roll to march.
White Lions 2 make a swift reform roll.
Mage leave the building (note- the Pegs won't be able to charge him because they can't fit into the gap....)
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET3Final4_zpseab714d9.jpg)
HE T3 Winds of Magic:
You get a 4&1 for Winds. 1 HE channel.
6PD to 4DD.
HE starts with a 2 dice Miasma for I on the STank. Get 10+4=14.
What is your dispel response?
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Mage leave the building (note- the Pegs won't be able to charge him because they can't fit into the gap....)
Not true. The OTS Capt. has a Rear charge. He can touch corners if he can't fit, the Mage closes the door to him, if not squared up. At least that's how it looks.
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Let Miasma go, scroll pit.
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Let Miasma go, scroll pit.
If we're going to scroll Pit, then dispel Miasma just in case of IF.
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Mage leave the building (note- the Pegs won't be able to charge him because they can't fit into the gap....)
Not true. The OTS Capt. has a Rear charge. He can touch corners if he can't fit, the Mage closes the door to him, if not squared up. At least that's how it looks.
If it looks off in BC it is my ability in putting it in. I originally posted a pic with him facing away from the tower and of course they wanted him facing the tower so he can hit the STank with pit.
I adjusted the graph again to get him just right. As you can see, they have him protected.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET3Snapshot2_zps7959255a.jpg)
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You throw all 4 dice at the dispel and easily get it.
HE throws a 4 dice Pit on the STank and gets 6,5,1,1. They reroll a 1 and get another 1.
You use your dispel scroll.
HE Shooting Phase:
EBT fires a bolt at the STank. Hits, wounds, and only causes 1 wounds. STank has 6 remaining.
No combat. You are up again. Give me some charges! (Let me know if you need any ranges)
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Sorry for the lack of responses on my part guys. Been on holiday. Seems like the empire is doing well though. Only just skimmed from where I left off, so my only responses for now is:
Mage leave the building (note- the Pegs won't be able to charge him because they can't fit into the gap....)
Not true. The OTS Capt. has a Rear charge. He can touch corners if he can't fit, the Mage closes the door to him, if not squared up. At least that's how it looks.
The Mage still looks like a valid charge from the southern most captainsus, as it seems from even the current image that he is in the mages rear arc. If he was rotated to the left then maybe it then would be invalid.
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EBT fires a bolt at the STank. Hits, wounds, and only causes 1 wounds. STank has 6 remaining.
Did the EBT roll a 5 or 6 to hit? Long range, -1 for woods, maybe -2 for WL (if they are in the way)?
The Mage still looks like a valid charge from the southern most captainsus, as it seems from even the current image that he is in the mages rear arc. If he was rotated to the left then maybe it then would be invalid.
This. The only way is if the Mage is "square" to the WL facing and 1" away. And if he's "square", the flank may open up. The WL failing the March roll may have messed the plan up.
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I guess the problem is we don't have LoS to the mage?
Charge the Demigryphs, BSB and Lance captain into WL1. Make sure the lance captain is on the back-right corner, as far as possible. If we can wipe out a rank of the WL, we should be able to prevent them from reforming and maintaining 5-wide (as it would take models out of base contact).
2 dice on the steam tank towards the WL. We probably won't reach them this turn and suffer a S4 hit (not a big deal). Then steam cannon the Wizard.
On the right, rally the knights, move the Demigryphs back a bit (the Reavers are screening them from SH).
Magic phase we need to get Wildform on DG2 and maybe a boosted Pelt to keep our BSB and lance captain alive. Flock on the Wizard would be gravy.
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The Mage still looks like a valid charge from the southern most captainsus, as it seems from even the current image that he is in the mages rear arc. If he was rotated to the left then maybe it then would be invalid.
The center of the front arc of the Captasus is on the left side of the red arrow. Hence, he will hit it in the flank.
The 40mm base is an inch and a half deep. You are not going to fit in there- there is a little over an inch.
The forest only counts as soft cover if the majority of the model is in it, or if the line of fire goes through it. The EBT can face the STank and draw a line of fire to it that doesn't go through the forest. Also, the STank is a large target and doesn't get hard cover modifiers for models/obstacles.
----------------------------------------
Fandir didn't like my divertion of the Reavers (I have tweaked it for him a couple of times while we kept going and I finally have it the way he wants it).
You guys are keeping me on my toes today!
Updated chart:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET3Final69_zps60f6d854.jpg)
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Is DG2 into the flank or rear of WL1.
Looks like flank to me...
I like the idea of being aggressive on that unit. If we can get a unit in front and rear they won't be able to reform to maximise their attacks.
If the lance capt though is going in on his own in the rear he will cop a fair amount of heat from 4 white lions!
Up the top I think we have committed to our tactical withdrawl....and this includes the STank as wel....I'd be aiming to move 2D6 away form the helms and lions.
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The forest only counts as soft cover if the majority of the model is in it, or if the line of fire goes through it. The EBT can face the STank and draw a line of fire to it that doesn't go through the forest. Also, the STank is a large target and doesn't get hard cover modifiers for models/obstacles.
Large Targets don't get cover from Obstacles. All other modifiers apply. If the EBT touches the forest, -1. If half of the model is covered by forest, -1. If half the model is covered by models, -2. I suspect you can draw a line without touching forest but then it draws line through WL. :icon_question:
The center of the front arc of the Captasus is on the left side of the red arrow. Hence, he will hit it in the flank.
Look at the red line, look at the grid line, look at the back corner of the the Wizard, look at the front corner of the OTS Capt. How is it possible for both models with a corner on the grid line to not line up? Weird. Not happy, I thought we had it totally covered no matter where he came out....
Meh, no worries, we might have enough to win anyway.
Is the DG a rear charge on the WL?
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Large Targets don't get cover from Obstacles. All other modifiers apply. If the EBT touches the forest, -1. If half of the model is covered by forest, -1. If half the model is covered by models, -2. I suspect you can draw a line without touching forest but then it draws line through WL. :icon_question:
I see that you are right- under the Large Target section it specifically states obstacles and gives a page number. Weird.
The shot misses. STank has 7 wounds.
Is the DG a rear charge on the WL?
It is in the flank.
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From a pure learning tactics side of the game I am happy that the mage can't be charged.
We thought we had the mage surrounded yet it was still possible for the HE to find a way out.
With the demis hitting the flank we need to decide if the Lance capt can stand up to the attacks from 4 white lions. If yes then charge, if no then we risk losing the demis if the lions can reform to face them.
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He probably would but between them being White Lions and the Boiling Flood - no AS - I don't like charging them at all.
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Dont. WL allways bring pain!!
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Well, two Captains, two Pegs and 2 Demis would kill about 8 WL and suffer about 2 wounds in return. Since those get spread around, it wouldn't kill anybody, and that's before considering Fear, the charmed shield or dawnstone effects. However, both BSB and Demis would be in the Boiling Lava. One bad roll and our BSB is gone. Since I estimate that we're leading by a little over 200 points, that could swing it right back, right there.
WL are stubborn, so are likely to stick around. However, the wizard couldn't really escape and none of his other units is in a position to help the WL out immediately.
All things considered, I would charge the WL with the Demis and the Lance Captain only and keep the BSB out of that water. Move him and K 2 to the rear of the WL - they can charge in a turn later and finish the job if we actually want to charge. Go for Pelt on the Lance Captain and Wyssans on the Demis again, or a Spear/Flock combo at the wizard.
Not charging means the WL can turn around and potentially be in a position to threaten something. I don't like them charging us either when we can get a flank charge on them.
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I agree, we have the WL isolated. We don´t want them teaming up with another HE unit, and unless we´re playing keep away (and I don´t think we have a lead big enough for that anyway) we´re going to have to tackle them sooner or later. I vote for sooner.
