Topic: TEG6 Battle Thread: Rothgar's Empire versus HHG's Lizardmen 2500

[Holy Hand Grenade]

You get IF on a 6 dice Dwellers.

Skinks fail 4 Str tests.  4 Skinks die.  Skink pass their Panic test.

The Wiz gets a 9 on the Miscast table, WS prevents a wound, but you lose the rest of your PD.  Lifebloom on the STank back to 8 wounds.


Empire T6 Shooting:

A few Archers toss arrows at the Skinks but miss.


Empire T6 Combat Phase:

Slaan fails to wound the Demis.  They pass their Steadfast Break test, but again fail their Combat Reform test to turn around.

TG pass their Fear test.

Engie whiffs.

9 attacks from TG in front row get 6 hits, 3 PF which gets 1 more hits, 4 supporting attacks that hit.  12 hits net 5 wounds, 2 Stank AS.  STank takes 3 wounds.  It has 5 remaining.


I will start working the last Lizzie turn tonight when I get back from work.  This one is winding down.

[rothgar13]

Yeah, you got me this game, HHG. I think the only question at this point is margin of victory.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Here we go-  the final wrapup.


Lizzie T6 Movement:

The Skinks out west rally.  Skinks are Skinks….they just need some time to get their courage back up!

The Skinks near the TG make a test to March and get up into the Wiz bunker’s grill.

Lizzie T6 Magic:

Lizzie roll the final winds at 5&4.  2 Lizzie channels (a trend, no doubt).

11PD versus 5DD

Throwing caution to the wind and not wasting any time, the Slaan tosses a 6 dice Wildform on the TG.  Getting 2x5, 2x4, 2x3s.    I figured you would throw your DD looking for 2x6s…but you didn’t get it.  Spell goes off.

Next, the Slaan tosses a 5 dice Iceshard Blizzard on the Demis and gets IF.

Slaan rolls a 5 on the Miscast for a small template boom.  Slaan makes his Ward save, Demis aren’t so fortunate and take 3 wounds.  1 Demi removed.


Lizzie T6 Shooting:

Skinks kill 3 of the Archers.  Archers make their Panic test.


Lizzie T6 Combat:

Slaan again fails to do anything to the behinds of the Chickens.

Demis only have two models and are no longer Steadfast-  and they finally fail their Break test.  Std Bearer dies too with the Break-  leaving 1 model to run.

The Archers behind them also finally Panic and run away 7 inches. 

The Demi runs away 10 inches-  the fat toad tries to chase them down but only goes forward 8 inches.

The TG pass their Fear test.

Engies fails to wound the TG.

9 TG attacks from the front row net 8 hits, 3PF that also hit, with 3 supporting attacks that hit.  14 total hits net 8 wounds.  The Stank makes 3AS but takes 5 wounds.  Stank destroyed.

And that is a wrap…

Here is how it looks in the end:

-------------------------------

By my calcuations, the Empire gained 1190 VPs, the Lizzies racked up 2193.  The total difference is just over 1000.

Now, before you get caught up in other pursuits, grab a can of beer (or two) and go through the other team’s tactical thread.

Once you have done that-  come back in here in the Battle Thread and give your thoughts.

I will post mine tomorrow once I think about it.  My hat is off to Rothgar, once again an excellent sportsman and tough opponent, and his team of Empire faithful.

I think there is lots to learn from both sides with the TEG.  I look forward to your comments!

 
HHG

[swampsheep]

First of all; this was a lot of fun. Both lists are very different from what I am used to play (and play against), so I learned a lot.

I have now read through the lizzie thread and I still don't understand the TG charge to the steam tank.

