Topic: 8th edition on route.

[Xathrodox86]

This whole thread has now gone beyond the Emperors light.

Perhaps if the Emperor had just told Lorgar the truth . . . it's all he ever wanted . . .

Would it really have changed anything? Lorgar would still jump to Chaos bandwagon, since in his eyes, it was the ultimate truth.

[Gankom]

The thing for me anyway, is that Lorgar absolutely needed something to believe in. Da Emps didn't want it to be him, but I always wonder if perhaps he could have convinced Lorgar to believe in humanity instead of gods. Not necessarily the Imperial Truth, but the power of people so to speak.

Although the heresy was going to happen anyway. Chaos put to much time and effort into it.

erm... not that the heresy is real fellow citizens! It is all just bad myths and story telling!

[Aldaris]

Lorgar didn't need something to believe in, he needed something to worship. That's a difference, and an abstract concept ain't gonna scratch that itch.

[Darknight]

Did Lorgar ever actually back away from what he wrote in the Lectio Divinatus?

The LD forms the basis of the Temple of the Savior Emperor, which becomes the Imperial Cult. The core of current theology is the LD. The Imperial Cult rose to prominence in the face of the Imperial Truth - Fatidicus fought in the siege of the Imperial Palace, and he lived to be less than 200 (I think the canonical age is 120). By that time, the Cult dominated areas of earth and beyond.

There isn't enough time for a cult to develop without a solid, accurate, consistent theological foundation. What I mean is; there was a "theology" (the Imperial Truth - a rejection of supernaturalism) which was well-established. It lost ground in not only a few short generations, but also within living memory of those who espoused it. And it did so being based on the LD.

Lorgar's LD absolutely has to make theological sense. Whatever arguments it made (and it has to make them - a religion does not become dominant without making arguments) they are ones which many people found appealing over and above the Imperial Truth.

So my question would be; did Lorgar ever repudiate it? Did he have a point when he said "All that was wrong - it wasn't the truth"? Or did he always believe (and still believes) the Emperor is a god, but that there are other gods and it is better to worship one who acknowledges you?

[TexasYankee]

Did Lorgar ever actually back away from what he wrote in the Lectio Divinatus?

So my question would be; did Lorgar ever repudiate it? Did he have a point when he said "All that was wrong - it wasn't the truth"? Or did he always believe (and still believes) the Emperor is a god, but that there are other gods and it is better to worship one who acknowledges you?

From what I have read, Lorgar went full Chaos and hates the fact that the book that he wrote is now still used as the basis for the entire Imperium of Man (well, at least for the commoners; some SM chapters still just think of Emps as a really advanced human). Not sure if he now (as a Daemon Prince) still thinks as the Emps as a god, but he sure as hell despises him. Serious daddy issues there, poor bastard.

I was surprised Lorgar didn't show up during the Gathering Storm series, but I guess he's still in the warp somewhere contemplating his next move and writing down even more thesis about how Chaos is awesome and Emps is just a bitch.

Also one of my favorite quotes from the CSM codex: "I fought for years for the Emperor, and all I ever received was his damning silence; now I kill his lap-dogs by the thousands and the dark gods promise me the universe."

[Darknight]

Promise you the universe. I wonder if they will ever keep it?

[Artobans Ghost]

Pure and outrite heresry of course!

Also one of my favorite quotes from the CSM codex: "I fought for years for the Emperor, and all I ever received was his damning silence; now I kill his lap-dogs by the thousands and the dark gods promise me the universe."

But a tough one to argue 😺

[Xathrodox86]

Did Lorgar ever actually back away from what he wrote in the Lectio Divinatus?

So my question would be; did Lorgar ever repudiate it? Did he have a point when he said "All that was wrong - it wasn't the truth"? Or did he always believe (and still believes) the Emperor is a god, but that there are other gods and it is better to worship one who acknowledges you?

From what I have read, Lorgar went full Chaos and hates the fact that the book that he wrote is now still used as the basis for the entire Imperium of Man (well, at least for the commoners; some SM chapters still just think of Emps as a really advanced human). Not sure if he now (as a Daemon Prince) still thinks as the Emps as a god, but he sure as hell despises him. Serious daddy issues there, poor bastard.

