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Author Topic: Challenge a chaos lord  (Read 4843 times)

Offline Muppet

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Challenge a chaos lord
« on: December 07, 2013, 08:07:39 PM »
I'm up for a game where I'll score extra campaign points if I kill the opponents general (chaos lord) with my general in a challenge. I know that the chaos lord will be mounted on a juggernaut but not what kind of gear he will have. I've been thinking about this and I think my biggest chance is to kit my general with barded warhorse, full plate, shield, VHS and obsidian blade. I'll try to snipe him with magic and cannons before we engage but as I see it this is the only way I can get to strike first, strike harder than him and ignore his 1+ AS.

I'm a bit stuck in my imagination here so I would appreciate your comments. One idea is also to put another character with the white cloak of Ulric next to my general to benefit from the -1 to hit. Is that possible by the way? Reading the rules I would say yes as long as the chaos lord is in base contact with both characters during the challenge.

Offline Willscarlet

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 01:49:09 AM »
I think your build is pretty good. Maybe use an Arch Lector instead so that his stats are lower when it comes time to swap. But then again he might see that coming.

I'm not sure about the trick with the White Cloak. As far as I know (no immediate access to the rulebook) a challenge can't be affected by those sorts of things. And it's a lot of hassle to simply get -1 to hit.
The old wisdom born out of the west was forsaken. Kings made tombs more splendid than the houses of the living, and counted the old names of their descent dearer than the names of their sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry, or in high cold towers asking questions of the stars.

Offline BBorN

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 02:36:36 AM »
I think your build is pretty good. Maybe use an Arch Lector instead so that his stats are lower when it comes time to swap. But then again he might see that coming.

I'm not sure about the trick with the White Cloak. As far as I know (no immediate access to the rulebook) a challenge can't be affected by those sorts of things. And it's a lot of hassle to simply get -1 to hit.

This is not correct. Just because your in a challenge it doesn't stop other items carried by characters not in the challenge from working. Other tricksters shard, and possibly white cloak /glittering scales (I think one of them stats models in base contact and the other states attacks against the character...)

Tough part becomes who issues the challenge - you may end up moving away from your babysitter. Don't forget also he could just use his champ for the challenge and depending on the unit that champ could kill you
It's not the size of the Herdstone it's how you use it

Offline Willscarlet

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 09:32:39 AM »
Don't some chaos lords have a special rule where they have to always issue a challenge if possible? Or is that just from an upgrade or item or something?

What I meant by the white cloak thing was that it wouldn't work because it's very unlikely you'd be able to get that setup the way you'd like it. The other thing to worry about is base sizes (if the chaos lord is on a juggernaut and you're on a horse). It just adds another element to worry about in terms of lining up the challenge and the possibility of support from other magic items.
The old wisdom born out of the west was forsaken. Kings made tombs more splendid than the houses of the living, and counted the old names of their descent dearer than the names of their sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry, or in high cold towers asking questions of the stars.

Offline BBorN

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 02:54:47 PM »
Don't some chaos lords have a special rule where they have to always issue a challenge if possible? Or is that just from an upgrade or item or something?

What I meant by the white cloak thing was that it wouldn't work because it's very unlikely you'd be able to get that setup the way you'd like it. The other thing to worry about is base sizes (if the chaos lord is on a juggernaut and you're on a horse). It just adds another element to worry about in terms of lining up the challenge and the possibility of support from other magic items.

Oh. Gotcha ;)

Yes the whole warriors book states that they must issue challenges. However if they don't want their lord in a challenge they can declar with a champ still. So once you kill him then you can challenge out their Lord.
It's not the size of the Herdstone it's how you use it

Offline TheBelgianGuy

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 09:24:20 PM »
Don't some chaos lords have a special rule where they have to always issue a challenge if possible? Or is that just from an upgrade or item or something?

What I meant by the white cloak thing was that it wouldn't work because it's very unlikely you'd be able to get that setup the way you'd like it. The other thing to worry about is base sizes (if the chaos lord is on a juggernaut and you're on a horse). It just adds another element to worry about in terms of lining up the challenge and the possibility of support from other magic items.

Oh. Gotcha ;)

Yes the whole warriors book states that they must issue challenges. However if they don't want their lord in a challenge they can declar with a champ still. So once you kill him then you can challenge out their Lord.

And the brilliant part is that if you swap stats with a Chaos champion, you're still gonna get better stats.

Offline psychichobo

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 10:11:45 PM »
Well, if he's on a Juggernaut he'll be in a unit of them too - it's the only Monstrous Cav unit in the book, and though there's Tamurkhan Rot Knights they're unlikely and also Nurgle so he can't join them. He'll want a Look Out Sir save from Empire definitely.


So, we'll assume he'll be in a unit of Juggers - and I'm not sure if they'll have a Champ in them, as people tend not to take them due to their having to challenge, which means a lot of wounds wasted in a challenge instead of reducing enemy ranks.

So, it's possible the unit may only have the Lord who can challenge - in which case, due to the wide frontage of the Juggers, the White Cloak idea might still have merit...

Still, be wary of his setup. He WILL have Always Strikes First from a Helm of Many Eyes, and possibly an Ogre or Giantblade - he also doesn't even need a shield with that helmet, so he may even take a Halberd. That's a lot of damage with only 25 points of magic items spent with just the Helm and Halberd.

So, he could have a LOT of other things - Dawnstone (useless admittedly against you), Ward Save, Fire Breath, Poison, Potions... there's a LOT of choice.

