Topic: Making the Marianburg concept work

[Calimehter]

First off . . . hello!

I am primarily a Wood Elf player, and have played them for many years now, but I've been toying with the idea of an Empire army for some time now, and last year I picked up a bunch of models second-hand to try them out.

The army I want to play is a Marianburg-type army . . . that is, and army that doesn't rely so much on Helblasters, Steam Tanks, Flagellents, or even Knights but instead fills in those gaps with some mercenary Dogs of War units.  The basic army I've tried out is:

Elector Count - Sword of Sigismund, VH Speculum, full plate (in infantry)
Mage w/ 2X scrolls

25 Pikemen
25 Spearmen w/detachments
25 Swordsmen or sometimes 20 Greatswords w/ detachements

2 Cannons
10 Handgunners
10 Crossbows
10 Archers
10 Vespero's Vendetta

3-5 Ogres w/ Great Weapons

The size and nature of the detachments for the infantry blocks has varied quite a bit depending on the points available - but there's always *some* there - as has the exact number of Ogres.
I have also tried a few variants where the EC was placed on a Griffon, where an extra cannon was squeezed in, or where I put in a small-ish unit fof Knights (i.e. Merc cav).

Basic concept is a fairly defensive army with a small but solid infantry line that is backed up by shooting, character support, skirmishers, and even some Ogres for pure punching power.  In a pinch, I will advance with the infantry down one flank using flankers and covering fire to compensate for their slow advance . . .

. . . in theory.

In practice, I've had a lot of problems getting an army like this to work.  Seems I get simply overpowered and overrun.  Power units seem to be able to fight their way out of any traps I set, LD seems to fail at critical times, and occasionally raw magic power simply blows me away (I'm thinking about putting in the Banner of Arcane Warding or a second mage).

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Am I missing something in my army?  Not enough infantry?  Not enough hard-hitting power?  Army concept that simply won't work without overused toys like Helblasters and Steam Tanks?

Or do you think its a fairly solid army that I just need more practice with?  

Wouldn't mind getting some thoughts from folks more familiar with Empire, because I'm getting a little disappointed with it at the moment.  

[Atchman]

You have a balanced force with a nice mix of stuff.  The problem you will have is being overwhelmed on a small frontage.  Your shooty stuff takes up a large area, so makes for holes in your line.  

Perhaps, you could deploy your shooty stuff in front of your Pikemen and such.  Those units really to be effective need to be charged.  

If you look at what you have for your stationary units, I only have one suggestion and that is a BSB with the Banner of Sigismund for the Spearmen.  That would give you a nice pike unit with a stubborn unit on each side of it.  Your ogres and cavalry can protect the flanks of those units wity your shooting deployed perhaps in front of these units.  The ogres and cavalry are then counterchargers on the units held up by the greatswords, pikemen, and stubborn spearmen.  

You must have enough missile protection and combat power to protect the edges of this army.  Maybe you could use terrain or the table edge to protect your weakside, allowing you to place you cannons, ogres, and cavalry on the same flank.

Hope this helps!  

Atch

[Kryvich]

Can you post the maximum roster size? Looks like it is something about 1500 points?

Nice mix of stuff. But let's analyse your possible enemy (aaumnig that you defender):
1. Shooter army (like Wood Elves). You lost - only 30 shots + 2 warmashenes against at least 50-60 shots and 4 warmashines.
2. Magic army (VC, O&G). You lost. Your dispel pool only 4 + two scrolls. Opponent have att least 10-12 power dice.
3. Elite strong unit army (HE, Chaos, Bret). You lost. You have no such firepower to stop enemy punch units. In Close Combat they roll you infantry.
4. Horde Army. You lost. In Close Combat for each you unit enemy can field 2-3 with the same size. You have no such firepower to reduce enemy numbers.

[Kryvich]

May be that will be helpfull:
1. For the defensive army you have weak firepower. May be 1-2 more warmachines help you.
2. Drop the Vespero Vendetta. If you want excellent skirmish troop, take simple duelist (with pistols for example). Much cheaper and reliable. The task of the skirmishers - slowing the enemy and hunting the shooter/warmachines, not the close combat with enemy core units.  Upgrade your archers to the huntsmen. Excellent skirmishers/scount troop. Task - see 1.
4. Drop te crossbownen. Take one more 10 handgunners. For both handgunner unit take marksmen.
5. Try to avoid expensive ROR units. Search via Internet ROR sites and learn - what DOW-ROR units is better.
6. 3-5 Ogres with their low leadership  - it's not a good punch. You should keep them, but take some heavy cavalry too. And place one of your hero for leadership and hitting addition.
7. Try pistoliers. Excellent empire unit.
8. You weak on magic. Boost magic defence (dispel dice). Read the article from that site - very usefull. Never take unit magic defense (banner of warding)- it is practically useless. You have no herohammer and hammer unit to protect. Enemy mage always can find another target among your troops.

[Calimehter]

Thanks for the tips so far!

I have tried deploying the infantry behind the missle screen once and had good success with it, so I will continue to work on that as a standard deployment.