Move the STAnk up to enter that combat next turn, cannonball and steam the mage on the way.
For magic, we need everything we have in that WL combat. Double Wildform and Imp Belt and Savgae Beasts (in that order) if we can get it all. A 1d Flock for the mage would be nice as well. Let´s see what the winds of magic bring us this turn...
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We need to withdraw into better positions in the north. Perhaps move the little wizard out of his bunker and let those Knights help with diverting and flank charges.
The STank cannot help much in the southern combat since I assume the DG need to go into the flank. What's their distance to the WL anyways? The STank will have problems moving so that he can see and cannon the wizard. However, their scroll went with the L1, so it's "only" an L4 with Book. He's also the General, so fat points. Killing him with magic is very enticing but magic is magic. It's probably better to focus on one thing and not dilute forces, so WL first. Perhaps the Tank would be better employed by putting a cannonball through the Silverhelms.
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In communication with Noght- what does the team think of this?
--STank points towards the tower on 1 steam so he doesn't go too far. 3 Steam on a cannon against the EBT. The White Lions would have to get an 11 or 12 to get to the STank- and only a few of them could hit it in combat.
--Move back in the north out of HE charge range.
--The OTS is set up to get the EBT if the STank fails to kill it...otherwise it is in position to get behind the Helms. If two Captasus hit the Helms at the same time and the Lions can't see and support- they will jack up that unit the rest of the game if they hit it in the front and flank/rear.
--Flock the Reavers. Spear the Mage. Steal the points away....
Variations include:
--moving the Lvl2 to Flock the Mage as well
--Moving DG2 up behind the White Lions (but they may turn around with the new defense line set up)
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT4Poss2_zps70b57bba.jpg)
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So the plan is to stay away from the White Lions and maybe squeeze out a few points from Reavers and the EBT?
I didn't realize the Boiling Flood doesn't allow armor saves, that really changes my assessment. No way should we put the steam tank or knights in there.
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--STank points towards the tower on 1 steam so he doesn't go too far. 3 Steam on a cannon against the EBT. The White Lions would have to get an 11 or 12 to get to the STank- and only a few of them could hit it in combat.
11 on dice alone? That's good enough for me. I'd still like to whittle down the Lions now. The Bolter is already at long range with more and more terrain and units in between. Remember what happened to the last Captasus. Tactically, it's not worth much.
--Move back in the north out of HE charge range.
Yep.
--The OTS is set up to get the EBT if the STank fails to kill it...otherwise it is in position to get behind the Helms. If two Captasus hit the Helms at the same time and the Lions can't see and support- they will jack up that unit the rest of the game if they hit it in the front and flank/rear.
Perhaps, perhaps not...they've got 4 SCR, we've got like 1 in round 2. And the Lions could simply turn.
--Flock the Reavers. Spear the Mage. Steal the points away....
If we're not going for combat, yes.
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Maybe we can move DG towards the WL also? Otherwise they are out of the fray for some time... maybe in a way we could go around the WL should they turn around?
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Flock and Spear the Mage. We do that and we win.
We can run rings around the WL with our speed, I'd like the DG3 moving East and facing the center, we can always keep moving out of charge arcs.
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We can run rings around the WL with our speed
Not if one units comes around the southern edge or the SH catch us. Still, we can't kill those WL in one, two turns anyways, so go ahead with the alternative plan of killing the mage first. Let's hope they don't manage to pin us into some corner.
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At work at the moment- will update the map with the Demi 2 move to the east, lvl2 wiz eyes on their Lvl 4 when I get home.
Stank got 1 inch on 1 steam, pointing at the EBT.
Capt and Wiz pass leadership to fly far, and the capt passes a DT test.
To get you started thinking about spells-
6&1 for Winds. 1 HE channel.
7PD to 7DD.
How do you want to spend your dice?
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Figures. I'd be inclined to 6 dice a Flock, hoping for IF to waste the WL......
Who knows :icon_frown:
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You could three or four dice spear to draw out their dice (makes them afraid) and then flock with the remaining. Hopefully the first roll is at least average so they have to spend more dice to get a 50/50 or better chance, them BAM! flock.
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You could three or four dice spear to draw out their dice (makes them afraid) and then flock with the remaining. Hopefully the first roll is at least average so they have to spend more dice to get a 50/50 or better chance, them BAM! flock.
Approved. I'd love a slightly above average Spear.....
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Does the book allow high elves to reroll dispel dice als well? If not then all of our spells have 50 percent chance of getting through. More spells means more chances of succesful spells. So 2 spells seems superior to one...
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Yes, allright... I have a slightly above average Spear, but I am afraid this is not meant for you... You'll have to use dice to get it!
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People have to use dice to get your spear?
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The book allows a reroll for dispel as well, so statistically they will win most 2 dice offs. The more dice we use, the less effect the reroll has.
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I agree with spear then flock....If the mage passes his 4+ lookout sir then we are piercing ranks of the lions anyway.
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I agree with spear then flock....If the mage passes his 4+ lookout sir then we are piercing ranks of the lions anyway.
Doesn't apply for magic shooting, just mundane.
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Here is the final graph. Had to make some swift reform rolls because the STank only went an inch.
Knight 2 failed their swift refom so they are by the forest, facing east.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT4Final_zps8df95abc.jpg)
Boosted or non-boosted Spear? If you are going boosted (why wouldn't you for the D6 wounds instead of D3?), you need a 15+. You might want to consider 4 or 5 dice....
Just let me know your final answer so I can get this moving.
HHG
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4 dice boosted Spear, as you say, go for D6. 11 on four dice is doable right? :icon_smile:
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Four and three sounds like the best spread. Its risky but its making the best of a bad situation. Lets just hope Sigmar is still watching.
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4 dice boosted Spear, as you say, go for D6. 11 on four dice is doable right? :icon_smile:
Except when it comes to Dicelog. You got 10+4=14. Fails to go off. (To bad their mage isn't mounted....) :unsure:
3 dice Flock does nothing without IF against their 7 dispel dice.
Empire T4 Shooting Phase:
STank firest a shot at the EBT. 8 inches plus 2 inches does the trick. The 1 on the roll to wound does not.
I guess that turn evens out the great turn you had on T3???
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Ha! You know the Lvl 4 is going to eat our face and single handedly win this thing right?
He was right there, isolated in the Tower, a huge tactical blunder and we rolled 3 on a two dice steam engine....sigh...
Ok, I'm away on business, up to George, Zif, LSP and Play to save us! Back Thursday.
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What?...why?..no!!!
Getting an 11 on 4 dice?? Madness!
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What?...why?..no!!!
Getting an 11 on 4 dice?? Madness!
Totally. Run and hide and dispel Pit. Let the rest through.....
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Can you believe you got one 6 in that bundle that totaled 10....?
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Well, that's it. We're hosed. Dice had to switch on us. Hope we can get a great set of charges in the next few turns to counter this.
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Im guessing next turn the mage will join the white lions who will then enter the tower. We may need to think of putting a unit on the northern side of the tower to prevent an easy exit. Perhaps the steam tank. If it gets charged by the eastern lions id say itd be worth it to hold them up, particularly if we wildform it. Even from a frontal charge from the lions it shouldnt die straight away - and then we can flank charge from southern demigryphs.
His southern reavers will probably flee the board - he needs double 1 to rally if im not mistaken.
Dont think he'll charge anything next turn, but northen reavers may well sacrifice themselves to allow a silverhelm charge. If it were me, id park the reavers in front of the demis at an angle forcing a northward redirect, then move the silverhelms up to charge range of Knight 3/4.
The Bolt thrower will of course try to kill the nearest captainsus (btw can he see the bolt thrower for a charge in our next turn? Looks uncertain from the image).
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The Bolt thrower will of course try to kill the nearest captainsus (btw can he see the bolt thrower for a charge in our next turn? Looks uncertain from the image).
