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Author Topic: New Greatswords  (Read 27981 times)

Offline Shadoweyed

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2009, 06:45:22 PM »
Anyone think of allowing Greatswords to take Greatsword detatchments or make their detatchments stubborn? That teamed with a General making one unit Core could be a hit home.

Just another idea to throw in the mix.
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Offline Inarticulate

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2009, 06:55:57 PM »
In real fight, you are mostly in advantage with a two handed sword against a spear . . .

I have to disagree with that, unit to unit, spearmen would have the advantage against a sword regiment in the real world (if there is such a thing).
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2009, 07:00:29 PM »
In real fight, you are mostly in advantage with a two handed sword against a spear . . .

I have to disagree with that, unit to unit, spearmen would have the advantage against a sword regiment in the real world (if there is such a thing).

Very much so, in the real world, so to speak, one use greatswords were put to was to disrupt spear/pike formations, but simply hacking the heads off the pikes or spears

But ultimately a unit of pole-weapon equiped troops was always at the advantage due to flexibility and the ammount of sheer power that can be brought to bear.
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Offline redflag

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2009, 04:34:01 AM »
How about Greatswords being toughness 4.

Offline scarletsquig

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2009, 09:49:44 AM »
skirmishers/ immune to fear would be a pretty neat combination to have as a  variant "linebreaker" greatsword unit, similar to the huntsman upgrade for archers.

Maybe 12 points/ model.

Offline Zalminen

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2009, 07:19:02 PM »
Hmm, making greatswords skirmishers would actually make them interesting enough to give them a spot in my army :smile2:

Currently I find it too hard to visualize them fighting in formation. Or actually I can visualize it...
"Okay, has anyone seen my left ear? Did you check under that orc? No, this is not mine... Dammit Marcus, next time be a little more careful with that sword of yours!"  :roll:

Offline Count Stephano

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2009, 10:25:38 PM »
Greatswords are fine. Only problem I have with them (using 2 blocks of 20) is fear... Which is far too overpowered. GW overused fear in some armys like demons and undead. It is truly unbelievable why skeletons or zombies and the likes cause fear. I would rather fight a skeleton then a warrior of chaos...

I hate it when I need to roll snake eyes with my stubborn GS just because there are more skeletons... well duh...

Greatswords should be immune to fear.

Perhaps a point drop but iam not sure on that. They seem quite ok except the fear thing.
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Offline EngineerX

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2009, 03:16:23 AM »
Greatswords are such a cornerstone to any Empire army. In the current edition, Greatswords have good armor (full plate 4+) and are stubborn. Two very attractive pieces
for this unit. However, being GREATswords I have always felt that they should have the Killing Blow rule. Being humans, 2 attacks or toughness 4 for anything less than a Hero or Lord choice would be overpowered. Opinions on this? Thanks.
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Offline Warlord

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Re:
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2009, 04:01:56 AM »
Killing blow is a good solution in my opinion. They are skilled swordsmen afterall. Dont forget the banner!
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Offline EngineerX

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2009, 04:42:05 AM »
To comment on the initial post, I completely agree that as far as elite infantry goes, Greatswords were underpowered (in my opinion). Compared to, let's say Black Guard for DE. These guys have it all! And for only 13 pts. per model!
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2009, 06:19:36 AM »
I would go for an a la carte menu of all of the above.  So that a player could buy the skirmishing forlorn hope skill for his troops or the main unit could exchange their larger ungainly parade zweihanders for more practical blades that strike at +1 on initiative (halberds) Have inner circle great swords as another option with a bump to their S+1

and make it so that only GS parent unit's can take GS detachments easy.

skirmishing/forlorn hope +2 pts (I would tie them together)
halberds - free
inner circle +1 s  +1 pt
KB +1 or 2 pts

in theory a greatsword could be bought with all upgrades for 15 points ws4 S5 (adj) fight on initiative and with KB

not bad
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Warlord

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Re:
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2009, 06:42:59 AM »
So for 3 more points than a bloodletter, we get......... Hmmm
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Offline EngineerX

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2009, 07:53:41 PM »
It would be great if Empire had more than ONE choice for an elite foot infantry unit. Bringing back the old Reiksguard foot knights would be great, and allow them to have a variety of upgrade options.
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Offline Inarticulate

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2009, 07:55:28 PM »
It would be great if Empire had more than ONE choice for an elite foot infantry unit. Bringing back the old Reiksguard foot knights would be great, and allow them to have a variety of upgrade options.