I am willing to drop Vespero's - they have done well for me as skirmisher-hunters and I love the models, but they ARE 165 points as I like to field them.  Cheap for Wood Elves, but maybe a bit much for humans.     The crossbows stay, though.  Very mercenary-fluffy, and useful against enemy shooting troops that the handgunners sometimes have trouble reaching with their 24" range.  Maybe Vespero's will go toward buying some more handgunners or detachments . . . or keep that 3rd cannon as a permanent addition to the army.

I'll probably "harden up" the infantry line by sticking with the Greatswords and putting either the Griffon or Sigismund (w/BSB) banners in the Spearmen.

Kryvich - I read your concerns loud and clear.  So far I havent' been able to match up well against any enemies that put their strengths in one particular area, tho I think you are even more pessemistic than I am!  8)  I'm really hoping that its just a matter of tweaking rather than having to "Nuln-out" or start loading up on Knights.  I've been happy with the Ogres so far, though.  They are durable, cause fear,  and deal out a lot of S6 hits.

[squig87]

Ogres are a choice for dogs of war? i always thought that they were only available for purely dogs of war armies. i dont have copy of the rules but ogres in an empire sounds pretty awesome. ive never really considered the dogs of war units as i feel that they dont suit an army exept mercenry armies.

I like your army. i feel as an empire plater it can easy to "nuln-out" as you say or go crazy on knights to win easily. But a good balenced empire army is difficult to tweak and fine tune to suit all enemy. I also think Kryvich is being a bit pesimistic as not all armies specialise. but this said the advice is sound if facing an army you know follows the traditional "specialised" format.

[Atchman]

I thought Vespero's Vendetta were cavalry.......sorry!

An all infantry army with lots of low toughness, low armor, low strength, average intiative troops.  I think you will have to beef up your army with characters.  As I mentioned before a BSB with Banner of Sigismund would help a bunch!  The other item that would be crucial is the Rod of Command (automatic pass first break test) on a critical unit like your pikemen.  I also think I would use the Greatswords everytime, since you don't have many "rock" units.  A Griffon Standard wouldn't be fluffy in the Greatswords, but it would go a long way to help them hold the line.  

I don't know if it would be "fluffy" for your army but the Battle Captain on Pegasus would be a nice 4th character.  You have very few march blocking troops, except for your archers.  The Battle Captain could fufill that role well, so that your handgunners, crossbowmen, and great cannons can play havoc on their approach.  If you don't outnumber them by the time they get to you, you are probably toast.  

Your army is vulnerable without significant march blockers and diverters, you must beef up your line (with characters and magic items) to absorb the charge and use detachments to countercharge.

atch

[Kryvich]

I'm a bit pesimistic    May be.
I became pessimistic after founding some tourment winner army list via Internet with realy specialized army.
Simple example -
Skaven - 30-40 jezzail team + 2 warp-cannon + 3-4 warlock engeeners +  4 clanrats blocks with ratling gun + some skaven slaves blocks (or something else form 100-200 points). Brrr-rrr. Excellent shooting army. And "fluffy" too. Empire only chance - skavens bad lucks on misfiring.
Empire is really hard army for the playing, with lot of tactics/strategy elements. Most of the other armies has not such hard choices.

[Atchman]

I'm a bit pesimistic    May be.
I became pessimistic after founding some tourment winner army list via Internet with realy specialized army.
Simple example -
Skaven - 30-40 jezzail team + 2 warp-cannon + 3-4 warlock engeeners +  4 clanrats blocks with ratling gun + some skaven slaves blocks (or something else form 100-200 points). Brrr-rrr. Excellent shooting army. And "fluffy" too. Empire only chance - skavens bad lucks on misfiring.
Empire is really hard army for the playing, with lot of tactics/strategy elements. Most of the other armies has not such hard choices.

The only defense against that army is speed!  All big blocks of knights, a stank and pray!  Terrain could mess it up some as well.  In a tournament if you have terrain to place, just build yourself a wall of terrain and hide behind it.  Had a dwarf player do it to me.  He used terrain to break up LOS, then hid behind the terrain pieces.  Really minimized his shooting losses.  

How about 4 mortars, 2 hellblasters, 7-8 handgunner units with Hochland Long Rifles, and max Heavens magic?  

Skaven by far are now the shootiest army in the game.  I did a thread over on the WPS about it and it ended up being like 8 pages worth of comments.

[Calimehter]

Follow up!

I managed to get a win the other day with this 2150 point version:

1 EC w/ Sword of Sigismund, VH Speculum, Full Plate, pistol, shield
1 Level 1 Wizard w/ 2 Dispel Scrolls

25 Greatswords - Banner of Arcane Warding, 2X5 Handgunner detach
25 Spearmen - 12 Swordsmen and 12 Halberdiers detach
25 Pikemen
15 Free Company (no command)
3 Ogres w/ great weapons
10 Handgunners
10 Crossbows
10 Archers
5 Huntsmen
2 Cannons
1 Mortar

I still probably don't have enough firepower, but against Khorne Chaos I was able to pick off the chariots with the cannons and weaken the Knights and Dragon Ogres with a bit of handgun/xbow fire.  I had enough infantry to use a "layered" defence with the detachments as detailed on this site's tactical articles and force the enemy into some nasty traps involving the Greatswords and Pikemen, while the Ogres and Archers held the flanks against the Furies and Gor (yes, a bit overmatched, but held out just long enough for the guns to fire and the infantry traps to close).

