Topic: project logs - Why and how and what

[Naitsabes]

so over in the tavern where the important people currently discuss the future of this site, Mrs. Weib had this to say regarding the B&P:

I can only add my two cents to the B&P as it's the only section I use. This part of the forum would be much more attractive for newbies and experienced painters if there was a tutorial section and if posting pics generated more detailed feedback than 'great work' or  ...

When I started my first painting blog on this forum, I often asked newbie questions and got a lot of replies with detailed, constructive criticism from experienced painters, helpful links, etc. Many painters who used to post here left because they rarely get useful feedback here any more, and I'm not sure whether painting newbies on W-E really want such advice as they often don't ask detailed questions / don't post WIP pics to get feedback for their painting problems, but tend to show finished minis. Not sure whether a gallery for finished master pieces or structural changes in general will solve that problem. Looking at great pics is nice. Creative exchange, constructive criticism of peers and helpful tutorials are what painters need to improve.

The project logs are by far the most important part of this forum for me so, this got me thinking (dangerous, I know). maybe we could have a little discussion on what people want to see in project logs. now, obviously these come in all shapes and forms, from a half-painted model to whole army shots, from short and focused to spanning multiple armies and years (presumably decades if given the chance). what are people's motivation to post them, why do we read them?

As a poster, first and foremost my project log keeps me motivated. I do actually go through occasionally and seeing old pictures and re-reading comments is great. I've also gotten useful advise for some things although maybe I am not using this opportunity to get feedback nearly enough. I tend to not post work-in-progress, maybe I should? Another selfish reason for the project log is just help in staying organized.

As a reader, the logs are a great source for inspiration. And, that can come from logs of all levels. Some clever use of bits, some interesting color choices, there is always something. Of course, there is also plain and simple the eye candy. Amazing what some of you guys put out. I do try to comment, but only when I have more to say than ' ' . Usually that ends up being some question. I guess I don't give unsolicited advice or suggestions but, maybe if we all did that would liven up the place? ...maybe even in a good way?

I'd be curious to hear what you guys think.

cheers.

[Warhammer-Weib]

You got me thinking about my motivation and that of others as well, Naitsabes.

As a poster, my blog keeps me motivated as well. But what has always been more important to me is peer critique to improve, to learn new painting and terrain building techniques. For me, it's not so much about finishing projects and posting pics of showcase minis (that's pretty hard to achieve as a single mum with two teens, a job and other interesting hobbies anyway). For me, it's much more about experimenting and learning no matter what I'm currently painting, and the creative exchange with other painters. Thus: Lots of WIP pics. 

I do appreciate the great variety of painters and their different approaches to painting though, and there should also be a place for those who prefer to post pics of finished projects to keep motivated for future projects because their often amazing work is appreciated by others and those looking for inspiration by taking a look at these pics and seeing what's possible. 

As a reader, I absolutely agree with what you said about sources of inspiration. And I don't want to give unsolicited advice or suggestions either. So it would be great if the B&P had two sub-forums, a showcase for those who want to keep motivated and inspire others by posting finished projects and a sub-forum for those who want others to comment and prefer posting WIP pics for open critique / those who want to be sure their advice / suggestions are really wanted.

[GamesPoet]

On the thread over in the Count's Tavern area, my ongoing draft has added "Tutorials" and "Open Critiques" as Child Boards underneath the main "Showcase" area.

[StealthKnightSteg]

I use my blogs for all you mentioned..
- keeping tabs on what I have and need to do
- posting progress (WIP pictures) but mostly if I feel the thread is drying up on content (if I have any to spill) or if I need some help
- eye candy
- comments
- critique to improve

And almost everything on other peoples threads, I read 95% of them, comment sometimes, ask questions and praise when I feel it is really good stuff or if someone needs encouragement.

[Victor]

On the thread over in the Count's Tavern area, my ongoing draft has added "Tutorials" and "Open Critiques" as Child Boards underneath the main "Showcase" area.

A dedicated area for tutorials has my full support, but I don't see the need to divide between blogs where constructive critisism is wanted and blogs where the project-starter might not be interested in such.

Fact is, there are not many people willing to provide lenghty feedback. From my impression, it was definitely better in the past - these days you can probably consider yourself lucky to get any text as response. But opening up such a sub-forum won't magically increase the frequency and quality of useful advice. To reverse the trend, you need some people willing to lead by example, provide proper feedback when wanted, and establish a new culture this way. But sometimes there is just not much to say.

