Topic: TEG3: Battle Thread- Empire Griffon versus Nurgle WoC 2500

[SevenSins]

The WoC characters are rock solid, a DP singlehandedly tking out a GS horde kind of illustrates this 
Best bet against that bsb? I don't know, a lucky banishment?

Mobility, and especially flyers, became a key point here as well as our inability to hit anything with shooting.... Loosing the bunker was also a huge factor.

Captasi might help a bit in this regard.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

A couple of comments, based on your comments.

I am always tweaking my "Griffon" lists.  In this set, I was experimenting with Outriders to see if they filled a niche I wanted them to fill.  They did okay in TEG2, but they failed miserably in TEG3.

By the time TEG2 was over, I had taken out one unit of Outriders in my running list.  Even before TEG3 was over, I took the other one out.

Grifter- just check out my Griffon BATREP thread to see how I win with the Griffon.  Even with bad dice rolls in some games, I consistently win.  As LSP pointed out, it is all about managing the battle and supporting the GS until they are joined in battle. 

New Warrios of Chaos is currently my bane.  As I mentioned in the beginning of TEG3, the new book is forcing me to adapt/change my list due to what I call "the monster flying circus."  I think it is almost a sad state of affairs the "Warriors" of Chaos has now become "Fliers" of Chaos. 

Adding a cannon or two is probably the easiest solution-  but I always try to experiment with multiple ways to deal with a problem set (in this case, trying to lowball a "Coven of Light" theme with only 2 Wizards and Str5 Banishment and the addition of multiple Outriders).  It was not enough.  This army did okay in TEG2 but got rocked in TEG3. 

I have some more ideas I am going to playtest against my son who is currently toying around with WoC-  we have some epic battles on the weekends.  I have tried out cannons before against the Flying Monster Circus and frankly they are not always reliable.  As any Empire player knows, sometimes they are crazy good, but as often as not, they under perform.  I think I am going to add one more cannon back into my list but I don't plan to it as "the answer."

On a side note-  I have tried adding a WAltar and Demis as another combat block to spread out the combat power.  What I found against a WoC list like this is the fliers ignore the Greatswords and go straight for the Demis.  Demis are great...but they can't stand up to the flying monster circus.  Even when I kept the GS and Demis as close together as possible, my Warriors opponents have enough speed to throw something in the way of the GS so they can't some to the rescue of the Demis.  Points become really tight here too-  the GS numbers have to be reduced and the WAltar sucks up a lot of points.  Usually you have to kit out the AL too-  so he doesn't become easy pickings.

All this being said, the Griffon Formation is not "dead/toast"with all the new fliers and monsters, it just needs the right support.


---------------------------------------------------------------

As far as this battle, you can read our Tactical Thread to get the play-by-play of why we did what we did-  we spread out, but on purpose.  Getting bunched up would have hurt.  We have plenty of room to flee and maneuver and the GS was somewhat "protected" behind the hill and could benefit from the Idol's buffs-  two of which would have taken away the fear of your Hellcannon plus D&D leadership bomb (Khorne & Slaanish).  We took a calculated risk in not having our Gen and BSB centrally deployed and it did hurt us.

Plus, we put GS apart from the archers just to throw you off for bit.  This game was all about trading space for time.

The Knights charging the BSB was a gamble, but I wanted one more round of freedom of movement for the tank and that was the only way I could see to manage it.  Either the Knights held, or if they didn't and the BSB pursued, he would have hit the Archer screen behind and therefore couldn't charge the STank.  I am not sure if TCW was thinking about holding up the tank with the BSB, but in my previous experience, the Flying Infinite Ward Save (OP, as Noght points out) especially with a GW, is a great way to hold up the STank forever and whack on it.   

If this plan had worked-  we had one more turn of magic and a cannonball on the DP to take him out.  It was the best we could have hoped for. 

But as you know-  the Knights lost, the Archers panicked, and it allowed the BSB to fly into our Wizard bunker.  Hindsight being 20/20, instead of using magic to ping off the Charmed Shield on the DP we should have nuked the BSB with Banishment, maybe killing him, used the Outriders to ping off the Charmed Shield, and then hope the cannonball took out the DP.  Hindsight, of course, is 20/20.

