Topic: Inf Heavy 2k

[Algorath]

Merry Christmas everyone. 

Looking at starting 2k points Empire, coming in from dwarves. (aside: no dwarf emotes?  Seriously?)

2000 Pts - Empire Roster

General of the Empire (1#, 114 pts) Attached to Spearmen
   1 General of the Empire, 114 pts (General; Hold the Line; Hand Weapon; Full Plate Armour)
      1 Warrior Bane
      1 Enchanted Shield

Arch Lector (1#, 163 pts) Attached to Spearmen
   1 Arch Lector, 163 pts (Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Prayers)
      1 Sword of Striking
      1 Van Horstman's Speculum

Captain of the Empire (1#, 153 pts) Attached to Spearmen
   1 Captain of the Empire, 153 pts (Hold the Line; Battle Standard Bearer; Hand Weapon; Full Plate Armour; Shield)
      1 Griffon Banner

Warrior Priest (1#, 105 pts)  Attached to Knights
   1 Warrior Priest, 105 pts (Barding; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Prayers)
      1 Warhorse
      1 Sword of Battle

Battle Wizard (1#, 125 pts)  Attached to Spearmen
   1 Battle Wizard, 125 pts (Level 2 Wizard; Hand Weapon)
      1 Dispel Scroll

Battle Wizard (1#, 65 pts)  Attached to Left Archers???
   1 Battle Wizard, 65 pts (Level 1 Wizard; Hand Weapon)

State Troops (126#, 700 pts)
   76 Spearmen, 700 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour)
      25 [Det] Halberdiers (Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
      25 [Det] Halberdiers (Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)

Militia Troops (10#, 70 pts)
   10 Archers, 70 pts (Hand Weapon; Bow; Skirmishers; Volley Fire)

Militia Troops (10#, 70 pts)
   10 Archers, 70 pts (Hand Weapon; Bow; Skirmishers; Volley Fire)

Militia Troops (10#, 70 pts)
   10 Archers, 70 pts (Hand Weapon; Bow; Skirmishers; Volley Fire)

Knightly Orders (9#, 245 pts)
   9 Inner Circle Knights, 245 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armour)
      9 Warhorse

War Engines (4#, 120 pts)
   1 Helblaster Volley Gun, 120 pts
      3 Crew (Hand Weapon)

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 277 (0 - 500)
Points of Heroes: 448 (0 - 500)
Points of Core: 1155 (500 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 0 (0 - 1000)
Points of Rare: 120 (0 - 500)

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Frictionless Movement Map: (i.e. ideal movement with no opposition)


The big issues I have are characters, monsters, and ethereal - essentially the issues for Empire everywhere.  I feel they're mitigated by the wizards and IC knights, that Priest isn't for show after all...

The real focus of the army, if not obvious in the pic below, is the knights: everything else is effectively chaff.

With the huge chunk of spearmen, I should be able to safely ignore most war machine fire (I need to lose 40 bodies before I begin to feel it, and it's going to take a lot of fire to make that happen methinks, 80 bodies and all.)  And with the press of bodies I think most opponents will focus more on them then the reach-around, hence why I'm not using anything scary like a STank or D Knights.

Using the echelon should deny the majority of juicy flanks.  Obviously flying's going to be a problem but I figure I've got some archers to coc--arge block once or twice.

I'm debating the Replacing the gun for Outriders, I'd be getting a decently reliable 50% of the shots, 2 extra wounds and 4" of movement at the cost of 4 toughness.

Thoughts??

[CarolineWellwater]

(( Algorath,

"Armour"  *chuckles*  Always find that "ou" funny.

Also, I think this should be in the "Parade Ground".

Anyway, okay, some quick thoughts:

General thoughts:

1) With our characters being average, magic weapons are usually not recommended in order to save points.  We usually deal with Ethereal-types by beating them with CR.  As such, you could probably save some points across the board and drop your magic weapons.

2) A savvy player will see your smallish sized detachments, and attempt to charge them over your main block.  Why?  In order to get a wipe-out pursuit charge into the flank of your block of Spearmen, or to just cause a Panic test with your Spearmen.  For the most part, detachments right now are more risk than gain.  Also, they have to deploy at the same time as your Spearmen, giving your opponent the ability to counter-deploy to them.  You might be better served by just grouping both detachment blocks into one, separate large company of Halberds.