Regarding the showcase only area: From my impression, the grand majority of people here have always welcomed constructive critisism and can handle it well (if it was voiced accordingly). But if someone spends about 10 minutes applying a sloppy paintjob on a miniature, takes a shoddy photo of it with his cell phone in a dark room, posts it here, and then expects everyone to be awestruck, while getting offended if some one says "Good start! ... but maybe you could try to ...", then he should probably not post anything on the internet to begin with.

[Booah]

I agree that this is an interesting post and share many of stealth's reasons for not only keeping a plog but returning to click on others and enjoy what is shown within. I think criticism and feedback is well taken and though not always acted on with the mini in question, it is something I will look on personally to try and get a bit better with on the next model or when it comes round to do something similar again.  A lot of feedback focuses on personal preferences which I think is fine as we all have our favourite colours and aesthetics but can all appreciate the time someone has spent on a model and what they wanted to achieve with it at the end.

In terms of WIP, I would post more but I tend to go through models fairly quickly and just like to present my final models as a personal record (with the bonus of some nice comments). I have also not painted much Empire in the last year but I think when I switch back to this I would feel more inclined to.

I think I also need to maybe include more questions looking for advice or feedback after posting an idea or picture, being clear in what I am looking for may lead to more thorough responses.

Ultimately, one of my favourite things to do after a long day at work is to wind down by putting paint to model and to think there areothers around the world that are doing the same and are willing to share their work is pretty awesome.

[Naitsabes]

I don't think we need to sub-divide this place either. Having project logs with work in progress and those with finished models is not mutually exclusive. The main thing I take away from this thread is that while there seemed to be less 'substantial' comments there are also a few people now who pledged to fix that. And, that we shouldn't be reluctant to comment or be politely critical. Let's see how this works out.

Ultimately, one of my favourite things to do after a long day at work is to wind down by putting paint to model and to think there areothers around the world that are doing the same and are willing to share their work is pretty awesome.

THIS!!!

[JAK]

(I wrote this last night but was too tired to post – pleased to see there have been a few more comments)

I’m surprised considering the number of painters here that this thread hasn’t grown, and as it is the only part of the forum I use I feel I ought to make some comment. (as this turned out to be quite long I’ll start with comments on the redesign of the forum and then ramble on about this board afterwards.)


I don’t think there is a need for Child Boards yet as there is so little traffic here on a daily basis; (the ten threads commented on yesterday is the highest for some months).

Under the title graphic there is a heading ‘Workshop’ the link of which isn’t working. I can remember looking here and finding a number of articles on how people had made their units of pike men amongst other things. Rather than having a Child Board for tutorials I would rather see them as a standalone article; i.e. if someone does post a How-to-Do which lots of members find useful they would be asked to do a proper article which would go in the Workshop section. I don’t have many set ways of doing things but have in the past explained my way of painting eyes – this was last included in a thread that ended up being 2-3 pages long which contained various different methods of doing eyes and must have confused the person who made the original request for help.

As for an ‘Open Critiques’’ board, I don’t think it would make any difference to the numbers of comments made. By posting your work anywhere you must accept that comments may/will be made about your work, whether you ask for them or not. If you are specifically after advice it just a few extra words in a post to do so. If members aren’t replying, perhaps like me they don’t think they have the knowledge to do so. Fortunately there are a number of experienced people here and from what I have seen of their replies the advice is good and helpful. On others forum I’ve been on I’ve seen quite talented people be totally negative and unhelpful towards newcomers and those less talented.



Why am I here? I don’t really know – I used to have a web site but access was stopped by the owners of the host server so I needed somewhere to post pictures of my work. I had little or no feedback to the website, although I knew from the record of traffic that there were a lot of views, and to some extent my work here is the same, there are a fairly consistent number of views to each new post and a few comments, and I’m happy with this response.

I don’t class myself as a great painter, and a distinct lack of art in my education (I have a colour circle but no idea how I’m supposed to use it) together with sight problems etc. mean that I’m not always happy with what I produce. I therefore don’t feel I’m able to provide constructive criticism in most cases. (as an example all pictures on a black background appear too bright to me, with little or no contrast,  and while others rave about them  I just want to add comments about taking photos under normal lighting so I can see the details properly.)

There are a lot of talented people on this Forum, and as this is real life sometimes the most creative ideas aren’t the best painted and the best painted aren’t the best builds but it’s all inspirational so I do look at all the new post in the B&P.  However I don’t feel the need to add ‘great’ to the list of similar. This aspect has been discussed on other Forums and many would wish to see the introduction of a ‘Like’ button. I’d press a lot of those if we had them.

