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Author Topic: Defiance Games - Deja Vue  (Read 3400 times)

Offline Midaski

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Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« on: September 24, 2013, 09:50:43 AM »
I had an email this morning saying there had been a 'change of management' at Defiance Games.

Quote
Greetings,
As you may have heard Defiance Games is under new leadership.
Gary Pelletier- who has been handling customer service and production issues for the past year - is taking over as CEO effective immediately.

I, Darred, am the new sales representative of Defiance Games.
If you have any concerns whatsoever please let me know. I will try to assist you in anyway I can.

Thank you,

Darred Surin

I seem to recall something similar happened at Wargames Factory ...........................

Not being very interested in the sci-fi market I don't know how well their stuff has been doing?

 :engel:
Quote from: Gneisenau
Quote
Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 10:44:01 AM »
It sucks..immensly so. The only good thing they managed was the artwork for the German Panzergrenadier.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 03:08:04 PM »
At this point, not sure what to make of it.  Time will tell.

I've liked their UAMC and Hudson's Bugs, but the first release of German Panzer Grenadiers wasn't good.  Heard they were redoing them, but don't know where that stands at the moment, particularly with the management change.  Haven't been thrilled enough to buy the futuristic Chinese.  They got a "kickstarter" going for some hard suit UAMC, and it seems thats heading in a decent direction.  We'll see.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

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Offline Delthos

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 04:18:35 PM »
I had high hopes for them, but everything they've produced so far has been horrible. Especially those amateurish looking swamp worms. Very disappointed in them. They've had serious production delays and delays in shipping, so I'm not surprised to see new management. It seems the old management just can't get their act together. Maybe this will be a good thing for the company, I don't know but Wargames Factory seems to be doing well since they left them to start Defiance Games.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 04:23:04 PM »
Their whole presentation of products...the products themselves....it just is a bad company.

I still dig the artwork though I hope someone picks it up at some point.




Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 06:11:30 PM »
Saw a figure of the 2nd version of the panzer grenadiers that looked closer to the artwork than the initial release, yet that was before the management change, so it'd be only a guess if they do or do not reproduce them at this point.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline Delthos

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 06:45:52 PM »
Their whole presentation of products...the products themselves....it just is a bad company.

I still dig the artwork though I hope someone picks it up at some point.



Case in point, if the miniatures would have looked anything like the artwork they would have been cool. Unfortunately they are just crap.
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"Kill 'em all and let Morr sort 'em out!" (General Ghent, Battle of Dumsky's Fallow)

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 06:48:15 PM »
Monkey arm McI have arms that are longer than my legs.


Offline FR1DAY

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2013, 06:56:21 PM »
The UAMC are ok, give their price. They painted up ok for grunts. I've done some as tyrants legion auxilla. They came in reasonable time as well. They just lack crisp details and need more work to get a good paint finish than I was ready to do.

I got a couple of grenadiers for free and they are crap.
There are 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack.

So why you complaining!

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2014, 01:17:19 AM »
Well looks like the company is going bancrupt...but not without letting several people sit on debts the company has with them.

From Proxy Models

    I would like to warn people that I have had an extremely unpleasant dealing with the new management. Be very careful about these guys. I am owed a lot of money and I have been informed that the new management will not pay debts owed by Tony. I have a very strong reason to believe the management shift was a shell game to make the kickstarter look better. Can’t prove it, but have a very strong feeling about it.

    This company has been the worst dealings I have had in my limited time as a part time, one man plastic company. I will NEVER work with them again.

    They had planned for me to make the plastic mech in the kickstarter without ever even talking to me about it. I found out I was the supplier after reading the kickstarter and asking who was making it. I told them I would not be making anything for a company that owed me thousands of dollars and was making no attempt to pay. After I was paid for previous product I would be willing to look at the files and see what could be done. Well, they got a pile of money from kickstarter and found someone else to make the mech. And they told me weeks ago they would be returning product, but they have not. This is NOT ok with me, but I have no choice. I would not have made the items if they had not ordered them. Still they have the items in their store, I have no money, and they are setting on almost $50,000 USD in kickstarter money.

    I am very sorry if this seems to be a bad business move to spread bad news about another company, but I am angry beyond the capacity for rational thought.