3) What magic were you thinking of running.  Right now you have a lot of low wizards.  I play with low wizards a lot.  Your spells will be more difficult to get off, as most players have a level 4 (or better) wizard at their disposal.  On the plus side, you can try to one-die cast your prayers.  Anyway, I would suggest Lores that have cheaper spells in general (such as Fire), or Lores with multi-purpose signature spells (such as Beasts or Heavens).

4) Depending on what opponents you face regularly, the shields on your Spearmen may very well be wasted.  A 5+ Armor Save is pretty easy to smash through.  Plus, since they have Spears, you don't even get the Hand-Weapon-And-Shield 6+ Parry Save.  If your opponents all have either high-strength, or armor pen, or armor ignore, the shields aren't doing you any good.  You might be better served by spending the points on more Spearmen.  In fact, dropping the shields would get you some 15 more Spearmen… or a few Knights… or a command team for the unit of Halberds.

More specific thoughts:

1-A) What role is your General / Elector Count?  Right now his "Hold the Line" ability is being duplicated by the BSB.  And his LD 9 is being duplicated by the Arch Lector.  My suggestion is, since you want your knights to be your hammer unit, you downgrade the Elector Count to another Captain you can put in your Knights, or upgrade him to a Grand Master (who would also be with your knights).  The Grand Master would make your knights a more powerful unit, as well as make them Immune to Psychology.

1-B) Also, Warrior Bane is a waste of 5 points.  At Strength 4, any wounds he causes will either be saved against; or fail to wound, or be against a model that only has one-attack anyway.  5 points can get you a Pistol which is so much more effective, or just short of a double-handed weapon.

2-A) You might want to switch the positions of your Arch Lector and Mounted Warrior Priest.  Again, if your knights are to be your killing unit, the Arch Lector adds a bit more umph than a regular priest.  I would also suggest a ward save item on your Arch Lector.

2-B)I think the Sword of Striking is wasted points on the Arch Lector.  He already has Hatred for re-rolls.  Also, I think you mean "Hammer of Striking"… no Sigmarite holy-man every touches a blade.  And, at some point, someone is going to notice that joke.

3) The Griffon Banner on the BSB is a lot of wasted points.  Doubling your CR, but sacrificing your ability to pursue is not worth it, in my opinion.  If you don't want to pursue, just roll an LD test (which you can re-roll if you fail, as the BSB lets you re-roll all LD tests.)  With the size of your Spearmen, the Razor Standard or Standard of Discipline would be much better selections.  Especially if you move your Arch Lector and General from your Spearmen into your knights.

4-A) For your mounted Warrior Priest, I'd suggest the double-handed hammer as well.  Our Initiative is on the mediocre side, and giving that up to hit at strength 6 is an Impressive improvement.  Same goes for the Arch Lector.  Give him a double-handed hammer as well.  They can both still have the shield, and use it, while they get into hand-to-hand.

4-B) Also, Sword of Battle is a mixed bag.  While it does give the Warrior Priest +50% to his attacks (going from 2 to 3)… it doesn't make the attacks any more effective.  In order to save some points, I'd suggest the double-handed mace over the Sword of Battle.  Or, if you really want to give him a magic weapon, I've found the Sword of Might to be decently effective and cheap.

5-A) Your two wizards, as stated above, are going to struggle at casting spells… unless you try to six-dice all of them. +0 (from the Priests), +1, or +2 to cast vs +4 to dispel is a huge difference.  Another way to look at it is that at +4 to dispel, your opponent is basically getting to add one free die to his dispel rolls. 

5-B) I'd suggest putting both of your wizards in different archer units.  Skirmishing is a huge protection, and they should still be able to generally keep up with your army to cast their spells.

6-A) For your knights, I'd suggest either the Standard of Swiftness (if you're low on points), or the Steel Standard.  Both will give you movement of 8", which means a 16" March Move.  Both also give you 8" +3k2" charge, flee, and pursuit move.  That extra 1" of movement will let them better make their weighted flank turn you're describing, as well as get into charge distance sooner.  If you have the points, the Steel Standard also helps keep you from getting completely flubbed charge, pursuit, and charging-to-future-victory (also known as flee) moves.

6-B) I would also suggest a Champion with your knights.  At 10 points, he adds another attack without increasing your frontage.  Since you said you want your knights to do your "HULK SMASH", then more attacks is always good.  Now, I know I said that the Arch Lector shouldn't get the Sword of Battle.  That's also because the Sword of Battle costs 2x as much as the Champion upgrade.  Also, your champion can take challenges against stuff that would kill your more important characters.

