Topic: Greetings everyone and a question about playing Bretonnians

[Vincent of Vega]

Hi folks,

Quite a few familiar names on this forum, brief introduction:
Been playing WHFB for a year and a half using an Empire force (gasp!)

Have had a tremendous run against the people who started playing the same time as me of 20+ games without a loss until last Friday when things came crashing down against a new General in our group who plays with Bretonnians.

Anyhow, enough blabbing from me.  Here's the problem.

Mainly I've played the undead and Chaos so the Bretonnians represented a different challenge and clearly one I haven't quite worked out how to deal with yet.

I posted a question on the WPS  boards which got some good answers which

FINALLY brings me to my question, based on Randys advice

The BSB rocks against Brettonians if you use a unit of Greatswords to hold the charge. My advice against them, though a little smelling of limburger, is to use the Greatswords, a Unit of Flagellants, and a big unit of spearmen. I would put the Banner of Sigsimund on the BSB in the unit of spearmen. In the Greatswords you put your Griffin Standard. Now you have Stubborn/griffon greatswords, stubborn well armed spearmen, and an unbreakable unit to hold the flanks. After all of that, you get re-rolls on your stubborn stuff! I think you then put your EC in the spearmen with the Sword of Sigismund to hack down whichever figure is in base-to-base with your BSB.

How many Greatsswords should I take and in what format , 4 wide , 5 wide?

Thanks in advance

Alex

[IH8Skaven]

Hey Vincent, glad to see you.  I always like reading your batreps.  

That is the best brick wall of a line that I think can be made by the Empire, which should work against chaos very well too.  Fear is really the only thing that can tumble it down, besides allocating and killing the BSB.  

As for your frontage question re: Greatswords, let me ask you this-- are you going to try to win the combat straight up, or just hold them until help arrives.  If you've got the points for 20 GS, and to add two detachments of 5 Free Company each, I would go 5 wide and try to win combat.  You can't flank Brets, so you don't need more than 5 in the detachment, AND you only need just one model from each detachment to survive for pursuit purposes.  Don't forget the GS's can't pursue since they are holding the Griffon Banner.  Here's a big one that might be up to debate.  In reading the Lance rules in the Annual, I interperet that the outer 'wings' of the lance will no longer be able to allocate on the parent unit since the detacment is in the way so to speak.  Since the detachment charged into the Knights wouldn't it be a case where those Knight(s) that can only allocate on the detachment will NOT benefit from charging with a lance and will only get their attacks at base strength.  I would read the Lance rules if I were you and see if you agree with me.  If the Bret player pewls over this with cries of cheddar, I would say, "it could be worse.  Any other army wouldn't have a rank bonus due to being flanked."  

BTW: I've played against Brets twice with my Empire.  Lost badly both times.  The blessing killed me.  The Greatswords and the flagellents did their jobs spectacularly.  (At one point the GS's held up 3 Lances AT ONCE, and never broke.  The Bret player had to kill them to the man to get loose.)  My Empire Knights ended up being no match for the Brets with their superior movement.  2" makes a world of difference.  Don't invest heavily into Knights if you know you are playing against Brets.  If you do take some, the Steel Standard might make for a wise buy.

[Vincent of Vega]

Thanks for your comments Ih8skaven, glad somebody my battle reports


When I started collecting an Empire army I couldn't wait to get hold of some Greatswords, in fact they are the models I bought when I took the children to Warhammer World. Sadly and probably through mistakes on my part I haven't had much luck with my Greatswords, so much so when I first read Randys advice I had to go up to the games 'shed' to retreive the Greatswords in order to finish painting them for Fridays game against Morgans Marauders ( the Bretonnians).  If the combination of the Greatswords, banner hold the charge then I would fancy their chances of dishing out some damage and even winning combat in the following rounds. You raise a crucial point about  a detachment countercharging the side of a Bretonnian lance, I'd like to hear what others have to say. It would make a huge difference if the affected Knights couldn't hit the unit they initially charged into.

In both battles against the Bretonnians so far I've taken a unit of 5 White Wolves and charged through the middle of the oncoming 'lances' and into the supporting troops with good effect. I do like the look of Randys ideas and intend to try it out on Friday. I won't bore you all with an army list but I'll try and take some notes and knock up a report.

Friday will be busy, our keen Bretonnian newcomer is taking on my sons Chaos army, probably Khorne and knowing my teenage son the army will more than likely feature a Bloodthirster, I think there are going to be a lot of fleeing Bretonnian archers by turn two.