Yes. The EBT is just barely in his LOS. Put it that way in case it got destroyed and he was free to hit something else.
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3 dice Flock does nothing without IF against their 7 dispel dice.
Not that we could cast it to start with.
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Not that we could cast it to start with.
Why do you say this? - the mage on steed can easily see their mage, and it was our L4 that failed the spear not the L2.
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Oh, it looked as if he was hidden from sight. Never mind, it didn't work out anyways.
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People have to use dice to get your spear?
Its a cultural thing :icon_redface:
Anyway: from now on my spearbus will be called the 'slightly-above-average-Spear' men... See how that works for them...
Bad rolling on our part, but on the other hand, good placement on the side of the elves that saved their wizard. Let's not get depressed yet: This aint over untill its over (the wizard could just blow himself up :icon_twisted:)
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Why would we be depressed, we're still in the lead, there are a couple of points we can pick up relatively easily and the southern WL are still isolated. Sure he can put his mage in there but what then? Moving into the building takes them out of the fight for some time. Turning them around to face the Demis puts the mage at risk again. Even if we lose the Demis in the process, killing him is a net win from a lot of angles. I don't think he can avoid a flank charge either. Too bad we pulled those Knights so far away but they can still help out at some point.
Let's see what their magic brings. A nice little miscast is always welcome. After that, we need to come up with a plan of how to tackle one of their combat units. With hindsight, it probably was a mistake not to go after those WL with a multicharge this round, even if we couldn't hope to kill them. Would have meant no shooting at a Captasus, no mage joining, serried HE lines and being on the offensive...spilled Bugman's.
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HE T4 Movement:
No charges.
The Lone Reaver fails to rally and flees another 9 inches towards the board edge.
White Lion 1 faces the other way, fails its swift reform but makes the reroll. The Mage joins it.
The EBT moves out of the LOS of the Capt.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET4Infinity_zpsb0526512.jpg)
HE T4 Magic Phase:
HE gets a 4&3 on the Winds of Magic. No channels.
Waiting on their first spell choice.
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So thoughts on our next movement phase...trying to trap the lions with this.
DG3 to march past the lions and wheel to get a look at thie flank.
BSB to be 1" from the back of the lions to prevent any reform shenanigans from them
Knight 4 to 1" from the front of the lions
STank to rumble into the reavers and block up the helms from supporting hte lion (also Fandir can't wake up and decide to flee :))
Lance capt to keep the helms from charging the STank with their overrun towards the building. If he manages to survive and flee he may get away as he flees over the tower.
Hopefully by the end of all this we could charge the lions from up to 3 sides including the STank.
To save the Demis from the lion in the south I would be moving them as far north as possible such that a flee reaction leaves us with a safe flee out of the lions charge arc.
Of course depending on the magic phase all this may change.
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There are quite a few things from HHG we need to know first.
1. What of ours needs to test for march-block? (eg DG3/Knight4 by reavers?, DG2 by lions?)
2. Looking at Georges suggestions, can Knight4 even complete a move to within 1" of the lions without coming within 1" of knight3 and reavers?
3. If the steam tank charges reavers, can it be done so that it remains out of line of sight of the white lions? (ie by clipping the bottion of the unit).
4. For DG2, are they in range of BSB for quick reform rerolls?
5. If we were to simply move backwards with DG3, knight4 and knight3 what would the white lions need to charge each unit? This being done either by swift reform and facing backwards (moving 7"), or moving backwards but facing forwards (moving 4")
Depending on the above, my overall plan here would be as follows:
Firstly, move backwards with knight4 and knight3 while leaving the steam tank as is to fire again at EB1. Move the BSB to be between the reavers and the WL to block (theres no way he would then be a valid charge target from SH), and march DG3 through the woods ending up facing south.
For DG2, quick reform, then move them northish facing toward our L4 wizard, and move knight2 forward in such a way that if white lions charge DG2, they will pop through knight2 and get away. If possible, Knight2 will be out of LoS of a redirect into them. If not, they can flee too. All up, WL1 are stranded for yet another turn.
For the lance captain, i think we need to bring him back toward the tower instead of charging EB1. We have 2 turns left - if we one turn spend turning to face the EB1, and the next charging it we gain only 70 points...a waste. The captainsus could be better used for redirecting and doublelflee moves nearer the big fights in the middle. And lets face it - either unit of white lions, being stubborn, are unlikely to completely die before the end of the game, but with some smart play we could possibly get the SHs. If not, we are still up on points, so we could simply avoid for the rest of the game.
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There are quite a few things from HHG we need to know first.
Good questions- I will answer all of them once we see the effects of HE's turn- aka magic success.
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A 2 dice boosted Miasma on DG2 gets a 5,1. They reroll the 1 into another 5. 10+4=14.
Dispel choice?
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Tempted to let it go, do we still have our scroll handy for stopping pit?
If we lose a couple to pit the last guy could get away? Free pivots as a single model.
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Tempted to let it go, do we still have our scroll handy for stopping pit?
If we lose a couple to pit the last guy could get away? Free pivots as a single model.
Empire burned the scroll that turn protecting the STank from Pit.
Yeah- if you lose a couple one dude could swing around the Lions.
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I think we need to stop this. Pit may scatter, and even if it doesn't demis have initiative 4. A -3 miasma on us may well kill the unit outright.
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Ok
4 dice to stop miasma
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Also an image with improvements on my suggestion above
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT5Beauty_zps50676b4a.jpg)
Knights3 to charge reavers so the Stank can rumble in right on the corner
Demi's to move around so they can charge around the lions at the helms flank
Knight 4 to block up lions such that any pursuit/overrun misses the knights and Demi's
Lance cap and Mage to setup a double flee on the helms while the BSB stops the helms escaping. He has the charmed shield so should survive a bolt thrower shot.
All this means either the tank and/or Demi's can hit the helms with the BSB for support
Demi's 2 are setup to ensure the Mage gets into combat... But this all depends how their pit goes.
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I really like most of that. Does that really ensure that the northern WL cannot overrun into anything? It does look a little tight. We don't really need K3 to attack the Reavers, right? They could stay back and give us more of a safety zone.
What I'd like even better is to charge with K3 only. That leaves the STank free to put a cannonball through the SH. Means they'd lost some attacks in any later combat.
It doesn't help if those WL move 3" to the right either, and what if the SH move 5" to their left? The northern WL would stare down our DG unit with little room to escape.
How far could DG 2 possibly get away from the southern WL? Could we withdraw and then potentially charge in with some help? I mean sure they're stubborn and all but if we can only get a single DG to attack the wizard, it might not be enough. Winning a round at least could ensure a second attempt, and you never know how those Ld rolls go. K2 and possibly the BSB in the flank/rear could tip that into our favour...not that I'm that keen to attack them frontally at all but being attacked frontally seems even worse.
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They didn't go with Pit- they cast a 5 dice Mindrazor on the south White Lions- got 15+4=19. Spell is successful.
Their turn is done....you are up!
:::cheers:::
HHG
Does that really ensure that the northern WL cannot overrun into anything?
I checked. They have to maximize models and center it on the Knights. No chance of them clipping either Empire unit.
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If the lions shuffle around in the space we should be able hit them with both the STank and Demi's and stank instead.
The stank charging in really is to get a position up near the tower so it can get a run at the helms.
With mind razor up we need to move as far nth as we can and use knights 2 to help them flee out of range by popping through them... This means the knights probably don't move this turn instead
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I agree with the positioning for all the peg characters in Georges plan. It works - BUT - the SH can still escape by quick reforming and heading south with a small wheel. They are not trapped at all.