7) Spearmen will struggle to land a wound.  Strength 3 can wound everything, but it also allows for full armor saves.  This is one of the reasons for the Razor Standard.  Now, while you still might struggle to cause a wound, the Armor Penetration makes your opponent more likely to suffer the wound.

8) Over the Volley Gun, I'd suggest the old Cannon.  Volley Guns are solid; however, without the Engineer, they do lose a lot of their effectiveness.  And cannons are always nice as they can soften and kill monstrous things that the rest of your army would struggle with.

Well… okay, I guess that wasn't very quick.  So, just some thoughts. ))

[Jomppexx]

Okay, I'll go over this. I am by no means a pro or anything, but these are my opinions.

Lord section :
General of the Empire is a frowned upon lord. He bring nothing we already don't have. We get hold the line from captains for less points. He also is a terrible fighter compared to proper fighters. Even most heroes will tear him apart in combat (Orcs, Chaos/Daemons, Ogres, Lizardmen, all elves, I think even beastmen). If you want a cheap LD9 lord on foot, bring an Arch Lector. He buffs your units, channels dice and gives you access to prayers.
If you want a mounted lord or a fighter, bring a Grandmaster. Grandmasters are our best fighter characters and even they come with more rules than Generals.

Bring one lord to act as a General. As I said, our characters are terrible at fighting. Choose a lord (mostly Grandmaster or Arch lector) and equip him proper. Grandmasters become beasts with Runefangs. Always bring a level 4 wizard, they are really cheap compared to some races and do a lot.

Always gear your BSB to survive. You usually don't want magic standards on your BSB as then enemies will just kill him. In some rare cases you can take something like Standard of Discipline on him, if nobody else can have it. That said, don't take the Griffon Banner. Sure it's fluffy and cool, but compared to proper standards (Banner of the World Dragon) that cost less points and are better, the Griffon Banner is no good, 60 points for +3 combat res? No thanks.

Don't bother with weapons on priests. Prioritize your Captains and your lord level characters. Aim for cheap items such as Sword of Striking or Sword of Might. Some lords should be geared with more expensive weapons. (Namely Grandmaster)

You won't need the level 1 wizard, leave him out.

You always want Halberdiers. Always. Don't even think about swordsmen or spearmen, halberdiers are the way to go. Very cheap S4 attacks. I have the Dwarf book and call tell, halberds are a dream come true. Cut down on the spearmen and bring knights. Knights are a thing dwarves don't have and I can tell you, if you take Inner Circle Knights, you won't be let down. Units of 10-16 are pretty good.

I love the units of 10 archers, they are the best choice for deployment drops.

Helblaster is just like the Dwarven Organ Gun. Expect it shoots more and has less range. Always bring an Engineer with a Helblaster, as you get to reroll an artillery die (any of the 3 you roll) and you get BS4. Cannons are important, you should know this from dwarves. 120 points for a crazy threat on any war machines, monsters, characters. Cannons don't need Engineers.

[Algorath]

Firstly, I appreciate the exhaustive replies.

2000 Pts - Empire Roster

Arch Lector (1#, 177 pts)
   1 Arch Lector, 177 pts (General; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Barding; Always Strikes Last)
      1 Van Horstman's Speculum
      1 Warhorse

Wizard Lord (1#, 165 pts)
   1 Battle Wizard Lord, 165 pts (Level 3 Wizard; Hand Weapon)
      1 The Lore of Beasts

Captain of the Empire (1#, 93 pts)
   1Captain of the Empire, 93 pts (Hold the Line; Battle Standard Bearer; Hand Weapon; Full Plate Armour; Shield)

Captain of the Empire (1#, 91 pts)
   1 Captain of the Empire, 91 pts (Hold the Line; Hand Weapon; Lance; Full Plate Armour; Shield; Barding)
      1 Warhorse

Warrior Priest (1#, 69 pts)
   1 Warrior Priest, 69 pts (Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Prayers)

Battle Wizard (1#, 65 pts)
   1 Battle Wizard, 65 pts (Level 1 Wizard; Hand Weapon)
      1 The Lore of Fire

State Troops (127#, 705 pts)
   77 Spearmen, 705 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Spear; Light Armour)
      25 [Det] Halberdiers (Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)
      25 [Det] Halberdiers (Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour)

