Topic: Tactical Exposition Game 1: Civil War Community Thread

[rothgar13]

So I just re-did the VPs, and by my count I'm up 101 points (I'll repost them here now).

Zif:
100  General
25    Halb Standard
264  Halbs
70    2 Archer Det
120  Vanilla Knights
250  STank
--------------------------------
829 Total

Me:
25    Halb Standard
270  Halbs
70    2 Archer Det
75    Spears
240  2 Hellblasters
120  Great Cannon
130  Hurricanum
--------------------------------
930 Total

A win by the slimmest of margins to me!

Either way, heck of a game, zif. You've been a good opponent, and you've given me a couple of things to think about with regards to my army composition.

[zifnab0]

So I just re-did the VPs, and by my count I'm up 101 points (I'll repost them here now).

I was getting different numbers using HHG's list, then realized he forgot the Halberd standard.

Things certainly could have gone either way at different points of the game, and I'm glad I was able to pull out a draw.  As I pointed out in the other thread, I think I was at a serious disadvantage in this game.

I think we brought two of the toughest Empire lists, and found out that in competent hands the game really does come down to dice.

If someone wants to run another game in this forum, I'd love to see one (or both) of these armies put against an equally tough list, perhaps Warriors of Chaos or Dark Elves.

[rothgar13]

I would also be interested in some games against WoC, mainly because I have been promised to play against them, and the people in quesiton haven't delivered.

[SevenSins]

Very interesting thread (s) a nice break from the tdg's

And a big  to the participants and organizer

[librisrouge]

I wish more of us here could run games like this. It was possibly more informative than the TDGs even, getting to see are particular players thoughts and feelings on a list and its use.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Okay all-  I apologize for the snafu in my original posts.  I stayed up late burning the midnight oil to get it all posted. 

Mistakes happen, just like they do in a real game, but it is important that I go back and get everything right to maintain the integrity of the process.  Games like this need to be won/lost based on the participants, not the moderator.  Anyway, thanks for all the patience.  The good news is that I know I have a whole forum to see and spot mistakes and make sure I get everything right!

The original threads have been updated with the correct ending to the battle.

Based on my calculations, Rothgar won by a mere 101 points.  I went back to double-check if he killed the 14 or 15 Spear unit...and the Battle Chronicler shows the unit that he killed was the 15 man one.  Amazing how 1 Spearmen could be the different between victory or a draw!

There has to be a winner and a loser...but I think one of the key messages from this battle was how tight some battles can be.  Generals with the right tools and tactics have to have some luck go with them.  I bet there probably at least 10 rolls late this game that were critical to the outcome.  When you have small blocks of infantry fighting for their lives after several rounds of battle with no hope of reinforcements....every blow counts. 

As far as future TEGs...I think we have stumbled upon a popular, successful format.  I am leaving this weekend to go on a military exercise for three weeks but want to crank up TEG2 right when I get back.

My original thought was something like this:

--I run a Griffon Formation list of mine, either 2500 or 3000 points, against the best list the forum can come up with to throw at me.  People can submit lists from any army besides Empire that they think is the toughest list to beat me.  The forum will vote and the list winner will be the General, backed up by the forum.  I would probably run 3 threads-  one with the complete dicelog for all to see, one for the enemy general and the forum to discuss strategy outside my eyes, and one for me to explain why I made the moves I did.

--I am also open to the forum picking an army they want to fight and an Empire list they want to test and picking Generals for each side.

--Last-  I am all about grudge matches.  If two forum members really want to go at it on the forum then I am all about it.  The only stipulation is that one needs to field Empire and the other something else.  I think TEG 1's Civil War is enough for Empire versus Empire.

Anyway, give me your thoughts. 

Don't forgot to post your thoughts on this battle as well!  The best part of TDGs and TEGs is when we can look at it with 20/20 hindsight and give our opinons!

 
HHG

[rothgar13]

That was a hard-fought W, that's for sure. Many props to zif for giving me one heck of a tough game. I'd also like to thank everyone who commented on my thread, both for (and against) 5-SP generation, and for double-checking my strategy. I have a couple of tweaks to my approach and my list already mapped out thanks to this game.

If the next TEG will be against your vaunted Griffon formation list, HHG, I'd like to propose a WoC list for it to fight against, as many of us have expressed interest in seeing the new book in play, and I have a MSU/MMU list that I've been itching to try out. We'll talk once you're back from your exercise, perhaps? Be safe, and thanks one more time for making this happen. A virtual hand and a virtual pint for you, sir.

[zifnab0]

I agreed to this game a little hesitantly, as I said in the other thread.  While I believed that the dual-horde list (with lots of chaff that I threw in at the last minute to keep my "no knights" promise ) was one of our stronger lists, I was a little nervous about facing the cannon firepower that Rothgar brought to the table and the improved mobility of a mounted list.

