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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Oldhammer, Herohammer, 6th & 7th => Topic started by: FR1DAY on August 26, 2018, 10:02:56 PM
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Hi all, been a while since ive posted in this bit of the forum.
My local games club have started playing 6th ed again with about 20 players involved. This is great news for me as i loved 6th the best. I played loads for games and tournaments during 6th ed and meet lots of the old skool members of this forum then doing so.
Ive got my first game tomorrow night so i have been sorting through my old models, which got shipped to the loft with the end times destruction of a last, bad edition of a game i loved. They sre scattered over many boxes, and come caked in layers of dust. I have also had to re learn rules, as best i can in a couple of hours. Hopefully its like muscle memory and itll all come back to me.
Ive struggled to get to grips with the stat lines and defence balance. Ive been playing lots of 8th ed 40k since it came out and a lord level character only having three wounds is scary. However, its a different balance from a differnet time, you dont get attacked if you kill everybody touching you. If i remember, its about static combat resolution from deep units and killing from the characters. The good old days of the Village idiot style list, if any of you can remember him. Mounted characters leading massive infantry units with self supporting battalions. Search for it.
However, this time round, im using my warriors of chaos army. It in better shape than my empire forces, though ive had to mend quite a few guys stil. Also a much smaller model count. The lord of tzeentch on disc and 18 chosen warriors on foot is very nearly 1000pts, half an army. The hordes of chaos is such a bland book. No monsters at all just warriors, marauders, hounds and spawn. Oh, and daemons if thats your thing.
Anyway i promise to get a few pictures tomorrow so you can all reminisce the good old days of 6th, also my list and a quick report. Hopefully this should be a start of a running thread and get me to re construct all my different empire province armies.
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That's good to hear, 6th edition truly was the golden age :happy:
A little plug though, if you like the TVI style of play, it has become entirely valid in the latest versions of T9A. I'm myself committed to making it work, and better players than me have shown that it can be done.
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Awesome to think that 20 folks are going to do this! :eusa_clap: :::cheers:::
I'd need to relearn the rules before I play any WFB. :icon_lol:
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Oh man the glory days of the TVI lists. I remember those, usually with some twitching. At the time I was playing mostly dwarves, and I got to listen to my usual Empire opponent tell me all about it as he slaughtered my poor, brave Dawi.
It was a good strat.
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I thought 6th ed Hordes of Chaos had Chaos Ogres, Trolls and Dragon Ogres in it? I remember Dragon Ogres being a serious menace...
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no, that was 7th ed
http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_Armies:_Hordes_of_Chaos_(6th_Edition) (http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_Armies:_Hordes_of_Chaos_(6th_Edition))
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Those were in the 6th edition Beasts of Chaos AB.
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So envious of your chance to re-live 6th edition! Glory years of playing for me. Although IIRC my Countessa's army was 0.500 at best. Still that was fun.
On another note. Chaos? ::heretic:: ::heretic:: Burn the Heretic!! ::heretic:: ::heretic:: (do we still do that, I'm rusty)
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Game was played last night and was as much fun as I remembered to play 6th. I loved it! Here is my battle report as promised. Lighting isnt great im afraid. I faced a O&G army which consisted of
Orc warboss on Wyvern
Orc level 2 shaman
Goblin level 2 Shaman
Orc BSB
20 Orcs
10 Orc boar boys
3 Trolls
40 Common goblins
2 goblin chariots
4 goblin bolt throwers
2 x 5 wolf riders with spears
10 wolf riders with spear, LA and shields with command
Army
(https://i.imgur.com/w9QY5rc.jpg)
Exalted Daemon - Painted in a 3am late night session the day before, just ilke going to a tournament!
(https://i.imgur.com/yqej2HE.jpg)
Exalted champion of Tzeentch on Disc with golden eye (3++ against all shooting)
(https://i.imgur.com/OjGOAp6.jpg)
5 chosen MoT knights with war banner, 20 marauders and 5 hounds
(https://i.imgur.com/HraQOvH.jpg)
17 Warriors and 20 marauders
(https://i.imgur.com/z8NyKyJ.jpg)
Spawn, 5 hounds, 2 x 5 marauder horse with javelins and spears.
(https://i.imgur.com/7wR1kzZ.jpg)
Deployment
Chaos
(https://i.imgur.com/lg5xU10.jpg)
O&G
(https://i.imgur.com/6XW62ns.jpg)
Turn 1 O&G went first
No animosity or stupidity for orcs and general advance. The bolt throwers were super acurate in the early turns and killed a knight and two marauder horse, who ran off the board. Shamen 'eadbutt'd the knight champion and killed him.
I just advanced, kept the marauder horse behind a wall so chariot couldn't charge them and tried to set a trap in middle. Daemon flew off to flank to scare off wolf riders with Terror. I moved my exalted champion general a bit far away from my main body of army and didn't cover it all with his leadership
(https://i.imgur.com/SnKqvTQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bOgc8hl.jpg)
Turn 2
Boar boys fail animosity, but rolled a 6 and move forward then charged spawn along with chariot. Orc boys unit also failed and squabbled. Large wolf riders charged knight and got themselves smashed and ran off a mightly 17", with knights in hot pursuit. Bolt thrower wounded daemo, but rolled a 1 for number of wounds fortunately One unit of wolf riders fled off board with terror, but other held.
Trolls took the bait and charged and wiped out hounds while the chariot ran over spawn with its impact hits. The boar, mistakenly, chose to overrun and roll massive and got them self exposed, with flank facing the warriors. Chariot over ran into marauders. The warlord flew over my lines ready to cause some terror tests of his own
In my turn the daemon declared charge against wolf riders who fled, then redirected into bolt thrower, which also fled. Knight charge the big unit of wolf rider who were fleeing and chased them off, redirecting into orc shaman, killing him easily, and overran into bolt thrower.. Marauder unit ran away from wyvern, after failing terror test. Warriors charged boarboys who fled and redirected into trolls. Magic caused 9 wounds on goblins with green fire of tzeentch. This makes them all hit each over. And a few wounds on wyvern. Warriors completely fluffed attacks against trolls and only got through 1 wound after regeneration. Trolls killed three with vomit. I won combat but they passed break test with BSB re roll. Marauders won combat with chariot with musician, who also passed test to stand with generals leadership, and lapped round. Exalted charged goblin shaman and killed him, giving me magic superiority
(https://i.imgur.com/pPi3Msz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FwOSMWK.jpg)
Turn 3
Goblins flank charge warriors fighting trolls, who pass panic. Boar boys rally. Wyvern flies back to middle of board to control my flying character. Bolt thrower bags a marauder horseman. Knights kill crew and have a massive overrun through woods towards new one. Orcs panic. My warriors fluff again, killing one gobbo, even after BSB hero moved to fight them, and not hurting trolls. They break and are run down letting gobbos capture BSB. Marauders continue fighting chariot, winning again and further lapping it. Bolt thrower kills a knight
The knigths charge and kill the next bolt thrower crew. Marauders kill the chariot. I continue the magic barrage, but didn't achieve much. Other marauders charge orcs and make them flee. Maruader horse bait chariot and boar boys
(https://i.imgur.com/5OSjCXz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/W6J9g7i.jpg)
Turn 4
Turns went quite quickly now so its a bit of a blur to ill summise both halves. The knights killed the last bolt thrower. The chariot dies to magic, boar boys lose half their number to a blue fire magic missile and gobbos once again lose 8 to green fire and flee, never to rally. Marauders see off orc unit. Wyvern moves away from my character and tries to scare off knights and remaining marauder horse but they pass. I moved characters to blast boar boys and charoit.
(https://i.imgur.com/eedQWDC.jpg)
Turn 5
I have moved the characters to close to wyvern, and just in his arc and get charged. The exalted champion flees but daemon has to take the charge. This will decide the game. However, both side completely fluff attacks and i lose by one to outnumber and pass break test. in my turn the exalted champion rallies and marauder horse charge into help daemon but fail to hurt rider as he has a 1+ save. Daemon managed to cast orange fire, which is full re rolls on himself and proceeds to slay the wyvern and general auto flees to a fear causing enemy wrapping up the game.
(https://i.imgur.com/wxP18Le.jpg)
A narrow victory to chaos! the game was a blast and we had to look up loads of rules, but considering i've not played that rue set for 10+ years it was all still in there and we both had a great time. There were two games of 6th on, and a game of 3rd Ed WFB!
Next game in two weeks, either going to take my DOW or an Empire force you'll be pleased to know. I the mean time i've got a new chaos BSB to paint, after using the unit standard bearer of the warriors as one and his pathetic performance the punishment of the Tzeentch for it.