Militia Troops (10#, 70 pts)
   10 Archers, 70 pts (Hand Weapon; Bow; Skirmishers; Volley Fire)

Militia Troops (10#, 70 pts)
   10 Archers, 70 pts (Hand Weapon; Bow; Skirmishers; Volley Fire)

Militia Troops (10#, 70 pts)
   10 Archers, 70 pts (Hand Weapon; Bow; Skirmishers; Volley Fire)

Knightly Orders (11#, 305 pts)
   10 Inner Circle Knights, 305 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armour)
      1 Inner Circle Preceptor (Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield; Full Plate Armour)
      11 Warhorse

Outriders (5#, 120 pts)
   5 Outriders, 120 pts (Musician Mus; Barding; Hand Weapon; Repeater Handgun; Light Armour)
      5 Warhorse



Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 342 (0 - 500)
Points of Heroes: 318 (0 - 500)
Points of Core: 1220 (500 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 120 (0 - 1000)
Points of Rare: 0 (0 - 500)

Total Roster Cost: 2000

I've made some adjustments, having put some thought into it.

I agree with the General, he was originally in there because I ran out of room in heroes, but dropping the banner and making the Arch Lector a cowboy, as you've all suggested, freed enough points.  Although I have reservations 'bout my general in the hammer, I'm willing to give it a whirl.

Regarding magic, I've invested in a lvl 3, and kept the 1.  Not that I've got any experience with magic, but I'm thinking lore of beasts and fire, respectively; the idea is make them waste dispel dice on the beasts, then pray 'n pump dice into the fireball.  (Not that I think that's a viable strat per see, but after the first time I hope to force the opponent to be conservative with dispel and make mistakes as I shake up casting order.  Or roll a 1 & a 6 for power dice, and 2's for miscasts...   )

Observations would be delightful.

Regarding the attachments, I agree they're dangerous, but I'm attempting to use them force my opponent's maneuvers.  No one wants a face full of angry anvil, nor their ears full of halberds, so they'll go after the halberds.  I hope to secure the knights' flank, and rely on hesitation over bullet lunch or steel tea cakes on the other. 

Naturally, flyers will probably still skull-molest me, but I'm hoping to chump block with archer screens.

 I like the HBVG, but I'm not willing to commit the extra necessities to make it... well, reliable isn't the right term, but you understand.  I can appreciate war machines, coming from dwarves, so I'll keep mulling over the cannon. 

Thanks again for the tips and attention.

[CarolineWellwater]

(( Hey Algoroth,

Just some more thoughts.  I wasn't feeling particularly creative today, so no story this time.  Anyway, here goes.

1) Usually van Horstmann's Speculum goes onto heroes that are weak-ish, such as Engineers.  Or, if you want to be semi-sneaky, the Witch Hunter.  Going from the Witch Hunter's moderate stats to a Vampire's stat-line is kinda amusing.  Especially as he still has Tools of Judgment.

Anyway, I think you can save some points, and swap out the van Horstmann's Speculum.  For a few points less, you can even swap out the van Horstmann's Speculum for a Crown of Command.

Since you're worried about your Arch Lector being where the fight is, you can give him a ward save.  van Horstmann's Speculum is almost the same price as the 4+ Ward Save talisman.

Or, you can also empower your wizards with the points you save.  Speaking of which, that sounds like a transition.

2) A Level 3 Wizard Lord seems funny to me.  For all the time I've played, I've seen Level 1… Level 2… and Level 4… but no Level 3.  If you swap out the van Horstmann's Speculum, you can upgrade your Wizard to Level 4.  (Or you could upgrade your Level 1 Wizard to Level 2).  Given that Beasts has a pretty nice list of spells, getting that fourth spell opens up more options.  Also, +4 to cast/dispel keeps you on pace with most opposing armies.  I haven't seen too many armies without a Level 4 wizard.

Since you said you're fairly new with magic, a couple of things to think about:

2-A) Beasts is generally a good lore and a cheap lore; it only really has one weak spell… but the fact that you can cast that spell on one d6 is kinda nice. Beasts augments are nice, as you can bubble them.  Keep in mind that the Lore Attribute lets you cast your spells on your cavalry squads easier.  If you have the time, check out Hoodling Hole and their review of the Beasts Lore.

Overall, I'd suggest trying to force-cast Beasts spells, instead of your idea of force-casting Fireball.  What I mean is, nobody likes seeing a Strength 10 Amber Spear coming their way, or an entire block of Spearmen that are going to be Wildformed.  If you toss 4d6 at any Beast spell, you stand a pretty good chance of being able to cast them (4d6 + 4 approximates to a roll of 18).

