Topic: Imperial Knights.

[Gorthac]

Cavalry hammer should still be an option. They should've just made it hit like a great weapon (last). +2 str on charge and strike first, but after that just like normal great weapon. Far from overpowering as you lose some armor save & you'll be paying for the weapon, 2 or 4 points per model imo.

And no, outriders can't move and shoot. But they are better than handgunners (if you can spare that special slot) because they take 125mm frontage to fire as effectively as 300mm frontage of handgunners + they can move FAST in and out of danger if need be. Their mobility and small size is what makes them vastly superior to handgunners. And you shouldn't dismiss the 5+ save either!
90% of my armies wield both outriders and pistoliers.

[Lord Etharion]

I might also remove the 0-1 limitation on inner circle knights, I mean really as if there weren't more than one solitary squad of inner circle knights in an order, BAH.   

There is no such limit.

[der Hurenwiebel]

I might also remove the 0-1 limitation on inner circle knights, I mean really as if there weren't more than one solitary squad of inner circle knights in an order, BAH.   

There is no such limit.

Really? if so, then good that's something that changed for the better between 6th and 7th.  I honestly thought we still had the restriction from back in 6th ed.

[Hurin Thalion]

You may upgrade any unit of Knights to be Inner Circle Knights at a cost of +3 points per model.

Yep, it's true. I'd misread that section at least half a dozen times until I checked it just now!

As a Middenheim player, I like the idea of Knights of the White Wolf (or Ulrican Templars in general) getting the cav. hammer boost back. Mounted great weapons just suck now. If I didn't have a couple units of KotWW already built I'd only take Knights Panther!

[iatroblast]

You may upgrade any unit of Knights to be Inner Circle Knights at a cost of +3 points per model.

Yep, it's true. I'd misread that section at least half a dozen times until I checked it just now!

I might also remove the 0-1 limitation on inner circle knights...

There is no such limit.

Really? ...I honestly thought we still had the restriction from back in 6th ed.

OMG!! I hadn't noticed that either!! Two IC units? I'm soo happy!......

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Inner Circle Knights of the White Wolf are strength 5 at all times.

That's pretty good.

[Hurin Thalion]

Inner Circle Knights of the White Wolf are strength 5 at all times.

That's pretty good.

Yep, and ALWAYS strike last unless charging, only 2+ save, etc etc...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Only 2+? That's just about every other Cavalry unit in the game.

Pity the poor Questing Knights. Only ever strength 4, still striking last, and a 3+ save.

[cisse]

Only 2+? That's just about every other Cavalry unit in the game.

Most get other bonuses or have a much better statline. I'm not pitying them.

Pity the poor Questing Knights. Only ever strength 4, still striking last, and a 3+ save.
[/quote]
Well, okay, except these guys perhaps. That said, they're not bad: lance formation, blessing of the lady, 8" move, questing vow. They're just bad compared with the other Bret cav choices.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Knights of the White Wolf aren't bad, a 2+ save against normal infantry (strength 3) is no different to a 1+ save. Strength 4/5 is much better in protracted combats such as would occur against Undead.

They are also reasonably cheap compared to other cavalry. Questing Knights (sorry didn't read my book carefully, they are strength 5 like inner circle White Wolves) who have the 2+ save against shooting but only 3+ in combat are 28 points a model. White Wolves are 23 or 26 points. They do get a free champion though.

I'm not saying White Wolves are the epitome of knighthood. In general the normal Knights are better because they hit harder on the turn you charge (where cavalry normally decide their combat) but the normal units do suffer if they get locked in against a unit that doesn't break. If the White Wolves had cavalry hammers as they used to then they would definitely be better than the conventional units. +2 strength when you charge (just like a lance) but +1 thereafter is worth the drop from a 1+ to 2+ armour save. As it is I am planning to add Knights of the White Wolf to my army.

[Hurin Thalion]

Questing Knights also re-roll failed Psychology tests, move an extra inch and have 1 more Initiative (only really useful against units like Greatswords I guess...)

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Granted, but they are Bretonnian elites whereas KotWW are only one of our possible special choices.

[Derek Contyre]

In regards to the PistolKorps, these I think I read somewhere are funded by the emperor for young nobles wishing to neter a knightly order.
The noble pays for all his stuff then after he gains experience can choose to become a knight, an outrider or simply leave.

I agree with bringing back the cavalry hammer, it was such a cool way of distinguishing knights. The Great weapons that GW gave them sucked.

I reckon give the empire another unit of Cavalry, a mix of fast and medium cavalry.
Like this:
Road warden/Reiter/mounted sergeants/some other name.
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD7 10pts or something like that.
hand weapon.
options: shield 1pt, light armour 2pts(does not count as fast cav) spear1pt, pistol 2pts.
special rules:
fast cavalry.

Or even a unit horsemen(regular men stats) but with light armour, pistols and spears?

I apologise to whoever wrote something about the reiters for core I haven't read it yet

[iatroblast]

Inner Circle Knights of the White Wolf are strength 5 at all times.

That's pretty good.

Yep, and ALWAYS strike last unless charging, only 2+ save, etc etc...

Think it this way-
You messed things up and you get charged!!
IF you survive....... You can still strike as hard as a lance would! Not too bad....

[Dracos]

And these are the arguements that ensue when one wants to enforce fluff upon the rules that effect actual game play

I like the ideal of somehow making the Empire Knights unique. While I'm fine with the Knights as they are, with the current changes to other armies heavy cavalry, someting that makes our Empire Knights stand out would be nice.

Brettonians and Empire are both human armies and it makes some sense they both have developed armies of heavily armoured men on horseback as a "low" tech counter to the non-human races and their (mostly) superior base statlines. Ergo Knights as Core are just fine. Afterall not everyone wants to play with hordes of infantry and shouldn't be forces to. Remember you could build a 3000 pt army just on part of the Knights Panther alone - some of it's got to be core.

Inner Circle as they are are fairly lame for a "Special" choice. Sigmar forbid you make them Rare. Fact is I use them because I'm not a fan of Greatswords or Pistoliers and more than 2 Great Cannons tweaks even a Tournament players conscious. I'm not against a Rare Knight unit but he better be bringing alot more to the table than +1 str for me to give up my Helblaster (or occassional STank )

I know some folks think thegame should reflect the fluff, but if I want a good story I'll buy a novel. If I want a good game I'll go with a game system that allows me to play a good balanced competitive game that allows me frredom to choose how I want to play. Of all the armies GW puts out Empire is the one army that gives you almost every possible combination of ways to play an army with never being considered overpowered.

Knights should stay pretty much as is with minor tweaking (for flavor)

[MagicJuggler]

In regards to the PistolKorps, these I think I read somewhere are funded by the emperor for young nobles wishing to neter a knightly order.
The noble pays for all his stuff then after he gains experience can choose to become a knight, an outrider or simply leave.

I agree with bringing back the cavalry hammer, it was such a cool way of distinguishing knights. The Great weapons that GW gave them sucked.

I reckon give the empire another unit of Cavalry, a mix of fast and medium cavalry.
Like this:
Road warden/Reiter/mounted sergeants/some other name.
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD7 10pts or something like that.
hand weapon.
options: shield 1pt, light armour 2pts(does not count as fast cav) spear1pt, pistol 2pts.
special rules:
fast cavalry.

Or even a unit horsemen(regular men stats) but with light armour, pistols and spears?

I apologise to whoever wrote something about the reiters for core I haven't read it yet

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=28827.0

Here you are.

[Derek Contyre]

Lol thanks g=but I read it months ago 

Unless there is another. . . s.s . .ky. . walker.