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How much fun is that?!
I started in 6ed and that felt completely natural. Excellent report. Back then the only BR’s I had to read was in the WD. Did not know of online community at the time.
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Liking this. :smile2:
-Z
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I like it! :icon_biggrin: :::cheers:::
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Following this, a blast from the past!
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Loving this. 6th Edition was the main one I played for years. I think I got into the hobby around 5th edition, but didn't really play games or read rules till 6th started. I still remember glory days of sniping the vampire count general with ballista's and cannons, only for him to rush my army before crumbling away.
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Let's do this next bash guys.
Back to what happened at the very first one. Everybody plays 6th....
Some for 1500 points, others for 2000. Sometimes even at the same battle....
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Like the time you took 3000ptd of ogres against my 2000pts of WoC :roll:
Totally up the it at the next bash!
I’m going to use my DOW in the next game, they are really bad in 6th with out a rufus special army list to help them.
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Another reminder for me to get a frickin' passport. :icon_lol:
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Like the time you took 3000ptd of ogres against my 2000pts of WoC ::)
Totally in good faith, and we only found out by turn 3 or so.... good times...
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:::cheers:::
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Got another game tomorrow. I’ve been asked to take a chaos list against his Empire. He wants to use his witch hunter he has just painted up.
I’ve decided to try a monster mash army. All undivided.
Lord on foot gift of gods (4++)
Sorcerer on foot with dms and spell familiar
Bsb on foot with crimson armour of dargan
18 warriors with Halberd and shield full command, mark of tzeentch and war banner
3 x 5 marauder horse with spears and musician
2 x 5 warhounds
6 trolls with extra hand weapons
3 dragon ogres with gw
Chimera with flaming breath and regeneration
I’ll get another report up after the game.
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I look forward to seeing it.
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Ended up playing tie games last night in 3 hours. My opponent conceded turn three in the first and turn four in second. I only took pictures of first game so I’ll share those. Second game we were just trying to get through.
His army was empire
Wizard lord - fire
Level 2 - metal
Level 2 - death
Witch hunter
14 knights F.C.
20 swordsmen F.C. two 5 man handgunners dets
20 handgunners
3 cannons
Hbvg
5 pistoliers
A classic gun line with a big block of knights.
Deployment
(https://i.imgur.com/IrylN55.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9KvLhaq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/a81KPWM.jpg)
Turn one empire goes first
He doesn’t move up except pistoliers and swords men with dets on my left. All his wizards are out of range of their spells more or less as I deployed half inch behind line. I set it deployment dice at 11.5” to catch him. Cannons did three wounds to a dragon ogre, kill a troll but missed chimera due to misfire.
My turn it’s a general advance, marauder horse change pistoliers, two die to Stand and shoot and other three get killed in combat. Not good. They kill two pistoliers. I set up trap with hounds in middle and chimera and horsemen on flank.
(https://i.imgur.com/P3mCwbv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dBtwkSI.jpg)
Turn two
He falls for trap, hounds flee. Dragon ogres lose two to cannons and flee. Chimera survives cannon hit. Magic kills a few and other shooting only kills one hounds on left
My turn I flank charge knights with chimera, horsemen run off cannon crew, other hounds charge hand gunner det
Chimera kills four knights, runs them down. Charging straight across into middle of empire army for panic tests then terror test at the start of turn three. Game over
(https://i.imgur.com/2TEIDQa.jpg)
Mortal of the story; 1) don't fall for obvious traps and, 2), even with a gun line army don't remain static and let your opponent dictate the game.
As it was only 9pm, we resent the game and played again. No pictures, ended in a similar way, cahso lord and warriors beat the knights and marauder horse in the flank ran them down. Much closer game though, I lost the trolls, DO and Chimera. HBVG exploded in a pathetic way. As we all know, the empire army need the leadership of the EC or TGM and gun line armies need cheap chaff and Pegasus captains to throw out and slow down the enemy to give all those lovely shooting units a chance.
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Ah yes, empire gunline armies. Not a great matchup for a chaos list! Still, the small arms fire could actually do something against infantry units in 6th edition, when they were usually between 15-30 strong. Shooting crossbows at 50 strong 8th edition hordes was largely pointless.
Great to be able to read warhammer battle reports again! Any more games on the horizon? Looking forward to a DOW report, I've always loved that army. Wish they'd got a proper army book in 6th, 7th or 8th.
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Thanks black knight.
Game planned for every other monday. Playing 40k on the other Mondays . The guys have also started playing on Saturdays as well but i tend to be busy; kids!
Ill run the DOW next time. They arent a great army, core units cost to much. The chaos list i took was a little strong i think to the stanard and level of play. I struggle with being too competitive tbh.
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I struggle with being too competitive tbh.
Really ?
Couldn't tell...
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These were the days. The writing, the art, the rules. Not to mention the WFRP 2nd edition, which took the lore and some modified rules from the 6th edition WFB.
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Let's do this next bash guys.
Back to what happened at the very first one. Everybody plays 6th....
Some for 1500 points, others for 2000. Sometimes even at the same battle....
Back to 6th.
Looks like those old books might come in handy! Time to start prepare and rebase units, so I will be ready bye the next bash.
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These were the days. The writing, the art, the rules. Not to mention the WFRP 2nd edition, which took the lore and some modified rules from the 6th edition WFB.
True, there was a lot of great stuff about 6th. The setting especially. It felt somehow smaller, more intimate. There was less crazy magic and monsters, the whole world seemed more grounded and, in a sense, closer to our reality.
In comparison, 8th was more bombastic, there was crazy stuff at every corner and only 1 forest in 6 didn't try to murder you. Every other river you tried and dipped your toe in was magical. I remember that I didn't like that at all. I was like "okay, but how does this world function. How are crops gathered if every bit of land is cursed/magical. How does trade work, how is travelling by sea even possible if chances of being eaten by a kraken are like 99%". 6th didn't have that. It was still magical but it was a bit more like the Song of Ice and Fire world. Much more logical and easier to understand.
It's hard to root for an empire dude with a halberd, if you know that it's a normal occurence that whole cities disappear overnight due to demonic incursions. Reading the End Times fluff was just painful. It was all like this "And then THIS crazy occurrence happened, which was followed by ANOTHER even CRAZIER occurrence". Really hard to relate to, at least for me. Stuff like this is good for 40k where the scale is larger.
Not to say that 8th was all bad. I liked a lot of the rules changes between 6th and 8th. Enyone remember being broken because you lost the fight to skeletons and there was one more of them than you? No break test, just wooosh! Off you go! Or no step up. Heyyy I know you wanted to roll some dice, well your fron rank is dead sooorry. Halberds being next to usless in 6th and 7th due to this.
I think I could play both: 6th for smaller battles, like 1000-1500 points, 8th for 2500-3000 epic battles, with killer monsters and spells.
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What The Black Knight said. The Empire armybook wasn't spared either. We got knights riding monstrous mounts and self-propelled magical contraptions, while the common state trooper was stomped into the curd. I never played a single game of it.
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To be fair skeletons in 6th ed were a lot more points than later on to pay for it. But combined with a Strigoi Lord was quite an enjoyable power combo I would run...
Skeletons by themselves were very rarely winning combats. Zombies were also horrible, ghouls were skirmishers and graveguard were very expensive. It was only if you have some combined combats and some vampire combat characters would you get that result.
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6th was the reaction to herohammer 5th. More about units of 30-20 with supporting character. Single characters and monsters weren’t supposed to kill units in a frontal charge on their own. A proper game needing combos and tactics.
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I think 6th edition had the killing power of cheap core troops be too low though. I died a little inside every time someone would have a spear-and-shield-armed unit use hand weapons instead just for the extra armour save, not even trying to kill anything but just stand there providing rank bonus.
I think the perfect edition for me would be one with the unit stats of 6th edition, the support attacks and step-up of 8th edition, and some softer, less all-or-nothing variant of steadfast.
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Yes, we can dream. Somewhere in the multi-verse, someone is playing the perfect version of Warhammer.
Mind you, they probably do nothing else, and so their non-wargaming life is a mess. Maybe we should be thankful we are in this plane of reality?
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@BlackKnight we just heavily modified the magic terrain rules in 8th. They were utterly ridiculous.
8th edition but with 7th edition style army lists was my favourite!
ie early 8th edition. also before the army book creep got too bad
Looking forward to cracking out my OnG this weekend vs fr1day- never played a 6th ed game with them so could be interesting!