Hopefully I'll be playing the cunning Count Syn tomorrow night, funny how I haven't missed taking loads of fear tests before getting stuck in.

[IH8Skaven]

Another trick against the Brets you may or may not considered...

To charge, the front model must have LOS in a Lance Formation.  A sneaky general can move a unit of cavalry in so that it's in front of one of the wings of the Lance.  They can't charge you because the front model can't see you, and they have to say 1" away from you since they are not charging you, AND they are march-blocked too!  Basically the Bret player is stuck trying to work his way loose.  Kind of like a car that's parallel parked too close to other cars.  If you're using Pistoliers, this is a very easy maneuver to accomplish.

IIRC you have to be a non-skirmisher and be US 5 to do this.  Other than that, the "make way peasents!" rule for the Brets kicks in and they push you out of the way.  This is covered in the Bretonnian article too.

[vitt]

I played vs Bret twice, first I winned, second was a draw. Both events showed, that Brets not a manuevered army, they have bad LoS, so it is their weak.
My first army was based on three units: STank (Sigmars Hammer), Elector on Griffon, Azarnil Dragon Lord. Also I has two cavalry units, Capitan on Pegasus and some more (dont remember).
My opponent cant catch me to charge whole game. He hase 2 main units: first was destroyed by STank's impact hits, second was attacked by Elector on back, cavalry (White wolves) on ... flank (I know that Brets have not flanks, but i do not know how it calls). Dragon killed all breton heroes. It was massacre.
Second army was magic: STank, Baltasar Gelt, 2 wizards (heaven), two cavalry units. Baltasar was annoyed one for my opponent, he said "it is a cheat"   . But i did some mistakes: lost STank, killed by Bret hero on Gippogrif, lost one cavalry unit, catching by bret charge and so on. Anyway it was a draw, cause Baltasar removed lances from bret's knights and annoyed them with magic missiles.
It was a good battle. Baltasar rocks. (cause Brets cant shoot   )

[Atchman]

Another trick against the Brets you may or may not considered...

To charge, the front model must have LOS in a Lance Formation.  A sneaky general can move a unit of cavalry in so that it's in front of one of the wings of the Lance.  They can't charge you because the front model can't see you, and they have to say 1" away from you since they are not charging you, AND they are march-blocked too!  Basically the Bret player is stuck trying to work his way loose.  Kind of like a car that's parallel parked too close to other cars.  If you're using Pistoliers, this is a very easy maneuver to accomplish.

IIRC you have to be a non-skirmisher and be US 5 to do this.  Other than that, the "make way peasents!" rule for the Brets kicks in and they push you out of the way.  This is covered in the Bretonnian article too.

You must be an evil, evil man to do that to some poor Brettonian player

[Albrecht von Hinkel]

In War and Luv everything is allowed

[squig87]

I agree with your point about counter-charging the Bretonian knights. In normal circumstances the detachment would strike first as it is them who were the last people to charge in. Lances do not give +2 strength for being charged and so i beleive that the detachments should only be struck at base strength.

[Vincent of Vega]

I've just put up some pictures of the Battle I had against the Bretonnians which ended in a very hard fought draw. (almost a minor victory for the Bretonnians)


Pictures here:
http://www.abfabvincent.clara.net/warhammer/battlereports/game45/game45.html

Pivotal moment when his Duke on a Hippogrif charged my uber unit of 30 spearmen, a Lord and a battle standard bearer, they failed their terror test and fled off the table. Bye bye 580 points.


Regards
Alex

[Atchman]

I've just put up some pictures of the Battle I had against the Bretonnians which ended in a very hard fought draw. (almost a minor victory for the Bretonnians)


Pictures here:
http://www.abfabvincent.clara.net/warhammer/battlereports/game45/game45.html

Pivotal moment when his Duke on a Hippogrif charged my uber unit of 30 spearmen, a Lord and a battle standard bearer, they failed their terror test and fled off the table. Bye bye 580 points.


Regards
Alex

Great looking battle!  With that many points in one unit, the only suggestion I have is the Icon of Magnus.  Why?  Units that cause terror only cause fear versus the Icon, so you wouldn't have fled.  Hit on 6s but you should still have won on CR.  

I hate Brettonians.  There is no strategy to playing them at all.  My buddy Carl plays them.  He took my suggestion and put a character in every lance.  They just eat you alive!  Got to take out the Banner of the Lady.  It is worse than a Griffon Standard, because the unit carrying it is so much more moblie.

