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Tactical Exposition Game 3: Empire Griffon versus New Chaos 2500
Battle Thread
This Tactical Exposition Game (TEG) is a modification to our popular Tactical Decision Game (TDG). In this game, forum members can join one of two teams- my team using an Empire “Griffon Formation” list, or TCWarroom’s Chaos team, using a list that won Adepticon this year.
We will have several running threads for this TEG:
--A Battle Thread (this thread) where all the tactical decisions are posted after they are made and where the results are posted for all to see
--An Empire Tactics discussion thread for those on the Empire team
--A Chaos Tactics discussion thread for those on the Chaos team
Like usual, Noght can monitor the Dicelog with me. Fidelis will be our rules arbiter. If you want to view the Dicelog, go to Dicelog.com, get an account and PM me your email address and I can get you added.
Like we did for TEG1, artillery dice rolls will be accomplished by doubling a D6 and using a 6 as a misfire. For the scatterdice, I will roll a D24 and use the following scale, with 24 always going to the top of the map (“true north”)
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/Scatter_zpsbef513ef.jpg)
The Lists
The Good Guys: Winter Forge
10 Archers
5 Archer Detachment
5 Archer Detachment
42 Teutogen Guard (Greatswords) FC
Arch Lector (Gen) GW, AoMI, OTS
Captain (BSB) Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon
Witch Hunter Gold Sigil Sword, Dragonbane Gem, Ruby Ring
19 Halb detachment
10 Archers Musician
Battle Wizard Lord Lvl 4 Light Wizard, Dispel Scroll, Opal Amulet
Battle Wizard Lvl 1 Light Wizard, Forbidden Rod
5 Inner Circle Knights Musician, Banner of Swiftness
2x 5 ‘nilla Knights Musician
2x 6 Outriders Sharpshooter w/Repeater Handgun
Steam Tank
The Bad Guys: Creeping Death
Daemon Prince of Nurgle (Gen) Lvl 4 Death, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Other Trickster Shard, Scaled Skin, Soulfeeder, Flaming Breath
Exalted Hero of Tzeentch (BSB) Enchanted Shield, Talis of Pres, Third Eye of Tz, Disc of Tz
22 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle FC, Standard of Discipline
Chaos Sorceror of Nurgle Lvl 1 Death, Dispel Scroll, Hideous Visage
6 Chaos Knights of Nurgle FC
2x Chariots of Slaanish
4x 5 Warhounds
Chimera Regen Flesh, Flaming Breath
Hellcannon
The Scenario & Terrain
Rolled a Pitched Battle this time. It is a straight-up fight.
Sticking with the snow and winter theme from TEG2, I kept the road from the last battle but this time the fight will take place high up on a mountain top.
Overall, not much terrain to speak off- a Chaos Idol, a Tower, and two snow drifts (I will explain what they are below). To depict the elevation for the battle I have created these elevation lines in powerpoint and will layer them on to each battle graph I display. Each elevation line is 2 inches high.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3TerrainampElevation_zpsffdb2aca.jpg)
For those of you having a hard time visualizing it with the topographic lines, I made an elevation chart looking at the battlefield from the side. The Tower is 5 stories high (10 inches) and the Chaos Idol on top of the hill is 6 inches high. This battle could be accurately described as "King of the Hill."
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3Elevation_zpsf0960dda.jpg)
Description of the Terrain:
The Ward Tower is inscribed with magical runes. All units within 6 inches have MR2 (just like the Magic Circle in BRB).
The Snow Drifts act like the Mist Wreath Swamp in the BRB (with no mist or Fimir!)- it is Dangerous Terrain except for skirmishers, units failing an I test at the end of every movement phase, lose d6 models in the snow.
Chaos Idol (a modification to the Idol of Gork in the BRB):
At the start of every player #1’s turn:
1: Blessing of Khorne: all units within 6 inches have Frenzy. Cannot be lost while blessing is active.
2: Blessing of Nurgle: all units within 6 inches are -1 to hit.
3: Blessing of Slaanish: all units within 6 inches are immune to Panic and Terror tests.
4: Blessing of Tzeentch: all units within 6 inches gain 6+ Ward. Stacks with other Ward saves (except Mark of Tzeentch).
Note- these blessings do not stack with Marks of Chaos. For instance, Chaos units with the Mark of Nurgle do not get an extra -1 with the Blessing of Nurgle. However, units with Marks can receive blessings from different chaos gods.
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The Teams
Empire Chaos
General HHG General TCWarroom
Sevensins Zif
Librisrouge Rothgar
Gds1978 Noght
Harshey Grifter
George Forumite
Perforated
Forum members can join a team at any time. Just let me know and I will add you to one side or the other.
Key points:
--if you join a team, then only view that team’s tactics thread
--if you are reading both tactics threads, then you can’t join a team, and please refrain from posting comments in either one till the battle is over
Choices to Start:
After I create the two team threads, I need team members to jump over there and start making comments on spell choices. The initial spell rolls are there.
Also, start thinking and commenting about which side you want to pick if your team wins the roll off. I will probably make that roll tonight.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Okay, this should be fun. I like 0-4-5-6 for spells on the prince and 0 on the lvl 1 please.
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Okay, this should be fun. I like 0-4-5-6 for spells on the prince and 0 on the lvl 1 please.
Just to make sure I am tracking, you are taking:
2x Spirit Leech
Doom and Darkness
Fate of Bunja
Purple Sun
We rolled:
Lvl 4
Shem's Gaze
Speed of Light
Banishment
Timewarp
Lvl 1
Phia's
You won the roll to pick sides.
You also won the roll to place first.
I figure we can knock out the early placement units easy- you are probably going to start with the hounds....so give me 2 of your hound placements and I will give you 2 of mine once you have picked the side.
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I'll take the side with the tower please. I need a unit of dogs on each far flank. 3x2 formation.
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TCW- Just let me know if you want me to tweak/slide the warpups at all.
Here is how it is shaping out so far:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3Dep1_zps9e755172.jpg)
Please give me your next two warhound drops and I will drop two more as well.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Angle them slightly in please and then add the other 2 units just a bit over 6in away on the flanks please, Thank you.
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I angled them in and dropped the other 2 Warhound units over 6 inches away from their buddies.
I added 2 of my drops to the map.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3Dep2_zps1fa27966.jpg)
Team Chaos is up again.. You can give me your next two, or start giving me 1 drop at a time whenever you want. No hurry.
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Hellcannon right next to the snowdrift please.
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Hellcannon right next to the snowdrift please.
Right next to it- to the east of it? Or to the south of it?
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I had to move the map. Hellcannon then chariot on left flank between dogs please.
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I had to move the map. Hellcannon then chariot on left flank between dogs please.
No problem. I have to get up early for work, so I will update the map tomorrow and get some more of my drops on there.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Sounds good, thank you!
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Tell me if this is alright for your drops:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3Dep3_zps2793cfed.jpg)
I put down 2 drops- the Outriders.
At this point, just give me 1 drop at a time now. That gives forum members a little bit of time to provide input/discuss the last important drops.
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Just a quibble, HHG - the Hellcannon is on the OMGWTFBBQ base (100mm x 150mm).
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Warriors next to hell cannon please.
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Just a quibble, HHG - the Hellcannon is on the OMGWTFBBQ base (100mm x 150mm).
Ah, good catch. Makes it easier to shoot and hit!
Updated map with Nurgle Warriors and STank. You are up again- no rush, take your time.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3Dep4_zps6e46661f.jpg)
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HHG, what is the formation of the Nurgle Warriors?
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HHG, what is the formation of the Nurgle Warriors?
6 wide.
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perfect for the warriors. forgot about the knights. knights next to the warriors please.
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perfect for the warriors. forgot about the knights. knights next to the warriors please.
3x2 or 6x1?
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6 wide if they fit please.
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Chaos Knights are 6x1 and I added some Archers.
Your drop again!
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3Dep5_zpsa0cb18df.jpg)
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Chariot in between dog units on right please.
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Your chariot is on the board.
Empire GS and Halb det, finally on the board.
Your Chimera is up next.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3Dep6_zps903de1e4.jpg)
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Chimera behind Hell cannon angled slightly to the left so he is hidden from a cannon shot please.
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Chimera behind Hell cannon angled slightly to the left so he is hidden from a cannon shot please.
I think this is what you are envisioning.
I put my AL & BSB on the east end of the GS, and the 2 Wizards and WH in the Archers by the Idol.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3Dep7_zps356c78d1.jpg)
Your characters are up and then deployment is a wrap.
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We are almost there! I would like the lvl 1 on the left corner of the warriors. The bsb 1 inch behind the warriors leaving the knights, warriors and chimera in range. The prince behind the tower to the right to avoid a cannonball if possible?
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Let me know if this is good.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3DepFinal_zps24ef2297.jpg)
I just want to get with my team on how we want to Vanguard. Once that is done, probably by tonight, I will roll to see who starts this party!
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Here is our Vanguard:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3Van_zps3169012a.jpg)
The WH charged your Lvl1 Death Mage of Heresy.
Empire rolled a 6+1 for the 1st turn, beating Chao's roll of 3. Empire has the 1st turn.
The Chaos Idol radiates Nurgle's Blessing for Turn 1.
The STank generates 4 Steam with no issues.
Getting with my team to decide our 1st turn movement.
Let's get this rumble started!
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Woohoo! Good luck!
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Woohoo! Good luck!
Team Empire tips their feathered-hats to Team Chaos and prepares for battle!
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Winter Forge T1 Movement:
No charges.
