Topic: Tactical Exposition Game 2 & 3: Fighting against the Griffon

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Tactical Exposition Game 2:  Preparation

This Tactical Exposition Game (TEG) is a modification to our popular Tactical Decision Game (TDG).  In this game, forum members will be able to sit "table-side" to watch a forum member go up against one of my Griffon Formation lists.   

How TEG2 is going to work:  I already have a 2500 Griffon Formation list prepared.  I will be the General for that list.  The forum is going to debate on what army & list they want to pit against me.  After forum members post list submissions the forum will vote on which one they want to go with.  The list creator that wins will be the primary General but have his own thread to take input/advice from the forum.

As far as the scenario and the battlefield, I will roll randomly for the scenario out of the BRB (except for the Watchtower scenario which I will re-roll).  The terrain will be randomly determined like I always do.

In addition to this intro thread, I will create a Battle Thread, a Dicelog Thread, and an Enemy General Thread.  After the battle is over, I will create a thread that covers my thought process during every turn so people have a chance to see why I did what I did (I can’t really do that during…because then I can’t achieve any surprises or hidden agendas).   

I also plan on deleting the intro thread and dicelog thread when they are no longer needed to keep the Tactica forum from getting too cluttered.

Picking the Enemy

The purpose of this thread is to get things started while I am away for 3 weeks.  So when I get back, we can start things off with a bang.

If you want to participate in list building, think up the nastiest army you have used/faced/wish to build (anything but Empire), put together a legal 2500 point list, and post it.

A few pointers-  if you take some time on edited it and making it look presentable it is easier for people to look at.  I also recommend a short blurb on how you see the list working and what makes it so nasty.  Also-  give the army a unique name for voting purposes.

I think 2 weeks is a sufficient amount of time for people to come up with lists and post them.  I have pinged Noght to see if he would be willing to create the final voting bracket.  If we give the forum about a week to get their votes in after Noght posts the bracket, then we should be ready to start once I get back.

If one army (such as new Chaos) appears to have the lion's share of lists, you could decide to pick that army type and then just vote among those lists for which one you want to go with.  Plenty of different ways to do it-  I will leave it up to the forum and Noght.

So-  get to list building!

 
HHG

[rothgar13]

All right, since I was hoping to see some games against Chaos, I'll put up a Chaos list. I think that the current Chaos "power list" with the Daemon Prince and Gorebeast Chariots has a rather bad matchup against Empire in general, so I'll put up a MSU list that I want to test out:

Invaders - 2500 points

Core - 944 points
2 x Chaos Chariot
16 Chaos Marauders, Flails, Mark of Slaanesh [Chaos Sorcerers go here]
2 x 5 Chaos Warhounds
2 x 12 Chaos Warriors, Halberds, Mark of Khorne, Musician, Shields, Standard-Bearer

Special - 550 points
2 x Chimera, Flaming Breath, Regenerating Flesh

Heroes - 611 points
Chaos Sorcerer, Dispel Scroll, L2 Wizard, Mark of Slaanesh [Lore of Slaanesh]
Chaos Sorcerer, L2 Wizard, Mark of Slaanesh, Skull of Katam [Lore of Slaanesh]
Exalted Hero, BSB, Armor of Destiny, Daemonic Mount (Barded), Halberd, Mark of Tzeentch, Scaled Skin

Lords - 395 points
Chaos Lord, Biting Blade, Crown of Command, Disc of Tzeentch, Enchanted Shield, Flaming Breath, Mark of Tzeentch, Soul Feeder, Talisman of Preservation, Third Eye of Tzeentch

Grand Total: 2500 points

The gist here is that this is an MSU(-ish) style of list - no unit harbors that many points, and almost all of them pack a punch. This list uses mobility, combo-charges, and a healthy dose of Shadow magic to deal its damage. Here's a unit-by-unit breakdown:

Chaos Chariots - Essentially, heavy chaff. Can fight off most light units on their own, and can add a fair amount of extra CR to an offensive.

Chaos Marauders - The idea here is a mage bunker that has a fair amount of bodies, can fight off the average mage hunter (WS4 S5 attacks at I4 are a heck of a disincentive), and won't panic, no matter how much it's shot at. In a pinch, they can be thrown into a fight, but they're mostly looking to hang back.

Chaos Warhounds - Bog standard harassers and redirectors. Nothing special here.

