Topic: Best tactic against Doomfire Warlocks and fast cav?

[SoonerSox]

As a new player I have very little experience, however I played a 1000 point game against Dark Elves last weekend and one of my problems was dealing with my opponents Doomfire Warlocks. The match ended in a draw after 6 turns but we discussed what would have happened if it played on. I got the feeling he would have wiped my whole army with just the unit of fast cav warlocks.

I had no artillery, my lvl 2 wizard was shadow with miasma and enfeeble. So I had no ranged threat except for archers that don't seem capable of hitting the broad side of a very large barn.

With my little experience, my instinct is to add a Great Cannon to my small but growing army. I just wanted to see how others deal with ranged fast cav in smaller point battles. On paper pistoliers seem inadequate to deal with the warlocks. So anyone able to educate me?

[Jomppexx]

Well, shooting is really our only option against fast cav.
We can't really catch them with anything and they beat our fast cav in combat.

[Ondjage]

Magic missiles is the bees knees against elf fast cav. Any one will do! The cheapest one you can get is the ruby ring of ruin for 25 points

[Siberius]

If you can throw out a small magic missile that can work too. With ld 8 and often being away from the general, panic is actually a slight danger to them so killing a couple with shooting our magic at least gives a decent shot of making them run off the table.

[mottdon]

With what you have now, equip your Shadow Wizard with the Ruby Ring of Ruin as stated above, but as far as what you need to add to your army next, definitely get a Great Cannon if you don't already have one.  They are much more of a priority than Pistoliers.  The Empire excels at War Machines.  Utilize it. 

[Syn Ace]

Helblaster!

[Derg]

I Second the helblaster with a vengance and the low cast magic missiles, it's also one of the few times magic resistance is handy. They wouldn't be such a pain if it wasn't for that nasty 4+ward they rock.
Your not wrong about them destroying ur army the lower strength doombolt alone is gross but the mega one at 4d6 strength 5 is nuts I got hit with 2 irresistible my last 1500pt game...it killed 45 halberdiers the feedback killed one doomfire warlock.

[Rune]

Helblaster!

This.

Warlocks can be a pain. Being elves they hit really hard, and their natural vulnerability to practically anything is trumped by 4+ ward save. Whyever did they give them such a huge ward save beats me. But they should be manageable.

Pistoliers are okay against them only if combined with other shooting, like Helblasters.

Other than that if you can get an idea where they'll deploy a small unit of vanilla knight can keep them checked as long as they don't vanguard and move past you on turn one. A unit of knights slamming against them should make short work of them if they don't roll godlike for the wards (and you fail all of those 1+ saves).

Magic missiles is another way to go - something to combo shooting with.

[Krokz]

If you expect a lot of elfs/fast cavalry, then Mortar isn't a bad choice.
Hellblasters aren't a save pick since Wood elves can just out shoot them (30") with poison before they move anything in range.

As for Warlocks: they hate Banishment.

[SorenJ]

How does feedback and her scrolls work against units that are spellcasters?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Most Dark Elves players will point to Dark Elves AB p. 41: "If the unit is targeted by a rule that affects a wizard, your opponent must choose one Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as target" and argue that therefore only one Warlock can ever be killed by the Feedback Scroll.

It can, however, also be argued that this is simply for targeting purposes, just like you have to choose a Warlock for determining line of sight etc.
"Each time the unit cast a spell you must nominate on Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as the caster for the purposes of line of sight, range, etc."

In the case of the Feedback Scroll, note that it does not actually "target" the unit. BRB p. 504: "The casting Wizard takes a wound for every result of 5+ rolled, with no armour saves allowed." The casting Wizard is still the whole unit, as the one model is only nominated as caster for the purposes of line of sight, range etc." 

Of course, the second interpretation will not get you many friends among Dark Elves.

[SorenJ]

Could be fun but perhaps expensive to turn one DE into a Road with the Hex scroll. Having Movement 1 would hurt.

[Syn Ace]

Of course, the second interpretation will not get you many friends among Dark Elves.

Dark Elf friends are overrated--they're prone to stabbing you in the back or poisoning you.

[Derg]

The dark elves and the game don't need anymore game changing spells. Under the rule that only one model gets hit with feedback, and the ward save, doomfire warlocks are one of the best and destructive units in the game and being only 25pts are a weak 6 pts more then pistoleers. Me and my dark elf friend have decided it makes way more sense to have miscasting affect the whole unit.
I've decided it's a bad idea to do cost and ability comparisons between our and the dark elf book it's depressing. Then again it makes
U feel like a gangster when you win.

[Calisson]

Most Dark Elves players will point to Dark Elves AB p. 41: "If the unit is targeted by a rule that affects a wizard, your opponent must choose one Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as target" and argue that therefore only one Warlock can ever be killed by the Feedback Scroll.