STank gets an 11 on 2 Steam and moves straight towards the Hellcannon.
Here is what we did for movement:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T1WFPoss_zpsb11a74d8.jpg)
Winter Forge T1 Magic:
The Winds are strong up here in the snowy mountains: Empire rolls double 5s and gets 1 channel.
11PD to 5DD.
The Light Battle Wiz Lord starts things off with a 3 dice Banishment on the Hellcannon- getting a 10+4=14.
Dispel response?
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All 5 dice please.
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All 5 dice please.
Easily dispelled, 16+4=20.
Next the Wiz casts a 3 dice Birona's Timewarp on the STank and gets a whopping 16+4=20. (Rolled 2x 5s and a 6!)
Dispel choice?
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...Wait, how did 10+4=17? Something funky happened here - was it 13+4=17, or 10+4=14? Because that might affect TCW's dispel strategy.
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...Wait, how did 10+4=17? Something funky happened here - was it 13+4=17, or 10+4=14? Because that might affect TCW's dispel strategy.
This. :icon_question:
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...Wait, how did 10+4=17? Something funky happened here - was it 13+4=17, or 10+4=14? Because that might affect TCW's dispel strategy.
This. :icon_question:
Um, it is just a typo. It should be 10+4=14.
If it confused the team, you can change the dice roll if you want.
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So....waiting on confirmation of:
--do you want to keep the original dispel roll on the Banishment, or reduce the amount of dice and try your luck again? The total was 14.
--then your dispel choice on the Timewarp roll. The total was 20.
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Thats fine. I will use scroll on timewarp.
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Completing Winter Forge T1 Magic:
Banishment on the Hellcannon was dispelled with Dispel Dice.
Timewarp on the STank was dispelled by a scroll.
Next, the Battle Wiz Lord tosses a 5 dice boosted Shem’s Gaze at the Hellcannon and it goes off on 24+4=28. No IF.
Since it is Daemonic, Shem’s 2d6 roll for hits gets 8. The spell wounds on 4 and the Hellcannon makes no Ward Saves. All of the wounds hit the Hellcannon, not the Handlers. It has 1 wound remaining.
Winter Forge T1 Shooting:
The STank fires up its boiler and gets a 6 & 6 for the cannonball aiming 10 inches off the back of the Hellcannon. The shot wounds the Hell, it again fails its WS, and the wound hits the monster, not the handlers. Hellcannon is destroyed. The shot nicks the Chimera which gets wounded, but it successfully regens. It takes no damage.
The Chimera failed its first Panic test, but makes the reroll. The Warriors and BSB also hold.
Outrider1 was my favorite unit in the last TEG, but in round 1 of this one they sucked- they only killed 1 Warhound in Warhound1….not even causing a Panic test. :unsure:
Outrider2 fired a volley at the Nurgle Warriors, killing 2 Warriors.
Out of all the Archers, only the far east Archers got another kill- they killed 1 Warhound in Warhound3. (How can 5 Archers get the same result as 6 Outriders….???)
Here is how it looks:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T1WFWrapup_zps0aa0cc74.jpg)
Not a bad first turn for Empire. We had a chance to ninja that Chimera this turn, either by wounds or Panic, but it just didn’t pan out.
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Team Chaos- you are up. To assist you in planning your movement:
--All the Empire units west of the idol are 18+ inches away from Warhounds and Chariot. You will need 11s to charge with the Chariot.
--Chimera has no charge options.
--Nothing in charge range for the Warriors.
--The Chaos Knights are just over 10 inches away from the ICK, 18+ inches away from the small Archer det.
--The DP cannot see the ICK due to the Tower so it has no charge options at the moment.
--Warhound 3 can see the ICK.
--The ICK does not fall in the forward arch of the east Chariot so it cannot charge.
I can zoom in on any part of the map and give you a graph showing LOS, forward arcs, etc if you can’t visualize what I am describing above.
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I made a graph labeling each 12” square with a letter and then breaking it into 4 sub-squares with a number.
After charges are worked out, use the labeling system to help me get the units where you want them. In my experience, the first couple turns of a TEG/TDG are the toughest because there are so many units.
Give me approximate distance the unit will move, the grid square it will end up in, and what direction it is facing using a clock face.
For example: Warhounds 3 will move 14 inches, ending in L3 behind the ICK, facing 10 o’clock.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T1CDStart_zps1ae45006.jpg)
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Hey HHG, did you check whether any of those hits from Shem's tagged any of the Hellcannon's handlers (which happens on a 5+)? I don't think it would change the outcome, but you never know...
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Hey HHG, did you check whether any of those hits from Shem's tagged any of the Hellcannon's handlers (which happens on a 5+)? I don't think it would change the outcome, but you never know...
Great question- none of the 4 wounds from Shem's hit the Handlers, nor the cannonball hit. I will update the original post.
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Shem's does D6 S6 (boosted) and D6 S4 (lore attribute). Not all the hits are at the boosted Str.
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Why aren't the lore attribute hits boosted? It just says it does an additional D6
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As Harshey says:
BRB p. 495: If a spell from the Lore of Light inflicts a number of hits on an enemy unit, it will cause an extra D6 hits (e.g. 2D6 hits would become 3D6 hits) if the target is Undead or a Daemon.
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Its Heavens vs. Flyers that restricts the extra hits to strength 4. Light just gives more hits.
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Its Heavens vs. Flyers that restricts the extra hits to strength 4. Light just gives more hits.
Aye. The boosted Shems is at Str6.
1d6 for the spell plus 1d6 for the Lore attribute came out this time as 8 Str 6 hits, 4 wounds, no Ward saves, no Handlers hit = 4 wounds on the Hellcannon itself.
The STAnk's cannonball wounded, no Ward save, no Handler hit and got 1 wound.
All the above = dead Hellcannon.
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Thankfully a bit of luck for us in that regard. Pulled off the exact minimum to take that blasted thing out.
Of course, that is somewhat offset by the abysmal work of our other firepower.
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Knights charge ic knights please.
Just to make sure as it is confusing. Wounds are scored, wards are made, wounds are randomized. Not a single 5+ out of 10 dice on that bad boy to keep it on the table?
So the first 4 hits scored wounds at strength 6. Roll 4 5+ ward saves then any unsaved are rolled again to see who gets hit. If I got no 5s I got no 5s but those rolls happen twice.
I did make a re rollable 5 on the Chimera so my dice are as they are in real life!
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Knights charge ic knights please.
Just to make sure as it is confusing. Wounds are scored, wards are made, wounds are randomized. Not a single 5+ out of 10 dice on that bad boy to keep it on the table?
So the first 4 hits scored wounds at strength 6. Roll 4 5+ ward saves then any unsaved are rolled again to see who gets hit. If I got no 5s I got no 5s but those rolls happen twice.
I did make a re rollable 5 on the Chimera so my dice are as they are in real life!
Yep. Out of 8 hits, we scored 4 wounds (statistically average). But out of five total 5+ Wards tries and five total 5+ "hit handler" tries you made zero, where you should have made about 3.
I can post the Dicelog entries if you want to see them (by the way, Noght is in the Dicelog with me).
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The ICK choose to Flee and go 6 inches away.
You will need to roll 10 to catch them. Re-direct or do you want to complete the charge?
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No worries.
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Ill try and redirect please.
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Ill try and redirect please.
Leadership test to redirect successful. The Knights and Archer det are about the same charge distance away- but making the Archer charge would put you in the snow drift so I aimed you towards the Knights.
Failed charge, you swing and go forward 6 inches.
Ready for your next movement instructions.
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Warhound 3 will charge the same knights and push them further back.
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If nothing is in range after that for warhound 4 I would like to move them up 13 inches from the small archer unit.
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Warhound 3 pushes the ICK away from them since they are already fleeing and the ICK roll a 10 on the flee...which bounces them right over the Archer Regt and they stop 1 inch behind it.
The Archer Regt makes its Panic test.
Warhound 3 moves forward 6 inches on a failed charge.
Warhound 4 moves up and stops 13 inches away from the small Archer det.
Here is what it looks like to help you visualize it. At this point, give me everything you have for movement. I will post a draft, you can tweak it if you need too...and then we are ready to move on. Try to use the grid system I gave you to make it easier.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T1CDStart3_zpse9f395de.jpg)
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Okay. East chariot up 8 inches angled towards the left.
Warhound 1- just over 16 inches from knights, same for left chariot.
Warhound 2- wheel right just north of the drift angled towards the stank
Demon prince fly over to R1 Q2 area angled towards GS keeping within 6in of the tower by the slightest amount
Nurgle warriors forward and wheel towards stank staying 16in away
BSB to K3 area out of los of knights angled towards GS trying to stay over 12in from stank
Chimera towards Q2 angled slightly towards GS trying to stay out of los knight unit
Whew! That should do it!
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Let me know what you think.
The Nurgle Warriors successfully conducted a swift reform to get where you wanted- the Knights were in their way for the wheel initially.
I didn''t have any issues with anything but the Chimera- I couldn't fly him 20 inches and stay out of the Knights LOS. I moved him as far as I could and just put the BSB south just a little bit to be in the Knight's charge lanes- basically preventing a Knight charge on the Chimera. Hopefully this works for you.
:::cheers:::
HHG
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T1CDStart4_zpsd0537cdd.jpg)
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I like it. Thanks.
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Awesome!
Lets keep this moving!
Creeping Death Winds of Magic for T1:
You get a 6&2 for Winds. Empire scores 2 channels to even it up.
