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Author Topic: New Greatswords  (Read 27985 times)

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2009, 04:18:26 AM »
Finally, I don't like the idea for Greatswords to be skirmishers...just think it this way:
On the battlefield the courage is constantly tested. Man has to overcome the fear of death (not as easy task as it sounds :laugh:) and in order to push yourself fighting on even against impossible odds, you need to rely on your comrade. And that's what greatswords are all about: Companionship overcoming the terror of loss..

Yes, but a greatsword requires tremendous range of motion; you'd be hard pressed to utilize a greatsword worth a damn in such tight blocks.

Can you imagine a world were Greatswords are 'skirmishers'?

Yes.  It's called the Real World, circa the 17th century or so.  Our army is based off the real-world Landsknecht armies, where two-handed swords were practically their trademark.  Greatswords WERE skirmishers that rushed pike units, and broke the heads off so the army's regulars would not be impaled during charges (this is also why pikes later started bringing handgunners with them, to shoot greatswords).  So, technically, skirmishing greatswords would be historically accurate.

I understand that the idea behind fantasy is both to suspend disbelief and have fun, and that the nature of fantasy is that things are not the same as the real world.  In the Empire, greatswords are the solid defensive blocks, not skirmishers against pikes, and so I am fine with them never gaining skirmish (I understand the difference it makes in their 'feel' and fluff).  The fact is, combat is a matter of tactics, and evolving to beat the enemy.  Greatswords could easily be skirmishers (or hell, even scouts!) if that evolution made sense compared to their enemies.  Whether it DOES or not (or is balanced or not) is a question for the developers, not I.

As for changes to them, I think they're one of the best balanced units in the game  I think using them and state troops as a template for all armies would be an excellent way to bring the game back into line.  Say "here's the empire state troop, that's a baseline core unit," and build other cores around it, comparing cost and stats to keep it balanced, then do the same with greatswords and special.

Pity we don't have a rare unit that isn't artillery of some kind, or we could have a baseline unit for every slot against which all others could be compared!
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2009, 07:14:27 AM »
I've got to agree toro.  Iatroblast, military discipline has nothing to do with whether or not a troop stays in ranks and files, take a look at our current world soldiers for one example.  In essence a modern soldier is a skirmisher and yet they all have a sense of battlefield discipline arguably better than their rank and file predecessors.

S4 is way too much huh?  Well I guess we better summon the inquisition to investigate those inner circle knights because they can't possibly be human with their profile. 

Toughness also is not purely an indicator of a model's physical resilience.  It is a part of a mathematical equation stating how hard it is to damage a given profile.  In otherwords it can represent anything from armour, rubbery skin, stone, wood, deft evasion, active use of a shield, etc.  Balancing the factors of toughness, ward save, armour save and multiple wounds is just what we are all haggling about.  Afterall a GotE is also just a man with the same amount of blood in his veins as a great swordsman or even halberdier, why does he have a higher toughness or multiple wounds. 
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline cisse

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2009, 07:22:56 AM »
In my opinion Greatswords are fine as they are. Giving them basic strength 4 is way too much... as well as giving them shields (Reiksguard foot knights)...
I agree to a certain extent, we don't need a super-powerful unit. However, we deserve a unit that's worth the points. Compared to most elite infantry, greatswords are definitely getting the short end of the stick. Yes they have good staying power thanks to stubborn and full plate, but not as good as many other units. And they hit a little harder than our state troopers thanks to their great weapons, but still not that hard. If they'd specialize in either defensive or offensive capabilities they'd probablbe more efficient, but that's not the case.
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Offline iatroblast

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2009, 08:10:39 PM »
Quote
Yes.  It's called the Real World-
Real World... has Goblins?  ! :laugh: :icon_razz:
Quote
...Greatswords WERE skirmishers that rushed pike units, and broke the heads off so the army's regulars would not be impaled during charges...
It's obvious that I wasn't aware of that  :cry: And I think that they should -somehow- resemble this in the game.
Quote
...military discipline has nothing to do with whether or not a troop stays in ranks and files, take a look at our current world soldiers for one example...
Those were different times and I insist(!) that I can't imagine a military unit marching to war without holding it's ranks. Though you do have a point: modern soldiers do have military discipline as well (if not more!)

