Topic: Free company

[Footpatrol2]

Has anyone tried this yet? As in a combat block like 28 ish? They look interesting.

[Minsc]

I've tried them as detachments.

Would never use them as a big combat block. Impetuous is fine on them, I can work with that - but them having Levies as well is just too much.

Ld6(7) even with Warband, when you can't use your Generals IP or BSBs HtL just means that my Free Company would run off the table more often than not.

[commandant]

Mind you Men-at-arms have this difficulty as well.   I think they could be interesting. Are you considering deploying 7-8 wide

[Minsc]

Mind you Men-at-arms have this difficulty as well.   I think they could be interesting. Are you considering deploying 7-8 wide

But Yeoman Guard don't.
If I play my Empire as Brets, I'm using Exiles/Border Princes-rules.

The thing is that Free Company cost about as much as spearmen (1 ppm less than Empire Spears if you give them shields, 1 ppm more than Exlie-spears), and have about the same number of S3 attacks most of the time (2 attacks per model in the front rank vs. 1 attack in 2 ranks - there are pro's and con's to both).
Then they do have S3 throwing weapons, but they also have no armour and Levies.

Can they work? Probably, but imo the tradeoff just isn't worth it.

[Skyros]

Mind you Men-at-arms have this difficulty as well.   I think they could be interesting. Are you considering deploying 7-8 wide

Men at arms are substantially more reliable

Men at Arms can use the leadership, not only of the general, but of any other knight with a vow within 6 inches

Of course, since they have warband, they can be rocking around with leadership 9 all on their own, in any case. And of course one of their unit champions can be upgraded to give them stubborn, and if you're running a battle line of them, you can just plop down a 45 point sergeant at arms in the middle unit that lets them give ground instead of fallback as much as they want, and makes them immune to panic from other levies, and can let all levies within command range reroll failed panic tests.

He's basically a mini BSB/captain/permanent shieldwall combo for peasants.

And naturally, being peasants, the enemy gets no VP for capturing their banners, so they are a pretty risk free investment for line infantry, since they are 50% cheaper than free company/state troops.

And, notably, yeomen guard are still peasants, without being levies. AND veterans. And two points cheaper than an empire spearman or one point cheaper than a free company.

[Footpatrol2]

If you put a leadership 8 character in the unit you can use his leadership or the wabandsl leadership whichever is higher.

I never tried it but was thinking on taking a unit 7x4 with a wizard in demo. Use that spell +1a +1s +1ap.  Since thrown weapons is str based that's 14 str 4 ap1 shooting and 21 str 4 ap1 in combat.

I think if your going more defensive style of play spears all day. If your going a more offensive style maybe some free company?

[The Peacemaker]

Mind you Men-at-arms have this difficulty as well.   I think they could be interesting. Are you considering deploying 7-8 wide

Men at arms are substantially more reliable

Men at Arms can use the leadership, not only of the general, but of any other knight with a vow within 6 inches

Of course, since they have warband, they can be rocking around with leadership 9 all on their own, in any case. And of course one of their unit champions can be upgraded to give them stubborn, and if you're running a battle line of them, you can just plop down a 45 point sergeant at arms in the middle unit that lets them give ground instead of fallback as much as they want, and makes them immune to panic from other levies, and can let all levies within command range reroll failed panic tests.

He's basically a mini BSB/captain/permanent shieldwall combo for peasants.

And naturally, being peasants, the enemy gets no VP for capturing their banners, so they are a pretty risk free investment for line infantry, since they are 50% cheaper than free company/state troops.

And, notably, yeomen guard are still peasants, without being levies. AND veterans. And two points cheaper than an empire spearman or one point cheaper than a free company.

Basically the state troops Empire should have had. With the bonus pf not giving up points for losing a banner.

Honestly, the bret exiles list is Empire without stank/engineers. You even get blunderbus!

[commandant]

Men at Arms can use the leadership, not only of the general, but of any other knight with a vow within 6 inches

Men-at-arms can't use the leadership of the general.   They are levies.   They can use the leadership of a knight within 6 inches (who may also be the general) but this is a big difference.

Of course, since they have warband, they can be rocking around with leadership 9 all on their own, in any case. And of course one of their unit champions can be upgraded to give them stubborn, and if you're running a battle line of them, you can just plop down a 45 point sergeant at arms in the middle unit that lets them give ground instead of fallback as much as they want, and makes them immune to panic from other levies, and can let all levies within command range reroll failed panic tests.

He's basically a mini BSB/captain/permanent shieldwall combo for peasants.

The sergeant-at-arms is a good upgrade for the Men-at-arms.   I think people might be sleeping on this one.   That said he suffers from the same problem as warband and shieldwall in that he is only useful when you have lost combat.   Though he does bring 2 attacks which, usefully are not at WS2.