The main argument was fear of the DGK charging into that combat, but I am unsure if that would pose such a big problem on its own.
Maybe there is something I remember wrong (I don't have BRB or AB nearby) but I thought the Slann had a +2 CR against the stank. +1 BSB, +1 flank. So placing demigryphs in the flank would give 1 wounds on first round due to unstable (charge + std + flank vs BSB + flank) and 0 wounds in the following rounds, basically locking two out of only three potent units we had left while guaranteing the slanns safety from the only threat we had against it - dwellers.
Second - I might not understand wandering deliberations right, but I assumed he gained the lore attributes corresponding to the spell being cast - correct? I mean otherwise metal wouldn't make sense. So with Miasma you had a free teleport out of there at any time if the combat got heated.
There might be rules I remember wrong or don't understand. But it seems to me that the hot-metal-on-wet-toad action was about the safest spot on the battlefield - until the TG charged in and made it all a lot riskier.

Compared to that, most of my other thoughts and comments are secondary.

I think that I was confirmed in my belief that 40 halberdiers are insufficient. I think we were in deeper than where 10 halberdiers could have made a difference, but the rather small size of the unit had me worried for a big part of the game.

Not including a helblaster also seems a big mistake in retrospect. We did discuss it but thought the great cannons better as that was our best reply to big monsters. Unfortunately, the big monsters got the memo about staying at home, and our great cannons were apparently filled with dirt and not gunpowder.

Dice were not on our side initially, and though that by no means were the reason for our loss (lizzie side played brilliantly I might add here!) it was frustrating to have to watch. Both knights units fleeing was probably a bigger problem for us than I thought at the time, because they could have helped kill of some of the skink swarms somewhat faster.

I also think we made an error going for the Slann at all. Odds were too small and we spend way too much magical power on that gamble at the expense of boosting our troops (which needed it in order to win). We should have focused on winning the close combat fights and then we could have caught the slann when he had nowhere to hide and killed him on CR.

Poison and war machines. Damn. I have to remember how dangerous that is. In my meta, poison is rather rare, and I have never thought how problematic it really is for warmachines.


A suggestion for number-generation for future TEG; instead of going random numbers, maybe we should go by number-sets? It is an idea I have toyed with for a while to even out the bad luck of dicerolling.

In a physical sense, you would give each side a bag of 60 tokens; 10 tokens with the number 1, 10 with the number 2, etc. Whenever you need to roll dice, you draw from that bag. Whenever you have drawn a full set of one of each number you put the set back into the bag to be able to draw again. Whenever you need to roll something where lower is better (like leadership tests) you draw from your opponents bag instead.

You can adjust the number of tokens. More tokens means more randomness (which might not be desireable), but fewer tokens can mean too much predictability and maybe lead you to do or not do specific actions to improve odds for future actions.

I have not yet tried it, so I am unsure on how big the pool should ideally be to make sure that it doesn't influence your actions too much, but on the same time ensures a somewhat even distribution of rolls.

It should be fairly easy to create a piece of software to handle this and then the only factor of unfairness left is the fact, that some dice rolls are more important than others.


That is all my thoughts at the moment - thank you for the match, it was loads of fun.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

The issue with the Demis hitting the Slaan is that on the charge they get +1 charge, +1 Std, +1 Flank versus +1 BSB.

The Slaan would take two wounds the first turn, and 1 every turn after.  He would have died Emp Turn 6, because he already suffered a wound.

Shadowing out was a possibility, but not a guarantee-  Empire was all over that one.  Plus- we lost all our low level mages rather quick in the end.

We were ahead on points T3 and T4, but not enough to lose the Slaan.

 If we didn't kill a tank and you killed the Slaan and cleaned the board of our chaff, Lizzie's probably lose.

The TG could have gone after the Wiz bunker, but you had plenty of room to flee.  TG take out the cannon the next turn, and if the Bunker rallies, you have 8 inches to scoot away from the slow block on the next turn.

So a long distance charge to get your Mage....with the threat of a stank crawling up the TGs backside the whole time?  And the real threat of a Dwellers on the TG outside of the Slaans leadership bubble?

I didn't like the looks of the way that plays out-  hence the reason the TG threw themselves back into the fray.

[swampsheep]

The issue with the Demis hitting the Slaan is that on the charge they get +1 charge, +1 Std, +1 Flank versus +1 BSB.