Chaos Warriors - The infantry hammers of the list, these guys provide a pinch of static CR and a whole lot of S5 attacks to shred stuff with. Also will never Panic.

Chimeras - A very important piece of the list, these are the shock troops - they move fast, have some protection against cannons, and will absolutely smash any infantry unit they come into contact with. Terror can also be potentially useful.

Chaos Sorcerers - Here for magic defense duty, mostly, though the Skull of Katam could work as a nice magic dice generation engine with a bit of luck.

Exalted Hero - The "wild card" of the list, he can hunt down anything too tough for the Chariots to handle, assist the main fighters in combat, or go hunting in the backfield. The 1+ armor/3+ Ward save combo makes him extremely hard to hit, and T5 plus 3 Wounds means you have to get lucky more than once.

Chaos Lord - The infamous "Hortennse the Discolord" build (because he can dance all night long! ), this guy is a "just try and kill me" kind of option that can jam whatever needs to be held in check until the proverbial cavalry arrives to chop it up.

So anyway, that's my submission.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

.. since I was hoping to see some games against Chaos, I'll put up a Chaos list.

Yes, very nasty.  That one would be a good test of the Griffon.   

Noght has agreed to assist me while I am gone.  He is also going to be the final rules arbiter if we have any issues the forum can't agree on (I can't really do that this time being a player)

Also-  I sent him a PM with the current list I plan to use so no one thinks I tweaked my list based on what army/list the forum finally decides on.

In the end, both lists should be something we would see/run as "all-comers" lists for a tourney.

[Noght]

Undying Legion 2500
(Unless you get into combat, then they crumble)

Lords:  480
Lvl 4 Heirophant High Priest, Lore of Nek, Wand of Jet
Lvl 4 High Priest, Lore of Light, General, Dispel Scroll

Heroes:  97
Tomb Herald BSB on Steed (normally not in 2400 list but 1 less crumble is cool right?)

Core:  648
4 Chariots w/Std and Muso
19 Skeleton Archers w/Std and Muso
19 Skeleton Archers w/Std and Muso
5 Skeleton Horse Archers (Scout/Vanguard)
5 Skeleton Horse Archers (Scout/Vanguard)

Special:  782
3 Sepulchral Stalkers (EBtS option)
3 Carrion
Tomb Scorpion (EBtS option)
Warsphinx w/Fiery Roar
Warsphinx w/Fiery Roar

Rare:  490
Casket of Souls
Hierotitan
2 Screaming Skull Catapults

List is designed to Win in the Magic Phase primarily and Shooting secondary.  Not unrealistic to average 10 PD/magic phase.
Stand back and pound the opponent and hit him with Chariots and Warcats near the end of the game when he get's close.

BTW, it's beaten Chaos Dwarves (Frenzy Baiting the Destroyer FTW), WoC, Skaven and Wood Elves.  Lost vs WE MSU in Dawn Attack random deploy.

[zakalwe]

personally, i would take the bsb out of the TK list and run 2 x 3 chariots, or add 4 carrion as more warmachine hunters.

[Noght]

personally, i would take the bsb out of the TK list and run 2 x 3 chariots, or add 4 carrion as more warmachine hunters.

Don't disagree.  I just tweaked my 2400 list with stuff I actually have.  I'd prefer a 2nd Scorpion (still need 15 points) or 2 more Chariots (10 points too much).

Besides, we should vote for a different list, save this one for another day.

[librisrouge]

I disagree. It would be fun to see that TK list in action against a Griffon. I think it can take it honestly. As far as the BSB goes, perhaps we can fit in another wizard? Chance to channel another dice, plus we can make it a death wizard for the sniping spells (always great against Empire imo.)

[zakalwe]

I am more than happy to see TK vs empire, as TK are my second army. Really whatever list, 2500 points has always been strange to me as my local group have been leaning towards 2k for a while now ( including local tourneys) and my personal favourite is 3k.

So i am not in a good position to judge a  2.5k list. Having said that. i advocate would advocate khatep or Arkhan, because i think these are two characters that an empire list can expect to meet in a comp with TK in.

I know we have faced DE before, but i know a very successful and competent DE general who could bring a challenging DE list to bear.

As always i am happy to see any game played. I would be curious to see an OnG or skaven opponent as they can match us in the hordes with added ooph elsewhere. Skeven have all their nasty tricks still and OnG have ..well OnG.. tough gits.

[Baluc]

How about trying the griffon out against this TK list.