I smell the Foot Knight/Full Plat Swordsmen topic.
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Offline username

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2009, 07:29:19 AM »
i agree that if a general is taken in their unit then they should be immune to psychology, that would make them immediatly more useful.
I also like the skirmishing option, but they should have that be an option, not a standard.
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Offline Boldrick

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2009, 05:45:42 PM »
I would say include foot reiksguard who are basicly GSs with HW&S and give greatswords skirmish and killing blow
This way we get 2 elite infantry units
One to form a solid core with some swordsmen and make a nice place for a general
And one to run about taking heads off

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2009, 09:42:21 AM »
Give them shields and the option to fight with their great swords one handed with +1 strength or two handed at +2 strength. Ignore penalties for fighting with great weapons, that is they fight in initiative order and bump their initiative up to 4.

Yes they're uber swordsmen, but then they should be uber swordsmen.

0-1 unit as core if you take Karl Franz or an Elector Count (General of the Empire).

I suppose some sort of bodyguard rule where they're immune to fear, terror and panic so long as they're escorting the army General would be nice too, although I think stubborn is supposed to represent that.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2009, 07:11:21 AM »
Nah, a la carte thats 16 variations of an elite infantry without taking into account equipment options.  Part of the art of war is confusing and befuddling your opponent so options for the "simple" army's generals to try to double guess about you are a good thing. 

For example if your enemy has decided in his head that your unit of vanilla gs's is fully equipped and supported and changes his tactics to go after instead your helblaster because that seems to be a more survivable frontal attack, you have succeeded as a general.   

The best things in life for a table top general are the, drop removals,  forehead slaps and self recriminations of his opponents.  Oh yeah, and the favour of the dice gods.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline kermitthefrog3

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2009, 01:15:23 AM »
What about adding a rule:

To the Last man!: Greatswords are reknown for their Resilience when confronted with terrors and abhorations that would send other men running.

Greatswords never automatically break from combat by being outnumbered by a fear or terror causing enemy. They also do not have to take terror checks. However, they are still not immune to fear or terror and must take either test when charged or charging enemies of this type, suffering all ussual consequences when failing these tests (not being able to charge or hitting on 6's).


Mabye its a bit too good, but it definately makes them more viable.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2009, 03:54:32 AM »
simplify it to be that they never autobreak for any reason.  This way they have to be broken by an actual die roll against their stubborness.  not easy to do.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2009, 04:37:06 AM »
So super easy. Make them immune to psychology.

Immune to psychology and stubborn. I think that would make them worth their points. It's almost justifiable from their fluff too. They take vows to stand their ground no matter what stands against them.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2009, 05:15:07 AM »
ya know on second thought the complete immunity to psyche sits more right with the forlorn hope type of troop than the formed unit of professionals who might look forward to spending their paycheck later on.  I'd be inclined for that reason to tie the immunity to fear etc. to the forlorn hope rule than just any old GS's.

This can also cause your enemy to second guess his tactics, facing you with uncertainty.  Which is ultimately a good thing.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline ROMPologist

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2009, 11:27:00 AM »
Would making them str 4 and make them weild Zweihanders(count as halberds, make them AP if Gswords need a buff) make them overpowered, they are the same as always but strike at initiative^^

Offline Boldrick

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2009, 11:44:59 AM »
Would making them str 4 and make them weild Zweihanders(count as halberds, make them AP if Gswords need a buff) make them overpowered, they are the same as always but strike at initiative^^
It would be great :happy:

Offline iatroblast

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2009, 10:46:26 PM »
In my opinion Greatswords are fine as they are. Giving them basic strength 4 is way too much... as well as giving them shields (Reiksguard foot knights)...
Chaos Warriors are influenced by the Chaos Power! Evil entities summoning troops to 'spread their dark will'... Well... You expect remarkable strength and endurance (toughness and high armour-save that is!)  from these troops! Greatswords are heroic figures giving their best selves in the battlefields...but still, they're only humans :oops: For this reason, I like the idea of fathsie, 'confering their leadership to other units within 6 inches'. 'Other units inspired by their presence' is a good explanation (even though it's similar to the 'detachments use their parent's unit leadership' rule)
I'd suggest that upgrading only one greatsword unit to 'Carrorburg Greatswords' (for e.g.) giving them +1S and counts as a rare choice instead, would be a fair rule too..

Finally, I don't like the idea for Greatswords to be skirmishers...just think it this way:
On the battlefield the courage is constantly tested. Man has to overcome the fear of death (not as easy task as it sounds :laugh:) and in order to push yourself fighting on even against impossible odds, you need to rely on your comrade. And that's what greatswords are all about: Companionship overcoming the terror of loss..
On the other hand, to achieve this, you need strictly military discipline and constant train! Greatswords are the absolute achievement and feature that state troops can display and the true pride for any professional army!! You expect from such a unit to follow pure military attitude! And what's the best way to do this but holding your ranks when moving and marching? (Can you imagine a world were Greatswords are 'skirmishers', while Evil Chaos Warriors and Goblins move in ranks like a disciplined army?! :-P :roll:)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 11:54:33 PM by iatroblast »