The men-at-arms can be ld9 but you need a lot of models (20 deployed 5 wide, 24 deployed 6 wide and so on) to get that leadership.   This basic number of models assumes not causalities are taken.   This seems like not a very good assumption when you are WS2 T3 AS5+.   So it is reasonable to assume that you need 1 rank, maybe more than 1 rank in order to maintain this leadership.   Even lowly Empire Halberdiers should be doing roughly 4 wounds if they can muster 8 attacks. (slightly more because I ignored armour bane).   Therefore it is reasonable to assume that you need 25 models deployed 5 wide and 30-36 deployed 6 wide in order to stand any chance of maintaining this leadership.   This brings the basic unit (with the sergeant-at-arms) to 214 points which is a fairly hefty point total.

I can get 23 free company plus a captain of the empire armed with a halberd, full plate and a brace of pistols for this with 4 points (or so) left over.

If I deploy them 7 wide then they are doing 14 WS2 Str 3 attacks and 2 WS5 Str 5 attacks.   If somebody charges them I have a stand and shoot of 6 BS3 Str 3 (I assume) attacks and 2 BS5 Str 4 attacks.   This could be a reasonably solid unit.   it is leadership nine.   If I can get it up to 25 models then it is leadership 10.   It might be worth considering raising it to 30 models to maintain that leadership ten.   Though with T3 and no AS it'll lose models like crazy to anything that hits harder than a summer breeze.   Also with no standard and open order it is starting combats at -2 Static Res against most closed order foes.   Admittedly it has horde so for a while it'll only be -1 static res.

Honestly, the bret exiles list is Empire without stank/engineers. You even get blunderbus!

 It also doesn't have wizards I believe or detachments.

[Skyros]

It has very cheap daemonology wizards.

[commandant]

Level 4 wizards?

[Athiuen]

Only level 3 wizards, but with an extra chance to blow up!

[commandant]

I do need to do some deep dive into how much better a level 4 is compared to a level 3.

[Warlord]

5x5 men at arms is all you need. 30 or 36 is a waste of points.
Also 8 attacks from halberds, at WS 3 vs WS 2 is just over 5 hits, and just under 4 wounds, with a 6+ AS (except for maybe 2 which have armour bane. So maybe 3 casualties. Not bad. But not amazing.
Thats also assuming you get the charge, which is probably a 50/50 chance.
The M@A will have ranks in you, point for point to a 7 wide unit of halberds.
They they use spears, they are attacking back with 7 attacks (or more depending on champ upgrades) probably hitting 4-5 times, and wound 2-3 of those. So combat us mostly tied. For a cheaper unit.

[Zygmund]

I never tried it but was thinking on taking a unit 7x4 with a wizard in demo. Use that spell +1a +1s +1ap.  Since thrown weapons is str based that's 14 str 4 ap1 shooting and 21 str 4 ap1 in combat.

Daemonic Vessel is a Self spell, and you surely aren't gonna but your L3/L4 mage into a Free Company.

I never stop wondering how people are so sure their L1/L2 Wizards will get a certain non-signature spell from the spell list. Without the Lore Familiar for 30pts (IMHO, wasted on a small Wizard), the chances are 17% for a L1 and 31% for a L2. That's no base for strategy.

And then the Wizard still needs to cast that spell successfully, which is hard enough for a casting value of 10+, and worse still when you're likely within the dispel radius of the opponent's L3/L4 Wizard.

With a L2 Wizard, the chances you actually get to the point where the unit has this bonus when it is in combat is 13% without an opposing Wizard, and less than half of that against a L3/L4 Wizard. The unit is a prime target for soft shooting and spells, and you risk getting your Wizard killed too.

I'm continuously astonished that anybody suggests building army/unit strategies on something so improbable and risky.

But surely it would be fun to get this off once. 

To answer the actual question:

Has anyone tried this yet? As in a combat block like 28 ish? They look interesting.

A friend of mine regularly played a unit of 20 Free Company in 6th ed, and initially took it in TOW too. But the unit achieved nothing, and my friend soon stopped playing Empire altogether, moving to armies that are efficient and fun in TOW.

I've myself used units of 10-12, either as detachments or as individual units. They will always perform well, because I only expect them to die while diverting, or getting ignored and then getting to do something by chance. To get more use out of them is very situational, I think.

-Zyg

[Sir Falo]

Funny that this forum have become a Bretonnian forum in the last month... Not at all tired of reading the same comment in different flavour.