2400 Pts - Tomb Kings Roster

Total Roster Cost: 2398

Arkhan the Black, 360 pts

1 Tomb Prince, 169 pts
Spear, Shield
Chariot, 55 pts
Dragonhelm, 10 pts


Liche Priest, 130
Dispel Scroll


14 Skeleton Archers, 104 pts
Musician,Standard Bearer

7 Skeleton Chariots, 405 pts
 Musician, Standard Bearer


4 Skeleton Chariots, 230 pts
Musician

3 Sepulchral Stalkers, 165 pts

1 Khemrian Warsphinx, 230 pts
 Fiery Roar

1 Khemrian Warsphinx, 230 pts
 Fiery Roar

Casket of Souls, 135 pts

Screaming Skull Catapult, 120 pts
Skulls of the Foe

Screaming Skull Catapult, 120 pts
Skulls of the Foe

[Big Brother]

I don't have a list to share, but one thing I found today using a Griffon based list is that I had a hard time against a list with many flyers (2 terrorghiest, flying vamp lord, and two varghiest units).

[Porkix]

I vote for Noght list.

[Noght]

I vote for Noght list.

Noght is playing at Adepticon next Fri - Sun.  He'll be sick of WFB and likely hungover!  I'm just trying to prime the "pump" with list ideas....

Need more list ideas!

[rothgar13]

Since folks seem to be in a TK state of mind, let's work the odds and put up a TK list of my own...

Mortuary Cult - 2500 points

Core - 850 points
6 Skeleton Chariots, Musician, Standard-Bearer
6 Skeleton Chariots, Banner of Eternal Flame, Musician, Standard-Bearer
20 Skeleton Archers, Musician, Standard-Bearer [Characters go here]

Special - 545 points
2 x Khemrian Warsphinx, Fiery Roar
Tomb Scorpion

Rare - 490 points
Casket of Souls
Hierotitan
2 x Screaming Skull Catapult

Heroes - 255 points
Liche Priest, Dispel Scroll, L2 Wizard [Lore of Nehekhara]
Liche Priest, L2 Wizard, Power Stone [Lore of Nehekhara]

Lords - 360 points
Arkhan the Black [Hierophant, Lore of Death]

Grand Total: 2500 points

This list is in a similar vein to the one Noght posted, but it has a few key differences - more Chariots, more castings of Desert Wind, and the mighty Arkhan the Black leading the charge. A L5 Death caster along with Panic-causing catapults really makes for a heck of an incentive for the enemy to get close (can you say Doom & Darkness?), and then the Chariots and the Sphinxes can take advantage of that by slamming in there and wiping stuff out. A single Tomb Scorpion might not seem like all that much backfield infiltration, but it's more than capable of ripping any non-Steam Tank piece of artillery in an Empire list to shreds, as well as contributing positively to other combats if need be.

[librisrouge]

I think Rothgar has a better list there anyway. The extra wizards make for some fierce channeling and Arkan is the best caster for taking advantage of the amount of PD this list produces. Sure it has less archers but it also has a lot more chariots that can act as counter units. Baring the Warsphinxes this is the basic list I was considering when TK came out (I couldn't bring myself to leave Empire in the end) so I'd also like to see how it performs.

[TCWarroom]

You need snake riders or you arent trying...

[rothgar13]

My experience with the Snake Surfers is mostly negative, actually. They're not that hard to kill.

[mrth0msen]

I thought of posting a high elves coven of light list, but dont know if it makes sense as they are up for a new AB soon?

[sammay23]

I thought of posting a high elves coven of light list, but dont know if it makes sense as they are up for a new AB soon?

I'd post it. The coven is often seen in tourneys, and having strategies to counter it is important. It's also a good example of a castle-list. Cracking those can be important for Empire.

[Baluc]

My experience with the Snake Surfers is mostly negative, actually. They're not that hard to kill.

You basically deathstar with ramotehp and Arkan for d&d, the staulkers however are great against this that TK normally struggle against, like steam tanks, DPs, and other 1+ armour nonsense.

[rothgar13]

I would think Arkhan on his own is enough to handle that, and I don't think a unit of Surfers (even with Ramhotep's boon) is anything more than a speedbump to a DP or a Tank. You may be getting re-rolls, but it's still only a 6+ save against S6, and it's not like you're going to hurt it back.