I was surprised Lorgar didn't show up during the Gathering Storm series, but I guess he's still in the warp somewhere contemplating his next move and writing down even more thesis about how Chaos is awesome and Emps is just a bitch.

Also one of my favorite quotes from the CSM codex: "I fought for years for the Emperor, and all I ever received was his damning silence; now I kill his lap-dogs by the thousands and the dark gods promise me the universe."

Now this made my day.

In "Mortarion's Heart", the ol' Stinker says that he is a son of a demigod (Emps) and a disciple of a true god (Nurgle). I think that most Daemon Primarchs think of their daddy as at least a demigod, altough a very shitty one.

[Aldaris]

Another Lorgar quote seems appropriate here:

"The difference between Gods and Daemons largely depends on where one is standing at the time."

[Xathrodox86]

Another Lorgar quote seems appropriate here:

"The difference between Gods and Daemons largely depends on where one is standing at the time."

Well, like it or not (and I'm in the Imperium's camp, Alpha Legion to the core) Chaos IS the ultimate truth and the ultimate victor. It is, simply put, humanity, but magnified times thousand. Still, these are our emotions, our fears, our lusts and passions. We can't fight that, because we would stop being humans. That's why Chaos has won, I think.

[Darknight]

Chaos is fallen humanity - violence for the sake of violence, excess for the sake of excess etc. It is a single passion not only taken to the extreme, but without any control. Part of the philosophical reason for the Imperium is to impose Order on these passions, not to wipe them out.

[Xathrodox86]

Chaos is fallen humanity - violence for the sake of violence, excess for the sake of excess etc. It is a single passion not only taken to the extreme, but without any control. Part of the philosophical reason for the Imperium is to impose Order on these passions, not to wipe them out.

True, but the purest humanity means unrestricted emotions. It is the society that imposes limits on violence, sex etc. Chaos says to live like people were meant to live - 100% with their nature, free from any artifical restrictions.

[Gankom]

Another Lorgar quote seems appropriate here:

"The difference between Gods and Daemons largely depends on where one is standing at the time."

Well, like it or not (and I'm in the Imperium's camp, Alpha Legion to the core) Chaos IS the ultimate truth and the ultimate victor. It is, simply put, humanity, but magnified times thousand. Still, these are our emotions, our fears, our lusts and passions. We can't fight that, because we would stop being humans. That's why Chaos has won, I think.

Lets focus on that bolded part. Yes we can trust you mr Alpha Legion. Trust you long enough to get the bolter...

[Darknight]

Chaos is fallen humanity - violence for the sake of violence, excess for the sake of excess etc. It is a single passion not only taken to the extreme, but without any control. Part of the philosophical reason for the Imperium is to impose Order on these passions, not to wipe them out.

True, but the purest humanity means unrestricted emotions. It is the society that imposes limits on violence, sex etc. Chaos says to live like people were meant to live - 100% with their nature, free from any artifical restrictions.

I always find it fascinating when people declare an uncivilized state to be the natural state of humanity - when there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest it. Even if we assume humans act "like animals" all our closest relatives form societies with structure and so forth. They might not rise to a level we would call a civilization, but they DO have restrictions and structure and hierarchy etc.

Chaos tears all that away. It is unrestrained, and restraints are natural to a co-operative creature such as humanity.

[Xathrodox86]

Another Lorgar quote seems appropriate here:

"The difference between Gods and Daemons largely depends on where one is standing at the time."

Well, like it or not (and I'm in the Imperium's camp, Alpha Legion to the core) Chaos IS the ultimate truth and the ultimate victor. It is, simply put, humanity, but magnified times thousand. Still, these are our emotions, our fears, our lusts and passions. We can't fight that, because we would stop being humans. That's why Chaos has won, I think.

Lets focus on that bolded part. Yes we can trust you mr Alpha Legion. Trust you long enough to get the bolter...

Your bolter is also from Alpha Legion. Hydra dominatus.