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@Padre - that is a bit less comforting, when one thinks that we're stuck in this version of reality where Fantasy Battles got blown up! :icon_cry:
@Finlay - yeah I think I only played one game with the magical terrain. I remember my swordmasters gaining Timewarp after walking into a stream. Those poor dwarf miners never saw that coming! We reverted to using "normal" terrain from that moment on.
Note that I am not opposed to 8th, there's a lot of good stuff in it too! I'm currently playing an 8th ed mini campagin with my brother. Trying to give him the itch to paint fantasy, as he has 2 large armies but hasn't done much with them. Between the 2 of us we have 7 armies. I wrote 7 balanced and well-rounded 1000 point army lists, one for each force. Then he picked which army he wants to play throughout the campagin. Then each battle I take one of the other 6 lists and we have quick game. We randomly determine which army I am playing each round (no army can be played twice). This way he gets to practice and learn the rules and I get to have some fun cycling through all the armies we have. Since all the lists were written before he got his pick, non of them are tailored or OP. Just generally balanced lists. He went for VC and It's been going pretty well for him (murdered my Night Goblins, then got trampled by Bretonnians but now he smashed apart the Empire).
Anyways - sorry for derailing your thread FR1DAY! Waiting for your next game with anticipation.
Cheers.
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turn 1!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1974/45049917541_dfb9d51247_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2bCUAYe)IMG_20180930_115429_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2bCUAYe) by Finlay Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144421420@N06/), on Flickr
Fr1day triggers my fanatics with fast cavalry, I choose to launch them in front of my own army and risk them scattering next turn into his army! yolo, right. waaagh.
Well the next turn a Fanatic spins into my great shaman, does several wounds, but I manage to save enough with war boss ums hat.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1955/44330898494_21484f0518_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2axnrE7)IMG_20180930_121307_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2axnrE7) by Finlay Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144421420@N06/), on Flickr
this gamble paid off later as the fanatics would later spin into and wipe out a unit of his fast cavalry, and his wizard who was hiding between some of his units. they must have had homing devices in their mushrooms.
In that magic phase Snazgrippa then cats Hand of Mork into a chariot, which charges the knights, rolls 6 impact hits, kills 5 of them and runs them down!
who then hand of morks a chariot into some knights, who gets 6 impact hits, and runs them down!
from this
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1950/31177706178_7068529aa9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Pv4TQf)IMG_20180930_115449_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/Pv4TQf) by Finlay Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144421420@N06/), on Flickr
to this
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1966/31177705728_412eacbd67_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Pv4TGu)IMG_20180930_123843_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/Pv4TGu) by Finlay Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144421420@N06/), on Flickr
decisive final combat: savage orc big uns > pikemen. My NG had managed to hold a couple of combat rounds with the Bad Boon Banner, with fr1day forgetting to target, then rolling poorly, to kill the very vulnerable BSB. It's a trick that will only work once vs him but was worth it :P
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1910/45049917051_d4103f1c20_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2bCUAPM)IMG_20180930_145239_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/2bCUAPM) by Finlay Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144421420@N06/), on Flickr
then the savage big uns got into the rear and mashed up about 15 humans.
I took 6 levels of magic in this game knowing OnG were fairly weak in 6th and hoping to counteract that.
But Fr1day had taken a pretty fluffy DoW list. While they have fast cavalry and skirmishers which are important, and let you do nice tactical tricks (which the OnG list is bad at) the points investment into a crappy big unit of pikes lowers the power level. combined with magical supremacy and good luck (I cast, and then made the 2d6 dice roll to charge, Hand of Mork every single time I tried it) it was a victory for SnazGrippa and his crew. Reading the rules agian I'm not sure if I'm allowed to hand of Gork Chariots- the spell says "any Orc or Goblin unit (of any type)". so does a chariot count as an orc unit of any type, or does it count as a war machine? Could I cast the spell on trolls?
We played another game and fr1day wrecked me, immediately cannoning both my chariots, frenzy baiting my savage big uns across my lines and then picking off my units one by one.
I didn't take any photos of that game :P
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Love the ork result in the first game. Not sure about anyone else but the pics didn’t show up.
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Not sure about anyone else but the pics didn’t show up.
Same...?
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Not sure about anyone else but the pics didn’t show up.
Same...?
Same !
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Weird, 'cos the pictures are there now and have always been there. Have you guys all leaned a book against your screen or something?
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No pics for me.
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Oh, brilliant Fr1day, the bleemin' pics have been destroyed for me too by your comment.
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so no one can see them?
what photo uploading site do people use now photobuckets dead?
edited above with more description and flickr photos, hope it's working.
6th ed is awesome.
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I can see them on my phone.
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Love the pics. MASSIVE NOSTALGIA.
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Glorious battle!
Very nice pictures, keep bringing them up. This sort of thing is inspiring, hopefully I'll be able to get a match with every unit painted soon enough.
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Pics showed up! Glorious board and to see those orks all massed up - brings a tear to my eye. I learned the ork ways with 6 Ed and I can pretty much say O&G were my favorite army.
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I can see them now as well. That board looks fantastic, and the battle as well.
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Love the pics. MASSIVE NOSTALGIA.
Make the Empire great again ! Bring your rats to the next Bash
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Love the pics. MASSIVE NOSTALGIA.
Make the Empire great again ! Bring your rats to the next Bash
Huh - I doubt it - he couldn't even beat me ………………………………… :engel:
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Dude, when that game began I still had hair. You used the tried and tested method of "wait till your opponent dies of old age, then assume a victory pose".
:ph34r:
As for the rats: I think half the roster of today's Skaven didn't exist in the 6th edition book, right? I started playing them in 7th when they got new models. Always liked the concept, hated the old monkey rat men.
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Yeah not all "oldies" are "goldies" unfortunately. Although I did like the old metal plague monks more then their plastic counterparts.
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Dude, when that game began I still had hair. You used the tried and tested method of "wait till your opponent dies of old age, then assume a victory pose".
:ph34r:
Not the best strategy in Midaski's case.... although he has lived longer than the rest of us, so he might be better at it....
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Love the pics. MASSIVE NOSTALGIA.
Make the Empire great again ! Bring your rats to the next Bash
Midaski, you failed to catch the subtle tease in this remark.
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Love the pics. MASSIVE NOSTALGIA.
Make the Empire great again ! Bring your rats to the next Bash
Midaski, you failed to catch the subtle tease in this remark.
So, this confirms a 2019 edition of the Eurobash and also that it theme will be 6th edition: "Back to the goldies".
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Love the pics. MASSIVE NOSTALGIA.
Make the Empire great again ! Bring your rats to the next Bash
Midaski, you failed to catch the subtle tease in this remark.
So, this confirms a 2019 edition of the Eurobash and also that it theme will be 6th edition: "Back to the goldies".
I know, it's an addiction
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Of course I got the inference - cannon fodder is always needed, but I actually cannot remember whether I was playing his rats or his chaos, it was so long ago.
You didn't think our German friend would get it - I mean it's well known they don't understand any clever humour. :closed-eyes:
It was the year I went undefeated all weekend, :engel: and we were in the first HQ venue.
Probably got a pic somewhere.
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It was the year I went undefeated all weekend
:biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin: :biggriin:
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It was the year I went undefeated all weekend
Attendees still tell of the legend of the glacier in hushed voices.
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Slow play is seriously looked down upon these days. Fetch the chess clock
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Love the pics. MASSIVE NOSTALGIA.
Make the Empire great again ! Bring your rats to the next Bash
Huh - I doubt it - he couldn't even beat me ………………………………… :engel:
Probably because the army list is still being prepared. :icon_wink:
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I really liked 6th ed. It would be good to get some games of that again. Nice to see people are going back to it.
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My local club was going to have a 7th edition campaign to try and draw back some of the long beards to the store. Fairly last minute they put up a poll on facebook to see what people would prefer, and 6th is winning by a good 30% of the votes. (With 8th, then 2nd behind it in the poll. 8th I can see just by number of players, but there's a remarkable strong 2nd contingent apparently.)
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2nd ed is complicated and long winded IMO. Long live sixth!
I've got my next game on Monday. Not sure what to take; Empire or DOW. Lots of work to do to raise the empire army from its slumbers. Though the thought of a TVI style list is very appealing and will blow them away tactically.
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i'm thinking of ebay-ing a steamtank for a 6th ed empire army, Never used one!
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2nd ed is complicated and long winded IMO. Long live sixth!
I've got my next game on Monday. Not sure what to take; Empire or DOW. Lots of work to do to raise the empire army from its slumbers. Though the thought of a TVI style list is very appealing and will blow them away tactically.