Another question - what if the reavers flee from Knight3? We need to see his reaction, and more importantly how far he flees before we decide what to do
I also think we need to move DG2 north (assuming we can successfully quick reform and move 7" - HHG, what happened to all those questions i asked before? We need those answers). Then we can flee/pop through Knight2 (basically see my previous post about this plan)
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OKy a slight tweak on what I had
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/warlordsteve/TTEmpT5Beauty2_Turn_5_Beast_Masters_zpscf7238c5.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/warlordsteve/media/TTEmpT5Beauty2_Turn_5_Beast_Masters_zpscf7238c5.jpg.html)
DG2 need to pass a swift reform, but this position will let them flee through the knights to saftey while the knights can't be redirected into.
DG3 is slightly more Nth so the lions can't shuffle sideways and block our charge around to the helms.
There are a couple of ways I see out of it, but nothing that stops the ions getting charge by 4-5 units if he saves the helms. if he doesn't save the helm then we are likely losing another knight unit if at all.
The helms certainly aren't completelt trapped, but if they reform and south we have taken them out of the rest of the game and isolated the lions.
If the reavers flee then I say we fail charge the knights and rumble the STank into the flank of the lions alone while we set the rest up for next turn as above
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- HHG, what happened to all those questions i asked before? We need those answers).
I had to go to work.... George has the file and can answer the questions if he gets to them before I can
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OKy a slight tweak on what I had
That's fine with me. I'd still prefer to put a cannonball into one unit to ease the pressure but I can see where you're coming from. I mean what we need to prevent is being charged with that Star Lance, so rumbling into the WL would set us up for such a charge, possibly with less wounds and more attacks coming our way.
If however we shoot the SH or Lions now, and then fail on triple 1's or whatever, we shoot them again. It might not kill them but it's just a backup plan. There's also the option for a rear charge with the BSB to hold them up or combo with the STank.
Your call, though.
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Ok liking the tweaked plan better. I'd move knight2 to be a bit closer to DG2 to be sure of the pop through - currently it looks like they could get caught if they don't flee far enough. If the BSB is in range before we start remaining moves, do this maneuver first then move the BSB to his assigned spot.
Also I don't think you need to send the tank into the lions even if the reavers flee. It could go up and send a S4 steam shot into them. Not a missile weapon so only a 6+ save for them (is that right?). It would hit A LOT of lions. The knights block anyway. And who knows they may fail a panic check.
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Looks fine to me.
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Steam Gun is a missile weapon just like a great cannon, throwing knife or handgun. Still, follow it up with the cannon and the repeater pistol and we could be looking at quite a few dead Lions.
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Can we move DG3 so it´s not in the Boltthrower´s LoS and still have it in the WL2´s flank as suggested? Seems like just a slight adjustment would do it.
Also, why the Wizard ahead of the Captasus? Wouldn´t we rather lose that to the Silverhelm charge? (We´d need to hold to prevent them from going into the STank, right?)
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Ok liking the tweaked plan better. I'd move knight2 to be a bit closer to DG2 to be sure of the pop through - currently it looks like they could get caught if they don't flee far enough. If the BSB is in range before we start remaining moves, do this maneuver first then move the BSB to his assigned spot.
Also I don't think you need to send the tank into the lions even if the reavers flee. It could go up and send a S4 steam shot into them. Not a missile weapon so only a 6+ save for them (is that right?). It would hit A LOT of lions. The knights block anyway. And who knows they may fail a panic check.
+1 to all of that, even if they have their bonus vs. missiles (would leave them wth a 5+ save, right? Still a lot of dead pointy ears I should hope)...
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A few thing to update you that affects your plan:
--the damn Stank doesn't want to play along. Suffers a mishap on 4 steam. Rolls a 2- loses 3 steam and actually suffers a wound from a str2 hit...
--knight charge the Reavers. They hold.
--Demis up north fail their march test.
--everyone else makes their leadership tests to either march or swift reform based on your plan
Please tweak what you have and we will go from there.
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Hmm, too bad. Knights 4 up north need to move so that they protect DG 3. If there ever was a good time for an enemy to flee, it would be now (talking about the WL)...but I'm wishlisting.
The other Knights will have to try to protect the STank. If we can limit it to one attacker, he might survive a round. Can he at least put a round through the SH and try to get the BSB?
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Yes- the stank could put a round into the Helms or the EBT if it stays put.
At this point, you could divert the lions straight north with knights 4 and bring Demis more towards the center.
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looking at something like this now....it relies on the knights3 to overrun into the lions and fight a combat on their turn.
should be able to still hit it with the STank and demis. KNight 4 is to catch the lions if they pursue so they present a flank to the demis.
STank to ramble an inch forward as it really doesn't have much to shoot.
Mages setup for spear into the lions and double wildform on knights 3 ready for the lions combat
helms now pursue straight into building with the double flee and BSB prevents the helms coming Nth.
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/warlordsteve/TTEmpT5Beauty2_Turn_5_Beast_Masters2_zps0d20b3e9.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/warlordsteve/media/TTEmpT5Beauty2_Turn_5_Beast_Masters2_zps0d20b3e9.jpg.html)
@playonwords
I think the only query you have left unanswered by HHGs poor dice rolling is can we back up from the lions.
I believe we would be able back off and leave the lions a10+ to charge.
I don't think the backing up plan really gets us anywhere as we'll run out of room by the end to conserve points....it also makes fro a boring end to the TEG :)
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George-
Thanks for sending me the file- helps a ton.
I nudged some of the Pegs to keep them an inch away from the Tower, Helms and each other.
The STank can't move because the Knight's charge is crowding its territory. It can fire a shot at the Helms if you want (goes right in front of the Wiz)
You forgot to move Knight2 up in the last graph you sent me. I pushed it out of the Lion's LOS so it can't declare a charge against it after the Demis bounce over.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT5Finalz_zps281f0ba0.jpg)
Empire T5 Magic Phase:
If there was ever a time to have a monster magic phase this was it- and Dicelog delivered for you.
You rolled a 6&5 with 1 channel.
12PD to 6DD.
What is your magic plan?
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Helms are not going to effect anything next turn so everything possible at the lions I think.
2 wildforms on knights 3 will make the lions wound 3s instead of 2s meaning we may have guys who leave and run in order to save their points.
main wants are amber spear and flock of doom to do any damage we can on the lions.
@playonwords and others...
my day is horrible and I don't have anymore time for input till after work, can you guys decide on the magics so HHG can keep this moving.
STank to shoot at helms.
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@playonwords
I think the only query you have left unanswered by HHGs poor dice rolling is can we back up from the lions.
I believe we would be able back off and leave the lions a10+ to charge.
I don't think the backing up plan really gets us anywhere as we'll run out of room by the end to conserve points....it also makes fro a boring end to the TEG :)
Hmm from the look of it, it seems like we'd have had plenty of room especially if we phsycially turned around and moved 7". And for me thats not a boring end to a TEG, its a wise tactical decision.
looking at something like this now....it relies on the knights3 to overrun into the lions and fight a combat on their turn.
should be able to still hit it with the STank and demis. KNight 4 is to catch the lions if they pursue so they present a flank to the demis.
HHG, can you confirm that an overrun by the WL (after breaking Knight3) will hit Knight4 front and not their flank? Not that it matters now that movement has been decided
Helms are not going to effect anything next turn so everything possible at the lions I think.
2 wildforms on knights 3 will make the lions wound 3s instead of 2s meaning we may have guys who leave and run in order to save their points.
main wants are amber spear and flock of doom to do any damage we can on the lions.
@playonwords and others...
my day is horrible and I don't have anymore time for input till after work, can you guys decide on the magics so HHG can keep this moving.
STank to shoot at helms.