Even losing the Wizard bunker, we still would have had one more shot at the DP to maybe take most of the magic users off the board, except the Outriders got a 2,2,1 on their charge on the Warhounds.  That is just plain bad luck.  Sure, we could have shot the Warhounds into Oblivion but I wanted to move the Outriders into a different firing position and they should have made that easy charge.

Like I said before, one bad turn against a nasty fast list like this is all it takes-  and Turn 2 was as bad as they come.

Looking forward to more comments.  Keep them coming!

 
HHG

[Noght]

New Warrios of Chaos is currently my bane.  As I mentioned in the beginning of TEG3, the new book is forcing me to adapt/change my list due to what I call "the monster flying circus."  I think it is almost a sad state of affairs the "Warriors" of Chaos has now become "Fliers" of Chaos. 

I'm seeing a bit of a Meta change here, some Armies like WOC and DE (maybe include Ogres due to the speed of the Army) are taking so many big Nasties or Flyers, they are essentially flooding the zone, who cares if you have 3 Cannons if there are too many targets and even if you pop one or two ( say a Hellcannon and Chimera) the DP and BSB beat you singlehanded.

Let the tweaking begin...

[sammay23]

New Warrios of Chaos is currently my bane.  As I mentioned in the beginning of TEG3, the new book is forcing me to adapt/change my list due to what I call "the monster flying circus."  I think it is almost a sad state of affairs the "Warriors" of Chaos has now become "Fliers" of Chaos. 

I'm seeing a bit of a Meta change here, some Armies like WOC and DE (maybe include Ogres due to the speed of the Army) are taking so many big Nasties or Flyers, they are essentially flooding the zone, who cares if you have 3 Cannons if there are too many targets and even if you pop one or two ( say a Hellcannon and Chimera) the DP and BSB beat you singlehanded.

Let the tweaking begin...

This is why I am loving playing with 4 Captasi. Each can be outfitted to answer different problems, and deployed/moved to maximum effectiveness. I'm currently working with:

1) Speculum Captasus with Speculum, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant, Warrior Bane sword
2) Fire Captasus with 2+ ward against fire
3) Magic Captasus with Ogre blade
4) BSB Captasus with Enchanted Shield and Dawnstone

These, in a list with 12 other manuver elements, add a ton of flexibility. Haven't tested against WoC yet. Planning to shortly.

[rothgar13]

4 Cannons does the trick for me. Too much firepower for even that sort of army to ignore.

[Cursain]

4 Cannons does the trick for me. Too much firepower for even that sort of army to ignore.

Sammay and Rothgar are right.  Cannons, engineers and Helbasters with pegasai should help fill the roll.  The easiest way to avoid the chariots is to charge them first or block them.  With pegasai you can fly next to a chariot and it'll be screwed because it cannot pivot.

I'd rather have a flying captain with 3W and a pegasai than a unit of 5 knights.

There is just way too many points in that last list, that are basically flushed down the toilet.  All those archers could have been a cannon+.  The outriders a helbaster + engineer +....

For big nasties like that dp, he would have a huge challenge against a helbaster or two if he was in the crossfire.  The disadvantage of not being able to move and shoot (outriders) means they simply don't deserve to be fielded.  Vs. the "flying chaos" circus, it was game over.

Also, light magic just isn't powerful enough even if they are daemons or undead.  Go with Level 4 shadow, and level 2 shadow.  So much more versatile if you have two casters with miasma.  Reduce speed, ballistic skill/ws or Initiative when you need it most.

Reduce the S or T of a unit, and regular Halberdiers are suddenly very useful.  T reduction is a bitch when a have a helbaster with engineer ready to fire.

[cisse]

The TZ BSB (any TZ character actually) is so OP it's crazy.  It's worse than the unkillable Dreadlord.  High armor save, 3+ Ward, re-roll 1's Ward is beyond stupid.  It's not tough, it's impossible to take down, only danger is Combat Resolution but a WOC player would be insane to stick it in a combat with ranked troops.

This.