Well, I like to think of an Imperial army with strict discipline, consisting of units that hold their ranks and files. But, maybe making Greatswords skirmishers, wouldn't change the general attitude (military feeling) of the army. After all, there are a lot of other troops who can do that (swordsmen, halberdiers...).
The only problem, would be that we would have to reconsider which units should hold their formation when marching (for e.g 'flagellants', 'Chaos Warrios', 'Skaven', 'Goblins' etc. )

Quote
...If they'd specialize in either defensive or offensive capabilities they'd probablbe more efficient...
Good thought
In my opinion they should be offensive (that way they would resemble Landsknecht armies better)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 08:14:32 PM by iatroblast »

Offline Hurin Thalion

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2009, 09:56:15 PM »
I like the idea of S4 Greatswords personally. I mean, come on! Hefting a 6-foot long blade around takes strength on its own, but wielding it with skill? That's S4 material!

I also like them being immune to psychology as long as a General of the Empire is in the unit. The Army Book and other books are littered with stories of Greatswords and Electors fighting until the bitter end!

And as I've said before, we HAVE to lobby for better troops or we'll be outclassed beyond hope by next edition!
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Offline Red

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2009, 05:21:58 PM »
I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that modern troops have more discipline than earlier armies. While our current troops are extremely disciplined and brave, many civilizations took this much further, ie Spartans, Romans (although Rome didn't take this as far as Spartans), etc.

Otherwise I think Greatswords should be S4 as der Hurenwiebel said, if IC Knights have it, why don't our elite infantry? Skirmishing would also make much more sense considering the weapons they are using, but it might look a bit strange for skirmishing units to have ranked detachments.

Quote
The only problem, would be that we would have to reconsider which units should hold their formation when marching (for e.g 'flagellants', 'Chaos Warrios', 'Skaven', 'Goblins' etc. )

The only unit I find strange that has formal ranks (from another army book) is Ghouls, they're supposed to be scavengers, joining the army to look for food and quick kills. Otherwise for Zombies, Flaggies, Chaos Warriors, Goblins, etc. rank bonuses are their to represent their "push" how they just swarm at the enemy , and it affects combat, best way to represent this is with ranks, even though they may not actually have a proper formation.


Offline Zalminen

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2009, 06:59:12 PM »
Skirmishing would also make much more sense considering the weapons they are using, but it might look a bit strange for skirmishing units to have ranked detachments.
Agreed.
I wholeheartedly support the skirmishing idea but it does also mean that the greatswords should no longer be able to take detachments.

And immunity to fear sounds fine to me, they are supposed to be already selected from the bravest after all... :happy:

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2009, 04:33:54 AM »

consensus;
Excellent do you all agree on the point cost of the option, and that it should be an option rather than mandatory.  Speaking of skirmishing of course.  Next, what about the KB, and halberd options?
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Chr1s-Cross

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2009, 01:57:46 PM »
I'm not totally sure about them being skirmishing, being the elite of an army based (mostly) around rank-and-file troops, but I think it could be good if they were scouts as well as skirmishers - then they could be used like some sort of elite strike force.

What do you think about them having Toughness 4 - I mean, Empire Greatswords are meant to be Empire troops who are hardened veterans and survivors - "On one occasion during the Battle of Blood Ridge, Albrecht Hoefner, the last survivor of von Menscher's Blackhelms, recieved his promotion after defending his regiment's colours for an entire day against repeated attacks from scores of bloodthirsty tribesmen and mutated beasts" - Empire army book

I think that could also solve the problem of them dying quickly fom other high strength ranged and melee troops too (especially because of striking last).

So what do you think about T4 Greatswords, everyone?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 03:03:53 PM by Chr1s-Cross »

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2009, 07:33:55 AM »
so long as a reasonable price tag were attached... :mrgreen: and  :::cheers:::
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline iatroblast

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2009, 12:37:27 AM »
Quote
...what about the KB, and halberd options?
Don't know what 'KB' stands for, but halberds would be MY favorite choice for this highly-armored stubborn unit! +1 Strength, Strike in Initiative order and DoW already use them as bodyguards! Two thumbs up! :lol: (Plus, it would make the Emperor MOST happy!)

