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Author Topic: New Greatswords  (Read 27984 times)

Offline ZehKaiser

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New Greatswords
« on: May 12, 2009, 07:43:15 PM »
If you already own them you're in luck. If you're a new player reading this and don't own any yet, then this thread might be pointless for next edition since people won't be buying the models!  :icon_lol:

But seriouly, these guys were great when the book came out, but from HE and beyond I think they deserve a boost. They aren't quite living up to what the newer books get for their points. Don't get me wrong they're almost there, but they need a bit of a tweak. They compete for the ever coveted empire special slots, that alone is a big strike against them.

My suggested fix so far is them getting a 50 point magic banner option without a points increase for it. I think everyone can agree on that.  (also griffon banner going back to 50 points, but that's a topic for a different thread)

I'm not sure what else to give them to both keep their character and also make them a bit better without putting them over the top.  I don't think they are in line for a price change, maybe 1 point less max. Maybe something like base S4, or re-roll panic due to their grizzled vet status and discipline...

Just brainstorming here. Any other ideas?
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Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2009, 09:52:36 PM »
Empire general makes 1 unit core/2000 pts ?
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Offline fauthsie

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2009, 10:08:36 PM »
Some ideas

Maybe give them a bodyguard style rule where they gain immune to fear and terror if the general is in the unit...

Allow them to confer their leadership onto friendly units within 6 inchs... These guys are the elite of the elite in the imperial military they would inspire other troops to hold fast....
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2009, 10:45:10 PM »
A potential option could be to give the Greatsword rule "Zweihanders." Due to the swords being of such exceptional length (the blades being about 6 feet long each), they ignore ASF when charging. Alternatively, giving them S4 or A2 would be nice.

Offline t12161991

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2009, 10:55:28 PM »
S4 is a bit much. As is A2.

That said, I can't think of anything not seemingly overpowered.

Units within 6" reroll failed panic tests as they are inspired by the greatswords display of bravery (blatantly ripped off the Longbeard rules).
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Offline Grutch

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2009, 01:37:19 AM »
I'll probably make a post of my own on this one but my proposal is to make Greatswords into SKIRMISHERS!  I mean lets get to the point of what the greatswords are and that's a nasty unit of colorful whirling steel and death.  Skirmishing greatswords cannot take detachments nor magic banners.

on the note of Greatswords, it should have been a hands down decision that the General of the Empire should be allowed to designate one unit of greatswords as core.  If the VC can have skirmishing Ghouls, we can have skirmishing Greatswords.  Elf swordsmasters fight in ranks because they're so skilled with their greatweapons they have learned not to lop one another's heads off in tight formation. 

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Offline t12161991

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2009, 01:40:39 AM »
True enough, Zweihanders were not line troops in the same way pikes were. Shock troops, suicidal almost.
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2009, 03:27:41 AM »
I'll probably make a post of my own on this one but my proposal is to make Greatswords into SKIRMISHERS!  I mean lets get to the point of what the greatswords are and that's a nasty unit of colorful whirling steel and death.  Skirmishing greatswords cannot take detachments nor magic banners.

on the note of Greatswords, it should have been a hands down decision that the General of the Empire should be allowed to designate one unit of greatswords as core.  If the VC can have skirmishing Ghouls, we can have skirmishing Greatswords.  Elf swordsmasters fight in ranks because they're so skilled with their greatweapons they have learned not to lop one another's heads off in tight formation. 

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Offline Warlord

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2009, 04:00:26 AM »
Unfortunately, the new Ghouls in 7th ed cannot skirmish (though that is absolutely stupid IMO).

The Magic Banner option is appropriate, as is the General allowing 1 unit as Core.

I think the problem with Greatswords isn't so much with them, as it is with the other army books...
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2009, 05:15:30 AM »
Perhaps we should contribute two entries each....one if the next edition warhammer goes back to the 6th edition days (better balanced and less uber units).

I would like something like this:

Verloorn Hope - Greatswords are used to break up formations throwing themselves into the weapons of enemies crushing through the ranks. Greatswords remove the rank bonus of units charged by them and the unit canīt use the hand weapon shield bonus. The Unit receives one hit at base S of the enemy models.

S 6 with great weapons should be no Problem in any case nearly every other comparable elite unit has S 4 in the profile and as White Lions, Executioners, all dwarven Elite, loads of orc units etc have S 4 that should be fine.