I brought the scissors to his rock.  He is a also much more serious tournament player than I am, and probably has a lot more games under his belt against competitive lists.

While Rothgar did end up with the victory, it was very narrow, and I think I proved my point that the dual horde + buff wagon list is a competitive option.  Demigryphs are good, but there's no substitute for a horde of Greatswords.  If I had to do it over, I'd definitely drop the spearmen for some knights.

Many thanks for Rothgar for the game, for HHG for running it, and for everyone that commented and read the threads.  It was a great learning experience and taught me a lot about the game, and I hope someone learned from my mistakes.

[mrth0msen]

I agreed to this game a little hesitantly, as I said in the other thread.  While I believed that the dual-horde list (with lots of chaff that I threw in at the last minute to keep my "no knights" promise ) was one of our stronger lists, I was a little nervous about facing the cannon firepower that Rothgar brought to the table and the improved mobility of a mounted list.

I brought the scissors to his rock.  He is a also much more serious tournament player than I am, and probably has a lot more games under his belt against competitive lists.

While Rothgar did end up with the victory, it was very narrow, and I think I proved my point that the dual horde + buff wagon list is a competitive option.  Demigryphs are good, but there's no substitute for a horde of Greatswords.  If I had to do it over, I'd definitely drop the spearmen for some knights.

Many thanks for Rothgar for the game, for HHG for running it, and for everyone that commented and read the threads.  It was a great learning experience and taught me a lot about the game, and I hope someone learned from my mistakes.

You are right, but just remember that Rothgar chose to charge in with first his knights, and then his halberdiers. I think that in s more competitive setting, he would have stayed back and conserved points, which would have meant that the only combat your greatswords would see wa trying to beat up that steam tank or run after the halberdiers. Thats what I think at least, but I would like to hear Rothgars oppinion on what he would have done in a tournament setting! Rothgar?

[rothgar13]

In a tourney? I'd walk the knights back and flee if charged. That would then free me up to look for the flank once the Greatswords were engaged, or even slip around the back and try to hunt down the Archer units/war machines. I'll admit I was a bit overly aggressive with them this game, but then again I didn't figure they'd be slain to the man, having a 3+ save and all.

[sammay23]

I like the list idea, HHG. Also, I would certainly love to take an all-cav Empire list out for a spin after you demo the Griffon.

[librisrouge]

I wish we had more people qualified to run things like this, other than HHG. I'd love to try going up against a fellow here in a grudge match but I doubt my middling talent is worth his one person when he could be showing off the talents of our expert tacticians. I do though like the idea of somebody taking on his Griffon formation. Knowing the style of list he plays ahead of time could be instrumental in us seeing the best manner to beat it.

[librisrouge]

Am I the only one that would like to see the Griffon formation go up against a dedicated Empire gunline, with 5 or more warmachines, engineers, and even some BS based missile troops. A bit of wizard support (Lvl 4 fire wizard with +1 Dispel Staff and Lvl 2 fire wizard with Dispel Scroll perhaps.)

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Am I the only one that would like to see the Griffon formation go up against a dedicated Empire gunline, with 5 or more warmachines, engineers, and even some BS based missile troops. A bit of wizard support (Lvl 4 fire wizard with +1 Dispel Staff and Lvl 2 fire wizard with Dispel Scroll perhaps.)

If a gunline is what the forum wants to throw against the Griffon, I would much prefer a Dwarf or Skaven one. 

Anyway, this battle here was a pretty good showcase of an arty heavy list versus a more infantry-based list!

[zifnab0]

Yes, dwarf or skaven gunline would be better.  I'd prefer dwarves, but skaven would be more of a challenge.

[Aineias The Scarred]

I have a question for zif. You decided to put spears on the field because you didn't want to take mounted units at all, how would your list have been using knights instead of spears? Do you think it would have been better for you or knights simply don't match with your strategy?

I have to say that I really enjoyed the game and you guys have shown us some great pieces of tactics. Thanks a lot to both of you and to HHG for his effots!

[zifnab0]

I have a question for zif. You decided to put spears on the field because you didn't want to take mounted units at all, how would your list have been using knights instead of spears? Do you think it would have been better for you or knights simply don't match with your strategy?

I would've taken knights instead of spears.  If I dropped both spears + the second archer unit, I could probably take 2 units of 5 knights.

I think that choice would have been much better - I didn't need all the diverters I had and the knights could have provided some much needed CR against the Demigryphs.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

FYI-  I started the intro thread for TEG2 so the forum can pick the opponent while I am gone for a few weeks.

Get to list building!

 
HHG

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I like the list idea, HHG. Also, I would certainly love to take an all-cav Empire list out for a spin after you demo the Griffon.

Yes, I think this would be a great idea for TEG3.