Now I'm home and checked the rulebooks. Why is it, that you don't count your +1 for the flank against the steam tank? That makes a difference, as I see it and I can't find any reason you don't get that bonus.
Then yes - demis win the when they charge. 1 wound. And the following would all be equals (which gives 1 wound to the slann due to the musician, except if he was so lucky as to net a wound). But that would tie up two out of three empire CC units while you had free reign close combat wise. In the mean time, any casting with lifebloom effect or shadowing effect would have to be dispelled or the effort would be lost. So we had to dispel two spells each round - giving you quite a bit of leeway in the magic phase.

It was not an attractive scenario seen from the empire side. But the close combat with the templeguard had considerable better odds, had magic been slightly more in our favour and the steam tank survived.

Shadowing out was a possibility, but not a guarantee-  Empire was all over that one.  Plus- we lost all our low level mages rather quick in the end.

But if the DGKs had been engaged to fight the slann, you would still have had Tetto and a skink shaman alive and we would have to set off dice to dispel miasma at any cost meaning you would have more or less free reign with anything else you would want to cast.


Maybe it comes down to strategies and preferences, but I still see charging with the temple guards as riskier than the alternatives.

[Forumite]

Thanks Empire for a great game! It was close a few times, but your dice were not kind, at least in the first half of the game.

That Slann was amazing, even when stuck in melee he had three spells to cast. Extra channels gave Lizards a huge advantage in the magic phase. I think we had too many wizards though, it was usefull for 2 dispel scrolls and all the buffs and spells from Tetto'Eko, but the Slann had enough spells to cast with all those PDs himself.

On the Empire side, DGs are strong, but not strong enough to face ranked MI like the Krox. It would probably have gone differently if they had help from the Knights or your wizard. On that note, I think Empire could use one more wizard to provide versatility in spell choices, my favorites for a support mage is Fire and Shadow for the signatures.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Yep-  I missed calculating the +1 for the flank of the Stank-  normally facing doesn't matter when it is just the STank stuck in combat because it is Unbreakable...but it would have been factor for the Slaan fighting anything else.

Even knowing this and thinking back at that time during the battle, I would have made the same decision putting the TG against the STank.  And I would have ensured the other STank was blocked!  I thought about typing a long explanation...but I don't think it would add too much more to what I have already posted.

Maybe it comes down to play style and different ways of managing the battle, I don't know.

[dseevers1854]

I think the take away points for me are 1) Slaans are still tough and exceptionally well suited for their job of magic offense and defense. In this game I think the Slaan did wonders in keeping us from ever having a significant magic phase. At best we might have had a phase where we had a 1 or 2 dice advantage. 2) Empire artillery works best with a little variety. In hindsight we probably would have done well to have fielded a Hellblaster. I know this conversation came up and the idea was considered. It just came down to needing points not just for the Hellblaster but for the Engineer as well; I think we would have been well served to have found those points.

The Empire had some unfortunate events occur early game that really caused this to turn into an uphill battle. Playing against a good Lizardmen opponent didn't make that any easier. Our cannons did little to soften either of the close combat blocks. And as mentioned earlier, our magic phases were pretty poor.

Having read the Lizardmen thread, I think we might have had better luck placing our Demis together where they could tag team opponents. Maybe I wouldn't be second guessing our placement of those units if the knights had decided to lend a hand.

I was surprised that the Lizardmen chose to use their skirmishers almost exclusively to slow down/divert our eastern Demis. On turn 3 or 4 there was an opportunity for the skirmishers to move behind the Demis and really start picking on the cannon and the wizard bunker. While those skink skirmishers did eventually get to the cannon, I think they would have mopped up the board if they would have moved that way sooner.

Great game both sides. Better luck next time, Empire.