[Aldaris]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/03/legion-focus-world-eaters-aug-3gw-homepage-post-2/

Looking cool. And I really like that relic. "PSYKER POWER!" "Nope, denied. And have a perils too... aaand 50 blows from a chainaxe."

[TexasYankee]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/03/legion-focus-world-eaters-aug-3gw-homepage-post-2/

Looking cool. And I really like that relic. "PSYKER POWER!" "Nope, denied. And have a perils too... aaand 50 blows from a chainaxe."

So my Bezerkers get 3 attacks and get to fight 3 times each phase. Bring a Dark Acolyte and they get to re-roll all those attacks, and my Warlord gains an attack and hulks out each time he gimps a snowflake. Maybe I DON'T need the Axe of Blind Fury . . .

My current build of (8) 'Zerkers + Lord + Dark Acolyte in a Land Raider will still be deadly. And the 2 x 10 man squads of CSM with bolt pistol and chainsword get choppier. This also stacks very nicely with Death to the False Emperor.

[Aldaris]

Oh baby, the CSM book sounds great! We get exalted champions, mini Lord with a 6" reroll to wound in CC aura. YES!

Also, some really fluffy stuff. For example this warlord trait:

I Am Alpharius - Alpha Legion only - pick a chaos marine warlord trait in addition to this one.  If your warlord dies, pick a new Alpha Legion character to be your warlord, and give them this warlord trait (including choosing an additional CSM warlord trait for them).  Your opponent only counts as slaying your warlord if you run out of Alpha Legion characters to pass this trait to.

[FR1DAY]

Alpha legion are by far my favourite traitor (or are they) legion. Same as the legion trait in the CSM book prior to the end of 7th. Its harder as characters are more scarce now, in 7th every sergeant was one.

[Darknight]

Also, some really fluffy stuff. For example this warlord trait:

I Am Alpharius - Alpha Legion only - pick a chaos marine warlord trait in addition to this one.  If your warlord dies, pick a new Alpha Legion character to be your warlord, and give them this warlord trait (including choosing an additional CSM warlord trait for them).  Your opponent only counts as slaying your warlord if you run out of Alpha Legion characters to pass this trait to.

That's the coolest thing ever. I wouldn't even be mad.

[phillyt]

This might seem a bit gushy, but I find that the marine and chaos marine books both do a great job of rounding out their chapters/legions and subtly push play styles to match those essential concepts without forcing it.

As of this moment, neither book pushes their army so far beyond the Index lists that it feels unfair while still greatly deepening the sense of depth.

Of course the biggest issue with 8th still remains (though it was an issue with every other edition as well) the problem of the alpha strike.  But this is still an awesome edition.

[TexasYankee]

This might seem a bit gushy, but I find that the marine and chaos marine books both do a great job of rounding out their chapters/legions and subtly push play styles to match those essential concepts without forcing it.

As of this moment, neither book pushes their army so far beyond the Index lists that it feels unfair while still greatly deepening the sense of depth.

Of course the biggest issue with 8th still remains (though it was an issue with every other edition as well) the problem of the alpha strike.  But this is still an awesome edition.

I don't see any Alpha Strike issues yet, but agree 8th is awesome so far. I didn't have a problem with 7th until the codex formations made about half the armies way OP and the other half about worthless. What I have seen in the first codex (SM) doesn't seem game breaking at all, but such was true of the first codex (Orks) in 7th. If they hold true to their word and release close to a dozen codexs before the end of the year, we'll find out soon enough.

[phillyt]

If you're group isn't seeing the issues where the person who gets first turn normally cripples the other, you are one lucky man!

[Aldaris]

Put a sizeable piece of LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the board, and use several other pieces of it too. Sure, deepstriking and stuff can still do very powerful alpha strikes, but screens should somewhat mitigate that, no?

[cisse]

Somewhat, but not all. Deepstriking unitscan nearly always find something to shoot at, as can units with long-range firepower unless indeed you huddle in a corner behind LOS blocking terrain. I have only played 4 or 5 games so far but the damage done in the 1st turn is far greater than what happened in 7th I feel. Partly due to deepstriking units, flyers, ... all being on the board on t1 and partly because some stuff got deadlier I think.