I can honestly not fathom how any decent game designer can make an army book that includes this monstrosity. A 3+ save with rerolling 1's is just not fun anymore. Couple it with flying, and it's ridiculous.

The deamon prince (nurgle variety specifically) is also an example. Unbreakable, really? Totally uncalled for.

[Cursain]

The TZ BSB (any TZ character actually) is so OP it's crazy.  It's worse than the unkillable Dreadlord.  High armor save, 3+ Ward, re-roll 1's Ward is beyond stupid.  It's not tough, it's impossible to take down, only danger is Combat Resolution but a WOC player would be insane to stick it in a combat with ranked troops.

This.

I can honestly not fathom how any decent game designer can make an army book that includes this monstrosity. A 3+ save with rerolling 1's is just not fun anymore. Couple it with flying, and it's ridiculous.

The deamon prince (nurgle variety specifically) is also an example. Unbreakable, really? Totally uncalled for.

That is the thing. GW doesn't design balanced games.  I'd like to see their algorithms in determining point values for models/items.

It's probably discussed over a beer, or in this case ten beers.

[sammay23]

Well, it seems to me that we just have to attain the right conditions against the Tzeench lord...

One way to win would be through combat rez, right? Break him and run him down...

So, you'd need to generate enough combat rez to reliably break him... let's say 3-4?

And, he'd need to take the charge... so no ranked up big units... OR charge in such a way that if he flees, you can get a second charge to knock him off the board, so he has to take it.

I know, it's a lot of conditions, but you might be able to answer them with:

1) A flank charge from a BSB on Pegasus = 3 static CR.
2) A frontal charge from 5 IC knights with warbanner = 3 static CR.

Just as an example.

So, then we just have to think about how to generate those conditions, if we want to remove the lord. At 300 points, it's totally worth figuring this out.  That becomes a tactic you use when fighting WoC. Not the only one, but one of a series of tactics you use to address the opposition.

Just saying...

[SevenSins]

Yeah, best bet to take out that bsb is probably CR, all it takes (quite a bit btw) is him failing one ld check and be autokilled because he is a standard bearer.

I still have faith in the outriders though they didn't do much this round.

Flyers are becoming more available all over, so while archer detachments are great for messing with ground troops we need some solid alternatives aginst them as well...

[rothgar13]

I just think that the struggles of the Griffon were mainly due to not being all that well suited to taking on the new WoC, which is equal parts WoC's strength and the stylistic matchup. A big brick of I3 Greatswords is a prime target for P-Sun, as well as simply being tanked out of relevance by a Daemon Prince they can't hurt, Outriders don't really have the punch you need to bite through their Toughness and saves, and there's altogether insufficient shooting to deal with as many fliers and other fast stuff as WoC can put on the table (and TCW didn't go all the way - lists with the DP, 2 Chimerae, and 1-2 squads of Skullcrushers are popular for a reason). I've always been a big proponent of bringing as many cannons as a list can hold, and the new WoC is one of the big reasons why.

[grifter]

HHG, I´m well aware of the Griffon´s power, having read most of your posts on it. I meant, how do you usually play to win with THIS list. But you were just trying it out as you stated, so never mind.

I get the resentment towards the BSB (seriously, GW, wtf?); however, I´d like to point out that had we run the BSB into the STank, IT would have held US up, as the STank is cheaper then the BSB and he probably couldn´t have killed it in time. 

I can see the reasoning behind the GS placement now, having read the Empire thread, but still disagree with it. Had to find out the hard way not to put my infantry hordes in potentially awkward positions in the start (not least of that in the TDG against the Gobbos, if anyone else remembers that particular brilliant piece of deployment). 
On that note I´d like to point out that terrain features in general are often misleading as you over- or underestimate their effects, and I´m glad they´re part of the TDG/TEG´s for just that reason.

Flying Circus seems problematic for Empire in general, but it is a power-build and as such should be measured against our own strongest builds (hint: not Outriders and Greatswords). That said, I prefer the TDG/TEG´s to be a bit of an uphill battle as that serves the fundamental reasons for them better: to sharpen our tactical understanding of the game generally and Empire in particular. Also, more fun. 

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Also, light magic just isn't powerful enough even if they are daemons or undead. 