[rothgar13]

Yeah, at the end of the day we suffered a couple of early casualties, and didn't have much room for recouping. My observations, in no particular order:
1. The Knights fluffing their rallies was more important than it initially seemed. I really needed them to try and keep the Skink swarms under control, and they were not around to do it. I'll endeavor to keep them at least within the re-roll bubble in the future, just in case.
2. The lack of magic weapons was a real problem. I was unable to do anything about the Slann, which in turn forced my hand a bit by pressuring me into spamming Dwellers to try and get rid of him (and that didn't work out). Between that and the failures of my chaff units, I'm thinking that squeezing a Captasus into the army is a worthwhile endeavor.
3. 40 Halberdiers was woefully insufficient for my purposes, and the M4 Archer detachments mesh a bit poorly with the speed the rest of the list features. As such, I'm probably moving to 50 Halberds and axing the Archer detachments.

Apart from that... bad dice happen, and early in the game they happened to Empire. Not a whole lot to be done about that. Congratulations to the Lizardmen team, I feel that you guys played a good game. I take my loss on the chin and retreat to make adjustments.

[carmaul]

HHG:

Have you ever thought about replaying a TEG again?   You could run it as a TDG since you know what each side was thinking.

You could simulate a lot of the game and just ask for feedback when it comes to things you are unsure of.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

It certainly is a possibility.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

A few After Action comments from me:

On the Lizzie list:

I had a lot of fun with it.  The Skinks leadership sucks...we had to pay attention to getting the Skinks in the right place to divert, but not cause panic tests to others.  We took a phased approach-  several waves of Skinks is better than trying to get them all out front to start.  Slaan placement was also key in this-  he needed to be in the center near the action.  3 dice Ldr 9 rerollable-  it is hard to fail.  The Lizzies even made a couple improbable tests during the battle-  3 dice just opens up a "chance" to make things.

I mentioned it in the Lizard thread, but I really missed using some fliers in this list.  The Sallies performed wonders but it would have been nice to have 2 Chiefs on Terradons. 

I liked having the Slaan running around solo.  It freed up the TG to do their thing, and Ethereal definitely came into play this battle. The Slaan is vulnerable to characteristic tests...but that doesn't change if you put him in a block of TG.  Actually, it even makes spells like Dwellers that much nastier-  not only does the opponent get a shot at the Slaan, but the TG could lose 33%.  The old Slaan had some protection from this by having the ability to negate rolls of 6s on powerdice from Wizs in 24 inch range, but the new one doesn't have that luxury.

Tett was fun to play with but I don't think I am going to use him in the future.  I normally shy away from Special Characters so my lists can be used in any environment.  If I got too used to Tett, I would miss not having him and wouldn't be finding other ways to fill his gap.  For his points, I think I am going to add some more Krox and maybe change the two scroll caddies to Heavens.

The Battle:

As for the battle, I think if we ran similar lists against each other again it would be a lot tougher for the Lizzies.  Cannons aren't always reliable, but when you have 4 of them, it is rare to have such low T1 and T2 effectiveness (although I just played a game last night against my son's new Dark Elf army and both cannons blew themselves up on T1 and T3!  It happens).  I never expected the Krox to live through the game...but the Lizzies got way more mileage out of them then we should have.

The Haunted Mansion and Altar on the edges severely limited the Lizzie ability to get Skinks into the backfield.  We smartly avoided the Haunted Mansion on the right-  especially after seeing what it did to the Empire Knights.  The Altar didn't really come into play too much but it did get in the way.

It has already been mentioned-  but I think a key takeaway for Empire is giving STanks the necessary breathing room to operate.  Running two STank side by side is powerful-  but they can't get in each other's way.  Something I noticed Rothgar while I was moving your units around on the battlefield-  your list may require more space than the board allows.  What I mean by that-  the Knights, Demis, and STanks need room to roam and have to leave room for the hoard and cannon firing lanes.  Things can get bunched up quickly.  The Knights that got jammed by the Mansion in the east did so because they couldn't squeeze in next to the Demis.  Even if they hadn't-  Lizzies could have jammed them up with one diverter-  getting a two for one bang for our points.