    Be very careful dealing with them.



and from a cooperation team they made a Kickstarter together with

    Dear Backers,

    This is not an easy update to send out, but I have always been open, honest and transparent with you all and recently the Torn World team has had to have some very unpleasant conversations regarding “Torn Armor.”

    We have hit a major obstacle here – which I will detail below – and it is only fair to be open and clear on the parties involved. I will simply layout the facts as they have occurred and you can form your own conclusions. What I will say is that ultimately you put your faith and trust in me to ensure that this project was delivered, and in that I have failed you. So while the Torn Armor team has hit unforeseen circumstances and been subjected to unprofessional behavior and broken promises, ultimately I am responsible and please direct your frustrations squarely towards me.

    A Recap:
    As you will remember, immediately after the Kickstarter ended last year we contacted the China-based companies to finalize our quotes, and were then informed that even though our quotes were less than 90 days old the new production prices, across the board, jumped by 30%. This caused us to seek an alternative production company and during this time one of our backers came forward with a recommendation. This recommendation was given and genuinely provided to help the project, but in hindsight it set us on an unfortunate path.

    The company recommended is here in the United State, and this – if anything – I viewed as being beneficial. What I did not know, and honestly had no way of knowing, was that they were about to head into some very troubling times. This company is Defiance Games.

    Back in June/July of last year I had my first contact with Defiance and after talking to them for a short while, I felt that it was a good solution and I felt confident that everything was still on track. But the intervening time has been nothing but stalls, delays, staffing shuffles, and sideways movement. They brought on a new CEO shortly after I signed contracts with them, which I found to be alarming, but was told that it was to improve the running of the company. They acknowledged that they had been experiencing turbulent times and the new CEO was to help get things back on track; I was reassured, numerous times and by their upper management that all was on track and schedule.

    The team I had recently been introduced to and communicated with soon left and a new team was brought onboard. Again I got to meet them and again I was reassured that the changes were for the best. We were still prepping miniatures for mold production, deadlines and timelines were re-affirmed as being “November,” and while I was uncomfortable with the constant switching of staff, I felt that the wheels were moving and shortly we’d start seeing masters roll off the 3d printers. When this did not happen as promised I started updates regarding delays, later delivery timeframes and so on. I simply need time to sort out what was actually happening and where I might be able to adjust as needed.

    Now while I am a patient person and I can be understanding the constant delays and lack of action from Defiance made me think that this was more than a “changing of the guard, or a that new production schedule was being implemented.” I realized there was something seriously wrong.

    With our initial deadlines past and the old year ending I put them under great pressure to get things moving. With this pressure we saw the hoplite. He was great and Defiance confirmed that they could work with the model.

    I believed we had a light at the end of the tunnel. With constant pressure and micro management on my end I cautiously believed we could get the project on a track towards completion.

    It was at this time that Defiance stated that they would not produce any masters until they had finished a batch of models. They then informed us that the file format we had provided them, their choice, wasn’t going to work. This new format was already a replacement of the original format they said wouldn’t work, which again was their choice. Soon after this they started talking about “going back to the models from last October” It was at this time I knew we were going into a downward spiral of excuses and finger pointing.

    Ironically their chief responsibility was the creation of a usable, printable, castable 3d miniature models. Early on, they informed me they were unable to work with my artist/modeler and they in turn chose the artist/modeler they wanted to work with. The file format wasn’t going to work!

    Clearly we have a serious problem.

    Get Another Production Company?
    Last Friday I concluded that Defiance was completely unable to fulfill our needs and that I made a mistake in choosing them. Being noble and generous I would say that they truly felt like they could handle it, but the reality of the project – in addition to their own projects – was too much. There may well be other reasons.
    I formally asked for our money back less the approved and agreed charges and after a weekend of badgering they told me on Monday that “We do not have the available cash on hand to return these funds at this time” and “We are gearing up here for our own releases to get new product to market and improve our cash flow.”

    The Problem
    And herein lies the problem: Defiance have not been able to produce the miniatures, but they are also unable to return the funds. And the funds are somewhat substantial.
    Currently, we are reviewing all legal options, but I have very little faith that we will simply get this money back.
    Torn Armor is effectively dead in the water.

    Where Do We Go From Here?
    Clearly our options are considerably broadened if Defiance returns our funds: Reaper Miniatures offered to help out, but without these funds allocated to the miniatures being able to fulfill on the miniatures is an impossibility.