Really it just depends on how much you invest in it.

While TEG3 was going on, I played a game against my son's WoC list with a Slaanish DP, Tzeentch BSB but on a Daemonic Mount (and therefore 3 wounds).

I was running my Griffon with a WAltar, Lvl4 Light Mage and 2x Lvl1 Light Mages.  The Banishment off the WAltar was Str 7 and Str 6 off the Lvl4.

Even though he got the first turn, I was able to nuke all 3 wounds off the BSB and kill him with Banishment and put 2 wounds on the DP before he got into combat.

The DP charged my WAltar and the AL was equipped with Van Horst and a GW.  Needless to say, the DP died in the first round with the AL.  (He uses Unholy Strike to get around Van Horst and also Cac Choir to get easy wounds but I dispelled the Cac Choir and he missed with Unholy Strike).  Basically game over.

Cannons and Hellblasters would not have been as effective in this particular game-  my son uses a common WoC tactic of moving up his DP behind a wall of Trolls 2x 4.  You would have to get a lucky shot to either get through the Troll's regen saves or get a lucky bounce over the wall into the DP-  which of course had a Charmed Shield.

Like I said, there are many different ways to skin a cat.  My goal is to find an army build I like playing while remaining competitive against any list.  Half the fun for me is list tweaking and trying out new things. 

I think the list I used against my son would give TCW's list a run for his money.   

[TCWarroom]

The double banishment list is brutal vs the DP. The Lord and demonic mount hero list is much worse. You lose 2 levels of magic but the speed and survivability are even better.

I have played my empire vs that list several times and its always a coin toss.

[George]

Overall a bit of a disappointing TEG for the empire.
I think the one takeaway for me from this is that empire LD though ok, can't be relied upon.
By not having the General/BSB bubble in the right spot we put ourselves in a position where bad dice rolls would cost us....I think we still would have had a fighting chance if we'd passed most of our Ld tests.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Sammay and Rothgar are right.  Cannons, engineers and Helbasters with pegasai should help fill the roll.  The easiest way to avoid the chariots is to charge them first or block them. 

I disagree. They suggest a complete rewrite of the Griffon and simply a totally different general concept. Especially if one would go so absurdly overboard and try to fit in four Captasi and four (+3) cannon. Then the Imperial Flying Circus meets a Stormbanner and everyone goes hmm, we need to tweak it...nothing is perfect!

Yeah, best bet to take out that bsb is probably CR, all it takes (quite a bit btw) is him failing one ld check and be autokilled because he is a standard bearer.

Two Ld checks. Also, those Knights only generate 2 CR but the point stands.

[Cursain]

Every time a read a forum and an army relies heavily on magic; somebody comments that it's bad planning.  "Magic is too fickle".

A Cannon and Helblaster with an engineer, in pairs, is in my opinion far more reliable than magic.

Walter, Wiz Lord, and two lvl 1 light mages is costing 580 out the door and bare naked.

That's 23% of the army (2500 pts) for two spells that are S7 and S6, if both go off (And they often won't both go off).

The helblaster and cannon are going to inflict far more damage than both of those spells ever can.  Especially if sporting a shadow mage.

[Noght]

Yeah, best bet to take out that bsb is probably CR, all it takes (quite a bit btw) is him failing one ld check and be autokilled because he is a standard bearer.

Two Ld checks. Also, those Knights only generate 2 CR but the point stands.

I had a TZ Wizlord charge a unit of 9 Spider Riders (I know right, who uses them  ) with a Hero on a Spider who challenged the TZ Lord who fluffed his attacks, I won combat by 1, rank + banner vs charge, he made his roll but he got a bit nervous.  Can't kill him, can only CR him it seems.

[sammay23]

I disagree. They suggest a complete rewrite of the Griffon and simply a totally different general concept. Especially if one would go so absurdly overboard and try to fit in four Captasi and four (+3) cannon. Then the Imperial Flying Circus meets a Stormbanner and everyone goes hmm, we need to tweak it...nothing is perfect!

Agreed. Four captasi would not work well in the Griffon list. You don't have enough fast support to get a second wave in after the captasi. I certainly don't want to re-write the list! Again, I think there was a mis-match here and that you don't need to re-write, just play more games and come up with a different battle plan. The tools are there.