8PD to 8DD.
First spell?
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3 dice doom on knights.
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3 dice doom on knights.
Knight2?
You got a decent roll- 12+4=16. I am asking my Team what they think.
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The big block in front of me.
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The big block in front of me.
Okay, just making sure. I will let it go.
5PD to 8DD. Next spell!
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The big block in front of me.
Okay, just making sure. I will let it go.
5PD to 8DD. Next spell!
No fleeing ICK! The runners!
Reconsider dispel?
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The big block in front of me.
Okay, just making sure. I will let it go.
5PD to 8DD. Next spell!
No fleeing ICK! The runners!
Reconsider dispel?
That is not what he said.
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5 dice purple sun. Small one
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Since we haven't moved on yet, if you want to switch from Knight2 to the ICK because some of your team mates suggest it, that is fine. If you need time to discuss it, cool. If you want to stick with your decision, cool.
I just need one final answer- then I will post my dispel decision.
HHG
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TCW made his choice, I misread the plan.....
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I think it's okay. I misunderstood at first but I think both options are good.
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So....just to be sure- you are sticking with the original plan.
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Yup.
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Yup.
Okay....no problemo.
Doom and Dark went off on Knight2.
Your 5 dice small P Sun got 15+4=19.
Empire tosses all 8 DD on it and got 26+4=30. Dispelled.
Unless I am missing something, you don't have any shooting. Turn 2 is next!
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Sounds good!
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Just to get us started:
Winter Forge T2 Start of Turn:
Chaos Idol gives off Blessing of Tzeentch this Turn.
The STank generates 4 Steam with no issues.
Knight 1 declares a charge against Slaan Chariot 1. Needs to get a 10. I assume you are going to hold, but just in case, charge reaction?
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Yeah. I will hold.
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Yeah. I will hold.
Almost got it on a 9. Failed charge, they go forward 5 inches.
Gonna do something a little unconventional- Outrider 1 declares a charge against Warhound 2. Charge reaction?
Also, to speed thing up, Knight 2 declares a charge against the BSB. Charge reaction on that one too...
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WoC don't flee! Hold all around.
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This is a bit nitpicky, but important:
You should declare all your charges, and do reactions, before rolling to determine the distance for any.
It's nitpicky but we should all be used to this for tourneys. No opportunity to see whether one charge connects before deciding another.
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Not so much nitpicky as the rules. :icon_wink:
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Not so much nitpicky as the rules. :icon_wink:
Well that's fair, but I know many of us mostly play friendly battles where such things might be a bit more... flexible. :::cheers:::
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Not so much nitpicky as the rules. :icon_wink:
Well that's fair, but I know many of us mostly play friendly battles where such things might be a bit more... flexible. :::cheers:::
What you describe is the way I play.
Sometimes I mess up when doing the administration of TEG/TDGs. It is never intentional or done for some alternative purpose.
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This turn has ended up being terrible for me so far. When I need to roll high, I rolled low. When I needed to roll low, I rolled high. :eusa_wall:
As I posted previously, Idol is giving off the Blessing of Tzeentch.
STank generated 4 Steam.
Knight 1 failed a charge against Slaan Chariot 1. It was a long shot, no biggie.
Outrider 1 failed a charge against Warhound 2. It was not a long shot (only needed slightly more than 12 inches for the roll and got 2x 2s resulting in 12). :eusa_wall:
Knight2 successfuly charged the BSB.
The ICK needed a 9 to rally (8+1 for musician) and rolled an 11. They go off the board. :eusa_wall:
The STank pivots towards the DP and spends 1 Steam to go forward an inch.
The small Archer det made a Leadership test to march, and the GS successfully made a swift reform into a bus and moved a little.
In the GS, Gen and BSB are front row south end. In the Wiz bunker, WH in the west, Lvl1 middle, Lvl4 east on the front row.
Here is how it looks in the end:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T2WFFinal_zps07a2beaf.jpg)
Winter Forge T2 Magic:
Empire rolled a 5&2 for Winds. No channels either side.
7PD to 5DD.
The WH, exactly 24 inches away from Warhound 2, "fires" up his Ruby Ring on 1 die and gets a 3. Successful cast.
Dispel choice?
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Any consensus in Team Chaos? Has TCW given his opinion in the Chaos thread?
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There's consensus all right, but the president is absent.
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There's consensus all right, but the president is absent.
Okay, I will just have to be patient. :icon_cool:
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Wow, I was hoping for the knights to go off. Sorry about the bad rolls. I will let it go.
Its hard to tell by the charts, does the WH have LOS to those hounds?
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It looks like it would be obscured by the steam tank, but they only need to see one model.
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It looks like it would be obscured by the steam tank, but they only need to see one model.
The Steam Tank doesn´t block line of sight, but the terrain does. The Witch Hunter is on the other side of a hill from the warhounds, he can´t see them.
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You are right about the hill. We'll have to modify our spell.
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So I am going to complain just one more time about this crappy turn and then shut up. Empire’s luck was abysmal.
:eusa_wall: :eusa_wall: :eusa_wall: :eusa_wall: One more. :eusa_wall: Okay, it is out of my system. Nope- one more. :eusa_wall:
Completing Winter Forge T2 Magic:
The Witch Hunter is on the other side of a hill from the warhounds, he can´t see them.
Yep. The WH can’t see the Warhounds due to the terrain. When I was looking at the shot, it was in Battle Chronicler. The terrain isn’t overlaid until I put it into powerpoint and I didn’t notice the mistake after I made the .jpg for the thread.
No big deal, we will just call it a wasted die since I already rolled it and I am the host of the TEG and I made the mistake. The WH fired the magic missile “into the darkness” for those D&D nerds out there that can recognize the reference
The Wiz Lord tosses the last 6 dice on a boosted Banishment getting 21+4=25. Chaos tosses its 5 dispel dice on it and gets 14+4=18. The spell goes off.
15 hits, 1 lost due to Charmed Shield, 6 wounds at Str5, 5 AS made, no WS made. DP only takes 1 wound.
Winter Forge T2 Shooting:
Tank fires up the boiler for a cannon shot and suffers a misfire. STank suffers 2 wounds.
The Outriders go ahead and shoot at the closest target- the DP. They hit with the average, but fall woefully short on wounding. No effect.
All the Archers that fire only manage to kill 1 Warhound in Warhound 4. It has 4 remaining.
Winter Forge T2 Combat:
The Knights fail their fear test.
The Disc manages to get a unsaved wound, killing 1 Knight. The Knights fail to get through all the BSB’s saves and have no effect.
The BSB wails on the Knights and they fail 3 armour saves. 3 Knights die.
Of course, the Knights fail their Break test.
To make matters worse, the Archers behind Panic and flee 8 inches, bouncing over the STank.
I could see no reason why you wouldn’t want to pursue at this point since nothing is blocking your way. The Knights go 6 inches and the BSB catches them moving forward a full 12 inches.
Here is how it looks:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T2WFWrapup_zpsa78fb120.jpg)
I don’t think that turn could have gone any worse than it did. All the Empire maneuvering failed and our damage output was pathetic.
Let’s see what you can do with it Team Chaos. Preparing for your massive amount of charges….
Try to give me as many charge declarations as you can so we don’t have to pause a half a day between each charge and charge response. I understand some charge decisions will be based on what happens with other charges, but just try to clump them as best you can so we can keep this pain train moving.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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This is going to hurt... :ph34r:
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This is going to hurt... :ph34r:
Hopefully, if Nurgle permits it! :icon_smile:
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It's possible the nuking of the hell cannon first turn might be your only luck. You never know though. I hate dice!
Left chariot on outriders or knights, what's the distances?
BSB on fleeing archers redirecting into the other archers.
Chimera into outriders.
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Left Chariot is 13 inches fomr the Knights, 14 inches from the Outriders.
BSB to Archer det makes them flee over the top of the GS and end up on the other side. GS make a Panic test.
BSB fails the first roll to re-direct, but makes the reroll.
Archer Regt Stands and Shoots. No effect.
The Outriders fail their Terror test from the Chimera and run away 9 inches.
What next?
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15 hits, 1 lost due to Charmed Shield, 6 wounds at Str5, 5 AS made, no WS made. DP only takes 1 wound.
This is why I don't like MR. Even when you actually get the benefit against magic missiles it doesn't help.
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That chariot will go after the outriders.
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The big whiff. Classic Empire...
I don't see what we should have done differently other than maybe not charging with the outriders, but that was almost an auto charge and the one wasted power dice, but that was hard to see online vs in person; could have cast light of battle on the knights but they failed their fear test anyways.
That DP could very easily be dead right now, and the BSB could have easily whiffed against the knights.
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Could have? Sure.
Easily? Don´t think so.
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Could have? Sure.
Easily? Don´t think so.
I never expected to take off the DP in one volley. One of the primary reasons we set up with way we did was to get 3 rounds of magic/shooting in before the big nasties hit our lines.
I did, however, expect to do some damage in 3 rounds- but with 2 rounds of basically ineffective attrition and pretty much poor leadership rolls all across the board we might not even get a third turn to try and put out damage.
It is what it is. Sometimes things work out and luck is on your side, sometimes it isn't.
That chariot will go after the outriders.
I am making the assumption that the Chimera is not going to redirect since you went to a different unit and are declaring a charge.
The Outrider Flee and bounce over the GS and end up on the other side. The GS already made a Panic test this turn.
The only charge left in decent range for the Chariot is the Knights, so I am made an assumption you would re-direct on them.