Fidelis, you have been known for more appropriate quotes.
Before the sentence you quoted, there are other sentences. Could you read two sentences before?
It reads something like (my translation from the French):
"Each time the unit casts a spell, you must designate the champ warlock or a warlock as being the spell caster, to determine LOS, range, etc."
This would be the actual sentence mentioned by a decent DE player, rather than the one you quoted.
RAW, there is effectively a single warlock designated as the single spell caster for ALL purposes ("etc."), so the target of the feedback scroll is selected by the DE player, not by his opponent, and that is a single model.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Fidelis, you have been known for more appropriate quotes.
Before the sentence you quoted, there are other sentences. Could you read two sentences before?

Could you read my whole post?

[Calisson]

Could you read my whole post?

  Sorry, you did mention that sentence indeed.
However, the quote that you placed in the mouth of a DE player seemed not to be the most likely.

Please allow me to cancel and rephrase my previous post, so that you can provide an answer to the argument, too.

-=-=-

Most Dark Elves players will point to Dark Elves AB p. 41: "If the unit is targeted by a rule that affects a wizard, your opponent must choose one Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as target" and argue that therefore only one Warlock can ever be killed by the Feedback Scroll.

It can, however, also be argued that this is simply for targeting purposes, just like you have to choose a Warlock for determining line of sight etc.
"Each time the unit cast a spell you must nominate on Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as the caster for the purposes of line of sight, range, etc."

In the case of the Feedback Scroll, note that it does not actually "target" the unit. BRB p. 504: "The casting Wizard takes a wound for every result of 5+ rolled, with no armour saves allowed." The casting Wizard is still the whole unit, as the one model is only nominated as caster for the purposes of line of sight, range etc." 

Of course, the second interpretation will not get you many friends among Dark Elves.

(colours added, blue in the mouth of the Empire player, purple in the mouth of the DE player).

Rather than the sentence you quoted in the mouth of a DE player, the actual sentence mentioned by a decent DE player would be the second one that you quoted, very strangely, as a would-be counter-argument.

Most decent Dark Elves players will point to Dark Elves AB p. 41: "Each time the unit casts a spell, you must nominate one Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as the caster for the purposes of line of sight, range, etc..".
A single warlock is designated  by the DE player as the single spell caster for ALL purposes.
It cannot be argued that this is simply for targeting purposes, because of the "etc.".

Most decent Dark Elves players will point to BRB p. 504: "The casting Wizard takes a wound for every result of 5+ rolled, with no armour saves allowed."
Most decent Dark Elves players will argue that therefore only one Warlock can ever be killed by the Feedback Scroll.

Of course, interpreting "the caster" to be the whole unit despite RAW will not get you many friends among Dark Elves.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

A single warlock is designated  by the DE player as the single spell caster for ALL purposes.
It cannot be argued that this is simply for targeting purposes, because of the "etc.".

It can, and to me it seems more natural. The phrase clearly does not state for all purposes, but "for purposes of line of sight, range, etc.". What the etc. actually means remains unspecified, but it is "the rest of such things" i.e. things similar to line of sight and range. Taking wounds does not strike me as similar to those, but, admittedly, stranger things have happened, and the other interpretation is possible as well.

Of course, there would have been a number of easy ways to phrase the rule in an unambiguous manner, but, as so often, they failed to do so. 

[Rein]

Uhhh what?

Unfortunately this rule is clearly written in favor of the warlocks.

Consider the first part of the sentence on p.41 as quoted earlier:
If the unit is targeted by a rule that affects a wizard,
Who is targeted? The unit (so the warlocks)
How is it targeted? by a rule that affects a wizard.

Now consider the rule:
"The casting Wizard takes a wound for every result of 5+ rolled, with no armour saves allowed."
Does this rule affect a wizard? yes

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As so often, you might want to read the previous posts.

[psychichobo]

I'm aware that comparisons aren't the best way to solve things, but how are things worded in regards to Sisters of the Thorn and Pink Horrors? If either of them have something specifying this more clearly, it might help to come to an agreement* regarding how this event should turn out.


*I've had an Elf player claim that the Always Strikes First in the Khaine book overrides the rulebook version and thus provides re-rolls to hit with Great Weapons. Sometimes you just have to resort to a compromise when you're halfway through a game and then discover your opponent has 'unique' ways of interpreting things and you really don't have the time.

[Yvain]

*I've had an Elf player claim that the Always Strikes First in the Khaine book overrides the rulebook version and thus provides re-rolls to hit with Great Weapons. Sometimes you just have to resort to a compromise when you're halfway through a game and then discover your opponent has 'unique' ways of interpreting things and you really don't have the time.

I don't know what the Khaine book says, however I really disagree with that statement. If someone decides halfway through the game they want to cheat it is time to pack up your stuff and leave. GW games tend to head towards what some designer thought is cool not what is balanced. As a result, both players should really be going out of the way to ensure the other person is having a good game as well.