Itd be good, but not essential for Knight3 to break, but not be killed (once in combat with the lions). So double wildform for T5 would be good, but not worth it i think since he's bound to dispell at least one, and T4 vs S6 is still a 2+ for him to wound. He'll be hitting us with ~12 attacks, ~8 hits, ~6-7 wounds, we save maybe ~3-4 from armour - so on average we live anyway. Maybe we can kill one or two lions before we flee. And then hopefully we get away when we run.
But i agree with George, a boosted amber spear into the lions flank would be good (hopefully killing 6), and perhaps a flock to kill maybe a couple more. It seems we're now commited to killing the lions, so we need to reduce their numbers before the combat starts.
So - if its up to me - id firstly throw 2 dice at flock at lions.
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Anybody else think that three dicing each spell (Wildform, Wildform, Flock, Spear) seems like a good idea. We out dice them and each of those spells makes them unable to reliably stop another spell. If they go after the first wildform we might want to consider not doing the second one but we should be able to pull off 2-4 spells and Wildform is scary since it means we might just hold against their lions, and they do not want that one bit. Plus, less chance the little horsies might actually kill a knight.
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What's the rule on stacking multiple castings of the same spell? It appears that if we cast Wyssan's on the knights twice that we would get +2 S and +2 T.
3 dice at Wyssan's on Knight 3.
Then 3 dice at Wyssan's on Knight 3.
That leaves 3 dice each for Flock and Spear.
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What's the rule on stacking multiple castings of the same spell? It appears that if we cast Wyssan's on the knights twice that we would get +2 S and +2 T.
Wissans will stack, but we'd need to get both off for it to be useful for what we want. Remember, in comat WL2 will be going first - and will probably kill at least half the knights with his attacks (assuming no magical interference). Also consider that with no line of sight for his pit (assuming WL1/mage charges DG2), he will probably focus on withering knight3 or mindrazoring WL2 - either of which will make one or even both wildforms totally useless. All likely scenarios point to the knights being wiped out before even attacking. So - we need to cast the spells worth casting, and that probably means only flock and spear.
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What's the rule on stacking multiple castings of the same spell?
Yes, they stack.
So what are you recommending Play?
6 and 6?
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Id first like to know the answer to a question i posed earlier: Can you confirm that an overrun by the WL (after breaking Knight3) will hit Knight4 front and not their flank? If Knight4 gets hit in the flank, im going to do my darndest to try and get Knight3 to hold against Lions - that means perhaps trying a double wildform, and then hopefully maybe he'll get a crappy roll on winds of magic in his phase (and so we dont have to worry about wither or mindrazor).
Assuming the answer to the above is "Yes - WL2 will overrun/pursue toward Knight4 front", then id like to throw 2 dice at flock. Im guessing he will let this through, then we try 6 dice on boosted spear. If IF, we may not have anymore dice to cast, (as we may lose dice from the pool) but if we do - our wildform attempts are likely dispelled by him. If no IF, he'll try to dispell spear with 6 dice. With our remaining 4 dice, we can have at least 1 free throw at wildform.
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Id first like to know the answer to a question i posed earlier: Can you confirm that an overrun by the WL (after breaking Knight3) will hit Knight4 front and not their flank? If Knight4 gets hit in the flank, im going to do my darndest to try and get Knight3 to hold against Lions - that means perhaps trying a double wildform, and then hopefully maybe he'll get a crappy roll on winds of magic in his phase (and so we dont have to worry about wither or mindrazor).
Assuming the answer to the above is "Yes - WL2 will overrun/pursue toward Knight4 front", then id like to throw 2 dice at flock. Im guessing he will let this through, then we try 6 dice on boosted spear. If IF, we may not have anymore dice to cast, (as we may lose dice from the pool) but if we do - our wildform attempts are likely dispelled by him. If no IF, he'll try to dispell spear with 6 dice. With our remaining 4 dice, we can have at least 1 free throw at wildform.
I missed the earlier question. Yes, it is the Knight's front.
Okay, sounds like a plan.
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Unbelievable. On 2 dice all you need is a 3....and you get Snake Eyes. Flock fails to go off.
A 6 dice Spear gets you 20+4=24.
Getting with HE on their response.
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Wow - we have had some bad luck lately. Oh well. Im guessing he'll dispell spear pretty easily.
Btw - how many wounds does the STank have left?
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Wow - we have had some bad luck lately. Oh well. Im guessing he'll dispell spear pretty easily.
Btw - how many wounds does the STank have left?
6
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Wow - we have had some bad luck lately. Oh well. Im guessing he'll dispell spear pretty easily.
Btw - how many wounds does the STank have left?
6
Hmm ok - well, dont forget to shoot lions with engineers repeater pistol if we're in range (as well as the 1 shot steam gun at the SH)
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I don't want to spoil the party but I thought the Tank had only 5 wounds left. It wounded itself lately and before that HHG said it had 6 left when the ECBT wounded it.
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I don't want to spoil the party, but all models in the same unit must shoot at the same target (BRB p. 39). The exception for the Steam Tank in the previous edition is missing from the current edition.
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Silverhelms are a single target I believe:
STank to shoot at helms.
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I was referring to:
Hmm ok - well, dont forget to shoot lions with engineers repeater pistol if we're in range (as well as the 1 shot steam gun at the SH)
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Its all ok - no parties have been spoiled. I simply forgot that rule. Still waiting on HE response to spear, they must be agonising over whether we'll wildform or not.
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It's only ten o'clock, Fandir's probably sleeping.
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It's only ten o'clock, Fandir's probably sleeping.
Then there's still a chance he'll change hid mind on the reavers and flee again :biggriin:
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I don't want to spoil the party but I thought the Tank had only 5 wounds left. It wounded itself lately and before that HHG said it had 6 left when the ECBT wounded it.
I did say that at one point- and then retracted it when we correctly figured out the EBT shot missed.
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They let Spear go.
It kills 2 before it rolls a 1 on the wound roll. 2 Lions die.
Wildforms are easily dispelled with 3 DD and a reroll versus 2 PD.
Empire T5 Shooting Phase:
STank fires a round into the Helms- 10 inches from the back of the 2nd row. 8 & 10. Hits 2, kills 2 Knights.
Empire T5 Combat Phase:
Knights make short work of the Reavers taking no wounds in return. White Lions pass their Panic test.
Knights overrun into the White Lions with a roll of 11. Combat on HE turn.
End of turn graph:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT5Wrapup_zps58eb0c95.jpg)
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I wonder... If instead of overrunning with the knights we refrain and reform into one long line facing east. That way we block the lions without having to sacrifice the other knights.
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Well, we don't want them to charge and overrun into anything, particularly not the Stank. This is really becoming complicated. Could the WL charge DG 3 if we don't overrun? If they're blocked, we could refrain and go for a double flee with both Knights.
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I wonder... If instead of overrunning with the knights we refrain and reform into one long line facing east. That way we block the lions without having to sacrifice the other knights.
Already made the overrun roll- but played around with BC and the Knights wouldn't get the right angle to get in front of the Lions because the STank is in the way.
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Ok back from traveling. 12 to 6 Magic phase and we kill 2 WL, bleeech.
Nice job so far. Lets see what happens. I thought the STank had 7 wounds left because the EBT missed?
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I am happy with the overrun... It gives the HE less options.
They can reform to face the Demi's and get hit by the STank in the flank
Or they pursue or overrun and get both STank and Demi's in the flank.
The BSb is also around to make it hard.
Hoping for a good magic phase with wild forms and savage beast
Remember next turn is our last, so if we want the points we have to do it next turn
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What is your plan to stop the Helms in T6? Block with the Lvl2 wiz?
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What is your plan to stop the Helms in T6? Block with the Lvl2 wiz?
Pretty much, depends on where they end up...if they charge and we double flee they be facing the tower, if not we have 3 pegs to play with.
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Wouldn't they follow the Captasus instead of facing the tower if he flees last?
We still have the Tank there though and he'd need to reform the WL after this combat round though to charge them in, which would the DG's a rear charge.