You made a successful Leadership test to re-direct. Going with the Empire theme this turn, the Knights also decide to Flee and go 8 inches away. They are still on the board, barely.
What next?
Here is a graph to help you visualize the "National Empire Flee Party:"
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T2WFWorking_zps062eeafd.jpg)
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Do war hounds 1 have a legal charge on the knights?
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Do war hounds 1 have a legal charge on the knights?
Nope- it is just over 19 inches.
Let me know if you need any other ranges.
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Does the DP have a legal charge on fleeing outriders?
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Does the DP have a legal charge on fleeing outriders?
Yes.
Also, the DP cannot reach the Wiz Bunker and need a 10 to reach the STank.
--------------------------------
Try to ask multiple questions at one time for me.
We need to find the sweet spot- giving you every single range on the board up front is tedious, but going back and forth on individual model distances takes too long.
So for this turn, ask me all the questions you have at the moment for distances, LOS, etc.
And for your next movement phase, give me a list up front of all the distances you care about when we start working out charge distances/reactions.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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On the right flank, can the two units of warhounds and the chariot charge anything? It looks like the rightmost warhounds could do a long charge against the 5-man unit of archers.
Distances I want to know:
WH2 to Steam Tank
Leftmost Chariot to Halberdiers
Rightmost Chariot to the two small Archer units
Chimera to Wizardbunker and Greatswords
DP to Wizardbunker and Greatswords
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On the right flank, can the two units of warhounds and the chariot charge anything? It looks like the rightmost warhounds could do a long charge against the 5-man unit of archers.
You have identified the only charge available over there- Warhound 4 versus the Archer Det.
The Warhounds would need a 12 to make it, however.
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On the right flank, can the two units of warhounds and the chariot charge anything? It looks like the rightmost warhounds could do a long charge against the 5-man unit of archers.
You have identified the only charge available over there- Warhound 4 versus the Archer Det.
The Warhounds would need a 12 to make it, however.
Not worth it.
I edited in a few distances that I think are relevant for our movement phase.
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Distances I want to know:
WH2 to Steam Tank 13 inches
Leftmost Chariot to Halberdiers He has already charged, redirected, and charged. But, the answer is 18 inches.
Rightmost Chariot to the two small Archer units 23 inches to Archer Regt, 22 inches to det
Chimera to Wizardbunker and Greatswords Out of range and already declared a charge. 25 & 31, respectively.
DP to Wizardbunker and Greatswords Out of range. 23 inches & 32, respectively.
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Okay no more charges so failed charges can do so.
War hound 2 moves to one inch on flank of stank to force it forwards.
War hound 1 will move either towards the stank if the chariot goes far enough or up towards the lank of the halberd det.
Warriors wheel slightly to left and get wizard within 12 of stank
Knights move with them staying out of the Stanks ability to charge.
Demon prince flies towards the archers the bsb charged keeping stank and gs in front arc and stank within 12in
War hound 3 will go up wheel left and head towards stank staying south of its path
East chariot will go 8 towards larger archer group and dogs will go towards small unit staying 13 in away
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How is this:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T2WFFinal_zps7ee22434.jpg)
West Slaan chariot and Chimera each go forward 5 inches on failed charges.
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Looks good
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Creeping Death T2 Magic:
Chaos gets a 5 & 3 for Winds. No channels.
First spell?
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2 dice spirit leach on stank from dp
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2 dice Spirit Leech nets 4+4=8.
2 dice dispel gets 9+4=13. Dispelled.
Next spell?
6PD versus 3DD
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Same from Lvl1
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Same from Lvl1
2 dice Spirit Leech from the Lvl1 gets snake eyes. Fails to go off.
4PD to 3DD.
Next spell?
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4 dice p sun from DP, small one
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4 dice p sun from DP, small one
Some of my luck is rubbing off on you I think. DP gets 8=4=12. Fails to go off.
Creeping Death T2 Combat:
BSB has to challenge. WH accepts.
WH has no effect.
Disc has no effect. BSB gets 2 wounds. Wins combat by 3.
Archers need a 6 to hold. Fail on a 7 and then fail again on the reroll with another 7.
Do you want to pursue with the BSB?
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Distance off board?
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I get a roll on the table for killing the WH too please.
I this trance off is average ill hold, if not, I will chase.
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7 inches will take you off the board. If I am readying you correctly, you are holding.
The Archers flee of the table.
Eye of the Gods roll is a 7.
Here is how it looks at the end:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T2CDWrapup_zps16be9916.jpg)
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I like it. Thanks!
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Winter Forge T3 Start of Turn:
The Chaos Idol gives off Khorne's Blessing.
STank generates 4 Steam, no issues.
Winter Forge T3 Movement:
GS declare a charge against the BSB. Charge reaction?
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What is the distance to the outriders. Basically my chances of going off the board.
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What is the distance to the outriders. Basically my chances of going off the board.
You're not in much danger of fleeing off the board - you're pivoting to face him instead of the other way around, so you'd flee across the Outriders, take a handful of DT tests, and pop out the other side.
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What is the distance to the outriders. Basically my chances of going off the board.
You're not in much danger of fleeing off the board - you're pivoting to face him instead of the other way around, so you'd flee across the Outriders, take a handful of DT tests, and pop out the other side.
You face directly away from the center of the GS and then flee.
Based on this, there is no chance of you going off the board.
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Flee with the BSB.
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Flee with the BSB.
Yeah, I couldn't imagine any reason on why you would hold.
Working up Empire's Movement now.
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Winter Forge Turn 3:
All Empire forces around the Chaos Idol make their Frenzy rolls and do not have to charge.
Movement:
The GS declares a charge on the Chaos BSB. He decides to Flee and again gets 12 inches on a movement roll. He makes a DT test zooming over the Outriders and ends up on the other side. The GS move 3 inches forward on a failed charge.
No other charges.
All Empire forces make their rally rolls. (With our previous luck in this department, this is a miracle.)
The STank spends 1 Steam and moves forward 4 inches.
Here is how it looks when Empire is done maneuvering:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T3WFFinal_zps257397bb.jpg)
Winter Forge T3 Magic:
Empire gets a 6&1 for Winds of Magic. Chaos gets 1 channel.
7PD versus 7DD.
The AL tosses a 6 dice Hammers of Sigmar and gets 24.
Dispel response?
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This isn't that hard of a choice. Throw 5 dice and hope for 6s, dispel the next prayer with 2 dice and level 2.
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Finishing Winter Forge T3 Magic:
Chaos tosses 5 dice to dispel and gets 2x6s. Dispelled.
Of course, it easily dispels Shield of Faith on 2 dispel dice as well.
Winter Forge T3 Shooting:
The Archers out west all shoot at Warhound 4 and finally kill a Warhound forcing a Panic test. The Warhounds fail the test and flee 12 inches, off the board.
The STank fires up its boiler and shoots a cannonball with 1 Steam 10 inches off the back of the Chimera base. It gets 8 inches and 6 inches on the bounce and hits. The cannonball wounds, the Chimera fails its Regen save, and takes 4 wounds. The Chimera dies!
Warhound 3 fails its Panic test and flees away from the dead Chimera 8 inches. Chaos Knights make their Panic test.
The STank isn’t finished yet. The Engie and his Steam Gun at Str3 waste all the Warhounds! Warhound 2 destroyed.
Here is how it looks:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T3WFWrapup_zps6ed088ef.jpg)
Wow. A much better turn than last turn. Empire is still at an extreme disadvantage, but things have tightened up!
Creeping Death is up. Some measurements to assist you:
--West Slaan Chariot needs 16 inches to reach Knight1 and 11 inches to the Halb det.
--Nurgle Warriors are 10 inches from the STank.
--Chaos Knights are 11 inches from the STank.
--DP is 16 inches from the GS.
--East Slaan Chariot is 20 inches from the Archer Regt.
I don't think I am giving anything away by saying that I don't see a single unit of mine deciding to flee at the moment- so give me all your charges at once so we can proceed.
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Wait, sry, meeting in the chaos room.
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This is what I would like to do because I want to have fun. There may be better options but this is no tournament and we all want to see what this stuff can do. If there are no strong objections I would like the DP to charge the GS. The left chariot to hit the knights. The left hounds to maneuver towards the rear of the GS.
The right chariot to move closer to big archers.
The warriors to march up and stay 1 inch from stank on its right flank. If thy can not block it the knights should be able to with a march move. If that is the case, move warriors towards halberdier detachment.
If bsb rallies, turn to face archers with wizard in it to try and guarantee a charge with either the chariot or the bsb.
That's about it.
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The charge of the west chariot on the Knights looks iffy. Aren't the dogs in the way?
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The charge of the west chariot on the Knights looks iffy. Aren't the dogs in the way?
If they pivot east to clear the dogs and then go straight forward, they clip the Knights.
Creeping Death T3 Movement:
Chariot charges Knight1. This Chaos army likes to go fast- again you get boxcars on a movement roll.
DP makes a successful charge against the GS.
BSB rallies. Warhound3 fails to rally goes forward 10 inches.
Chaos Knights head west and stop with their flank parallel to the STank.
Nurgle Warriors perform a swift reform and join the Knights, heading west.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TEG3T3CDPoss2_zps6cf2a9f4.jpg)
Creeping Death T3 Magic:
Chaos gets a 3 & 2 for Winds. No channels.
5PD to 3DD.
First spell?
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5 dice psun
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5 dice psun
Can't say that I am surprised.
Boosted or non-boosted? Make sure you specify.
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Non-boosted will hit every 20mm base.....