I'm considering a Dogs of Wars army. Pikes for the win :)
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They are to expensive in the 6th ed list. 10 points each for a single S3 attack only with light armour.
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i'm thinking of ebay-ing a steamtank for a 6th ed empire army, Never used one!
War wagon instead ?
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i'm thinking of ebay-ing a steamtank for a 6th ed empire army, Never used one!
The 6th edition tank rules are ridiculous. It won me so many games by itself.
Cheattacular!
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I never used one. Not until this campaign, 8th ed rules, and then I made a rubbish Tilean version of it, which the maestro tried to turn into a mobile wall-ramp for siege purposes, but then the enemy sallied and destroyed it by locking it into place with ethereal troops. So ... extra rubbish. Maybe I should try the 'real' thing soon?
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They are to expensive in the 6th ed list. 10 points each for a single S3 attack only with light armour.
I thought that you could give them heavy armour for an extra point. It is true that they are expensive but they are cool. Heavily armoured pikemen are fun. I'm trying to build a sort of pike and shoot army
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i'm thinking of ebay-ing a steamtank for a 6th ed empire army, Never used one!
The 6th edition tank rules are ridiculous. It won me so many games by itself.
Cheattacular!
Doesn't damage really mess them up though?
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i'm thinking of ebay-ing a steamtank for a 6th ed empire army, Never used one!
The 6th edition tank rules are ridiculous. It won me so many games by itself.
Cheattacular!
It's alive !
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Doesn't damage really mess them up though?
It does, but you specifically need high-strength attacks (like cannonfire) and some armies just can't do it.
It's alive !
Maybe!
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I always bring 2 of those
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Game on tonight, taking a toughened up DOW list as dont have time to sort out my empire army. Though i do need to get out some knights and duelists with pistols.
List:
Mercenary general on Pegasus
Paymaster on barded warhorse - barded knights
Wizard on foot
Captain on war horse - unbarded knights
14 knights with FC
9 barded knights with FC
3 x 5 light cav with spears
9 duelists with pistols
25 bearmen of Urslo
10 halflings
4 Ogres with GW
2 cannons
It'll be a quick game, 4 turns max.
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pics and summary please!
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Will do
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That is a fairly tough list.... except the halflings and large unit size knights?
Usually dropping points into some dwarf infantry is better spent? Would probably work well with the bearmen as your other infantry block?
And 2 units of duelists better than 1?
Why general on pegasus?
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It was a quick game. Two and a half turns and all over. Played brettonians. His list was
Lord on hippogriff
Three damsels
Bsb
Two units of six knights of realm
Thirty men at arms
Two units of ten bowmen
Six yeomen
Three Pegasus knights
Trebuchet
I just got in his face, he prayed so I went first. Full advance keeping just out of charge range. Cannon killed two knights but other one failed to wound the trebuchet and a crew man! This was a continuing theme for this cannon.
(https://i.imgur.com/rmTGogN.jpg) main line
(https://i.imgur.com/sHiKhAq.jpg) right flank
(https://i.imgur.com/7glWALP.jpg) left flank
In his turn he cast wolf hunts and magic charged the damaged knights in to my 15 man unit. I tanked all the hits on 5+'s. Captain killed one knight after ward saves. But ranks, outnumber and etc I broken them and ended one inch behind them.
(https://i.imgur.com/EsaBbnw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DtBS8rP.jpg)
Next turn general changed the other knights in flank, ogres in front. Medium Knights changed fleeing knights, destroyed them and redirected into bowmen, killing them and overrunning off board. General and ogres smashed knights the auto fled from fear causing ogres. They run them down
Cannon failed to wound hippogriff and a Pegasus knight! Two ones. Other cannon wound brettonian lord causing three wounds but he had an item that limits him to taking one wound a phase.
His turn men at arms flank change ogres. Hippogriff rear changes heavy knights and paymaster. Pegasus knights charge and kill a cannon. Ogres managed to hold the flank charge after one of them splatting three peasants and them not doing any damage. Knight champion challenged out hippogriff and took five wounds but I passed my break test on five.
In my turn general and medium knights set up charges for turn four, the bear men flanked charged the men at arms and, along with ogres murdered peasants, running them down. The hippogriff and lord could only kill one knight and failed breaktest and got ran down and we called it then. Oh and the cannon once again failed to wound a Pegasus knight!
Didn't get anymore pictures i'm afraid. The game went very quickly, I find 6th, in comparrison to 8th 40K plays really quickly. Love it.
I'm keen to take on some Skaven soon, there are a couple of armies being played at club. Also HE, WE and lots of Empire :happy:
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Reading these really makes me wanna play a game of 6th... :unsure:
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"The game went very quickly, I find 6th, in comparrison to 8th 40K plays really quickly. Love it"
so much this. love it.
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It’s a lot less dice rolling. Maybe rolled 100 dice total. In 40k one unit shoots 40 shots a turn
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By the way, I like the terrain mat, where's that from?
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It’s a fat mat from frontline gaming
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Congrats
Are 6th Berts any good? I was thinking of building a list.
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Are 6th Berts any good?
Not sure, but Ernies make for a good army. :lol:
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They are okay game wise with certain builds and super fluffy with others.
Just knights and Pegasus knights make a competitive list with two trebuchet as support for softening up any strong infantry units. The s10/s5 no save kills units. Some bowmen are okay, though just to hold ground and protect trebuchets. Hippogriff is a lacklustre monster, so avoid. You get an extra character slot for compulsory bsb, which is nice. The damsels only have access to life and beast spells, which aren’t the best, the revised spells from 2004 chronicle are necessary.
Fireforge do some nice models, cheaply, for them. That is what my opponent had.
https://fireforge-games.com/fantasy-knights-42 (https://fireforge-games.com/fantasy-knights-42)
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I did miss the lack of heavy infantry when I read the list.
Is it worth praying though when you lose the chance to go first.
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That is a fairly tough list.... except the halflings and large unit size knights?
Usually dropping points into some dwarf infantry is better spent? Would probably work well with the bearmen as your other infantry block?
And 2 units of duelists better than 1?
Why general on pegasus?
Warlord, it’s not far off as tough you can make a Dow list without arsnil the dragon lord
Half lungs are good to protect flanks and cannons. Although only bows they are bs4 and ld 8 so can look after themselves. They can shot down small flanking units of light cavalry and are only 60pts
Took the big knights as it gives you a little redundancy. You can loose a couple and still function. With captain for wound output as well they are good. Charge 16” as well as they have no barding. . This catches people off guard.
Sort of agree on dwarves, but so slow. The list is about early pressure and the bear men are the slowest with 8” in assault force.
When I wrote the list I had two units of dualists with pistols, but needed to trim one unit.
General on Pegasus is to spread the leadership around in a quick army. You need it in case something fluffs it’s attacks and need to take break test or panic test.
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Yes to praying. The ward save is really useful and going second isn’t a terrible thing as they move into your charge range.
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My gunlines never moved. They never won, either, but that's a different matter.
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But if they pray they have an armour and ward save against all that shooting.
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I got another game in last night at my club, this time against an empire list. I was expecting to face a Skaven clan pestilence Nurglitch list from the 2004 lustrian campaign, but he changed last minute. We played at 2500pts, which means you have to bring more core basically. No more heros, rare and special but 25% more points. We had a no dispel magic scroll agreement.
I took the same DOW list as last time, just fleshed out. I added a unit of 13 duelists with XHW, 12 Norse with GW, 10 Xbows and another 10 Heavy cavalry without barding. This gave me 35 heavy cav and 15 light cav!
His lists was:
Wizard lord
Wizard
BSB
Warrior priest
10 IC knights
2 cannons, volley gun, Ram version steam tank!!!!!
20 Handgunners with command
25 Spearmen with 8 FC
20 spearmen with 5 HG and 9 FC
20 swordsmen with 5 HG
7 pistolers
My Deployment: I forgot to pic the empire deployment
Right flank(https://i.imgur.com/rWd9YFD.jpg)
Centre
Left flank(https://i.imgur.com/4QeMOmj.jpg)
Turn 1
Empire went first
He generated the full 5 steam points on tank and went the full 15" forward, advance his knights to the side of it and infantry in centre and my left up. Right hand infantry held to defend cannon. Pistoliers advance up left flank, In the magic phase the wizard lord incinerated a unit of light cavalry on left but units within 4" were either frenzied or passed.
Shooting was limited to cannons, one misfired and other over shot against my cannons and only got a crew man
(https://i.imgur.com/nGwLE9B.jpg) left flank mid way through his move
(https://i.imgur.com/pMzv61P.jpg) centre and right
My turn
I advanced my forces as best i could, I was a bit cramped in centre and left. I moved a unit of 5 light cav 1" from steam tank and backed them up with ogres. General moved back to the middle of my line to give leadership to light cav ready for coming terror tests
on left i just moved the knights up in front of norse infantry.
Magic phase say my wizard steed of shadows himself up into the empire lines to march block, while staying out of charge archs. I bluffed him into letting it go, expecting my larger spell on three dice. I didn't manage to cast pit of shades.
Shooting wise one cannon did three wounds on tank, the other failed to wound cannon, but killed a crew. Then the halflings opened up with there bows, at long range and killed 7 out of 8 FC :icon_eek: However, this is not good as the last guy passed his test and then counts as a single model with 360 charge arc! The Xbows killed three pistolers and made them run off board. Duelists killed one IC knight
Turn 2
Empire, the steam tank didn't have much choice but to charge light cav, who passed terror test with generals leadership. single FC charged my wizard. The rest of right flank as slowed to crawl by my wizard march blocking. The left settled in to thin my advancing units.
Magic wise not much happened, I used my three dice to dispel one spell, be got of guardian light with level 2 giving right flank IoP..
Shooting resulted in other cannon misfiring, the other couldn;t shoot this turn. The handgunners killed 2 barded knights, 5 HG det killed one LC screening HC behind
Combat. FC wounded the wizard and he failed to kill FC in return. The wizard then passed his break test. The steam tank only got 1 D3 impact hits as it had moved less than 3". But still killed 2 LC sending them fleeing as out numbered by terror causer. I passed the couple of panic tests due to Ld9 general.
DOW, I passed a terror test on duelist in centre and panic for fleeing LC. The LC refused to rally and fled off board. So on to charges. The ogres charged the tank, passing fear test to do so. The LC on right charged the HG det, they killed another one with SaS and HC charged spearmen, a gamble against a fully ranked unit with no character support for them. Left advanced again, moving paymaster closer to centre for the re rolls. General flew over the empire line to land in middle, keeping in range for Ld where needed. Duelists with pistols moved to be 7.5" from IC knights to shoot them and be able to stand and shoot when they charged on turn three. Duelists in middle occupy the woods, keeping 1.5" back from edge so they can see out.
Magic my wizard irresistible cast steed of shadows and moved out of combat next to general, result.
Shooting, one cannon put 2 wounds the empire cannon, dam the D3 wounds rather than D6, on left and other over shot the IC knights. duelist failed to kill a IC knight after three saves. Halflings failed to injure the knights either. Xbows killed three HG
In combat the orgres caused a mighty 23 wounds on steam tank leaving it on 1 hull point left! Boom, love S6. LC just beat HG det and ran them down pursing into the cannon crew. HC smashed the spearmen, beating them by three but they held.
left flank (https://i.imgur.com/df2MaEA.jpg)
right flank (https://i.imgur.com/ezx18a5.jpg)
centre(https://i.imgur.com/zAThJDs.jpg)
Turn 3
Empire. Steam tank, on only one hull point has to try and leave combat, but predictably fails generating roll and dies. The ogres would to killed it in the combat phase anyway. IC knights charge duelsits who dont kill any of them with SaS. FC det charge dueslist in wood, they were just in. Spearmen in middle advance 4" as still march blocked and swordsmen position to take charge on left.
Magic sees 4 norse with GW fried to a firey blast, I dispelled fireball
Shooting is limited. HG's kill 5 barded knights, they pass test, and volley gun bags four more norse, leaving only four, but jams. They are frenzied so don't care.
In combat the IC knights roll badly and only kill 4 pistol duelists, who kill 2 in return with pistols. However, they lose and run. Knights try to with strain but roll 12 and run them down, leaving them well out of position, half way over a wall. The LC just manage to break the cannon crew and the HC finish off the spearmen and both units purse off the board. In the centre the FC beat the duelists in the wood by two, but they passed break test as general and BSB were in range.
(https://i.imgur.com/TztyWKG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IQRcroQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4Gpgeu2.jpg)
DOW, I charged the remaining Norse with GW into the HG detachment to tie them up but they killed two of the remaining 4 with a SaS. The paymaster and remaining two barded knights flank charge the FC fighting in the wood, they passed their panic test. In other movement, the HC and LC that pursued off the board came back on and captain on horse joined the ogres. The big block of HC charged the now exposed level 2 wizard and FC. and the bearmen piled forward.
Magic didnt cast anything.
Shooting, the cannons delivered this turn. One destroyed the remaining empire cannon and the other killed 5 IC knights with a flank shot and made them panic, never to rally as below 25%. Halflings didn't do much and xbows killed another 2 hand gunners from big unit.
In combat the wizard and FC got wiped out and the big HC combat reformed to flank the big spearmen. The Paymaster, knights and duelists, who at I 4 attacked first broke the FC unit, the Paymaster pursued and wiped them out. Duelists held. THe two Norse with GW only killed 2 HG and lost one in return meaning a draw combat.
(https://i.imgur.com/mv7vnD7.jpg) not looking good for the spearmen! :evil:
(https://i.imgur.com/kr1g9Jk.jpg)
Turn 4
Empire, the game was up really, but he played on. Just an overview he did a bit on minor moving, magic missiles on my general caused a couple of wounds on pegasus, handgunners killed a few bearmen. No wounds in the combat between the Norse and HG, so Norse lost combat, but passed test, though lost frenzy.
(https://i.imgur.com/RcOfe1U.jpg)
DOW, the Big Empire spearman unit got charged in front, flank and rear simultaneously
(https://i.imgur.com/3OqE4Xp.jpg)
Other units advanced on remaining empire forces, and my General bravely charged the flank of the big HG unit.
The spearmen got squashed big time, the Ogres flattened the BSB then broke and were run down. They killed 18 of 26 on charge
(https://i.imgur.com/2ldiw96.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fNv3ACI.jpg?1)
General only killed 2 HG on charge, and lost to musician! He passed break test as Paymaster was at hand.
A fun game, the Empire army was balanced, big unit of HG can work but they need a 5 man FC unit and a 5 man archer unit of screen and protect them to make sure they can fire as long as possible. The Knights not holding back, and chasing the dueslists down as a big thing. It exposed their flank to cannon and took them out of game. The big spearmen unit would of not been in quiet as much trouble if they had held back.
Lastly, and mainly, the over commitment of the steam tank turn one was a massive mistake. It wants a 15" charge to be at its most effective so really, it only wants to move a max of 8-10" to keep that sort of range. It also wants supporting with a unit of knights (5 with musician), to scrape things off it and purse broken enemies (tanks can't purse), and infantry to follow up and exploit the hole in the enemy line or the tanks rear.
More fun next week!
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Thanks for the report!
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Excellent! And good to see! :icon_cool: :::cheers:::
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Wow. Smashing 18 out of 26 is impressive
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Managed to get a 6000pts game in over the xmas break. My EMpire against the skaven.
I took a few pictures, but no notes. Here they are with an over view of the game. Needless to say the Empire was victorious and just mopping up survivors by turn 4 :biggriin:
Deployment:
Skaven left
(https://i.imgur.com/5KCJ0vK.jpg)
Middle
(https://i.imgur.com/yZb5oeT.jpg)
Right
(https://i.imgur.com/xJJ2Hy3.jpg)
Empire Left
(https://i.imgur.com/0lb8sQb.jpg)
Middle
(https://i.imgur.com/tA4TVJJ.jpg)
Right
(https://i.imgur.com/xNgUHTH.jpg)
Full view from either end
(https://i.imgur.com/L3MUiBg.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iLbTNgd.jpg)
Turn one
Empire goes first. Killed doomwheel with cannons, failed to kill lightening cannon as it passed its ward save. mortared the stormvermin and killeda few jezzails and a ratling gun team with another cannon.
General advance from skaven. warp lightning zaps a 5 man knight unit off board. the bell rolls a 9 and causes D3 wounds to all war machines and D6 on tank. This destroys 4 war machines out right, seriously wounds the remaining and puts 4 wounds on tank. Ouch!. Hunstmen bait out a charge from censer bearers
(https://i.imgur.com/SvHZfmM.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5uJHSgi.jpg)
Turn two
The fun begins. Flagellants charge the rat ogres, break them and run them off the board. pegasus and knights charge giant rats, with Throt the unclean. Only killed 7 on charge and throt killing blowed the captain on the pegasus and seroiusly wounded the pegasus and with the rank bonus caused them to run. However, they cant pursue due to throts rules. Knights crash into slave screens and route them, pursuing into the clan rats behind. tanks target fails terror test and flees. Infantry hold middle. Cannons kill both warp lightning throwers. My wizard lord blasts the gutter runners, killing 5 and causing a panic check and they flee off board.
(https://i.imgur.com/8iZR2rY.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/19p7zDd.jpg)
In skaven turn they advance further into my left and centre. Thanquol casts Plague but i used the seal of destruction and detsroy it! I soak up some lightening. The bell gives all skaven hatred. The knights then destroy all the clan rats and globidiers and pursue onwards. Except Bone ripper who kills three white wolf and holds them up. The bell charges and destroys a FC detachment, changing its facing and overruns into archer screen.
(https://i.imgur.com/53g1J7t.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/I1MEz7v.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1y7n2Ed.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KKqKUHA.jpg)
Turn three
The steam tank and knights remove clan rats in their way, knights smash through remaining clan rats as well. Bone ripper continues to hold up KoWW but Thanquol panics and flees. HBVG removes censer bearers. infantry reforms for ranks then in magically charged into bell combat. They proceed to break bell unit in combat and run it down. After that, with all the skaven magic users dead or fleeing and the only empire units lost the 5 knights, 4 war machines and a couple of 5 man detachments it was game over.
(https://i.imgur.com/lFNs0AY.jpg)
A great big fun game for the xmas break. Also played in 4 hours, so not bad at all. Next game of 6th is Monday. Empire against something elfish i think. Im going to go TVI style and see how that goes. I'll post a list over the next couple of days, going for 2500pts so only 4 character but loads of points for troops.
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Nice. Massive battle. Shame the skaven aren’t painted like your empire was. Would have been glorious! :icon_mrgreen:
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I have 6000 pts Skaven painted...
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I have 6000 pts Skaven painted...
……………. but by whom? :engel:
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I have nothing but awe and admiration for a whole gaming club deciding to resume 6th edition, and salute their decision! But...
(and this is the part that gives truth to the saying, courtesy of Eddard Stark, that nothing said before the word "but" really matters...)
This is mainly directed not at FR1DAY & co, but rather at us who cheer them on from the sidelines, very much including myself.
I do think we're thinking of 6th edition in a rose-tinted, nostalgic way. I know I do, or did, since 6th edition is when I got into this glorious madness that is fantasy mass battle wargaming. We remember 6th edition fondly for all that was good about it, especially on points where later editions were a change for the worse. What we don't remember so clearly, but would remember acutely if we played it ourselves, is everything that was so-so:
-Terrain rules that basically reduced to passable terrain, impassable terrain and terrain that's effectively impassable to all but skirmishers due to slowing you down so much. Oh, and hills that gave LOS over things not on them in far from clear ways.
-Magic rules that favoured an all-or-nothing investment
-Game balance that was ok for the most part, but had entire swathes of clearly underpowered unit entries within books, and a few books or compositions that were utterly mental
-Range-guessing. While free measurement or not is a general topic of longstanding controversy among wargamers, 6th edition imposed far too severe consequences for estimating wrong, and gave far too big an advantage to the player who is better at eyeballing bees' dicks. It made the difference between being able and not being able to do things like place yourself in a position where you can charge but not be charged, or snipe monsters with a catapult.
-Core rank and file having so low damage output that there was hardly ever a reason to do anything else than go hand weapon + shield, trying to just survive and provide rank bonus. I died a little inside I'd see troops with spears or halberds not use them for this reason.
-The Steam Tank. Not due to being overpowered, but in being a textbook example in how to not do game design, having its own rules for everything, including things that the core rules were completely adequate for, breaking and nullifying all kinds of other effects in the process. Such as having hull points instead of toughness and armour, rendering all kinds of armour-negating effects irrelevant, when such should reasonably be the best thing to do against a frigging tank.
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I have 6000 pts Skaven painted...
……………. but by whom? :engel:
What does it matter ? Mine are painted.. They were when I bought them...
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Nice reports and thanks a bunch for posting them!
I also have to agree with von Richtmark on his assessment of 6th. I happened to start gaming during 5th ed., but 6th quickly followed and I have many fond memories of that time.
One of my main gripes - rules wise - really is the underdog that infantry was, compared to cavalry or monsters. I feel that the step-up rule from 8th is a huge improvement and makes (Empire) infantry so much more interesting. I also agree with the others that TVI tactics were really cool though.
I remember making a 36 strong halberd block, which was insanely large to our standards back then, and I beat a boar boy big 'un charge to the front because of the BSB with Griffon standard in there, but these gimmicks only worked once obviously. A more common example was this kind of block being flanked by fast cav and routed, infantry was too vulnerable in my mind, therefore being relegated to the role of anvil without bite (Chaos Warriors f.e. excluded). My 'elite' Greatswords very rarely got a swing in.
I do definitely agree with others in this thread too, that the vibe in 6th was great and the world was more down to earth and believable, yet still very much Warhammer. The models reflected this I think, if you look at Empire 6th ed. state troops, greatswords, flagellants for example, they are more wiry and realistically proportioned, without greatly oversized weapons. Very cool.
Fond times indeed! Our group (all 4th/5th veterans) still has most fun with the 8th ed. rules though, we just had a 5000pt battle last weekend and it was a blast. All WHFB is good WHFB though so by all means keep it coming!! :biggriin:
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Looks like what, an 8 ft table? Seems like some good action going in the game. :::cheers:::
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Thanks guys, it was fun.
GP - yes an 8FT table, it was pretty full but still had some space. They were two very high model count armies though. Would need to be 10FT for more points.
Konrad - I very much take your points on board, though I don't completely agree with all of them. Now that we have moved massively past competitive game 6th (though there are starting to be some 32 player tournaments around here going on this year) I fell some of the worst excesses of the game have passed. I do very much view the game with Rose tints, I loved 6th Ed. I played a lot of games, I was working at GW whilst at Uni for a big chunk of its life so was playing 3-4 games a week, all to a good standard, not just the kids. Also Rufus, myself and even Midaski were going to big tournaments both home and aboard. They were halcyon days!
On your points:
1) Terrain. WFB is not 40K its not about loads of terrain and the game is abstract, not TLOS. A hill lets you see over anything as its a hill and hills are bigger than both trees and houses. Just because the 'model' hill isn't. Woods do stop ranked units marching through them, but not skirmishers (or halflings ranked up :wink:) that's what happens IRL. Most of the field should be clear. I find the terrain rules okay, and even use the terrain tables at the end of the rule book to generate the table. In the game pictured we have a couple of hills, a building in middle, a building to some side and a couple of woods. Just enough to give you some tactics, but not enough to clog the game up. Ranged attacks aren;t that deadly generally so having the abilitly to see move thinks isn't a problem, like it would be in 40k or even AoS.
2) Magic. We have a no dispell scroll rule generally. I used the seal of destruction in a 6000pts game and nothing more. It lets the magic flow a bit more but it does reward having more wizards within out the boring 2 turns shut out of 2 level 1's with 4 scrolls. This does help.
3)Game balance is good, only having 4 characters up to 2999pts is a real limit and makes you take loads of troops as the special and rare are limited as well.
4) Guessing ranges IS 6th ed. all that 2D6 charge bullshit. It is a skill and a very important one. In the game my opponent thought his rat ogres were out of range of the flagellants to charge, but was wrong, and got 7.5" charged. That is tactics and the closer to the limit you take it the bigger the chance of getting it wrong. But your opponent also has to risk it, as if your 8.25" away your fucked, stranded in front of your intended victim. I will caveat this by saying i am very good at guessing ranges, just from playing so much. Random charges suck, skill should win games. Also we don't allow cannon sniping of lone characters as its not in, what we feel, is the spirit of the game. Please insert the Duke of Wellingtons quote here.
5) This is one area i do fully agree with you. I to like the step up rule to always let units attack back. It makes sense to me, and gives units some teeth. This is one I am working on bringing it to all our game. I didn't like the fight in 2 ranks rule from 8th. I felt that was part of the move to bigger units (selling more models focus) of 8th and was eventually what killed WFB :icon_cry: Step up gives the basic troops, something you can and have to take lots of in 6th a role and chance.
6) I also agree on this one. I took one in a 6000pts game as it seemed to be big enough, fluff wise, to have a steam tank, but wouldn't take one to a 2000pts game. It's pretty hard core. However, like everything, if you know how to deal with it is isn't that hard to kill. I faced one in a 2000pts game recently, with my DOW army (massively bottom tier army) and killed it turn two no problem. Characters or monsters with GW make a mess of it. I just blocked it with some light cav moving up to an inch from it. This negates its charge impact hits, then charged it with three basic ogres with GW. They knocked the shit out of it in a turn. Once its degraded its difficult to do much with due to the steam points mechanic.