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Wouldn't they follow the Captasus instead of facing the tower if he flees last?
True, what sent to HHG was trying to get it in the other order, but I think the 1" rule screwed that and regardless how they ere placed the helms could choose who to charge first.
The lance cap could alway divert at the end too.
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Wouldn't they follow the Captasus instead of facing the tower if he flees last?
Looks like he wouldn't be able to complete a charge against the Wizard (he can't contact the Wizard's front), so the only valid target for charging is the Captasus, who will flee. If he doesn't redirect, he would move forward and stop 1" away from the wizard.
If he redirects the only viable target is the Wizard because he can't wheel around.
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Isn't he in the flank? Doesn't really matter because a corner clip is sufficient. He also doesn't have to close the door.
The lance cap could alway divert at the end too.
Well, he needs to rally, and then cannot move.
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Isn't he in the flank? Doesn't really matter because a corner clip is sufficient. He also doesn't have to close the door.
The Wizard should be positioned so that half of the SH are in his front arc. He doesn't have to close the door *once he contacts our unit on the appropriate facing*. He could clip the front corner, but from the diagram, it appears the SH can only touch the side.
This is like Noght's DECB, but not as mean.
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Isn't he in the flank? Doesn't really matter because a corner clip is sufficient. He also doesn't have to close the door.
The Wizard should be positioned so that half of the SH are in his front arc. He doesn't have to close the door *once he contacts our unit on the appropriate facing*. He could clip the front corner, but from the diagram, it appears the SH can only touch the side.
This is like Noght's DECB, but not as mean.
No it's as mean. But that's ok :icon_smile:
As long as no front arc contact then it'll be a failed charge.
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Uhm, sorry, Im missing something here...if it's 50/50, you dice off anyways. Apart from that, my understanding was he only needs to contact the wizard's corner to be in the correct facing. If he cannot close the door, the wizard does.
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Uhm, sorry, Im missing something here...if it's 50/50, you dice off anyways. Apart from that, my understanding was he only needs to contact the wizard's corner to be in the correct facing. If he cannot close the door, the wizard does.
Correct. The Wizard isn't tilted away enough at least by the look of the BC pic. You actually need to face away from your blocked unit. Not sure if it's intentional or a pre-planned flee, the latter methinks.
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Okay then, I think the plan was to flee regardless. Let's just hope this goes well and everyone rallies according to plan. Losing the Knights to the WL might already yield enough points for a draw (depending on the system used; we could get away with the barest of victories with just a tad above 100 points).
If we cannot get a super-combi charge off on T6 AND prevent them from killing anything else on their last turn, that might be it. Which, all things, especially my expectations, considered, isn't really bad.
But I'm getting ahead of things.
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At work so can't update the map-
HE didn't catch anything. Failed charges. The knights out west panicked when the Demis bounced over them.
HE got a 4&1 for winds. No channels.
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Sorry for the long delay. Work, family, getting home and getting things right in BC....
Lots of talk in here about facing, charge options, failed charges, etc. Working with lots of single models is really a beast in Battle Chronicler- this TEG has been a challenge.
While Empire could have put both Pegs in that gap and used a "double-eagle" cheese maneuver (on the High Elves, no less), I never want to advocate tactics in the TEGs/TDGs that wouldn't win you any friends if you were eyeballing someone across a war table. Pivot-blocking a STank is one thing, but allowing two models to stop a horde in their tracks from even hitting them breaks the fun of the game.
However, when I adjusted George's graph last night I inadvertently caused an error. Here is what I wrote to the HE team:
The graph George originally sent me had it set so you had to charge the Captasus first then the Wiz so the Helms would end up hitting the tower...but some of the models were within an inch of obstacles or other models so I adjusted it all to fit. But the way I set them reversed the charge order and actually gave you a good chance out in the open to catch the Capt. I don't want bad things to happen in the game because I (as the moderator) make a mistake, only if the General and team does....so I moved the Captasus as close to the White Lions and Helms as he could be so his flee angle would bounce him over Knight4 if he made the distance- since the Helms would use their one wheel to shoot the gap they wouldn't be able to wheel again to touch him. The Captasus made the distance to get the bounce...the Helms move forward on a failed charge. Crisis averted (only other option is to go back the Empire T5 movement, but I don't think anyone wants that)
Anyway, without further ado, here is the updated chart. When I got home and measured the Wiz flee, he actually bounced over the other Wiz. Unfortunately, he failed his Panic test as well and is running for the hills.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET5Finalz_zpscfaaa0b5.jpg)
FYI- more rule craziness this turn from the HE side. They mentioned casting Miasma on the Stank.
The way I see it- Miasma will not have any effect on the STank. Miasma directly affects the Movement characteristic and the STank doesn't have one. Spells that double or half movement are mentioned in the BRB FAQ which then increase or decrease the number of D6 you roll- but I see nothing in the FAQ showing how Miasma would affect a Random Mover. Unless someone can find something I am missing.
HE was waiting on the map graph before finalizing their spells. Hopefully we are ready to move on now!
:::cheers:::
HHG
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All good HHG....Inknow how hard BC can be to get things just right.
Its a shame the L2 is fleeing as he was part of the next flee manouvre....but we will move on.
On the miasma random mover....I am totally unsure, I have had it play both ways before....either losing a D6 for each pip on the D3....or no effect at all.
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Umm - id hazard a guess that HEs want miasma for the drop in initiative, not movement. (STanks count as having initiative of the engineer = 3). Then they can pit with better effect. However, maybe theyre forgetting that the STank isnt in the mage's line of sight. If not, and they do want it for movement, then i agree with HHG - i dont think it cant affect random movement.
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Umm - id hazard a guess that HEs want miasma for the drop in initiative, not movement. (STanks count as having initiative of the engineer = 3). Then they can pit with better effect. However, maybe theyre forgetting that the STank isnt in the mage's line of sight. If not, and they do want it for movement, then i agree with HHG - i dont think it cant affect random movement.
They specifically mentioned movement- because I told them the mage would be facing west after the failed charge.
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Wow - we REALLY need that steam tank to move and block the SH. Assuming we pass our steam point test (its 50% right? It still has 6 wounds), we need to decide what direction to send it. We could:
1. Send it at the SH directly - whether it comes in contact with the SH is irrelevant as long it it blocks the SH charge into Knight4. If it does manage to charge SH we likely wont do enough wounds to break steadfast on rerollable 9. But they will be pinned and cant use charge bonuses like star lance, normal lances etc..
2. Send it at WL2. Here we DO want it to contact and do wounds. Combined with DG3 charge we'll have two turns to wipe them out. However, the SH can then charge the STank in the flank in turn 6, getting an instant combat res of +4 (charge, BSB, flank, rank). The star lance can easily hurt the steam tank too, and probably the SH will do a wound or two. All up the combat res may not be in our favour for their turn 6.
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Hmm, I don't actually have a problem with Miasma affecting the Tank, rules-wise. Just detract what they roll from what it rolls. But that's just me.
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Wow - we REALLY need that steam tank to move and block the SH. Assuming we pass our steam point test (its 50% right? It still has 6 wounds), we need to decide what direction to send it. We could:
1. Send it at the SH directly - whether it comes in contact with the SH is irrelevant as long it it blocks the SH charge into Knight4. If it does manage to charge SH we likely wont do enough wounds to break steadfast on rerollable 9. But they will be pinned and cant use charge bonuses like star lance, normal lances etc..
2. Send it at WL2. Here we DO want it to contact and do wounds. Combined with DG3 charge we'll have two turns to wipe them out. However, the SH can then charge the STank in the flank in turn 6, getting an instant combat res of +4 (charge, BSB, flank, rank). The star lance can easily hurt the steam tank too, and probably the SH will do a wound or two. All up the combat res may not be in our favour for their turn 6.