Offline Muppet

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 06:46:01 AM »
Thank's for the input! I'm pretty sure he'll be in a unit of Skullcrushers. I'll probably have more units than him so I should be able to place my characters after him in which case I can put them so that no-one will have to move if a challenge is issued.

Realistically, it would be best to avoid the challenge, use chaff to redirect etc., but I've always liked the fluffy idea of the generals of the two armies meeting in a duel on the battle field. Although with regard to Empire characters and experience it almost never ends well for my general.  :blush:

Offline GenOmar

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 05:56:50 PM »
something worth mentioning.
on your turn, you can issue the challenge, don't wait for him to issue.
the accepting model moves into base contact with the challenger.
maybe keeping your other magic items in the postion you want them to keep effecting the rest of te unit.
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Offline Ambrose

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 06:43:12 PM »
Chaos heroes and lords must issue a challenge when allowed.  I don't believe that the champion has that rule, but the lords and heroes do.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 07:22:29 PM »
No, champions do have that rule too.
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Offline Lord Eli

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 08:08:21 PM »
what i have found to work out great is lore of light as long as you get speed of light off and phas protection hes gonna be needing 5's to hit you

but that is rellying on magic so its always a iffy but i tends to work out everytime i have tryed it and i ussaly run a lvl2 metal with a lvl4 light with a book of ashur that usually wins magic for me

Offline Eighty

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 09:26:47 PM »
If your hurting for points, i find the biting blade a decent alternative weapon to be used with the VHS.
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Offline Ambrose

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 01:13:03 PM »
No, champions do have that rule too.

So, fluff wise the player should accept with his hero, but rules wise they can accept with their champion.  Cheese.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 01:30:22 PM »
Maybe the hero/lord in his arrogance is thinking: "Unless it is the Emperor, I cannot be bothered"?  :icon_wink:
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
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Offline BBorN

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 02:11:43 PM »
I'm planning a build to take down WoC brokenness since I am plain sick of it.

General on Pegasus, Full Plate, Speculum, Ogre Blade, Enchanted Shield, Other Tricksters Shard - 244 points

This way he can take down a demon prince in a challenge or even a chaos lord and their 3+ ward reroll 1s brokenness. s7-8 in the challenge means by by armor save. Plus he can possibly finish off chimeras that may be running around with only 1 or 2 wounds left. Admittedly I would be nervous about his armor save against their high S though but a 4+ armor isn't the worst thing ever. Key would be getting him the +1 to hit from the hurricanum.
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Offline GenOmar

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2013, 05:48:34 PM »
AL with fencers blades and white cloak.  is a good all comers build
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Offline psychichobo

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 10:01:26 PM »
Maybe the hero/lord in his arrogance is thinking: "Unless it is the Emperor, I cannot be bothered"?  :icon_wink:

I like to think he's just letting the young 'uns get some practice. Awfully nice, Chaos Lords, when you get to know them.

Offline Muppet

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2013, 07:06:03 PM »
Well, proved my build was not too shabby. Unfortunately he had a BSB on juggernaut as well in the same unit, but with a BSB with 1+ AS and 4+ ward and a lord with the same he was one successful ward save from my general killing both in duel.

Ideas for rematch: I had a 2+ AS, it would have been preferable to put him on a barded warhorse, that way I would have avoided their stomps also. Then I could also have had him with my Reiksguard knight unit with razor banner, so maybe obsidian blade would not be needed?

In hind sight, lore of life had been more useful than shadow, especially as I didn't get mindrazor.

Offline BBorN

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2013, 06:15:19 PM »
Well, proved my build was not too shabby. Unfortunately he had a BSB on juggernaut as well in the same unit, but with a BSB with 1+ AS and 4+ ward and a lord with the same he was one successful ward save from my general killing both in duel.

Ideas for rematch: I had a 2+ AS, it would have been preferable to put him on a barded warhorse, that way I would have avoided their stomps also. Then I could also have had him with my Reiksguard knight unit with razor banner, so maybe obsidian blade would not be needed?

In hind sight, lore of life had been more useful than shadow, especially as I didn't get mindrazor.

I'm confused - I thought you were putting him on a barded warhorse? What build did you end up with?
It's not the size of the Herdstone it's how you use it

Offline Muppet

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2013, 06:20:55 PM »
Full plate, shield, dragonhelm, obsidian blade, VHS.


Offline sammay23

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2013, 07:17:01 PM »
Well, proved my build was not too shabby. Unfortunately he had a BSB on juggernaut as well in the same unit, but with a BSB with 1+ AS and 4+ ward and a lord with the same he was one successful ward save from my general killing both in duel.

Ideas for rematch: I had a 2+ AS, it would have been preferable to put him on a barded warhorse, that way I would have avoided their stomps also. Then I could also have had him with my Reiksguard knight unit with razor banner, so maybe obsidian blade would not be needed?

In hind sight, lore of life had been more useful than shadow, especially as I didn't get mindrazor.

I'd call this a success. How long did you hold them up for? Did you take out the lord or the BSB? Either one is worth the points. Holding up both is terrific.
Bring out the mop and broom sammay.  I want to see you clean this house.

Offline Muppet

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Re: Challenge a chaos lord
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2013, 08:32:02 PM »
I'd call this a success. How long did you hold them up for? Did you take out the lord or the BSB? Either one is worth the points. Holding up both is terrific.

If I remember correctly I killed the BSB on the third round of close combat and got killed by the lord on the second round of that duel, so five close combat rounds in total. It was a good trade points wise, but in the end I still lost the game. But it was sooo close that the lord also bit the dust.  :happy: