Topic: We're in a two-front war! Schlieffen-type plan suggested

[Konrad von Richtmark]

The campaign map doesn't look too assuring, as we've obviously been attacked by an unholy Ulrican alliance, there being virtually no friction along the Talabecland-Middenland border.

Fighting a grinding war of attrition will lead us nowhere, we'll have to make something decisive. What I suggest is the following:

Like the Schlieffen plan, we strike a heavy blow against one enemy, in order to convince them we better not be messed with, making attacking us a waste of force which could be better spent elsewhere.

This can be achieved by fighting at, say, Udo's Fall, continuing fighting there until we have a crap-load of points there, leading with a margin of, say 10.000 to 15.000 points. However, on the same abstaning from pushing in towards Talabecland. This will make the Talabeclanders look to Kaltenbach for an easier picking. Once this has been achieved, but not before it, can we start worrying about the Middenlanders frolicking inside our borders.

Who is with me?

[Demonslayer]

I'm sorry, but I don't think that will work. We already gave the Talabeclanders an enormous amount of opposition, and they're still not attacking Kaltenbach. Right now their thought is: "hey, Middenlanders aren't attacking us, let's not provoke them". Vice versa with the Middenlanders. They won't attack each other, simply because they know doing so will cause the other faction to redirect the forces they are now spending on us towards them, giving us more room to breathe, and pretty much give away their advantage of not being attacked.
Besides, if we only focus on defending two positions, then we are separating our forces, while the other factions are throwing everything they've got at us. If we don't force them to defend their own position, and we only defend our own position, we'll be outnumbered two-to-one on both fronts...

[TheBuilder]

It seems as if some fighting has broken out between talabecland and middenland.  Gotta say im quite glad to see it.  Something to watch as the balance on the new front will partially dictate our moves for the next round.

[Demonslayer]

Just had a visit from a warhammer player, and guess what? My usual opponent told him about the campaign, and now he has joined up for Middenland. Having no internet at his home, he posted the battles they played today at my place.
The good thing about this is that he's as dead set against Talabecland as I am, and he posted four full-fluff massacres in Brustenbruck! That should be the end of the Talabecland-Middenland stalemate! Our problems might be solved after all...
I'll have to thank my usual opponent for talking him in to this... tried to a while ago, but he didn't care for the campaign then... guess I'm not very persuasive .
And of course it also means I don't have to lend my models every single game, plus I get to play more battles (as if that was possible   ).

[General Helstrom]

I don't mean to be paranoid, but I am a bit suspicious about your buddy winning four full-fluff massacres in one day? I consider myself a pretty experienced player, and so is my regular opponent, but fitting four battles into a single day is quite an effort, not to mention getting a Massacre in all of them.

[Demonslayer]

As would I, and "paranoid" is hardly fitting. But I know these two guys. The Talabecland one has been playing warhammer for about half a year now, I've basically thought him everything since just before the start of the campaign. The Middenland one has been playing warhammer since years before me, and can certainly beat the Talabecland one more convincingly than I did (he often beats me very convincingly anyway, guess he can also beat someone who has much less experience with warhammer than me...).
I mean come on. If I can play five battles in one day, they can play four, right?
Of course I wasn't there when they played, but I know both of them, and if they say they played four battles and the far more experienced won them all, then I'll take their word for it   .
I hope I've taken away your concerns a bit... though of course, if you still have your doubts, you should discuss it with them...

At any rate, don't kill the messenger!  

[Konrad von Richtmark]

If we don't force them to defend their own position, and we only defend our own position, we'll be outnumbered two-to-one on both fronts...

Yes, I know, not a plan that's guaranteed to work. However, do we have any choice? We're outnumbered 2 to 1, and regardless how we allocate our battles, there is no way we'll prevail. If we force them to defend their own position, we'll have less to defend ourselves with. Besides, attacking requires us to overcome that 5.000 they have to begin with at any battle site, meaning a penalty of so much to us before they have to allocate a single point to their defence.

That is, the only way to prevail is to enforce a break of this Middenland-Talabecland alliance. Sure, my idea isn't perfect, but what do you suggest?

[TheBuilder]

Luckily the outcome of the opening offensive has given us time to regroup at udos fall.  By the end of the second we should have pushed middenland out of the uneasy watchman as well.  

As i stated before it seems that some fighting may be breaking out between middenland and talabecland.  Given that i think that resuming our offensive at rhyas sisters could be the best course of action.  there are three reasons why i support this over trying to take fort grigory.

1)Sort of a rhetorical reason but i believe that to switch our focus might give us the sour taste of defeat.
2)in the first offensive we allowed the weaker middenland to threaten the uneasy watchman.  To attack middenland in the third phase might allow the stronger talabecland to overrun udos fall.
3)If we actively attack rhyas sisters with full force the talabeclanders migh be reluctant to try to waste battles on our now well fortified udos fall.  This means that even more focus can go to the attack.  Finally if we hold the line at the uneasy watchman and abstain from forays into fort grigory AND if we divert forces from bechafen where we have an advantage we will have the strength to totally overrun rhyas sisters in the third phase.

[Demonslayer]

I agree with The Builder on continuing our current plan of action. Adding to his arguments:

1) We now have a one post per day limit, and the only party that was gaining from the post-all-you-want-policy was Talabecland, with helblaster posting about four battles per day (sure I posted ten in total, but it was not nearly as much as helblaster did). With the one-post-per-day-limit we might be better able to overrun their position, while holding on to ours.
2) Aside from Talabecland having less posts to spend, they also have to focus on Middenland's attacks now. We can truly use our superior numbers as an advantage now, unlike in the first round.

Last time the plan failed because Talabecland had helblaster's 4 posts a day, and because they had only us to worry about. I believe that, now that this has changed, and if we start defending the Uneasy Watchmen, we'll have a better chance of beating Talabecland.
However as a backup, I'd like to also capture Bechafen in round three. We're the only real contestors for it right now, and having it would give us a more centralized position to attack from (plus giving our opponents something to worry about when the again try to take Udo's Fall or the Uneasy Watchmen).

[General Helstrom]

Demonslayer: I've notified your friend Champion_of_ulric in the Middenland forum that I'm going to disqualify his reports. There's too much "undue influence" there for my tastes, and this has been discussed with the staff as well. The faction forums are separated for a reason and it is in the interest of the campaign that participants also maintain this division in the real world. That's not to say you guys can't be friends or some such sillyness, but it's not really cricket to go and influence each other about where to post battle results.

CoU will be allowed to re-post his battles in accordance with Middenland strategy, or to join a different faction if he feels it would be too difficult to pick his loyalty.

No hard feelings, I'm sure you understand

[TheBuilder]

Thinking more about sticking to our original plans i realized that they can contain both a contingency and a way for Konrad Von Richtmarks proposed plans to be carried out.  It lies in the nature of 'contested' grounds.

As we saw on our talabecland front it is possible for an attack route by the enemy to be entirely sealed off for a phase.  Thus in our third round assault on talabecland to fall short might open a new door.  If we contest rhyas sisters and maintain full control of udos fall then talabecland will not be able to attack us (at udos fall) in the fourth round.  It would essentially give us an entire round where we can put every single army against middenland.  Thus to fall short in our push into talabecland can be a success if we defend our current spots.  

Thus our renewed rhyas sisters offensive come with a built in plan B and can break the two front war for a time (as per Konrads plan).  

However to benefit from either of these possibilities will require discipline.  We must have the proper balance of offense and defense on the talabecland front and we must only defend the uneasy watchman on the middenland front.  Here is the only part where i disagree with Demonslayer.  To attempt a final push into bechafen not only strips us of the armies we may need to make our plan work, but to take it this early might ensure that talabecland and middenland will be united against us.  Perhaps leaving only a general or two to post in bechafen to maintain our position  will be the most prudent choice.

[towishimp]

I think TheBuilder has it about right.  I hadn't quite realized how the "contested location" thing would work, but now that I do, what he's saying makes a lot of sense.  

The only part I disagree with is that I think taking Bechafen still might be a good idea.  The campaign organizers made it clear that Bechafen was the important location in the campaign, and it seems like we have a chance to take it relatively easily in the next few turns (thanks to our nice first round there).  Passing on that chance seems like a bad idea to me.  

So either way, I volunteer to keep fighting in Bechafen (once we open the route into it again, that is).

[wissenlander]

I just think it's amazing how the first round worked out in all honesty.  Immediately afterwards it looked like we got creamed, but then the second phase kicked in and it turned out that we did alright, and it actually set us up rather nicely.

[Fred]

I'm right behind Builder. The attack/defence strategy is a good one, to cut off Talabecland while we deal with the bigger threat, Middenland. Although they were the weaker to begin with, with the limit on number of battles they will become the stronger, as Helblaster cannot post 4 battles a day. So lets be disciplined and impliment our plan to perfection.

[TheBuilder]

Yep its pretty easy to salivate over the idea of waltzing into bechafen.  However i stand by the fact that it could jeopardize our other plans, both the taking of rhyas sisters and the splitting of the unholy alliance.  

It would be nice to hear the thoughts of others on the matter regarding bechafen.  Either way there will be some posting there so as far as im concerned towishimp will be the first regardless.

I also want to perhaps give a more concise notion of my other plan.
We will attack rhyas sisters with 3 differences from last time
1.a fortified udos fall
2.armies stripped from bechafen
3.armies stripped from fort grigory (although in this case mostly to defend the uneasy watchman)

If we succeed we can then try full on to take bechafen or we can then switch to taking fort grigory.  If we contest rhyas sisters but do not take it then the obvious move would be to crush fort grigory.

[towishimp]

It would be nice to hear the thoughts of others on the matter regarding bechafen.  Either way there will be some posting there so as far as im concerned towishimp will be the first regardless.

Ditto.  I'm in complete agreement with TheBuilder's plan, but I'd like to hear what others think about Bechafen.  As I've said before, I play a lot of skirmish, so I'd like to use those results and the only place I can use them is Bechafen.  If the rest of you think taking Bechafen is too risky a move, I'll not post the results.  Also, I do play some standard battles once or twice a week, and I'd like to see where you all think I should post them in the upcoming round.

[wissenlander]

I'd say go ahead and post your skirmish results at Bechafen.  I don't think we should totally give up on it at the moment (not saying we are), but we should keep some pressure on there.  If towishimp is the only one posting there then we can move other forces around.  That way we could fulfill a little of both...and if by some chance we do take it, then it wasn't at great expense.  Also at the same time, Middenland/Talebecland won't be able to just move in unopposed.

[Demonslayer]

Very well then, we continue the plan set in round one, with changes as described by the Builder.
About Bechafen: I've read the rules for round 2, and as I understood it, skirmish games don't count towards the 1 post per day limit (I'll read it later to verify). So there's no reason why we shouldn't try to take Bechafen with the skirmish scenarios. As long as it doesn't interfere with the more pressing matters (Udo's Fall, Rhya's Sisters and the Uneasy Watchmen), everybody can play as many skirmishes as they wish .

And about the whole me and champion_of_ulric thing: I do NOT read anything from the Middenland forum, and I do NOT allow CoU to read anything from the Stirland forum. Doing so would be cheating. And I will NOT degrade myself to anything like that for nothing. Don't get me wrong, the campaign is lots of fun, I think the amount of battles I play for it, the fact that I volunteered for a leading position, and the fact that I spend almost every evening calculating battle results proves how much I like the campaign. But it's a GAME. And I'm 21 years old, for crying out loud! You really think I'm going to start cheating to win a game with which I can win or lose nothing? I have more self respect than that.
I fully understand you guys have to be strict, and that it is a rather suspicious situation. I can understand you guys wanting to exclude CoU's reports because it's just too suspicious. But I don't like being accused of cheating.
Just to clear my reputation here. I don't want anybody to think I'm cheating. I loathe cheating. I've been honest about CoU and me from the start, would I have been if I were cheating?
Enough said about the matter. I wanted to clear my name, and if anybody has any more doubts, then so be it. Let's just drop the topic and continue with what this thread is about, namely finding a way to smash the skulls of those damned T-landers and M-landers .

[TheBuilder]

Dont worry i believe you intentions were good...As for our plans

So towishimp will be remaining at bechafen (both for skirmishes and regular battles).  Others can post skirmishes there but NO BATTLES.  The rest who had been assigned to bechafen should try to split themselves between the middenland and talabecland fronts.
REMEMBER: discipline is key for this plan so try and abstain from attacking fort grigory.  We must hold the line against middenland.

Well try and put some more thought into the specific breakdowns especially between offense and defense against talabecland.  We can play it day by day but for now expect 2/3 to 3/4 offense.

[General Helstrom]

No-one's said the "c-word" so relax a little

It's just better to avoid even the suggestion of it altogether - CoU reported four battles without speaking to his faction, and you said yourself he was brought in and inspired by your fiend, so I guess he just didn't think his reports through very well. He's been given the option to re-think and that's all.

Unlike GW-run campagns, we don't have hundreds of participants and dozens of locations to gloss over the odd rogue. Every report counts and a faction can get in serious trouble if even one member doesn't follow strategy. That's why we made such a big deal out of it The option to switch factions was merely a "just in case", and it was left up to CoU wether or not to use it.

Now get on with it

[TheBuilder]

PLANNING AHEAD

It is good to see that we will recieve a bonus at hohleburg which might help us obtain a victory in this round.  In having to defend both the uneasy watchman and hohleburg it might have been near impossible for us to really threaten rhyas sisters.  

Our biggest problem is the fact that we are bearing the entire brunt of both talabecland and middenlands attacks.  We can continue to hope that they will start fighting each other but that might only happen once the two of them descend on bechafen.  If this offensive does indeed fail we should possibly think about simply defending our lands until talabecland and middenland do begin to attack talabecland.  As long as we hold udos fall we can still skirmish there making their obectives almost impossible to obtain.  Once they have begun to fight each other we can begin to think about how to climb back on top.

I am still fully commited to our current plan to take rhyas sisters and will be posting a battle there soon but the obvious plan b of attacking fort grigory no longer applies.  Therefore we must think of alternate future strategies.

[wissenlander]

So, for now, we're going to defend Hohleburg?  When, and do we at all, plan to retake Udo's Fall?  Are we going to wait and see how it pans out first? And let me ask this question...for us to gain control of Bechafen, our riot points have to equal or surpass the total number of riots?  If that's the case, then I'd say we should maybe try and get Bechafen (not diverting any troops though, we seem to be doing a good job so far there).  If we can get Bechafen in total control then we'd have driven a wedge right in  between the two and it would seem that T-land and M-land would want to maybe get rid of that 'bulge' in the middle, so to speak.  If that was the case, it would slacken the strain on our flanks which might give us an opening.  

I don't know whether any of that made sense, because in all honesty, I'm still trying to figure out how all this point stuff works.

[TheBuilder]

We are holding both hohleburg and udos fall.  There is a post under 'final orders' by demonslayer that outlines out plans.  For us to control bechafen we must have more point than everyone (including riots).

You do bring up an interesting idea though.  Instead of perhaps waiting for the two to descend on bechafen we instead force the issue.  Its a bit more of a high risk plan.  If udos falls were to become contested we would lose our ability to attack bechafen.  Although it would not guarantee the other two begin to fight each other it would focus the battle somewhere away from our main lines giving us a chance to rebuild.

Glad to have your input wissenlander.

About the points....if another army ends a phase with more points than you in one of your locations it becomes contested.  If they can maintain the advantage through the next phase they take the location.

[Demonslayer]

Taking Bechafen using skirmishes only is already part of our great sceme...

@Wissenlander: Good idea! I just hope M-land and T-lan will follow...

[wissenlander]

@Wissenlander: Good idea! I just hope M-land and T-lan will follow...

Sometimes all that you can do is hope and pray.   And not only that, but with any sort of luck, if we can take Bechafen, it'll cause a sore spot with T-land and M-land.  Bechafen seems to be the crown jewel of the campaign, so if we can ruffle their feathers enough by claiming it, then it may work.  It is a gamble for sure, but I think it's worth a shot.  

And, with any luck I'll be able to play a game or two this weekend!

EDIT*-I was just looking around, and Midaski brought up a good point, if we lose control of Udo's Fall then we won't be able to post anymore at Bechafen.  If that happens, then any hopes of driving a wedge in between the two will be over or at least delayed greatly.