[mrth0msen]

Hi all,

Here is a pretty nasty HE coven of Light list, that I would like to see go up against the griffon list. There is a dual AM variabt of this list, that includes dual lvl 4, str 8 banishment and if you would rather see that one, I will modify the list for you.

theNasty Elves - HE Coven list

Archmage Lvl 4 Light
Jewel of the Dusk, Reaver Bow
315 points

Mage Lvl 2 Light
Seerstaff (picks Pha's Protection and Banishment
165 points

b]Mage Lvl 1 Light[/b]
Annulian Crystal
140 points

b]Noble BSB Lvl 1 Light[/b]
Radiant Gem of Hoeth, GW
138 points

30 Spearmen, FC
295 points

17 Archers, Standard and musician
Standard of Discipline
217 points

10 Archers, musician
115 points

30 White Lions, FC
Banner of Sorcery, Skeinsliver
555 points

15 Swordmasters, FC
Razor Standard, Talisman of Loec
310 points

3 great Eagles
150 points

1 RBT
100 points

Total: 2500 points

This list gives you:
dual str 7 banishments
D3+1 power dice each magic phase
+1 dispel dice, -1 power dice to the opponent
+1 (sometimes +2 to roll for first turn)
Lots of shots
2 units that can blend most of what you throw at them

What do you think?
Regards, mrthomsen

[Noght]

Need more list ideas!  Let's get a nasty Skaven, Ogre or Dark Elf list posted.

[sammay23]

Nasty Ogre Kingdoms List

2498pts

Slaughtermaster, Lvl 4: Heavens, Fencer's Blades, Power Stone, Rock Eye, Iron Fist

Butcher, Lvl 2: Maw, Dispel Scroll, GW

Bruiser, BSB, Hv, Iron Fist

Bruiser, Crown of Command, Hv, Iron Fist

9xOgre Bulls, Hv, Iron Fist, FC

10xIronguts, Hv,GW,FC

7xManeaters, Brace of Pistols, FC, Dragonhide Banner, Poison, Swiftstride

Kitten

Kitten

Kitten

Ironblaster

Ironblaster


Just to describe tactics - kittens act as chaff/hunters. This list actually throws out a lot of ranged firepower. The maneaters are firing 15 BS4 poisoned shots at 24", and the two ironblasters do an excellent job with counter-battery fire.

Each of the three main combat blocks has the potential for brutal output, particularly against T3, lightly armored infantry. Augmented with Heavens, they are even more brutal. This list is one that a favorite opponent of mine takes, and has a lot of versatility. If it outguns you, it can sit back and pick away. If not, Ogres can close FAST. It's a nice all-comers list... probably why Noght doesn't like it

[Noght]

Nasty Ogre Kingdoms List

I hate you!   

Need more lists!

[rothgar13]

OK, here's another list - this is my tried-and-true Beastmen list. I know that Beastmen get disregarded by some, but this one has clawed out wins against some of the more vicious lists Warhammer has to offer in a no-comp environment, so don't underestimate it.

Rothgar's Ramhorns - 2500 points

Core - 668 points
48 Gors, Additional Hand Weapons, Full Command [Wargor BSB and Great Bray-Shaman go here]
2 x Tuskgor Chariot
3 x 5 Ungor Raiders, Musician

Special - 688 points
39 Bestigors, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame [Beastlord goes here]
2 x Razorgor
5 Harpies, Scouts

Heroes - 571 points
Wargor, Battle Standard-Bearer, The Beast Banner, Gnarled Hide, Heavy Armor, Shield
Bray-Shaman, Chalice of Dark Rain [Lore of Death]
Bray-Shaman, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Ruin [Lore of Death]
Bray-Shaman, Shard of the Herdstone [Lore of Death]

Lords - 573 points
Beastlord, Armor of Destiny, Crown of Command, Shield, Sword of Battle [General]
Great Bray-Shaman, Fencer's Blades, Jagged Dagger, L4 Wizard, Talisman of Preservation [Lore of Shadow]

Grand Total: 2500 points

The strategy here is simple - dominate the Magic phase using the Herdstone magic generation engine (+3 power dice per turn with all the L1's sitting around it), and then push 2 high-caliber fighting Hordes down people's throats, with a bunch of chaff ensuring I get the matchups I want. The Chalice of Dark Rain can hopefully slow shooting down as I march upfield, and the Scouting Harpies, Razorgors, and Raiders should be in position to deal with the artillery by T2.