[rothgar13]

Yeah, Captasi would result in what amounts to a list rewrite... but adding a couple of cannons (or a second Steam Tank) wouldn't. I say we go that route.

[Toledo Inquisition]

One of my armies is Warriors.  I've tried out the Tzeentch BSB disc build twice, and it isn't invincible.  If I remember correctly, the heroes can't take more than 25 points of gifts, which means the reroll WS of 1 gift can't be taken with flaming breath.  I think it can be equipped with the gift of regaining a wound when you cause a wound on a roll of a 6, but I think that is usually common on lords/demon princes.

I had spent 45 points on the Talisman of Preservation for the 3+ WS with  reroll ones, and a charmed shield, with a greatweapon.  I wanted the extra cannon protection over a 1+ AS.  If the Tzeentch disc BSB does use a great weapon, be happy - in close combat it is only T4, 3+ AS, 3+ WS (reroll ones).  I think the Enchanted Shield build is better to stay alive, but then you can only give the BSB a one turn flail.  After that, you have 4 S5 attacks plus the disc, nothing most people are too afraid of, except for warmachines.

In one of my games, the disc rider was great, mopping up warmachines and the like.  In the other game, I had to throw him in the front of a fight with common saurus warriors to help out a combat that wasn't going well.  He had a defensive S5 Saurus hero who put a wound on the BSB, and a stinking common HWS saurus warrior finished off my BSB.  I've done the math, and the WS works exactly 77.8% of the time.  That 22.2% chance pops up frequently when enough attacks are directed at it. 

I guess my point is that if you throw down a large enough medium quality volume of attacks, the Tzeentch BSB will go down.  Chip away with outriders, Helblasters, S4/5 attacks and he will fall.  If he is only S5 with the more defensive 1+/3++ build, only being S5, combat resolution is also effective  - flank charge by a small unit of backfield protecting knights with a banner, etc.  Seeing a GW BSB, at range I wouldn't expect to see the Enchanted Shield, so assume a regular or charmed shield.  A helblaster/engineer can be expected to do 0.9 wounds (18 attacks * 3/6 * 4/6 * 4/6 * .222) at long range or 1.2 wounds at short range.  With only two wounds, that is getting chancy for a 250 point BSB.  If I had outriders against Warriors, I think I'd play them defensively, putting them in a good firing position to cover warmachines.

I probably wouldn't waste a cannon shot, but a high number of S4/S5 AP attacks is very scary to this BSB.  For the BSB on a mount, well, he can be redirected.

FYI, in my list I don't run the Demon Prince (only will use it for transformation once it gets painted up), and will only run one Chimera.  I use a fighty Khorne or Slaanesh lord, and knights and warriors, 1-2 chariots, because they are better for all scenarios once you start considering Blood and Glory and Watchtower.  Someone going full out on a Demon Prince, max chariots (even with one unit of Warriors), and 3 Chimeras is usually only at four fortitude, and isn't so great in Watchtower.  The max/min lists have the same problems as do all max/min lists - too much all or nothing.


Just my thoughts from the other side of the fence.

[rothgar13]

...Except that the BSB build you describe is nowhere near optimal. In fact, I don't even consider Disc BSBs in general to be optimal - the Daemonic Mount adds a LOT more (immunity to KB, T5, W3) for a modest decrease in mobility.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Every time a read a forum and an army relies heavily on magic; somebody comments that it's bad planning.  "Magic is too fickle".

A Cannon and Helblaster with an engineer, in pairs, is in my opinion far more reliable than magic.

Walter, Wiz Lord, and two lvl 1 light mages is costing 580 out the door and bare naked.

That's 23% of the army (2500 pts) for two spells that are S7 and S6, if both go off (And they often won't both go off).

The helblaster and cannon are going to inflict far more damage than both of those spells ever can.  Especially if sporting a shadow mage.

Cursain-  yes, we all know how well cannons and Hellblasters can dish out damage when they work as intended.  But consider a few things before you make a blanket statement that they will always dish out more damage than my magic nukes.