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Sorry, non.
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It will if you don't misfire...
Make it so HHG :biggriin:
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Remainder of Creeping Death T3 Magic Phase:
Not a great roll on 5 dice= 13+4=17 for the P Sun.
But it was enough- 3DD netted 13.
No misfire, spell goes forward 6 inches. But again, it is enough to hit all the GS.
AL lives. BSB dies. And a crazy 23 out of 41 GS get sucked in to the abyss.
The DP gets 26 tries for more powerdice and nets 7.
I went ahead and rolled your next spells- not being rocket science here.
A 3 dice Doom and Dark on the GS goes off.
A 2 dice Spirit Leech kills the Sharpshooter in Outrider 1.
A 2 dice Spirit Leech from the Lvl1 kills a poor Halb (to add insult to injury)
Creeping Death T3 Combat Phase:
Without describing all the details, the Chariot causes Knight1 to Break and they run off the board.
The GS Champ challenges the DP and dies for his arrogance.
The GS have to make a Stubborn Break test on 9 -3 for D&D. Of course they fail and break.
The GS run a paltry 2 inches away. The DP purses 10 inches and kills them all.
---------------------------------------------------
Needless to say, time to concede on TEG3.
Congrats to TCW and his Chaos Team.
I will have more after action comments when I am not so tired- but needless to say, you can't even have one bad turn against a nasty list like this. Once the avalanche starts to fall, you can get snowed under very quick.
I still learned a lot from this TEG even though it was short. I was already working some tweaks to my list and this TEG has only confirmed them for me.
Don't leave these threads now! We need your thoughts and after action comments- one of the most important parts of the TEGs/TDGs!
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Thanks HHG, I saw the Dicelog earlier and was astonished on how well the PSun worked out.
I need to re-read everything.
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Wow. And that's the first time I've ever seen purple sun really do something. That was incredible.
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OUCH! Congratulations Team Chaos, you've earned it.
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Well played! Congratulations on the win.
One of the first and primary lessons of this exercise for me can be summed up in one word: Flyers. HHG did mention it before if memory serves me right. The Griffon is pretty good at delaying ground-based units whatever their strengths may be. Nurgle Warriors, Chaos Knights, Hellthis and Hellthat on foot or hoove will have to deal with diversions and all this stuff. Flyers not only can ignore it by flying over but they also have a great deal of mobility and speed. If someone like you guys did doesn't just rush in but keeps his head, bides his time, tries to get rid of targets of opportunity and so on, he's dialing the pressure up, fast. I'm actually tempted to call for one more warmachine. I fully realize it is a static element and as such not all that well-designed to fit with the Griffon but it can stay back, protected by the GS or Stank or some Knights (or not at all), and prevent the opposition from advancing slowly and methodically.
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Well, that was an odd game. Over real quick in the end.
I´m puzzled by some of Team Empire´s decisions (like placement of GS, not protecting the STank´s flanks, etc.) so I´m looking forward to read through that thread now to see what the thought process was. I can think of some things I would have done differently, but I´m not sure it would have made a difference in the end.
I´m still extremely underwhelmed by Outriders and don´t see the appeal. I also think the Empire list has to many tricks, not enough meat, especially against a list like this that is tricksy as well, but just does it better then Empire can. Another solid combat unit (Helbards, STank, Demi´s or bigger ICK) would allow for a more solid battle line.
HHG, care to elaborate on how you usually win with this list?
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I'm actually tempted to call for one more warmachine.
I kind of agree with this. I suspect that HHG envisioned the Outriders in that roll though.
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I suppose. However, OR suffer from being relatively static while spitting out less damage. I personally prefer to run them not as a substitute for WM but as a complement to the army, and in this role give them a champion with repeater pistol. It's often considered ineffective as it dilutes their one role but being able to run up and out of the charge arc of those chariots, inbetween the enemy units and still have enough firepower to kill and rout some hounds, this time making them flee straight through the Chaos lines gives one a lot of flexibility.
As to deployment, the wizard bunker was a fat target. I didn't realize this myself until it was too late. I think any secondary wizard should go into another unit or heck, even run on its own.
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The STank isn’t finished yet. The Engie and his Steam Gun at Str3 waste all the Warhounds! Warhound 2 destroyed.
AFAIK all the shooting weapons in a unit have to have a chance of hitting the same target as per BRB. Steam tank is not able to split fire like that.
As for the game. This was a demonstration how fantasy magic is ruining WHFB :)
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I think there were a few problems with the Empire list and deployment.
List: Lack of cannons. With the prevalence of big nasty monsters, chariots, cavalry and solo characters, only taking 1 cannon is a recipe for disaster. I don't even like to consider the steam tank a cannon in this list, it is much better as a beat stick. Empire simply does not have an answer for Daemon Princes that isn't a cannon.
Outriders. Just not that great.
Greatswords. Love the models, even like the unit. I think they can serve a good role, even as the centerpiece of the army. But they are expensive and only better than halberds in a few specific circumstances. For the points you pay they're best left at home in a competitive list.
Deployment: HHG spread out too much and isolated his greatswords behind the chaos idol. That let us have the run of the field. It also limited the effect his BSB and General would have on the game. Small knight units need that leadership bubble.
Movement: The Chaos forces won this battle on movement. They were able to get into position to execute charges, forcing the Empire units to flee. In a fight between chariots and knights the charger wins.
Dice: Were definitely a problem.
You were also facing a very tough Chaos list. I'll say it again: Empire has no answer for a Daemon Prince that isn't cannons. The DP and BSB won the game for Chaos. I'm tempted to call them overpowered, but I know how many points they cost. A 500 point Daemon Prince and 300 point BSB should be tough to take down.
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Good Game. The power of this list is speed. The weakness is the DP. 3 cannons and things might change but you only 1or 2 chances before he is destroying units. My buddy never faced a cannon based army.
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The DP and BSB won the game for Chaos. I'm tempted to call them overpowered, but I know how many points they cost. A 500 point Daemon Prince and 300 point BSB should be tough to take down.
The TZ BSB (any TZ character actually) is so OP it's crazy. It's worse than the unkillable Dreadlord. High armor save, 3+ Ward, re-roll 1's Ward is beyond stupid. It's not tough, it's impossible to take down, only danger is Combat Resolution but a WOC player would be insane to stick it in a combat with ranked troops.
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The WoC characters are rock solid, a DP singlehandedly tking out a GS horde kind of illustrates this :eusa_wall:
Best bet against that bsb? I don't know, a lucky banishment?
Mobility, and especially flyers, became a key point here as well as our inability to hit anything with shooting.... Loosing the bunker was also a huge factor.
Captasi might help a bit in this regard.
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A couple of comments, based on your comments.
I am always tweaking my "Griffon" lists. In this set, I was experimenting with Outriders to see if they filled a niche I wanted them to fill. They did okay in TEG2, but they failed miserably in TEG3.
By the time TEG2 was over, I had taken out one unit of Outriders in my running list. Even before TEG3 was over, I took the other one out.
Grifter- just check out my Griffon BATREP thread to see how I win with the Griffon. Even with bad dice rolls in some games, I consistently win. As LSP pointed out, it is all about managing the battle and supporting the GS until they are joined in battle.
New Warrios of Chaos is currently my bane. As I mentioned in the beginning of TEG3, the new book is forcing me to adapt/change my list due to what I call "the monster flying circus." I think it is almost a sad state of affairs the "Warriors" of Chaos has now become "Fliers" of Chaos.
Adding a cannon or two is probably the easiest solution- but I always try to experiment with multiple ways to deal with a problem set (in this case, trying to lowball a "Coven of Light" theme with only 2 Wizards and Str5 Banishment and the addition of multiple Outriders). It was not enough. This army did okay in TEG2 but got rocked in TEG3.
I have some more ideas I am going to playtest against my son who is currently toying around with WoC- we have some epic battles on the weekends. I have tried out cannons before against the Flying Monster Circus and frankly they are not always reliable. As any Empire player knows, sometimes they are crazy good, but as often as not, they under perform. I think I am going to add one more cannon back into my list but I don't plan to it as "the answer."
On a side note- I have tried adding a WAltar and Demis as another combat block to spread out the combat power. What I found against a WoC list like this is the fliers ignore the Greatswords and go straight for the Demis. Demis are great...but they can't stand up to the flying monster circus. Even when I kept the GS and Demis as close together as possible, my Warriors opponents have enough speed to throw something in the way of the GS so they can't some to the rescue of the Demis. Points become really tight here too- the GS numbers have to be reduced and the WAltar sucks up a lot of points. Usually you have to kit out the AL too- so he doesn't become easy pickings.
All this being said, the Griffon Formation is not "dead/toast"with all the new fliers and monsters, it just needs the right support.
---------------------------------------------------------------
As far as this battle, you can read our Tactical Thread to get the play-by-play of why we did what we did- we spread out, but on purpose. Getting bunched up would have hurt. We have plenty of room to flee and maneuver and the GS was somewhat "protected" behind the hill and could benefit from the Idol's buffs- two of which would have taken away the fear of your Hellcannon plus D&D leadership bomb (Khorne & Slaanish). We took a calculated risk in not having our Gen and BSB centrally deployed and it did hurt us.
Plus, we put GS apart from the archers just to throw you off for bit. This game was all about trading space for time.