[IH8Skaven]

You must be an evil, evil man to do that to some poor Brettonian player

No No.  The Bret player is also a Khorne player.  If he thinks anything is evil, it's how I treat his poor Khorne-nuts.  (I'll say it once again, if you haven't read Jewell's article on detachments, do it.  Especially if chaos is beating you.  90% of the way I beat chaos is coincidentaly covered right in that article.  It's all about the positioning of the troops!)

In fact, he's decided to shelve his Brets until the book comes out.  He muttered something about how I present no challenge to his army, and he's grown weary of kicking around my poor Empire.  All's I have to say is that I get so raped by the blessing.  He's lucky I have to face at-least two other armies with the same list that day, or I'd tool him up and fix him real good!  

Love the pics Vince!

EDIT: I do have to add this it's such a great story.  It's true that the Brets stomp me in the ground, but one game I did have a moral victory.

A lowly Captain on a Pegasus w/Lance rear-charged an entire lance formation all by his lonesome. (Yes, the game was so far gone that I had gotten that desperate.)  The Captain and peggy went on to drop FOUR Knights, and actually win combat by 1!  He then rolled an 11 and broke, and I chased him down!   Sure, it was the only lance of his that I destroyed all game, but hey we've all got to find our silver linings.  

[Atchman]

What rapes us is no flanks for our countercharges to hit.  We are now just lowly crap average infantry with no chance against a knight charge.  Even the checkerboard formation is not that great because of no flanks.  

They are a great army to take a griffon against.  They don't have any shooting, most of them don't use any magic because they aren't that vulnerable to magic because of the speed thing.  

Pistoliers are great because you can manuever behind their lances and give them a good rear charge.  

Pegasus rider is almost essential.  March blocking so that you might actually overcome the blessing.  The blessing and no flanks make for an army designed to kick Empire butt.  

Sometimes when I bring shooting and have to play them, I place my handgunners only 6" from the table edge, sometimes 5.  If they charge, they will either go off the table or are in such a wierd postion they for certain can't charge on the next turn.  If they go off you can postion a unit to charge them when they come back on, or use Mr.  IH8Skaven's trick with the lance formation.  Imagine that trick while pinned to a table edge!  

Magic isn't that great because they close so fast.  A Hellblaster is still great because you might get lucky and get to shoot it at a key moment.  I had one eliminate 12 knights in one shot, leaving only the sorceress and the BSB.

[theharangue]

In regards to the "blind spot" of lances, I thought this might crack you up.

While I did this with raised zombies, you could probably pull it off with detachments.

Some generals are smart enough to support their lances, but many are so in love with the lance rules they will let them get a little isolated.

Anyhow, I raised two units of zombies, one on either side of a lance.  I positioned them at angles aligned to the lance, exactly 1" away on either side, and out of the line of sight of the head of the lance.

Because of the 1" rule he actually had to start moving the lance backwards.  I just kept him "locked" with zombies for three turns.  

He was sooo pissed.  

-Joseph

[Vincent of Vega]

I forgot to mention one of my frequent 'tactics' in the deployment stage is to try and ensure that the enemy, whether they are Bretonnians or not, have their deployment zone hampered by some scenery. So, that they either have to commit to deploying most if not all on one side of the table which then obviously means I deploy diagonally opposite to buy me as much time as possible. Or, if they do split up their forces it usually means that their charge is not quite as uniform as they would like. Ie. one Lance formation or more is going to be getting into combat quicker than the others, and for obvious reasons, this is a good thing for an Empire General.

However, while using the WPS rules for placing scenery I picked a village of 3 houses and put it in the middle of his deployment zone only to have it scatter to the middle square, threw a 6 and then have it removed!  Allowing the Bretonnian general a completely free deployment zone, as you can see in the pictures.

Still, it's fun learning.

..
Alex

aka Vincent of Vega

[Atchman]

In regards to the "blind spot" of lances, I thought this might crack you up.

While I did this with raised zombies, you could probably pull it off with detachments.

Some generals are smart enough to support their lances, but many are so in love with the lance rules they will let them get a little isolated.

Anyhow, I raised two units of zombies, one on either side of a lance.  I positioned them at angles aligned to the lance, exactly 1" away on either side, and out of the line of sight of the head of the lance.

Because of the 1" rule he actually had to start moving the lance backwards.  I just kept him "locked" with zombies for three turns.  

He was sooo pissed.  

-Joseph

Um why don't the Brettonian players ever just think about changing formation?  Pretty stoopid to get trapped when you can just change formation and move away.

[Albrecht von Hinkel]

They can't because they reform around their leader, so there is no room for it if you have gotten close enough.