I would love to drop the Greatswords for a unit of Swordsmen (w/ Griffon banner) and another Mortar with that last special slot, but I'm worried that I will miss the respectable HTH and armour of the Greatswords too much . . .

[Atchman]

Though my greatswords don't ever kill anything, they are one of the best flank holding units in an Empire army.  You could however, take the unit size down and get a Griffon Standard for them!  My best luck with them is when they are lead by someone with the Icon of Magus.  I've been thinking about putting a BSB in the unit, giving the unit the Griffon Standard, and giving the BSB the Icon of Magnus and some sort of protection.  That way I still get stubborn re-rolls, but I don't autobreak for fear.  


I think your army has a nice flavor.  It looks like a mercenary army.  I have considered using a unit of Pikemen in my army.  I was thinking of flanking them with a nice unit of greatswords, and perhaps a small unit of flagellants just to keep them from getting charged in the flanks.  That would be a heck of a choice, should I charge the 25 pikemen or should I charge the greatswords (with detachments)  with a griffon standard, or perhaps that tarpit unit of flagellants?  You have a very excellent stand and defend army.  When I've taken armies like that to RT's though, I get whonked by the stupid scenario rules.  

Is VH Spec necessary on your EC?  Most folks in an army like yours just give him max protection for his leadership.

[Calimehter]

I've grown rather fond of the Sword/Speculum combo on the EC.  His combat abilities and the Sword's effective first-strike ability really help out the infantry lines, so its nice to be able to put him up front.  What the VH does is act as a 25-point "insurance policy" for him up front, making sure that he isn't getting kacked by some nasty character while he's helping the infantry out.

And what with Chaos and Undead being very popular both locally and at tournaments, its not like there's a lack of uber characters to choose from.  Heck, I swapped stats with a Chosen Chaos unit champion in that last fight because his stats were better than my ECs.  

I imagine that if I crunched the numbers enough, I would find that its a bit better to load up on the armour and ward saves . . . but my way still works most of the time, and its a lot more dramatic and heroic to deal with enemy characters by killing them than it is to curl up in a ball of armour/ward saves and cry "Not the face!" when confronted with anything nastier than your neighborhood elves.    

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I *am* a bit worried about scenarios that require me to move to the other end of the board.  My current plan if that happens is to simply load up one side with most of my infantry and push downfield, using my flankers and shooters to keep my flanks free of trouble.  M4 makes it tough, though, no question there, especially if I'm moving downfield because the enemy can outshoot me.  That's why I would love to squeeze that second mortar in somehow . . .

I guess even mercs can't have it all!

[shavixmir]

I play a shooty dwarf army:
1 cannon which for all intensive purposes can't misfire.
1 flame cannon (which causes panic tests)
10 thunderers (hand guns)
10 crossbow dwarves

And these are the shooters in my 1000 to 1500 army. When I play 2000 points, I add a gyrocopter (which wrecks havoc on T3 enemies) and another 10 thunderers.

The way to get by this army (and I really shouldn't be mentioning this) is to force the shooting in different directions. If you can manage to divert enough shooting away from the important units, they will get through.

A small example:

3 very fast units. 2 main units.
Move 2 very fast units up one flank, 1 very fast unit up the other. Move the main units up the centre.
The shooting will have to focus on the flanking units. If they don't you'll be able to move the fast units behind enemy lines by turn 2. They don't want that.
By turn 3 you'll have your main units in hand to hand.

The chances that the second very fast unit makes it to the enemies rear is quite high.

[Atchman]

I play a shooty dwarf army:
1 cannon which for all intensive purposes can't misfire.
1 flame cannon (which causes panic tests)
10 thunderers (hand guns)
10 crossbow dwarves

And these are the shooters in my 1000 to 1500 army. When I play 2000 points, I add a gyrocopter (which wrecks havoc on T3 enemies) and another 10 thunderers.

The way to get by this army (and I really shouldn't be mentioning this) is to force the shooting in different directions. If you can manage to divert enough shooting away from the important units, they will get through.

A small example:

3 very fast units. 2 main units.
Move 2 very fast units up one flank, 1 very fast unit up the other. Move the main units up the centre.
The shooting will have to focus on the flanking units. If they don't you'll be able to move the fast units behind enemy lines by turn 2. They don't want that.
By turn 3 you'll have your main units in hand to hand.

The chances that the second very fast unit makes it to the enemies rear is quite high.

I don't understand the point.  He easily has a much shooting as that Dwarf army.  His isn't as reliable, but he has a lot of shots.  

Personally, with the emphasis on speed anymore, I find most shooty armies don't have a chance.  They are just on you so danged quick.  Dwarves have it better because they can move and shoot with their handguns.  Why would a dwarf player ever take crossbows, when you can move and fire with handguns?  

His army is a nice balance because he has the troops to take the charge.  That is what most shooty armies lack.