If you want to try to Irresistible Force a spell, use 6d6.  That offers a decent chance to get double 6s.  Remember, while you do Miscast on boxcars… the Miscast takes effect AFTER the spell is cast.

3) For your BSB, he can have a meta-effect on our army, if you give him a magic banner.  For example, if you give him the Banner of Eternal Flame, whatever unit he's in now has Flaming Attacks.. meaning it causes Fear in enemy cavalry, war beasts, and chariots… and now is effective against Regeneration.

Anyway, something to think about.  You need to balance the protection of your BSB with his potential to augment a unit, like a Priest does.

4) I know it is generally considered an average lore, but I like the Lore of Fire.  It's aggressive, generally cheap (meaning its easier for Level 1 wizards to cast), and its signature spell gets a double-power-up each time you buff it.  What I mean is, most signature-spells just get a buff to range… Fireball gets a buff to range AND the number of hits it generates.

With your large blocks, you might want to keep in mind Flaming Sword of RHUIN.  Now that any Strength attack can wound up to Toughness 10… getting a +1 to wound can potentially double the number of wounds you might be causing.  And, all your attacks are Magically Flaming… so… triple-plus groovy.

Fire is, on the surface, a bit weaker as it only generates Strength 4 hits… however… it's great at clearing out chaff, and softening up light-to-medium models (id est, Armor Saves of 5+ and 6+).  If nothing else, Fire can usually do enough plinking damage to at least remove a rank bonus.

4-A) Some more magic thoughts.

4-A-1) For the most part, players will throw one more d6 than the bare minimum requires.  For example, if a spell requires 8+ to cast, you'll see most players roll at least 3d6 to make sure they cast it.  Both Fire and Beasts have a spell that is cast on a 5+… so… if you want to be risky, you can try to d6 cast Fireball or d6 cast Feast of Crows.  One-die casting spells can open up options on low-magic turns, or if you've already burned 6 of your power dice.

4-A-2) I would suggest, if you can find the points, a Dispel Scroll.  There's always that one turn you really want to stop something from being cast.  Usually you'll have fewer Dispel dice than your opponent has Power dice… so having the Dispel Scroll as a back-up is definitely a solid.

5) I think you have some 13 models in your cavalry unit: the 11 Knights, a Captain, and the Arch Lector.  Firstly, 13 is an unlucky number.  Next… 13 is also an awkward number for cavalry (for movement, turning, formation, etc).  With your two characters being in the knights, you might be able to shave them down to 10.  That would let you run your Knights as 6x2 (when they're ready to charge), or as 4x3 (when they are on the move).  The points you save would let you get the Standard of Swiftness that I mentioned earlier.  Movement bonuses to flankers are always a plus.

6) With three units of archers, you might want to consider Huntsmen.  They can forward deploy, potentially funneling enemy movements for a turn, or generally being a distraction from your main army line.  Scouts do offer an odd psych-effect to the game.

7) I know that you're tight on points, and don't want to bring the Volley Gun yet.  With the increase in monsters and super-ridonkulus characters, you might still want to look at a cannon. 

Anyway, here are just some thoughts on the Volley Gun. 

As others have said, the Engineer offers a big, force multiplier to the Volley Gun.  Letting you re-roll the Artillery die, and offering BS4 to-hit is a double bonus.

Since you roll an Artillery Die per barrel, the Engineer can even let you risk-shoot the last barrel.  What I mean is, the Volley Gun's first Misfire just halves the remaining shots.  Well… if you're on your last barrel, a Misfire really has no effect for that turn.  As such, if you get a Misfire or 2 or 4 hits, it is often worth it to try for the 6, 8, or 10 hits with that final barrel (especially if you're first two barrels were lackluster and generated on 2 or 4 hits each).

Otherwise your army looks and has the feel of a Griffon Formation.  So… if you haven't read that post on the Parade Grounds forum, it might be useful to you. ))

[Sceleris]

In far less eloquent terms than previous post I'd make the following comments.

Bsb - either keep him alive with magic stuff or give him a magic banner worth it i.e. don't!  - why is Griffin banner more than the bloody elves pay for botwd!!

Get a Ward save and/or better armour for AL. Vhs is not worth it on a guy with a Gw and basically cr@p armour.