    The money lost is crippling, but it wasn’t everything and we can put the remaining funds to good use. Currently we are discussing offering partial refunds, creating the game-only tier (rules, maps, cards, units, dice) or simply staying in a holding pattern until there is news where our funds are returned, but this last option could honestly be something that dragged on for years and we are not a fan of that route.

    This situation simply sucks.We have put in a lot of our own personal money into this, we created a dream and you – our incredible backers – were the best that anyone could have ever asked for. We all passionately worked together for the Kickstarter and I earned some good friends because of it, so to now be reduced to this a year later is utterly crushing.

    I fought off this moment as long as I could, but I would not send out an update like this without firmly believing that we just ran into a brick wall.

    Tl:dr
    In a nutshell we have been screwed by our supplier and are now not able to fulfill this Kickstarter project. We are discussing all options at the moment, but do consider the miniatures portion of this project dead.

    ~ Natalya & the Torn World Team





Well....time to say good bye.



Their Minis were bad.

Offline Timbor

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 03:41:32 AM »
There is also quite the poop-show on their FB page at the moment.  Interesting reading if you wish to read all 180+ comments for their 'open letter'

https://www.facebook.com/DefianceGames
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - J.H.

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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2014, 04:06:11 AM »
Who would want to read so much puking.  The whole situation smells bad all the way around.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2014, 06:17:08 AM »
I wonder if that guy will create a third company promising grandeur.

Offline zifnab0

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2014, 03:24:21 PM »
~ Natalya & the Torn World Team

Well that's unfortunate.  That should pretty much torpedo Defiance Games' reputation.

This also shows a huge weakness of the Kickstarter model.  They say that there is a legal obligation for the creator to fulfill their obligations, but there's no actual accountability between the creator and the backers.

Kickstarter's attempts  to divest themselves of responsibility is the main reason why I cancelled my KS account.  Everyone should be wary about projects on KS.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2014, 03:28:07 PM »
Yes enterpreneurs can crash and yes your investment might go down the drain. That pretty much is what most business investments have to deal with though.

I like the concept that people can decide to directly pour their money into projects, items, software etc. what they desire. I think there will be some VERY good computer games and miniatures coming out of Kickstarter...well and loads of rubbish.

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2014, 07:27:04 PM »
Back the kickstarter that's just looking to manufacture - not to develop
That's what I'd say
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Offline Midaski

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2014, 08:33:23 PM »
I have to admit, despite my addiction,  :engel: I have not got involved in any Kickstarter project.

The principle is ok, but from my business experience "the best laid plans" etc., and even the nice honourable people can get things go wrong. The nearest I have got is advance ordering a 'Nickstarter' for the Osprey collaboration on Ronin, and telling White Knight I will order his stuff  :engel:

I am afraid I tend to want to see stuff up close and personal these days - the Salute show each April has become a great place to see stuff.  Once you have viewed products from a company you can trust the images you see online better.

Quote from: Gneisenau
Quote
Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline Timbor

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Re: Defiance Games - Deja Vue
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2014, 08:44:25 PM »
Back the kickstarter that's just looking to manufacture - not to develop
That's what I'd say

Sound advice.  What most people don't realize or choose to ignore is that Kickstarter is simply an alternative to traditional venture capital.  The entrepreneur used to have to convince a bank that they were a safe investment and would not lose the bank's money and interest.  With the KS model the risk is mitigated by several micro-investors who take merchandise rather than cash and interest as payment.  The same criteria for risk still apply, but I think the average Joe is perhaps ignorant of that.

My main criteria for wanting to invest in a KS (because it IS an investment.  I wouldn't recommend using it to fund your retirement, however):
- is there an existing company that has proven it can deliver for some time?  Its easy for a guy with an idea to see KS as a 'get rich quick' scheme and not realize the work and costs involved and get in over his head.
- has the creator done successful Kickstarters before?
- How far along is the development, and how long until I get my perks? (I typically don't want to back something that will take much more than 6 months... that's a long time to wait with nothing to show.)
- How much is being promised for my money?  You should only really expect Reaper Bones value if its a huge project run by a huge company

I am most definitely more picky with the projects that I back now.  Partly because I have bought into a few projects and ended up selling everything again because it was just too much stuff!
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - J.H.

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