Free Company is OK. But I think of them as something on a flank. Warband makes them ok at charges and they can get quite good Ld. So they dont need to be in the General/BSB:s bubble like State troops and Demigryphs. As they can shoot they can be quite the pain for fast flanking units. Have played them in 7x3 and 7x4.

They work as detachments. But then they are more cannon fodder.

[Warlord]

I think that they can have independent leadership and have thrown weapons are their main uses.
I wish they could have had the option to skirmish. Then they would have been really interesting.
They really should have the motley crew rule, where you can give individual models alternative weapons like whats available on the sprue - extra hand weapons, great weapons, halberds, pistols, blunderbuss, crossbow. That would have been very interesting.

[Minsc]

Funny that this forum have become a Bretonnian forum in the last month... Not at all tired of reading the same comment in different flavour.

Thats a direct consequence of Brets getting a subfaction that basically plays like (better) Empire.

So it's not that this has become an bretonnian forum as much as it's a "dey dukk ur jerbs"-situation.

They really should have the motley crew rule, where you can give individual models alternative weapons like whats available on the sprue - extra hand weapons, great weapons, halberds, pistols, blunderbuss, crossbow. That would have been very interesting.

*Laughs in Border Princes Brigands* 

[Skyros]

It's like they took all the cool ideas that should have been in the empire book (foot knights! motley crew customizable free booters! Professional well trained versatile line holding infantry! Blunderbusses!) etc and skimmed them off to make a bretonnian sub faction of ><

[Sir Falo]

Funny that this forum have become a Bretonnian forum in the last month... Not at all tired of reading the same comment in different flavour.

Thats a direct consequence of Brets getting a subfaction that basically plays like (better) Empire.

So it's not that this has become an bretonnian forum as much as it's a "dey dukk ur jerbs"-situation.

They really should have the motley crew rule, where you can give individual models alternative weapons like whats available on the sprue - extra hand weapons, great weapons, halberds, pistols, blunderbuss, crossbow. That would have been very interesting.

*Laughs in Border Princes Brigands* 

Its done to death in almost every thread. Like how everyone talk about what they want the rules to be, not what they are. He asked how to use Free company. To say "take a regiment The Empire cant have" is not an awnser worth anything. If we want to win game we have to come up with anwsers we can play with.

To go back to the question. One thing you can do with Free company is to use them with Stead of Shadows spell. They are not that dependent on character support so they can act on their own. Cast them upp 24" behind the enemy and then shoot upp a alone wizard or other support troops like war machines. They can march and shoot so this works quite ok. If you can get the timing right you can get knights in the front and Free company in the back.

[PowerSeries]

Ooh and as open order they get a free pivot too right?  That could help after you fling them forward.

[Sir Falo]

Yes, but only if you do not march. Still can be good.

[The Peacemaker]

Funny that this forum have become a Bretonnian forum in the last month... Not at all tired of reading the same comment in different flavour.

Free Company is OK. But I think of them as something on a flank. Warband makes them ok at charges and they can get quite good Ld. So they dont need to be in the General/BSB:s bubble like State troops and Demigryphs. As they can shoot they can be quite the pain for fast flanking units. Have played them in 7x3 and 7x4.

They work as detachments. But then they are more cannon fodder.

Because Bret Exhiles is literally a merger between Brets and Empire. It's just that the name has 'Brets' in it.

[Clymer]

Its done to death in almost every thread. Like how everyone talk about what they want the rules to be, not what they are. He asked how to use Free company. To say "take a regiment The Empire cant have" is not an awnser worth anything. If we want to win game we have to come up with anwsers we can play with.

Thanks for saying this! 

I don't have much to add about Free Company though, they seem challenging to use. I wouldn't think of them as a line unit per say, but rather a cheap unit that could add a rank bonus when combo charged alongside something more formidable, but that has trouble generating rank bonus. Knights are probably too fast to combo with, but maybe flagellants or Greatswords? Then the thrown weapons are more about opportunistic use than central to any strategy.

Flagellants or greatswords in an army with militia also present good narrative elements:
- Caught up in the religious mania stirred up by a passing band of righteous flagellants, the townsfolk emerge with a holy fervor and whatever metal scraps they can find in kitchens and sheds.
- In a desperate attempt to stave off invaders, the city burghers (greatswords) have organized the townsfolk into a hasty defense.

Would these combos be top-tier competitive armies? No way. Would they be fun as hell to play? Definitely, with a like minded opponent. 

[Footpatrol2]

So interestingly you can march and shoot with free company so they can hit things roughly 17 inches away and in marching column 21 inches away.

[PowerSeries]

And if they target a large target, they get to all attack.  And then all stand and shoot when they get charged.  If you could only give them that poisoned attacks spider banner for O&G they would be giant killers.