Agreed we want to be able to move!
I am looking at option 2 and maybe using the BSB to take the SH charge try to challenge and back his armour save and charmed shield to keep him alive....we are then about 50/50 to save his points if he fails his break test. but then he dies if he fails the break test as he's the BSB....bugger. The level 2 panicing really has hurt as we can't setup a double flee
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It's paramount to know what those WL will do before we can formulate a final plan. If they get any closer, we have a good chance of double charging with the STank and Demis. That could be reason enough not to expect it but if they overrun into K4, they might hope to kill them. With 22 models and re-roll stubborn, they're unlikely to break, so it's not as farfetched as it might seem at first.
To protect us from an SH charge, the BSB could charge the flank. He's got 3 points of CR for charge, flank, BSB vs. 3 of theirs (rank, standard, BSB). Our BSB is much more likely to cause a wound though. Do hits with the Star Lance ignore armour even if the model is charged?
How far is the STank from the SH? Ramming them would be my preferred solution. Again, this depends on what the WL do. If they are in a position to hit the STank on their last turn, we can multi-charge them with BSB and Demis, and if not we should be able to get out of the way.
Of course there is a chance that we lose both Knight units, and/or something runs off the table, in which case all of this only matters if we get lucky and break and overrun SH or WL (or kill his BSB).
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Are we worried that the Lions (hitt in the flank) or Helms (either charging or charged) would kill the STank. Would a wildform help change this?
If we are happy that the STank would live through the Helms charge we could stick it into the side of the Lions with the demis as even if we lose the final combat after the helm charge and the demis break they can't be caught as the STank would have them pinned.
Is the STank into the Helms plus a BSB charge enough to break them? I'm guessing they would still be on a steadfast roll...we'd need to kill 9 helms, a lot of them with impact hits. Wildform the STank to improve this?
I am also looking at the BC file....I think if we can kill the 6 lions in this combat (unlikely I know) then the Demis may be able to charge past the Lions into the Helms if the Lions overrun into the next knights . This is a close call though and I'd take HHGs word on this option after combat as it really depends on the final positioning he has on the file he posted.
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It's not just the Helm charge. I think it could probably survive that, although the BSB with +1 attack from his potion and no AS is a problem. However, if the WL can contribute a couple of S6 attacks over two rounds of combat, I don't like the chances. It all adds up...but yes, a Wildform would help if you're bound to try that. Makes the BSB wound on 4's I think, the Helms on 6's and the Lions on 5's. Still I'd avoid that if we can.
Is the STank into the Helms plus a BSB charge enough to break them?
I'm guessing they would still be on a steadfast roll...we'd need to kill 9 helms, a lot of them with impact hits. Wildform the STank to improve this?
You're statistically looking at 8 impact hits and 4-5 kills from the STank. We would definitively win but I doubt that they would run. Charging them to hold them up is the cautious, point-conserving route. After all, even the more aggressive variant of charging the WL and allowing a counter charge won't break them and has the added risk of one of our units giving up some points.
Wildform doesn't help - we're already wounding on 2's and are wounded on 6's if we charge.
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Cheers mate
I am weighing up the 2 agressive options first...can we grind out all the lions in 2 rounds of combat without giving up points.
Or do we try to avoid giving the lions too much more and try for the helms plus BSB points.
I know with this game we could have spent last turn and next playing points conserve and taking the small win, but I also want to try and learn what it might take to beat high elf units....Last turn I was aiming to setup for the helms, failed some Ld tests, changed plans to the lions...and now with the L2 failing a Ld test I am back to weighing up the helms again.
At this point in time I expect the lions may actually reform rather than taking the Demi charge in the side....this could leave us taking on the helms with the STank and tactically withdrawing with the rest.
It feels like the last 2 turns tell us a lot about this type of all cav army....we have the movement to create some traps and a lot of units to manage on minimal leadership.
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If we're going to try and wipe out a unit, it's the SH, primarily because they have less wounds in total and one bad Ld roll (rather two) would kill the standardbearer and BSB as well. They also have considerably weaker attacks if charged.
Two problems: 1. The STank alone won't do it. 2. Someone need to occupy the WL.
Solution to 1.: BSB to help out. Probably still won't suffice but raises the chance to make them not SF and there's Savage Beast to help with it. Also try to bring in the Demis if at all possible though I don't quite see how.
Solution to 2.: Block with STank charge or Knights.
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I would think that the STank should hit the Helms. Can the BSB + Tank kill enough Helms to break Steadfast? That's the question.
Assume that the WL will slaughter the Knights. Without looking at the map is there anyway to cover the STank flank from WL?
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We are going to use Fidelis' interpretation of Miasma on the Stank because GW has failed to clearly spell it out:
(Random distance traveled) - (the D3 Miasma effect).
So, if HE successfully hexes the STank with a -3 on Miasma, I will subtract 3 inches from whatever his D6s come out to be.
I thought we were almost ready to get this started but they thought the Wiz could pit our Wiz. He is not in his LOS....so we are back to square 1.
Stay posted.
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We need to kill 8 models.
The BSB with Savage Beast can kill 2.5.
The Peggie kills half a helm, so let's round that down.
The Tank on average kills 4.4.
That means even with magical support and no misfire from the STank we're unlikely to get that number. There's also the Engineer's attack and the Steam Gun at S2, neither of which has a great chance to kill a guy. In the end, we could break SF but it's not likely.
Knight 4 could probably protect the STank but if the WL reform, our Demis get a rear charge off, and K4 can go into the flank (or Demis in the flank, same difference).
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They are probably going to start with a 1 or 2 dice Miasma on the Stank.
Start thinking about your options- if you are going to spend dispel dice on that or wait for their next spell.
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I see their main options other than miasma as pit and wither, both at the STank
I am tempted to stop the miasma assuming it hurts our movement, if we can't make combat we are spending the last turn running away.
If its only on initiative then Is it safer to stop it any way and just gamble on pit?
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No LOS for Pit right?
He's going to Mindrazor the Silver Helms. How far are we from the Helms with the Tank?
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At first I thought we should let Miasma through, but looking through the numbers I think we might want to stop Miasma, simply for lack of other options.
Their spells are:
Miasma, Withering, Okkams, and Pit.
The only targets in LoS for Pit are the Demigryphs and Knights. Not a concern since they won't wipe either one of them out.
The steam tank and Knight 3 are (apparently) both out of range of an unboosted Withering. Boosted they would need to roll a 12, which is 40% on 3 dice and only 75% chance on 4. We would have less than a 30% chance of dispelling with all 4 dice.
Okkams is even worse odds. They would need to roll a 14 (assuming the Silver Helms are within 18"), which has a 55% chance on 4d6. Our odds of dispelling are less than 15%.
If they toss 2 dice at Miasma, I think the best play is to throw all 4 to dispel, then take our chances with their last 3 dice. If they toss 1, it's up in the air.
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Of course. Forgot line of sight...
Agreed on the 4 dice roll if they 2 dice miasma
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No LOS for Pit right?
He's going to Mindrazor the Silver Helms. How far are we from the Helms with the Tank?
STank needs 10 inches to the Helms.
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No LOS for Pit right?
He's going to Mindrazor the Silver Helms. How far are we from the Helms with the Tank?
STank needs 10 inches to the Helms.
Agree with Zif and George, stop Miasma then, Tank needs to do something. Killing Helms would be nifty.
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HE tossed a 2 dice boosted Miasma on the STank. Like you earlier, they rolled Snake Eyes.
They rerolled one die and ended up with 4&1 +4=9. Spell failed to go off. End of magic phase.
HE T5 Shooting Phase[/u}
The EBT fired a vollet at your BSB- got 3 hits, 1 wound, but the BSB made his 4+ AS.