The Knights charging the BSB was a gamble, but I wanted one more round of freedom of movement for the tank and that was the only way I could see to manage it. Either the Knights held, or if they didn't and the BSB pursued, he would have hit the Archer screen behind and therefore couldn't charge the STank. I am not sure if TCW was thinking about holding up the tank with the BSB, but in my previous experience, the Flying Infinite Ward Save (OP, as Noght points out) especially with a GW, is a great way to hold up the STank forever and whack on it.
If this plan had worked- we had one more turn of magic and a cannonball on the DP to take him out. It was the best we could have hoped for.
But as you know- the Knights lost, the Archers panicked, and it allowed the BSB to fly into our Wizard bunker. Hindsight being 20/20, instead of using magic to ping off the Charmed Shield on the DP we should have nuked the BSB with Banishment, maybe killing him, used the Outriders to ping off the Charmed Shield, and then hope the cannonball took out the DP. Hindsight, of course, is 20/20.
Even losing the Wizard bunker, we still would have had one more shot at the DP to maybe take most of the magic users off the board, except the Outriders got a 2,2,1 on their charge on the Warhounds. That is just plain bad luck. Sure, we could have shot the Warhounds into Oblivion but I wanted to move the Outriders into a different firing position and they should have made that easy charge.
Like I said before, one bad turn against a nasty fast list like this is all it takes- and Turn 2 was as bad as they come.
Looking forward to more comments. Keep them coming!
:::cheers:::
HHG
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New Warrios of Chaos is currently my bane. As I mentioned in the beginning of TEG3, the new book is forcing me to adapt/change my list due to what I call "the monster flying circus." I think it is almost a sad state of affairs the "Warriors" of Chaos has now become "Fliers" of Chaos.
I'm seeing a bit of a Meta change here, some Armies like WOC and DE (maybe include Ogres due to the speed of the Army) are taking so many big Nasties or Flyers, they are essentially flooding the zone, who cares if you have 3 Cannons if there are too many targets and even if you pop one or two ( say a Hellcannon and Chimera) the DP and BSB beat you singlehanded.
Let the tweaking begin...
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New Warrios of Chaos is currently my bane. As I mentioned in the beginning of TEG3, the new book is forcing me to adapt/change my list due to what I call "the monster flying circus." I think it is almost a sad state of affairs the "Warriors" of Chaos has now become "Fliers" of Chaos.
I'm seeing a bit of a Meta change here, some Armies like WOC and DE (maybe include Ogres due to the speed of the Army) are taking so many big Nasties or Flyers, they are essentially flooding the zone, who cares if you have 3 Cannons if there are too many targets and even if you pop one or two ( say a Hellcannon and Chimera) the DP and BSB beat you singlehanded.
Let the tweaking begin...
This is why I am loving playing with 4 Captasi. Each can be outfitted to answer different problems, and deployed/moved to maximum effectiveness. I'm currently working with:
1) Speculum Captasus with Speculum, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant, Warrior Bane sword
2) Fire Captasus with 2+ ward against fire
3) Magic Captasus with Ogre blade
4) BSB Captasus with Enchanted Shield and Dawnstone
These, in a list with 12 other manuver elements, add a ton of flexibility. Haven't tested against WoC yet. Planning to shortly.
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4 Cannons does the trick for me. Too much firepower for even that sort of army to ignore. :icon_wink:
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4 Cannons does the trick for me. Too much firepower for even that sort of army to ignore. :icon_wink:
Sammay and Rothgar are right. Cannons, engineers and Helbasters with pegasai should help fill the roll. The easiest way to avoid the chariots is to charge them first or block them. With pegasai you can fly next to a chariot and it'll be screwed because it cannot pivot.
I'd rather have a flying captain with 3W and a pegasai than a unit of 5 knights.
There is just way too many points in that last list, that are basically flushed down the toilet. All those archers could have been a cannon+. The outriders a helbaster + engineer +....
For big nasties like that dp, he would have a huge challenge against a helbaster or two if he was in the crossfire. The disadvantage of not being able to move and shoot (outriders) means they simply don't deserve to be fielded. Vs. the "flying chaos" circus, it was game over.
Also, light magic just isn't powerful enough even if they are daemons or undead. Go with Level 4 shadow, and level 2 shadow. So much more versatile if you have two casters with miasma. Reduce speed, ballistic skill/ws or Initiative when you need it most.
Reduce the S or T of a unit, and regular Halberdiers are suddenly very useful. T reduction is a bitch when a have a helbaster with engineer ready to fire.
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The TZ BSB (any TZ character actually) is so OP it's crazy. It's worse than the unkillable Dreadlord. High armor save, 3+ Ward, re-roll 1's Ward is beyond stupid. It's not tough, it's impossible to take down, only danger is Combat Resolution but a WOC player would be insane to stick it in a combat with ranked troops.
This.
I can honestly not fathom how any decent game designer can make an army book that includes this monstrosity. A 3+ save with rerolling 1's is just not fun anymore. Couple it with flying, and it's ridiculous.
The deamon prince (nurgle variety specifically) is also an example. Unbreakable, really? Totally uncalled for.
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The TZ BSB (any TZ character actually) is so OP it's crazy. It's worse than the unkillable Dreadlord. High armor save, 3+ Ward, re-roll 1's Ward is beyond stupid. It's not tough, it's impossible to take down, only danger is Combat Resolution but a WOC player would be insane to stick it in a combat with ranked troops.
This.
I can honestly not fathom how any decent game designer can make an army book that includes this monstrosity. A 3+ save with rerolling 1's is just not fun anymore. Couple it with flying, and it's ridiculous.
The deamon prince (nurgle variety specifically) is also an example. Unbreakable, really? Totally uncalled for.
That is the thing. GW doesn't design balanced games. I'd like to see their algorithms in determining point values for models/items.
It's probably discussed over a beer, or in this case ten beers.
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Well, it seems to me that we just have to attain the right conditions against the Tzeench lord...
One way to win would be through combat rez, right? Break him and run him down...
So, you'd need to generate enough combat rez to reliably break him... let's say 3-4?
And, he'd need to take the charge... so no ranked up big units... OR charge in such a way that if he flees, you can get a second charge to knock him off the board, so he has to take it.
I know, it's a lot of conditions, but you might be able to answer them with:
1) A flank charge from a BSB on Pegasus = 3 static CR.
2) A frontal charge from 5 IC knights with warbanner = 3 static CR.
Just as an example.
So, then we just have to think about how to generate those conditions, if we want to remove the lord. At 300 points, it's totally worth figuring this out. That becomes a tactic you use when fighting WoC. Not the only one, but one of a series of tactics you use to address the opposition.
Just saying...
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Yeah, best bet to take out that bsb is probably CR, all it takes (quite a bit btw) is him failing one ld check and be autokilled because he is a standard bearer.
I still have faith in the outriders though they didn't do much this round.
Flyers are becoming more available all over, so while archer detachments are great for messing with ground troops we need some solid alternatives aginst them as well...
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I just think that the struggles of the Griffon were mainly due to not being all that well suited to taking on the new WoC, which is equal parts WoC's strength and the stylistic matchup. A big brick of I3 Greatswords is a prime target for P-Sun, as well as simply being tanked out of relevance by a Daemon Prince they can't hurt, Outriders don't really have the punch you need to bite through their Toughness and saves, and there's altogether insufficient shooting to deal with as many fliers and other fast stuff as WoC can put on the table (and TCW didn't go all the way - lists with the DP, 2 Chimerae, and 1-2 squads of Skullcrushers are popular for a reason). I've always been a big proponent of bringing as many cannons as a list can hold, and the new WoC is one of the big reasons why.
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HHG, I´m well aware of the Griffon´s power, having read most of your posts on it. I meant, how do you usually play to win with THIS list. But you were just trying it out as you stated, so never mind.
I get the resentment towards the BSB (seriously, GW, wtf?); however, I´d like to point out that had we run the BSB into the STank, IT would have held US up, as the STank is cheaper then the BSB and he probably couldn´t have killed it in time. :icon_mrgreen:
I can see the reasoning behind the GS placement now, having read the Empire thread, but still disagree with it. Had to find out the hard way not to put my infantry hordes in potentially awkward positions in the start (not least of that in the TDG against the Gobbos, if anyone else remembers that particular brilliant piece of deployment). :eusa_wall:
On that note I´d like to point out that terrain features in general are often misleading as you over- or underestimate their effects, and I´m glad they´re part of the TDG/TEG´s for just that reason.
Flying Circus seems problematic for Empire in general, but it is a power-build and as such should be measured against our own strongest builds (hint: not Outriders and Greatswords). That said, I prefer the TDG/TEG´s to be a bit of an uphill battle as that serves the fundamental reasons for them better: to sharpen our tactical understanding of the game generally and Empire in particular. Also, more fun. :icon_mrgreen:
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Also, light magic just isn't powerful enough even if they are daemons or undead.
Really it just depends on how much you invest in it.
While TEG3 was going on, I played a game against my son's WoC list with a Slaanish DP, Tzeentch BSB but on a Daemonic Mount (and therefore 3 wounds).
I was running my Griffon with a WAltar, Lvl4 Light Mage and 2x Lvl1 Light Mages. The Banishment off the WAltar was Str 7 and Str 6 off the Lvl4.
Even though he got the first turn, I was able to nuke all 3 wounds off the BSB and kill him with Banishment and put 2 wounds on the DP before he got into combat.
The DP charged my WAltar and the AL was equipped with Van Horst and a GW. Needless to say, the DP died in the first round with the AL. (He uses Unholy Strike to get around Van Horst and also Cac Choir to get easy wounds but I dispelled the Cac Choir and he missed with Unholy Strike). Basically game over.