Some things to think about-  it might be more effective to run one block of 5,6, or 8 Demis than two units of 4.  Another option is to drop the vanilla Knights and use Huntsmen for your cavalry deep diverting support.  I have tried this with both my Griffon List and all-Cav list and it works well.  This allows you on your first turn to move full speed ahead with the Demis and block/divert what you want with the Huntsmen Scouts.

In Summary:

I had an absolute blast in this TEG.  As usual, Rothgar was an awesome opponent. 

I find it kind of interesting that the "finesse" armies of the last 3 TEGs have pulled out victories.  Part of their success is due to a group of collective minds using all their tricks and schemes to best effect in a TEG-  but I think talented Generals can use these types of lists to great effect.  The difficult task with them is that the margin of error is really low-  one mistake and the whole house can come crashing down (like what almost happened in this TEG when I didn't block the Stank).

I think Empire has all the tools to deal with the new Lizardmen book.  Lizzies have some cool units and abilities, but I don't see them as a major obstacle for a balanced, well-played Empire army.  If they go monster-heavy, our cannons will drop them.  If they troop-up on Saurus, our less-expensive troops can win the war of attrition.  Lizzies will also have a hard time with a 1+ AS spam unless they design their army to deal with it.

Keep the After Action comments coming in.  The norm is for people to shift their attention elsewhere when a game is done-  but these comments are on of the most important parts of a TDG/TEG!  Give us your words of wisdom.

 
HHG

[Siberius]

I started off trying to be on the Lizzie team but dropped off when I realised that the lizards were gonna be totally not in my ballpark of style and that I wasn't contributing anything useful, but it was interesting to see how it turned out. I guess cannons do have issues like this and with no HVG it would have been interesting if one or both had been running an engineer. Probably would have meant a totally different landscape come turn 2 and 3.

From the Lizards I have faced so far, they do indeed seem like a nice book. The 8 sig spell thing is really tough to face because there is often a whole bunch of spells that might be coming at you and you just can't stop them all.

It was good fun to read in the end and I'm glad the Empire made a late, albeit futile, mini comeback to keep things interesting.

[rothgar13]

A fair point indeed, HHG. I think this is why I am considering going all-mounted, because it replaces one bulky element (the Halberdier Horde) for a less-bulky one (Inner Circle Knights), and it gives the list more overall speed/repositioning ability.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

A fair point indeed, HHG. I think this is why I am considering going all-mounted, because it replaces one bulky element (the Halberdier Horde) for a less-bulky one (Inner Circle Knights), and it gives the list more overall speed/repositioning ability.

Yep-  that is surely another option for you.  It fits well with the rest of your army too!  Would you stick with Life?

[rothgar13]

Definitely. The only thing more annoying than 1+ save spam is 1+ save spam you have to get through multiple times because they keep getting raised.

[George]

Finally got through all of the empire side's thread.

I don't have a huge insight from all of this....other than Roth needs more Faith in his Steel and Gunpowder   

The cannons including the STanks gave Roth the ranged supremacy, but with both Cannons out of action from turn 1 I think he was right to push. Using the STanks agressively though effectively took the gunpowder out of his list.

Losing both knight units to panic also really hampered him, this highlights why the gleaming pennant can be good....It may not always be needed, but when it is it can change a game. The eastern flank would have rolled much quicker with the knights still around.
I'm not sure how many Halberds were left when the Arch Lector stepped up into combat, but I would have considered keeping him out of the fight and backing his stubborn crown to buy the Demis time. I don't think the TG would have been running from that combat, and the extra turn locked in combat might have help. All this meant that the Faith in the army really did very little as well.

This left Roth really just playing with Steel. Though the agressive moves early with the STanks were right, I think the choice of targets was an issue and led to the positioning where they were easy to block up. I play a fair amount of random movers and there is nothing worse than when you end up pivot blocking your own models....its annoying enough when the opponent does it.

Overall I saw it as a battle of some unlucky dice rolls and a couple of small errors. HHG played the lizards well and Roth really only made the one main mistake with the STanks getting too close, unfortunately he couldn't afford this on top of his bad luck.