Quote
...what do you think about T4 Greatswords, everyone?
I'd say no, because they'd look a lot like Orcs (statistical) rather than humans, but you give a lot of good reasons to boost their Toughness AND a good story-explanation......
I'll think this a little more....... :icon_confused:

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2009, 06:28:36 AM »
KB = killing blow.  always kills on a 6 to wound no armour save, similar to poison.

Ludwig Schwarzhelm has this skill among others
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline peraturabo

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2009, 07:06:25 PM »
give them a ward save  :::cheers:::

Offline forthelady

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2009, 10:23:36 PM »
10 Points a Greatsword is the right price I think, the only problem is that most other armys elite are undercosted what what they do. Maybe I 4 because well, they are an elite..

What if you give them their banner option back and when joined by the Count or general that the unit is immune to psyologie, pretty fluffy I think. Give them the option to upgrade one unit in the army to +1 strength as someone suggested as the best of the best!

just my 2 cents   :ph34r:

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2009, 11:58:38 PM »
WOW I cant believe i missed this thread for so long!

I take a unit of Greatswords in my 2250 every time but lately I have been taking a GoTE on foot with them too. Every game I play they emerge unscathed as the opposing player avoids them like the plague and goes after my warmachines and cavalry which dont die as easily as he thinks and my greatwords end up taking an objective or beating a big unit or something like that.

I vote keeping the greatswords option the same and maybe giving them s4.
I used to do Marxbruder historical fechtschule back in brisbane and that is basically learning how to fight with a zweihander while wearing full plate armour. Exactly how the 16th-17th century soldiers of the LANDSCNEKT used to fight.

I agree with Toro about the way they fought but not as a zweihander. Forlorn hope were the men who suicidally rushed into pike formations and hacked them apart so the regular infantry and pikes could close crush the battle line.

Zwei handers would engage heavily armoured troops and tear them apart.
I know from the personal experience fighting with two handed swords for months. All the strikes led into another attack while all our defensive blocks would lead into an attack again, while this doesn;t sound like much I was taught to aim for points in full plate armour that i could push my sword into. Under the arms, back of the knees and elbows, neck, wrists, ankles.
All these places are weak points in the armour and can be capitalised on.

 Remember that Greatswordsmen in the fantasy world are facing differant opposition then in our real world.
The pike formations which changed tactics so much are not relevant in fantasy where the only army to get pikes is DoW and that list isn't viable any more. The closest I'd say is High Elves as their spear formations are basically greek phalanx.
The GS in the empire are supposed to be the best fighter in the land. Recruited for their extreme sacrifice for their lord and land; stubborn represents this according to GW. 

I think give our GS base s4 and the option for a magic banner(50pts)
GoTE allows one unit to be taken as core. Only Greatswordsmen can take GS detachements. I personally would never pay 10pts a model for a detachement but I think it should be there, the GS are specialised state troops after all.

But give us another infantry unit for rare and I would definately say Forlorn Hope.
15 pts a model, M4 WS5 BS3 S4 T3 I3 A2 LD10
full plate, greatsword, hand weapon.

Special rules: Immune to Psychology (these men are fearless, they are men who are trained to charge without restraint into enemy formations and cut around them until death, the only problem with this is they cannot flee from charges so this i thought is justified for points.)

Skirmishers.
( the reason I chose this is because these men fight in a loose formation in order to use their swords to maximum effectiveness in combat. I know from their stats they are godlike for men but with the skirmishing rule it takes away their rank bonus and all ability for combat res. which is a huge downside.)

 Champion 15pts. M4 WS5 BS3 S4 T3 I3 A3 LD10
Has Killing blow.
(I know I know it sounds crazy, a man with three S6 KB attacks??? are you crazy DC? But think about it, out of a company of men where none expect to survive the battle a man would emerge who survived every battle, the men cut down around him while he alone remained, he would have to be very effective at killing
. I was gonna say free but I thought why not just give him a points cost people will complainabout free killing blow.)
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2009, 06:13:54 AM »
I still like the A la carte menu.