Though to be fair, when it first came out in 2004, people would openly come up to me in tournaments and say if we'd got drawn against one another then they wouldn't play the game. So the opinion at the time was against it. It's for fun big games for me. Then there is plenty of stuff that can kill one tank.
Lastly i'd like to add that 6th ed plays really quickly and involves rolling not that many dice, in parts due to issues mentioned above. Particularly compared to current 40k which involves rolling a shit load of dice, then re rolling them for a multitude of reasons. Getting D3 re rolls for 2nd sign is a massive thing in 6th. Really useful.
Just my two pence worth.
Peter, lets play 6th Ed at Eurobash. 4000pts is a good point. Should be do able in 4 hrs easily.
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We've got a full day of gaming at the club this sunday, 10-5, so have moved my game to then from last Monday as my opponent has man flu apparently. Running scared more like! :icon_twisted:
Here is my TVI list i'm going to take. 2500pts. 4 character, 4 special and 2 rare and a load of troops to pick from if you cant remember.
EC - AWH, FPA, GW, Sh and holy relic
Capt - AWH, FPA, GW and enchanted shield
Capt - Pegasus, FPA, Sh and Lance
Wizard - Level 2 Rod of power
1st Battalion
30 swordsmen with FC - Griffon Banner
12 FC and 5 Archers
5 Pistolier
Cannon
2nd Battalion
28 Swordsmen with FC
11 FC and 5 Archers
5 Knights
Mortar
3rd Battalion
28 Swordsmen with FC
11 FC and 5 Archers
5 Knights
Mortar
5 Huntsmen
HBVG
6 KoWW IC with FC war banner
2499pts
Its a classic 3 battalion TVI list. EC in one 28 man unit and captain in other. 30man unit with griffon banner can take care of themselves. Each with a cavalry and artillery support unit and skirmisher screen. The 11 FC detachments are just due to points. The huntsmen are there to march block and HBVG and koWW are fun additions to make it up that extra 500pts.
I promise pictures and a write up!
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Fr1day, you're right, most of the flaws with 6th edition can be mitigated by playing with the right people with the right attitude. All things considered too, I concur with you that 6th edition is still the best edition there has been. Personally, I have happily established myself in T9A, I think it's even better than 6th edition, it manages imho to incorporate the good about 8th edition while curbing its excesses. I skipped 8th edition entirely myself, but as far as I can tell, what ruined it was (for the most part) not the core rules per se but rather the army books, the way GW cranked up pay-to-win through overpowered new releases. 8th edition core rules with 6th edition army books and 6th edition revised magic lores could have been a good edition, I think. That and the most common house rules, such as steadfast being negatable through flanking.
I think your defence of range-guessing is a bit inconsistent though. You call it tactics that you need to weigh the risk of estimating a range wrong. Is it not equally tactical to weigh the risk of rolling too little on the dice, against the rewards of success and the consequences of failure? It's risk management in both cases. The difference being is that with pre-measurement and random charge rolls, you know what the odds are, it's the same for every player in that same situation. With range-guessing and fixed charge distance, you can mitigate that risk by having a meta-gamistic skill at eyeballing ranges. I agree, skill should win games. Skill at making calculated decisions and knowing when taking a risk is worth it, which follows from being able to assess situations, see opportunities and predict multiple possible sequences of outcomes. And being able to effectively respond to unforeseen developments. I would rather have generalship be about that than being about eyeballing ranges, but your mileage may vary.
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I've always wieved the range-guessing of past editions as a game within a game. While it wasn't a very elegant rule and could lead to disagreements, I enjoyed it for the bit of immersion it provided (same goes for templates). That said, I also agree that pre-masuring everything is so much more convenient and easy to do. I'm torn on this!
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On the range guessing it’ll bias, I’m good at it, that is an advantage, I like it.
I hate the randomness of 2d6. Ive out manoeuvred someone, and then roll a poxy 3 and then lose the unit to a counter charge. Doesn’t match narrative sense. Having fixed ranges, to me, does make sense.
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Peter, lets play 6th Ed at Eurobash. 4000pts is a good point. Should be do able in 4 hrs easily.
Allrigth then 5000 pts it is :icon_wink:
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Yeah, I'm actually rather biased too. I'm much better at doing quick and dirty head math over probabilities than I'm at eyeballing distances :biggriin:
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I can do the maths but don’t like the randomness. A fixed distance is always the same, but a random distance, is well random.
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If it is dice rolled charges then you can go to the loo. If it is guessed distances, you can't, because the other player could do secret measuring. My bladder likes random, dice rolled charges!
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Personally I think the pendulum needs to swing closer to the middle. 2d6 + M is too random, 2 x M is too fixed. Call it 2 x M + D3 and call it a day.
8th (and 9th age) attack in 2 ranks and steadfast are not my cup of tea.
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8th (and 9th age) attack in 2 ranks and steadfast are not my cup of tea.
Drinking tea would mean MORE toilet breaks!
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Steadfast is a blunt instrument, but given a false dichotomy between the two, I'd still prefer steadfast over not steadfast. Deep blocks should have an inherent staying power to them that's best overcome by the depth of an enemy block. It's a bandaid fix to a combat resolution system that was originally designed and intended for a game where 16 models was a big unit, only heroes had more than one attack, and being elite just meant having a single point more WS or armour.
Supporting attacks would have been fine if units had had 6th edition stats, but that combined with the stat inflation of 7th edition pushed elite unit killing power a tad too high. That has now been steadily toned down and nerfed in 9th Age, and while some hate it, I very much appreciate it.
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In sixth Ed shifting a large amount unit was quite hard. You needed to overcome +4 combat resolution (3 ranks and outnumber) which is quite hard with only 5 or so attacks. Big units tended to need big units to take them down. 5 knights are going to do very little against a large unit of swordsmen or spearmen.
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In sixth Ed shifting a large amount unit was quite hard. You needed to overcome +4 combat resolution (3 ranks and outnumber) which is quite hard with only 5 or so attacks. Big units tended to need big units to take them down. 5 knights are going to do very little against a large unit of swordsmen or spearmen.
actually, 5 Knights in the flank of the big unit work like a charm.
whatever you kill does not return the favour, with 5 knight you negate ranks and only have a banner and outnumber against you while you have a flankbonus.
6th edition was not just a edition of combat resolution, it was the manouevring edition above all else. Use of detachments worked like a charm, cheap speedbumps, ideal to give direction to any attack on youre lines only waiting to be flanked in your own turn.
btw Knights have 10 attacks of which 5 from the horses, who traditionally do more damage then the riders.
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Big units are tough to shift from front. I played a game yesterday with the TVI list above against wood elves. During it my 30 swordsmen with EC on barded warhorse took the charge of a dragon and highborn and a treeman and eventually beat them off over four combat rounds. The EC tanked the dragon with a 1+ and a 4++ (which you take both rolls) and the treeman only has 5 attacks and a third of them miss. My guys picked off a couple of wounds here and there. This meant that the dragon and treemen kept losing by one or two points. They passed most break test on either a 8 or 9 due to the Ld10 general on dragon, but never won the fight.
This is exactly what 6th was created to do. Stop hero hammer with troops.
Pics up later.
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Here are some pic of yesterdays game. It was pretty close, though I had the initiative throughout I think. Could of gone either way right up to end.
2500pts Wood Elves
Highborn (general) on Dragon
Braithwitch
2 level 2 sorcerors
(it dawned on me mid game that he had 5 characters as the dragon counts as a hero)
2 x 6 glade riders
12 Dryads
11 dryads
3 x 3 Treekin
Treeman
Eagle
Quite a tough list i though. Massively smaller than mine models wise, but very hard hitting.
My army
(https://i.imgur.com/DsDJy5C.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/AsxjXOx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dHqvtXU.jpg)
Turn one and two (didnt take as many pics as I thought I had)
(https://i.imgur.com/VGAivtE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dGss4C8.jpg)
These pictures are turn two.
I went first with the +1 for deploying first. my army only has 9 drops.
I managed to take out a unit of glade guard with pegasus captain. the cannon killed the eagle and the pistoliers raced around a wood and shot one of the sorcerors (huzzah!)