Compromise  is this rule is really ambiguous and it could potentially give me a huge advantage lets either roll off for it before the game starts or let me default to the weaker version. It is not the other way around. Anyone that plays the I found a rule exploit and I am going to use it probably shouldn't be played with to begin with. Again I don't know what the Khaine book says, but it is likely your opponent knew about a potential rule change and neglected to discusses it with you before hand. That is very poor sportsmanship.

[Oxycutor]

I'm aware that comparisons aren't the best way to solve things, but how are things worded in regards to Sisters of the Thorn and Pink Horrors? If either of them have something specifying this more clearly, it might help to come to an agreement* regarding how this event should turn out.


*I've had an Elf player claim that the Always Strikes First in the Khaine book overrides the rulebook version and thus provides re-rolls to hit with Great Weapons. Sometimes you just have to resort to a compromise when you're halfway through a game and then discover your opponent has 'unique' ways of interpreting things and you really don't have the time.

That Elf player is either misreading very badly, or flat out lying.  As there are no changes to  the rules for Always Strikes First and or Always Strikes Last in any of The End Times books..  As it states in the BRB, they cancel each other's out, so no rerolls to hit. 

There are changes to Hatred, which could affect rerolls to hit, but only because Dark Elves change from hating High Elves to hating Elves, but that will only apply if using one the "Host of..." lists from the Khaine book, and not in normal games.

In my local community we have to ask up front when arranging a game to agree on whether to use any End Times rules, and which ones.

Sent from my KFAPWI using Tapatalk

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I'm aware that comparisons aren't the best way to solve things, but how are things worded in regards to Sisters of the Thorn and Pink Horrors? If either of them have something specifying this more clearly, it might help to come to an agreement* regarding how this event should turn out.

The rules for Pink Horrors are, mutatis mutandis, the same as those of the Sisters of Thorn, and very similar to the Doomfire Warlocks rules. 

Wood Elves AB p. 46:
Deepwood Coven: A unit of Sisters of the Thorn is considered to be a Level 2 Wizard that knows the spells Shield of Thorns (Lore of Life) and Curse of Anraheir (Lore of Beasts). This doesn't prevent other friendly Wizards of knowing the same spells. The unit receives an additional +1 to cast for each rank of 5 or more models in the unit after the first, to a maximum of +3. Each time the unit cast a spell (or is targeted by a special rule that affects a Wizard) you must nominate on one Sister or Handmaiden as the caster (or target) for the purposes of line of sight, range, etc. In the event of a miscast, do not roll on the Miscast table. Instead, the unit suffers D3 Wounds with no armour saves allowed.

The difference is that it is always the controlling player who gets to choose the Wizard. The crux remains how to interpret "for the purposes of line of sight, range, etc."

If we follow the Dark Elves interpretation, there are some obvious inconsistencies that will occur. To name just two: 
- Although nominated as a Wizard, the model remains a R&F model (or a Champion) - with the appropriate casualty rules and overflow of wounds. There is nothing specified as such in the rules for Doomfire  Warlocks, etc. (see: we are talking about similar things here  ), that would overrule this. 
- Any effect that will remove a spell or wizard level, would limit this to one model. However, special rules that affect the whole unit (like Deepwood Coven) affect all models in the unit. There is, of course, no problem, if the unit, being the Wizard, is affected by the loss of level or spell. If not, this would basically provide immunity to these and similar effects, as the unit itself retains the Wizard level and the spells - and thus all models in the unit too.   

[Calisson]

If we follow the Dark Elves interpretation, there are some obvious inconsistencies that will occur. To name just two: 
- Although nominated as a Wizard, the model remains a R&F model (or a Champion) - with the appropriate casualty rules and overflow of wounds. There is nothing specified as such in the rules for Doomfire  Warlocks, etc. (see: we are talking about similar things here  ), that would overrule this. 
- Any effect that will remove a spell or wizard level, would limit this to one model. However, special rules that affect the whole unit (like Deepwood Coven) affect all models in the unit. There is, of course, no problem, if the unit, being the Wizard, is affected by the loss of level or spell. If not, this would basically provide immunity to these and similar effects, as the unit itself retains the Wizard level and the spells - and thus all models in the unit too.

Would you please care to elaborate where there would be inconsistencies? Would it be inconsistent with gameplay (that could be worrisome) or just with logics (well, whatever logics remains in a fantasy game)?
- casualty & overflow, I fail to see where it causes any problem.
- to remove a wizard level, I cannot find any situation when it might occur - warlocks have specific miscasts effects.
- In case of a use of the "frog" scroll, there would be a single warlock turned to a frog, reducing the speed of the whole unit to 1 - and they cannot separate, contrary to characters. The other warlocks would still be able to cast.