Offline Bunkka-pop

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2009, 07:31:03 AM »
Verloorn Hope - Greatswords are used to break up formations throwing themselves into the weapons of enemies crushing through the ranks. Greatswords remove the rank bonus of units charged by them and the unit canīt use the hand weapon shield bonus. The Unit receives one hit at base S of the enemy models.

And just combine this with skirmishing... Cool. Allthough with this rule the GS would be like most cavalry, "break enemy in charge or get eaten"
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2009, 10:18:11 AM »
Yes except that they would retain their CR as they are still infantry and can be used in large blocks as 20 perhaps even grant them immune to fear as a verloorn hope company ....hmm well perhaps make this a special if the general enters the unit.

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2009, 02:47:22 PM »

I think the problem with Greatswords isn't so much with them, as it is with the other army books...

I'm gonna have to side with Warlord here; I think our army is nearly perfectly balanced.  It's the others that need to be brought into line.

I just can't see any changes to the greatswords THEMSELVES that wouldn't be overpowered.  Maybe skirmishers, but that's a maybe.  I do agree that GoTE should make one core, especially since nobody EVER seems to use his ancestral heirloom ability anyway since our banners are a joke.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2009, 07:38:51 PM »
Well perhaps grant the empire overall an immune to psych or immune to fear/terror banner

Banner of the demonslayer 50 points the unit causes fear....bajinnnng I would get it once in a while. Almoust every army of late has a mount that causes fear for the hero which would grant immune to fear for the unit the character accompanies and to be immune to fear AND be stubborn is just great.

Offline commandant

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2009, 10:08:51 AM »
Because of the Fluff I quite like the idea of onlyt allowing one unit of Greatswords and then only if you have an GOTH.   I see no reall reason to change them, though if they are the best of the best maybe they should be raised to WS5.   I donno though because our captains are only WS5.   But that is the only change I would make.
That said I understand that we need heavy infantry and I would interduce them as a core choice in the form of dismounted knights with the following stats

M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 I3 A1 L8  8points
Full plate, greatweapon, handweapon

May exchange greatweapon for hand weapon + shield (free)
May exchange great weapon for two handweapons (free)

Offline MiB

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 10:24:05 AM »
They need to be able to take banners without a GoTE around, let them take the Warbanner at the very least

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2009, 08:34:08 PM »
Or reduce them to 8 points a pop and leave them how they are cheap cannonfodder with 1 A S 5

Offline Ganymede

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2009, 11:09:58 PM »
How about initiative four?

Offline patsy02

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2009, 03:51:34 PM »
... with greatweapons?
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2009, 05:03:30 PM »
Yeah you could always strike with your hand weapon....


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Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2009, 09:31:56 PM »
Yeah you could always strike with your hand weapon....


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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2009, 07:38:52 AM »
 :biggriin:

They are a special choice and should be special and right now I never use them because they canīt compete with other special choices and even worse they canīt compare even with our core choices.

With so many fear causers and fast, uber killer units I donīt see any use for them.

Offline Zub

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2009, 10:53:17 AM »
This would seem to you quite odd, but I would give greatswords ASF. Why? Two handed sword is not some sow big smashy thing like two handed hammer or axe (usually about 110 cm long when wielded by a regular men) used by other races (they have S4 and so they can carry a smashy heavy thing to final S6). Two handed sword is lighter and much longer (about 140 or 150 cm long), we poor humans have only S3, so we cannot afford massive arms of mass destruction to final S6, but we have lighter and longer tools.
I do historical fancing and anybody who does so could tell you, that if you are facing a guy with a two handed sword and you have anything else (shield and sword, two swors . . .) he always gets the first attack (or atacks) thanks to superior reach of his weapon.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2009, 04:45:08 PM »
Well ....another ASF will lead some guys to go on a killing spree, also a spear is still longer than a two handed sword therefore spear units would cry like hush babies.

Offline Zub

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2009, 06:03:02 PM »
In real fight, you are mostly in advantage with a two handed sword against a spear . . .
But it will be maybe better to just give them no penalty for GW and I4.
It would be nice if they had A2, but I think it will be odd. I think that no infantry or cavalery unit should have more than A1 (not counting, additional weapons, frenzi . . .). The simple fact that some chaos or WC stupidities have A2 and still have weapon options (and frenzi) is bad and spoils the game. That should be left for monsters and such things.