Cannons and Hellblasters would not have been as effective in this particular game- my son uses a common WoC tactic of moving up his DP behind a wall of Trolls 2x 4. You would have to get a lucky shot to either get through the Troll's regen saves or get a lucky bounce over the wall into the DP- which of course had a Charmed Shield.
Like I said, there are many different ways to skin a cat. My goal is to find an army build I like playing while remaining competitive against any list. Half the fun for me is list tweaking and trying out new things.
I think the list I used against my son would give TCW's list a run for his money. :wink:
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The double banishment list is brutal vs the DP. The Lord and demonic mount hero list is much worse. You lose 2 levels of magic but the speed and survivability are even better.
I have played my empire vs that list several times and its always a coin toss.
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Overall a bit of a disappointing TEG for the empire.
I think the one takeaway for me from this is that empire LD though ok, can't be relied upon.
By not having the General/BSB bubble in the right spot we put ourselves in a position where bad dice rolls would cost us....I think we still would have had a fighting chance if we'd passed most of our Ld tests.
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Sammay and Rothgar are right. Cannons, engineers and Helbasters with pegasai should help fill the roll. The easiest way to avoid the chariots is to charge them first or block them.
I disagree. They suggest a complete rewrite of the Griffon and simply a totally different general concept. Especially if one would go so absurdly overboard and try to fit in four Captasi and four (+3) cannon. Then the Imperial Flying Circus meets a Stormbanner and everyone goes hmm, we need to tweak it...nothing is perfect!
Yeah, best bet to take out that bsb is probably CR, all it takes (quite a bit btw) is him failing one ld check and be autokilled because he is a standard bearer.
Two Ld checks. Also, those Knights only generate 2 CR but the point stands.
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Every time a read a forum and an army relies heavily on magic; somebody comments that it's bad planning. "Magic is too fickle".
A Cannon and Helblaster with an engineer, in pairs, is in my opinion far more reliable than magic.
Walter, Wiz Lord, and two lvl 1 light mages is costing 580 out the door and bare naked.
That's 23% of the army (2500 pts) for two spells that are S7 and S6, if both go off (And they often won't both go off).
The helblaster and cannon are going to inflict far more damage than both of those spells ever can. Especially if sporting a shadow mage.
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Yeah, best bet to take out that bsb is probably CR, all it takes (quite a bit btw) is him failing one ld check and be autokilled because he is a standard bearer.
Two Ld checks. Also, those Knights only generate 2 CR but the point stands.
I had a TZ Wizlord charge a unit of 9 Spider Riders (I know right, who uses them :icon_smile:) with a Hero on a Spider who challenged the TZ Lord who fluffed his attacks, I won combat by 1, rank + banner vs charge, he made his roll but he got a bit nervous. Can't kill him, can only CR him it seems.
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I disagree. They suggest a complete rewrite of the Griffon and simply a totally different general concept. Especially if one would go so absurdly overboard and try to fit in four Captasi and four (+3) cannon. Then the Imperial Flying Circus meets a Stormbanner and everyone goes hmm, we need to tweak it...nothing is perfect!
Agreed. Four captasi would not work well in the Griffon list. You don't have enough fast support to get a second wave in after the captasi. I certainly don't want to re-write the list! Again, I think there was a mis-match here and that you don't need to re-write, just play more games and come up with a different battle plan. The tools are there.
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Yeah, Captasi would result in what amounts to a list rewrite... but adding a couple of cannons (or a second Steam Tank) wouldn't. I say we go that route.
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One of my armies is Warriors. I've tried out the Tzeentch BSB disc build twice, and it isn't invincible. If I remember correctly, the heroes can't take more than 25 points of gifts, which means the reroll WS of 1 gift can't be taken with flaming breath. I think it can be equipped with the gift of regaining a wound when you cause a wound on a roll of a 6, but I think that is usually common on lords/demon princes.
I had spent 45 points on the Talisman of Preservation for the 3+ WS with reroll ones, and a charmed shield, with a greatweapon. I wanted the extra cannon protection over a 1+ AS. If the Tzeentch disc BSB does use a great weapon, be happy - in close combat it is only T4, 3+ AS, 3+ WS (reroll ones). I think the Enchanted Shield build is better to stay alive, but then you can only give the BSB a one turn flail. After that, you have 4 S5 attacks plus the disc, nothing most people are too afraid of, except for warmachines.
In one of my games, the disc rider was great, mopping up warmachines and the like. In the other game, I had to throw him in the front of a fight with common saurus warriors to help out a combat that wasn't going well. He had a defensive S5 Saurus hero who put a wound on the BSB, and a stinking common HWS saurus warrior finished off my BSB. I've done the math, and the WS works exactly 77.8% of the time. That 22.2% chance pops up frequently when enough attacks are directed at it.
I guess my point is that if you throw down a large enough medium quality volume of attacks, the Tzeentch BSB will go down. Chip away with outriders, Helblasters, S4/5 attacks and he will fall. If he is only S5 with the more defensive 1+/3++ build, only being S5, combat resolution is also effective - flank charge by a small unit of backfield protecting knights with a banner, etc. Seeing a GW BSB, at range I wouldn't expect to see the Enchanted Shield, so assume a regular or charmed shield. A helblaster/engineer can be expected to do 0.9 wounds (18 attacks * 3/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 * .222) at long range or 1.2 wounds at short range. With only two wounds, that is getting chancy for a 250 point BSB. If I had outriders against Warriors, I think I'd play them defensively, putting them in a good firing position to cover warmachines.
I probably wouldn't waste a cannon shot, but a high number of S4/S5 AP attacks is very scary to this BSB. For the BSB on a mount, well, he can be redirected.
FYI, in my list I don't run the Demon Prince (only will use it for transformation once it gets painted up), and will only run one Chimera. I use a fighty Khorne or Slaanesh lord, and knights and warriors, 1-2 chariots, because they are better for all scenarios once you start considering Blood and Glory and Watchtower. Someone going full out on a Demon Prince, max chariots (even with one unit of Warriors), and 3 Chimeras is usually only at four fortitude, and isn't so great in Watchtower. The max/min lists have the same problems as do all max/min lists - too much all or nothing.
Just my thoughts from the other side of the fence.
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...Except that the BSB build you describe is nowhere near optimal. In fact, I don't even consider Disc BSBs in general to be optimal - the Daemonic Mount adds a LOT more (immunity to KB, T5, W3) for a modest decrease in mobility.
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Every time a read a forum and an army relies heavily on magic; somebody comments that it's bad planning. "Magic is too fickle".
A Cannon and Helblaster with an engineer, in pairs, is in my opinion far more reliable than magic.
Walter, Wiz Lord, and two lvl 1 light mages is costing 580 out the door and bare naked.
That's 23% of the army (2500 pts) for two spells that are S7 and S6, if both go off (And they often won't both go off).
The helblaster and cannon are going to inflict far more damage than both of those spells ever can. Especially if sporting a shadow mage.
Cursain- yes, we all know how well cannons and Hellblasters can dish out damage when they work as intended. But consider a few things before you make a blanket statement that they will always dish out more damage than my magic nukes.
My current issue with WoC is not throwing out long range damage at targets, it is having the ability to throw out long range damage at specific targets. In this case the DP and BSB. I would argue that the dual Banishments are more likely to damage and kill these targets than your arty.
Magic can be fickle. But I don’t need both spells to get off every turn, I really need just one. And this isn’t too hard to accomplish no matter the Winds of Magic roll due to the Bound spell dynamics. Either you toss 6 dice (or max dice) at the WAltar bound spell and not worry about a miscast, or you cast a bunch of spells you want and your opponent has to hold on to dispel dice to prevent you from finishing with a Str 7 Banishment. You are likely to have some kind of successful magic phase every turn, even with a poor Winds of Magic.
Since I am worried about the DP and BSB, let’s compare the probability of kills using Banishment over arty.
With a cannon, assuming you have a clear shot and the DP's Charmed Shield is gone, you have a 34% chance of at least wounding it, and a 17% chance of killing it with one cannonball. Your percentage of success against the Infinite Flying Ward save is much worse.
As far as a Hellblaster, If the Chaos player flies the DP into range of a Hellblaster without some kind of cover, rolling a decent 3x 6 on the arty die, nets you 18 shots, hit with 9, wound on 4 or 5, 2 or 3 make it past the armour save, maybe getting 1 or 2 past his Ward save. DP is still alive.
Now with Banishment- one Str 6 or 7 spell, with even a mediocre roll of 10 hits on 3d6, is likely to net you enough wounds to kill the DP. Without even doing all the math, I can tell you it is way above the 17% success rate for the cannon. It might take two Banishments against the Infinite Flying Ward save…but it is the only realistic way to kill him at range.
The math in this case makes Banishment > a single arty. Your percentages increase with multiple cannon/’Blaster shots, but the issue with this is achieving those clear shots.
Getting clear arty shots is unlikely to happen often with a skilled WoC player. Like I said in an earlier post, my regular WoC opponents hide their DPs behind of wall of regenerating Trolls until they launch into combat. Which means I could go with heavy arty to support the Griffon but it won’t necessarily help me with my current problem. I could use the cannons to kill off his chariots, monsters and other juicy targets, but it is not stopping the flying monster circus.
As far as point cost comparison, the difference in what you are describing is really not that great. All solid builds have a decent General and Lvl4 Wizard. So the only extra point cost I am incurring is maybe 150 for the WAltar and 130 for the 2 Lvl 1s. Which equates to slightly more than the cost of 2 cannons.