My current issue with WoC is not throwing out long range damage at targets, it is having the ability to throw out long range damage at specific targets.  In this case the DP and BSB.  I would argue that the dual Banishments are more likely to damage and kill these targets than your arty.

Magic can be fickle.  But I don’t need both spells to get off every turn, I really need just one.  And this isn’t too hard to accomplish no matter the Winds of Magic roll due to the Bound spell dynamics.  Either you toss 6 dice (or max dice) at the WAltar bound spell and not worry about a miscast, or you cast a bunch of spells you want and your opponent has to hold on to dispel dice to prevent you from finishing with a Str 7 Banishment.   You are likely to have some kind of successful magic phase every turn, even with a poor Winds of Magic.
 
Since I am worried about the DP and BSB, let’s compare the probability of kills using Banishment over arty.

With a cannon, assuming you have a clear shot and the DP's Charmed Shield is gone, you have a 34% chance of at least wounding it, and a 17% chance of killing it with one cannonball.  Your percentage of success against the Infinite Flying Ward save is much worse.

As far as a Hellblaster, If the Chaos player flies the DP into range of a Hellblaster without some kind of cover, rolling a decent 3x 6 on the arty die, nets you 18 shots, hit with 9, wound on 4 or 5, 2 or 3 make it past the armour save, maybe getting 1 or 2 past his Ward save.  DP is still alive.

Now with Banishment-  one Str 6 or 7 spell, with even a mediocre roll of 10 hits on 3d6, is likely to net you enough wounds to kill the DP.  Without even doing all the math, I can tell you it is way above the 17% success rate for the cannon.  It might take two Banishments against the Infinite Flying Ward save…but it is the only realistic way to kill him at range.

The math in this case makes Banishment > a single arty.  Your percentages increase with multiple cannon/’Blaster shots, but the issue with this is achieving those clear shots.

Getting  clear arty shots is unlikely to happen often with a skilled WoC player.  Like I said in an earlier post, my regular WoC opponents hide their DPs behind of wall of regenerating Trolls until they launch into combat.  Which means I could go with heavy arty to support the Griffon but it won’t necessarily help me with my current problem.  I could use the cannons to kill off his chariots, monsters and other juicy targets, but it is not stopping the flying monster circus.


As far as point cost comparison, the difference in what you are describing is really not that great.  All solid builds have a decent General and Lvl4 Wizard.  So the only extra point cost I am incurring is maybe 150 for the WAltar and 130 for the 2 Lvl 1s.  Which equates to slightly more than the cost of 2 cannons.

And this setup is not just effective against WoC.  What is also brings is access to the entire Light spell range-  good combat buffs, decent Flaming nuke, 18 leadership bubble, etc.  The two Banishments are just plain nasty.  What else in the game gives you 2d6 or 3d6 Str 6 or 7 hits at range?  Nothing.  The Light blasts don't just work against Undead or Daemons.  You could knock some serious wounds off troops blocks with this Banishment combo, clear out fast cav, hit mage bunkers hard, etc. 

Hopefully everyone understands that the Griffon Formation and tactics are what you make of it.  It is not one particular build-  you could use Halberds instead of Greatswords or support it with various levels of arty, diverters, and magic.  I personally happen to love Stubborn Greatswords and don't like taking lots of artillery, but I am not trying to convince anyone else what they should do.  Notice that sometimes I don't even use the Formation if I don't want to!

It all comes down to personal choice and how you like to play.

 
HHG

[Hoffa]

So, when will we have the Chaos VS Griffon rematch. ?  This TEG showed us how the empire gets crushed by Chaos   . Now we need to learn how to at least achieve a draw .

[Holy Hand Grenade]

So, when will we have the Chaos VS Griffon rematch. ?  This TEG showed us how the empire gets crushed by Chaos   . Now we need to learn how to at least achieve a draw .

I don't want the TEGs to get stuck on the Griffons....but I am always up for a throw down.

I think we can explore some new ground in the next couple of TEGs.  I would really like to see Fandir take out his new HE for a stroll soon.....!

What I would like to do at some point in the future is take my new Griffon list (whatever it looks like at that point) against Rothgar and his Chaos list.  Epic.