HE T5 Combat Phase:
I could give the numbers, but needless to say, Knight 3 got turned into red mist and destroyed. Knight 4 makes his Panic test.
The White Lions hold and face parallel to the Helms next to them.
Okay, here is how it looks:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET5Wrapupz_zps15d0901f.jpg)
Normally I don't ask- but in this case you might want to go for broke. 4 or 5 Steam on the STank?
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I don't quite see what 5 would do for us. An S3 breath attack in CC against the Helms yields .58 wounds instead of some smaller number I don't even bother to find out at S2.
The numbers still stand. STank + BSB will win against SH and that's that. I don't think either BSB is going to bite the dust but IF they roll high on Ld, that's a fat bunch of points right there. WL cannot possibly see the STank to counter. We would kill more WL and get more units into the fight but not enough and then they're stubborn - and we get counter-charged by possibly Mindrazored SH. Not an option.
The only drawback is if the STank doesn't make it and the BSB fluffs his attacks; he then might test on -1 or so. I think that is a risk we must take; a good last Pit + Panic could still take away our small lead.
4 Steam, 3 dice on movement into the left-mostest corner of the SH. BSB charges SH's flank. Get everyone else to safety. In magic, go for Savage Beast and Wildforms.
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I don't quite see what 5 would do for us.
The 5 Steam would only be if the Lions were your target. Just figured I would ask.
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Not a great time to fluff on our Ld rolls right now. If Kn2 and Dg 2 go off the board we´re not lookign pretty points-wise. ::heretic::
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I don't think we want to fight the White Lions. Any chance we can set up a double flee with the Demigryphs and Knights?
March DG3 up to within 1" so that a pivot about either front corner of the WL will hit the Demigryphs. Then place Knight 4 so the WL can't pivot to pursue the fleeing Demigryphs or hit the flank of the steam tank.
Pretty shady. But we realized early on that we have zero solution to White Lions.
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I don't think we want to fight the White Lions. Any chance we can set up a double flee with the Demigryphs and Knights?
March DG3 up to within 1" so that a pivot about either front corner of the WL will hit the Demigryphs. Then place Knight 4 so the WL can't pivot to pursue the fleeing Demigryphs or hit the flank of the steam tank.
Pretty shady. But we realized early on that we have zero solution to White Lions.
If you don't hit the White Lions, the safest bet is just to run both units to the east out of the Lion's LOS. The Lions won't catch anything else.
Not exciting, but it is what it is.
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Indeed. Time for fancy maneouvers is up, let's just run everyone out of LoS.
If anything goes off the board, we must try that last hurray on the SH. The flipside of charging in is that they could get off a Mindrazor on their last turn. However, there won't be all that many SH around.
Close thing.
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Run. Away. From. The. Lions. :icon_wink:
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Glad you are on Noght, hopefully we can get this turn moving....
STank 4 Steam- suffers a mishap. Rolls a 2. Loses 2 Steam, takes no damage.
STank needs 10 inches to reach the Helms. Sigmar would have to be with you to make that distance on 2 dice....
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Sigmar better be with us indeed :eusa_wall:
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Any charges then Noght?
Are you going for the STank/BSB jam on the Helms...or something else?
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Glad you are on Noght, hopefully we can get this turn moving....
STank 4 Steam- suffers a mishap. Rolls a 2. Loses 2 Steam, takes no damage.
STank needs 10 inches to reach the Helms. Sigmar would have to be with you to make that distance on 2 dice....
Well heck. Hide behind the tower? Drive it into the Burning Flood out of every charge arc? Thoughts?
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Yes.
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I am assuming no charges then.
1 or 2 Steam on STank movement?
1 Steam you might not go far enough but can shoot at the south White Lions- 2 Steam will probably put you in the lake. 2 Str 4 hits, no AS by the end of the game.
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I'd say go swimming. Hope for no DT (assuming there is a DT test involved).
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Not exciting, but here is what you got.
Everyone rallies, except the Captasus. He gets just outside the max range of the White Lion, but not outside the Helms max.
STank rumbles forward 5 inches into the water. The Helms can see it, but won't be able to make a charge because their wheel to turn once they clear past the White Lions is over 90 degrees.
Everything else moved to safety, passing the necessary March tests.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTEmpT6Final_zps88db1683.jpg)
Empire T6 Magic Phase:
You get double 5s. No channels.
10 PD to 5DD
What do you want to cast?
BTW, I can change the facing of the Wizards is they aren't looking at something you want to cast at
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Pretty much the only thing we can do is try to snipe their Wizard with Amber Spear and hope he fails his LOS.
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Pretty much the only thing we can do is try to snipe their Wizard with Amber Spear and hope he fails his LOS.
How many dice? Is it even worth casting anything and risking miscasts? You are unlikely to cause enough wounds on anything to force a Panic test....
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Can we throw a Spear at the Bolter? Or Flock, Spear and Repeater Pistol at the southern WL?
Nah, it's probably not worth it. The Bolter seems out of LoS, so let's call it a day.
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Should just pass on magic.
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Should just pass on magic.
Figured. I will pass the ball over to HE. All 10 dice remove the RiP on the Wiz Lord.
Boiling Flood failed to wound da STank.
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HE T6 Movement:
White Lions 1 declare a charge on the Wiz Lord. He flees 6 inches away from them, bouncing over the Lvl 1. The Lvl1 makes his Panic test.
The Helms declare a charge against the Capt- and he continues to flee and comes right to the edge of the board. Close one.
The Helms make a successful redirect at the Wiz Lord. The Beastie wants nothing to do with them and flys 10 inches away, safely out of Helm max range.
The Helms are an inch away from the tower and Lions so don't move at all on a failed charge.
The White Lion's highest charge die was a six, they they pivot around on a failed charge.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TTHET6Final_zpsa6cded08.jpg)
HE T6 Magic:
For Winds, 6&4. No channels.
They start with a 4 dice Miasma on the STank getting a 5,4,3,2. The 2 rerolled into a 1.
13+4=17.
Dispel response?
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Assuming STank is Miasma target?
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Assuming STank is Miasma target?
Yep- sorry. I will modify the post above.
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wow a lot happened overnight...
stop miamsa and take our chances with pit i think....they are looking for double 6 on pit anyway.
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Stop the Miasma with all we have, we wouldn´t stop Pit anyway even with 6DD. Hopefully they´ll blow their own Wizard up with the IF at least.
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A 6 dice dispel gets 26+4=30. Dispelled.
HE throws all 6 dice on a Pit on the Stank and get IF.
Their effort doesn't pay off, however- it scatters 5 inches back towards them. No effect.
The Mage gets a 4 on the Miscast chart- causing a massive boom that kills 12 White Lions. They pass their Panic test.
HE T6 Shooting Phase:
The EBT shoots at the north Demis, getting a hit, wounding, but not removing a model only causing 2 wounds. (I went back and checked to make sure they had never failed a DT test...T6 was the only turn they had to roll and they made all of them)
THE TEG IS OVER
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It was a close one. Empire barely hung on to numerous VPs all over the battlefield in almost every phase the last 2 turns.
If the Demis or Knights didn't rally, if the Wiz Lord was caught, if the Capt went off the board, if the STank was Pit'd...or if the Demis panicked and went off the board from a bolt death...
It could have gone either way.
The way I calculate it- Empire has won it by a mere 150 points. Congrats to the home team! :::cheers:::
I want you to leave some after action comments in the common Battle Thread. Before you do, please take the time to go through and read the other team's thread. I guarantee it will provide you a lot of insight into why they did, what they did, when they did it.
The next TEG is already in the queue- I am going to take the new Lizzies for a spin against Rothgar's latest Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder list....after a break, of course.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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FYI- TEG6 is getting off the ground. Post in the Lizard or Empire Tactical threads if you want to join a team.