And this setup is not just effective against WoC. What is also brings is access to the entire Light spell range- good combat buffs, decent Flaming nuke, 18 leadership bubble, etc. The two Banishments are just plain nasty. What else in the game gives you 2d6 or 3d6 Str 6 or 7 hits at range? Nothing. The Light blasts don't just work against Undead or Daemons. You could knock some serious wounds off troops blocks with this Banishment combo, clear out fast cav, hit mage bunkers hard, etc.
Hopefully everyone understands that the Griffon Formation and tactics are what you make of it. It is not one particular build- you could use Halberds instead of Greatswords or support it with various levels of arty, diverters, and magic. I personally happen to love Stubborn Greatswords and don't like taking lots of artillery, but I am not trying to convince anyone else what they should do. Notice that sometimes I don't even use the Formation if I don't want to!
It all comes down to personal choice and how you like to play.
:::cheers:::
HHG
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So, when will we have the Chaos VS Griffon rematch. ? This TEG showed us how the empire gets crushed by Chaos :evil:. Now we need to learn how to at least achieve a draw .
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So, when will we have the Chaos VS Griffon rematch. ? This TEG showed us how the empire gets crushed by Chaos :evil:. Now we need to learn how to at least achieve a draw .
I don't want the TEGs to get stuck on the Griffons....but I am always up for a throw down.
I think we can explore some new ground in the next couple of TEGs. I would really like to see Fandir take out his new HE for a stroll soon.....!
What I would like to do at some point in the future is take my new Griffon list (whatever it looks like at that point) against Rothgar and his Chaos list. Epic.
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HHG have no fear you just faced the most recent power creep army.
The disc lord and the demon price are just stupid, they take zero thought. A player can just push them across the board and fling some purple suns around too boot.
I have read all your Griffon posts here and you actually did something inventive and challenging, it took planning and tactics. I have faced it from other empire players that emulated you, its a great concept and its fun to play against.
I cant say the same for the current WoC.
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@ Von To be fair, the idea was to put the Griffon to the ultimate test against one of the nastiest armies that exists. The WoC army may not have required as much strategizing, but there are no armies that are just "fire and forget." And the whole exercise is designed around perfection through trial and error. With this defeat the Griffon comes another step closer to finding the right balance.
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With this defeat the Griffon comes another step closer to finding the right balance.
True, true.
I just got done playing my new list against WoC. In addition to the dual Banishment combo I talked about earlier, I was also able to squeeze in a cannon.
Needless to say, he conceded at the end of Turn 2. :evil:
I switched up my Core as well, adding in some Halbs to put some more troops on the line. The end result is not a normal Griffon but something closer to a "Steel Griffon" with Knights and the STanks protecting the flanks of the hordes.
Looks something like this on a normal deployment:
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/Steel_Griffon_zps0406846c.jpg)
:::cheers:::
HHG
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Interesting. I like this setup, though I would try to sneak in a bit more artillery. Still, it got the job done, and that's what matters in the end. :::cheers:::
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@HHG
I have been playing around with the Halberd/greatsword combination myself.
Though I've been trying outriders instead of knights and a peg captain instead of the altar.
So far I have had limited success, the list holds it points well, but struggles to press any advantage and ends up stuck grinding out combats that it eventually loses when their help arrives....I'd be interested in seeing what you do with it.
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So, when will we have the Chaos VS Griffon rematch. ? This TEG showed us how the empire gets crushed by Chaos :evil:. Now we need to learn how to at least achieve a draw .
I don't want the TEGs to get stuck on the Griffons....but I am always up for a throw down.
I think we can explore some new ground in the next couple of TEGs. I would really like to see Fandir take out his new HE for a stroll soon.....!
What I would like to do at some point in the future is take my new Griffon list (whatever it looks like at that point) against Rothgar and his Chaos list. Epic.
Not sure I have played enough games yet with them and also a bit busy as the last month on the probation of my new job but in a couple of weeks.....sure.
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As long as I get to edit my WoC list, I'll be fine with this projected future game. :::cheers:::
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When do we start the preparations for TEG4?
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When do we start the preparations for TEG4?
Well, unless we come up with a good idea for a matchup, I was planning on resting until Fandir is ready...
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FANDIR!!! Get a move on!
:-D
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I could suck something out of my fingers....or take the HE army book with me to the sailing trip I will be on the next three days....now many points are we talking about?
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I would assume 2500. PM me if you want to bounce ideas off someone - I'm helping my friend get a feel for the new book, so I'm in a HE state of mind.
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As you two schemers are thinking about HE possibilities we need to come up with an Empire opponent.
I can start up a new thread if we want to come up with list ideas... anything new someone wants to try?
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A scotsman on a horse? (or KF on a dragon?)
I don't know... Either very competetive or more light hearted, as long as there's enough variation in the army I'm happy (I like to do soemthing in all phases) :happy:
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As you two schemers are thinking about HE possibilities we need to come up with an Empire opponent.
I can start up a new thread if we want to come up with list ideas... anything new someone wants to try?
For the battle, I´d like to try a Watchtower or Battle for the Pass.
As for the army, I´d like to see an army based around mounted units, a griffon, pegasuses, Beast Magic and two Stanks.
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That's a freaking zoo, not a tactical exposition! You cannot just come in here and demand we have fun. I mean this isn't a question of life and death! It's much more important! :-D
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That's a freaking zoo, not a tactical exposition! You cannot just come in here and demand we have fun. I mean this isn't a question of life and death! It's much more important! :-D
I want a zoo!
Actually I wanted something different from the usual big blocks supported by Light magic.
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I would like to see us build a battle with strictly Lords, Heroes, and Core. No special or rare.
Using the new steadfast rules to our advantage in the latest FAQ, I'd like to see if we can manage it.
We could start vs. "weaker" lists and work our way up.
-Cursain
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...well, I have to say I didn't see that sort of request going. Up to HHG if he wants to go off the deep end like that, but I'm not much into the idea of watering down our options like that (no cannons? Heresy! ::heretic::).
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Based on the discussion so far, here is what I hit me.
I would like to see one of Sammay's all-mounted lists. He will be the General. (If he is too busy, he can be an advisor and we will figure out another General)
For the opposing army, I will randomly pull one from the TEG3 lists that forum members proposed. Either the list creator can be the General or we will form teams and then pick one.
I like this idea for a few reasons-
--switches us from infantry-based to cavalry-based for a bit
--helps Sammay build/refine his All-Cavalry Tactica
--pits him up against a tough list, but who knows which one is it giong to be
--give Fandir a bit more time to prepare his HE
Thoughts?
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Like the idea of trying an all-cav army, for a change.
Empire is diverse, so should be tactical threads.
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I'm up for it. How hard do you want the list to be? (essentially, do you want me to avoid fielding 2 stanks?)
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Here's a rough list of what I've been working up for a GT in September:
Lvl4, Steed, Dispel Scroll
Captain, Pegasus, Speculum, Warrior Bane, Pidgeon Plucker
Captain, Pegasus, +1S sword, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem
Captain, Pegasus, lance, Helm of Skaven Slayer, Dawnstone, Chramed Shield
2x 5 knights, Musician
4x 6 knights, nothing
3x 3 Demigryphs, banner
2x 5 Pistoliers, Musician
Steam Tank
15 mobile units. No killer units or killer characters. Tons of mobility.
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Here's a rough list of what I've been working up for a GT in September:
Lvl4, Steed, Dispel Scroll
Captain, Pegasus, Speculum, Warrior Bane, Pidgeon Plucker
Captain, Pegasus, +1S sword, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem
Captain, Pegasus, lance, Helm of Skaven Slayer, Dawnstone, Chramed Shield
2x 5 knights, Musician
4x 6 knights, nothing
3x 3 Demigryphs, banner
2x 5 Pistoliers, Musician
Steam Tank
15 mobile units. No killer units or killer characters. Tons of mobility.
No BSB or is that the Dawnstone Captasus? And also, lvl 8 leadership in a group of 6 knights? Sounds risky!
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Here's a rough list of what I've been working up for a GT in September:
Lvl4, Steed, Dispel Scroll
Captain, Pegasus, Speculum, Warrior Bane, Pidgeon Plucker
Captain, Pegasus, +1S sword, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem
Captain, Pegasus, lance, Helm of Skaven Slayer, Dawnstone, Chramed Shield
2x 5 knights, Musician
4x 6 knights, nothing
3x 3 Demigryphs, banner
2x 5 Pistoliers, Musician
Steam Tank
15 mobile units. No killer units or killer characters. Tons of mobility.
No BSB or is that the Dawnstone Captasus? And also, lvl 8 leadership in a group of 6 knights? Sounds risky!
Hold the line is very effective.
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Yep. No BSB. List is too damn spread out for the BSB to help all that much. Or, that's what I've found.
I'm not sure I like the lack of leadership/BSB, but I'm trying this out, as it provides me with enough units to swarm enemies in a staged manner. Not to broadcast tactics too much, but the list is in some parts designed to run away from combats. Reforming on an 8 can be dicey, which is why I have the two knight units with musicians.
Still trying this list out in a big way. May go with something more tried and true for the TEG.
But running away shouldn't be a problem if I play it right.
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I like it. I am all about trying out new things!
If you want to stick with your tried and true, I am game for that too.
Sounds like you are up for it. I will start a new TEG thread this weekend.
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I like the all-cav list, although I´d like to have Musicians on the Demigriffon Knights for the Swift Reform and a second Stank. 2 mobile cannons is much better than just one.