(https://i.imgur.com/mKR9wMN.jpg)
One my left I used the huntsmen to block off the tree singing turn one, but sacrificed them charging the tree kind to allow me to charge my five knights into the flank to glade riders and KoWW into dryads. However, the huntsmen made their fear test, charged and got nearly destroyed, ran and brought the treekin closer to me (not the plan, 10 attacks hitting on 3's and killing on 2's should of destroyed them), the screening knights charged the gladeriders who fled as planned but the KoWW failed their fear test!
Wood elves generally advanced turn 1. Turn 2 they failed to rally the glade riders, didn't charge the drayds into an archer screen as it was to far to redirect onto my swordsmen, treekin charged the knights who fled, dragon crept around the flank. There was general moving woods around going off a little. My level 2 kept storing dice in the rod and managed to keep their magic under control all game.
Turn 3
(https://i.imgur.com/LDigzD7.jpg)
KoWW passed both terror and fear test and charged the treekin in flank. The rest of my army is movign across the board to get to Wood elves after killing all the units in front of them. KoBS screen charge the glade riders routing them from the table. KP screen unit rallied
(https://i.imgur.com/17cn8ir.jpg)
The KoWW only did two wounds and lost one in return so didn't break the treekin with lord so close by. They lapped round.
(https://i.imgur.com/17cn8ir.jpg)
Turns 4-6
The dragon and dryads charged and broke the swordsmen with captain after two rounds. Mainly as the dragon was in flank, negating ranks, and also as the dragon ate the unit champion on the first round, he then ate the captain in round two after some very bad save rolls by me.
The KoWW broke the unit of treekin in turn 4 then charged the next unit and fought them till round 6 when the pistoliers and KP charged in to finish it.
The pistolers managed to kill the other sorcerer after cornering her in a wood and rolling 6's to hit.
Turn 5 I have a triple fail of fear tests to charge the fleeing dryads, the other small unit of and the treekin.
Turn 6 the pegasus captain charged the treeman in rear and fluffed all his attacks, however, the EC held on, wounded the dragon and made it flee in my turn 6, the stubborn treeman held but broke in wood elf turn 6 sealing the deal.
My artillery, apart from killing the great eagle, did very little. When the cannon hit the treeman he made his ward save.
My wizard, on his CV at least, said he knew 2nd sign of Amul, but never managed to roll over 4 on 2 dice to cast it so i'm not sure. But he did a super job of dispelling so i'll let him off.
Next game next Monday. I'm going to use the army of middenheim from the 2004 annual for a laugh. List up at some point soon.
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Nice report! Good to see the TVI list doing well, good job :happy:
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In sixth Ed shifting a large amount unit was quite hard. You needed to overcome +4 combat resolution (3 ranks and outnumber) which is quite hard with only 5 or so attacks. Big units tended to need big units to take them down. 5 knights are going to do very little against a large unit of swordsmen or spearmen.
actually, 5 Knights in the flank of the big unit work like a charm.
whatever you kill does not return the favour, with 5 knight you negate ranks and only have a banner and outnumber against you while you have a flankbonus.
Of course knights in the flank of a large block were good at shifting them but,
A: It was quit difficult to get a knightly charge off against the flank of a large combat block of a well set up army
And
B: it is well recorded that attacking flanks of big combat blocked caused them to run.
My assumption that large combat blocks were difficult to shift in 6th edition remajns true. They tended to lack mobility and needed their flanks protected by something (detachments did this quite well) but 5 knights to the front would have little effect in on a large block.
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I personally found that large blocks were easy to break, but I guess it is down to circumstance and personal experience. I fought Chaos a lot for example, both mortals and daemons. Most of their units were (and are) so killy that they cancel our static CR. A unit of 5 Chaos knights with banner charging one of my blocks usually generated more CR than my static 5 for example. Of course 5 vanilla empire knights are not going to do the same, but a unit of 9 + character might, and those are the ones you send in for frontal assaults.
I know you shouldn't consider these things in a vacuum (there is shooting, positioning, fleeing charges, etc. etc.) but your blocks will be getting charged obviously. I tried to offset these odds by including an EC with the Rod of Command for example, or using Greatswords with a BSB, but those are significant point investments leading to fewer and or weaker support units. In my experience I was systematically outfought, detachments were largely contained or destroyed and my blocks were sometimes lucky and sat there for 2 or 3 combat rounds but just as often lasted only one.
Is used to have a string of battle reports illustrating this quite clearly but they were hosted on the warhammer forum (.co.uk) which has been taken down unfortunately.
But that is just my experience!
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Interesting!
@FR1DAY, I'd say you had quite a strong first turn! Even though a wizardling and a small unit of fast cavalry are not that important units, the WElf player still started with less options than his original list had - and had to respond to your first turn activities. Winning the deployment and carrying the initiative are very strong - especially in pre-8th ed., where charges are guessed but their distance predictable (no random dice rolls).
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About the longevity of big blocks (of Empire infantry) in the 6th, I think both stareso and commandant have a point. I remember how squishy the Empire infantry was when many in the front row died and there was little retaliation. I learned to fear those block-breaking units listed by stareso, especially small-medium Chaos Knights. The same holds true for some elite Elf units. They were kind of 6th ed medium deathstarts, at least when compared to Empire infantry blocks.
On the other hand, frontal charges by units mentioned by commandant were not so frightening, and against these kind of units, even the Empire Detachment game proved to have some effect. Getting a flank charge was always hard against a well-deployed opponent. I remember frequent success only against the O&G, who were shifted unplanned from their line because of their special rule, and because of the Stupidity of Trolls.
Indeed the balance of charge, striking first, retaliating and winning combat often seemed to hang by the thread in the 6th and 7th ed, unless the points invested in the fighting units were very different (or some or the other of the army books served combat-winning units on a golden plate). This often made the game delightfully maneuver-oriented. The 8th ed, by allowing measurement and removing Unit Strength and adding Steadfast, made these things much more predictable. That kind of game sort of required dice-rolling the charge distance.
Kings of War has possibly found the perfect balance with more fixed unit sizes, pre-measurement and the effect of flank charges. Although Hail Caesar and Shadow Storm are good candidates too (haven't played enough to reach a conclusion). It seems we're still living the Age of Priestly & Cavatore. :icon_razz:
-Z
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There were certainly things to be worried about but a unit of 9/10 knights with full command and a character would cost more than the combat block itself.
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To add to the discussion, I found 7th and especially 8th to be bringing the focus back to the heroes, like 8th, how good is your mage? I've played from 3rd to 8th, and hands down, 6th was the most fun. More focus on your army's build, how you moved and used said army. We have house ruled in step up, it works fine and more things die per turn. Fear autobreak only really occurs once in a while since usually a fear causing unit that has numbers isn't that powerful to win combat.
I got my old 6th armies out around February last year. I had Vampire Counts at roughly 8k, Tomb Kings at 3k Skaven at 1k, and Bretonnians at 1k, built the skaven and tomb kings up to 3200 point lists and started inviting friends over for beers and games. Now we have roughly 10 players, 31 armies. I am well on my way to my goal of having a good 4-5k point army of each. We play roughly twice a week.
Also have been trying to amalgamate all the rules for the characters that were on the website, various white dwarf magazines, etc. onto one website so they are easier to find.
Still waiting on my Wood Elves to arrive, but here's what I have so far.
Skaven
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7864/45786066535_fe10e89c01_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2cKXyqg)
Ogre Kingdoms
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7896/46648640052_d669e759e3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2e5btts)
Chaos (Tzeentch, other people have the other factions, Khorne decided to slip in there with a couple models so far) Currently painting
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4865/46648640442_e80c72efc6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2e5btAb)
Tomb Kings
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4833/46701352521_0319017e69_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2e9QD48)
Vampire Counts
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7870/32826522468_a59ce5bf44_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/S1Lvtj)
Empire, painted as Sylvannian for the option to use as levies for my Vampire Counts Von Carstien Appendix list,
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7813/31760068917_439f9cac90_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QowDZ8)
Bretonnians
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7840/46648648012_0bef5e5771_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2e5bvQG)
High Elves, Currently in paint process like the Chaos
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4804/45786075285_a12cb0f21c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2cKXB28)
Dwarfs, with an almost up to points Slayer Storm of Chaos army
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7885/31760074567_a07a838ae6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QowFEx)
Lizardmen, currently building a Lustria army option as well
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7925/39736449803_c8c6620bb0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23xnG8v)
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There's a good looking collection, congrats! :::cheers:::
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There's a good looking collection, congrats! :::cheers:::
Thank you sir. This is one of the games we had over the holidays, I suck at battle reports, apparently beer and memory don't work well together lol.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1967/43654784290_74efa26700_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29vCbsE)