As for the forlorne hope, they would and should play somewhat like a cross between flaggies and greatswords.  In real life the forlorne hope would be made up of convicted criminals or other desperate men looking to make a really quick if risky buck.  They wouldn't neccisarily be armoured less well that their more balanced compatriots and wouldn't neccisarily be better trained.  But giving a warhammer general the opportunity to create a unit of human troll slayers with immune to psyche that is something to think about. 

what's the going rate for the stubborn skill 2 pts?  how bout calling "I2P" 3pts?

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2009, 09:20:24 AM »
Yes thats true, I'm pretty sure historically the forlorne hope were mostly made up of volunteers, criminals and men sentanced to death.

Maybe itp skirmish and ws4 with hatred?
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2009, 07:36:58 PM »
that could work, we'd have to price out hatred too, or make it so a warrior priest could join.  This is why I like the idea of a menu based profile with the numbers of builds availiable you could have GS's with a points cost from 7- 16 points, which covers all the possibilities from town militia armed with a GS to imperial foot knight with a hate on for everybody and everything who stands in his way.  Are you convinced yet?  State troops shouldn't have the same psychology flexibility but in my opinion should have similar equippage flexibility, this way we'd only have two basic state troops profiles, ballistic and CC with a menu of options to arm, or defend them with. 
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Blauer Nebel

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2009, 09:31:03 PM »
I think they shouldn't be skirmishers. I feel in bigger games like 40K and WFB things are represented rather than "as-is". So while they may look tightly packed, they're moving around and fighting as trained.

I feel that the General should allow one unit to be Core. That seems pretty obvious to me. I'd take them, right there, if I could have one of them be my mandatory Cores. Give them detachments and send 'em on their way. Also, General or not, they should have access to a damn magic banner (50 points or less). Again, it's pretty obvious they should have that option at least. In addition, if the General is with them, they are Immune to Psychology. I see the Greatswords as the Inner Circle for the Templar Grandmaster, and I believe the fluff backs that up rather well. I see that as pretty reasonable for 10 points.

Otherwise, keep their rules as they are. S5 is fine and WS4 is enough. We're humans, after all. I disagree with Killing Blow. That's just power creeping. It's like the Instant Death thing going on in 40K right now: everyone and their grandmother has "causes Instant Death on a..." post 5th Edition. He may be a human Guardsman captain, but with his special sword, he causes... INSTANT DEATH. On a roll of 6 to wound... INSTANT DEATH. Forgo all attacks for one that causes... well, you get the idea.

We're Empire, gentlemen. We break our backs to win the day, not our Codex/Army book.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2009, 09:23:33 AM »
I only put killing blow in for the champion of the forlorn hope. . . i wasn't gonna give it to every model lol
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Offline Chr1s-Cross

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2009, 12:50:22 PM »
Maybe not a skirmisher, but how about they have a bigger base, like chaos warriors and marauders do, just to represent how their formation is looser than other troops, although I guess you would have to buy new ones, if you already have greatswords.

I think it would be good if greatswords had ws 5 though, since they are the some of the most skilled warriors in the Empire, yet at the moment have stats which are inferior to the stats of common swordsmen.

Or do you think they could count as armour piercing, to make them like anti-knight troops?

Offline Zarkdon

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2009, 12:50:10 AM »
Only thing the greatswords really need is a shield. Then you could run a 2+ as swordsmen (give them I 4) or if that doesnt sound right give them a shield for shooting and a special rule that says they must use the Greatsword.
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2009, 06:49:48 AM »
Or just don't bother with the shield because it would take them back to twelve points.

S4 is what they need, initiative is nothing with a greatsword. . . ASL is not fun :-(
 
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Offline Inarticulate

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2009, 06:37:49 PM »
Stuff about there being no pikes in the fantasy world so not really relevant to have a forlorn hope unit.

Excellent post, exactly what I'd write.  :::cheers:::
I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline scarletsquig

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Re: New Greatswords
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2009, 07:31:51 PM »
The solution to power creep is not more power creep.

If they're not up to scratch, then a points reduction is in order, 1 point should do it.