I’ve rarely asked for help, but when I have I’ve had a good response, and some members have put a lot of effort into their replies, for which I’ve been gratefully (even if I’ve not said so or made use of their ideas).

Posting here has also been a good motivator, particularly in recent years with additional problems due to health issues, the monthly painting competitions were a great help in actually finishing projects – my lack of work recently has been due to circumstances beyond my control rather than motivation.

I rarely take pictures of WiP and so don’t post many – perhaps I should and will do in future – the past blog was more of a substitute for not having a web site in that I presented everything as a finished article – my recent enforced hobby holiday has changed a lot for me and caused me to rethink my plans – I think my current blog is to go on hold while I undertake a related project – perhaps with pre build thoughts and WiP if I remember to take photos.

[Zygmund]

If you think the Bursh & Palette is drying up, or drying up of content, you shouldn't divide it into special subforums!

If the type of critique is important, you could simply ask for it. You could start the heading of your thread with [CRITIQUE NEEDED] or the like.


Sorry for the following wall of text. Let's just say that I care for this forum. 


1. Why do I post my stuff - it's a sort of blog mostly. I'm proud of what I've done, and documenting it is a way to get vibes out of the figurines and projects finished. Any feedback is welcome, and helps me get motivated to post more, but in reality it's the real-life conditions (time), real gaming in my location (time), photography setting (time), and general hobby interest (time) which get me posting or not. Of course if I'm posting to myself alone, that would be a bit depressing. But usually I can foresee what kind and what amount of feedback there will be, and am happy with it. I could keep a blog, but really, posting directly to people who have similar interests and posting on a board that provides good communication and quotation facilities is much more effective, I believe. I just like forums.

2. Why do I comment others' stuff - mostly to give what I would think I would like: attention. Many projects surpass my skills, so I just say I like them and am in awe. Some projects are clearly by beginners or either by elder people who have different aesthetics from mine. There, I can comment on other things than the painting itself. Rarely, I've seen that someone is threading a similar path to mine, and is a couple of steps behind and not knowing where to get next, and then I've wrote lengthy to point out directions I've found useful.

Connected to this, I'm interested in Empire and Empiresque stuff (DoW, Kislev, Halflings, Ogres, the occasional Dwarf, Mordheim) only. If I'd like to see a subforum, it would be "Non-Empire stuff". I don't actually think this would be a good thing, because a) people paint different things, and most B&P threads are "auteur-specific" instead of "setting/army-specific" - and I do like the mixture: it's personal, and good painters can show their skills and give advice by doing many different things with different kind of figures/themes; and b) it would immediately give rise to the question if these other things should be here or under their own respective forums (40K especially) - which would undermine the fine community spirit here.


The community spirit might be the issue, really. W-E already is a rather tight community of oldbeards, and the thinning of new blood is a reality. We might have discussed most issues already, and seen most of each others' figures. This is typical of any forum of special interests, I've actually done quantitative forum-lifeline studies with RPG forums. There's an initial upswing, and people posting during the first year or two very much define the forum. This oldguard naturally thins up as some of the people move to other hobbies, get their army painted and move on, or just don't see the point of talking the same issues over and over again. And there are always less and less new guard joining in.

It's very rare that a forum sees upswings after the first three or five years. These upswings are connected to a drastic hobby issue (firestorm on another forum or a totally new/shared way of 'doing it'), or one or two posters 'making the forum theirs' by overflooding it with their own content. Each has their good and bad sides, and neither can be facilitated beforehand.

Also, major restructuring of forums is usually counterproductive to participation. Creating new sub-forums or collapsing old sub-forums rarely results into more discussions. I don't know why exactly, but this is a clear trend.

I don't want to sound pessimistic. And there is one way to improve the issue, which you can read from any forum-specific media article: orchestrate activity either by yourself or by a closed group of friends. Orchestrate it! Find out new issues, create topics to them, and orchestrate some participation. Do it even by creating new aliases, however false that might sound. But avoid heat, and moderate tightly. And this can work, it really can draw both old and new people to the forum, and make/help them participate.


On hobby guides:

I think the web is overflowing with painting guides, both blogs and videos, and these are also available in printed format is you want them. None of the guides are outright bad, everything has something to say, and most are clear on what level they aim at. The information is there and it's easy to get at if you really want it. So why should we create more of it?

The special Empire problems these days might be:
1) How to get inspired
2) Where to get alternative figures, which
a) fit together with previous GW editions, and/or
b) provide a quality alternative with scale proportions and breadth of options.

The second one is easy to tackle and I would love to see a complied and updated guide!

-Z