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Author Topic: Imperial Knights.  (Read 14929 times)

Offline MagicJuggler

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Imperial Knights.
« on: May 12, 2009, 11:01:18 PM »
As I've mentioned before, I am in favor of Knights being used as a Special Choice rather than a Core. This represents the fact that they're an ideal for Pistoliers and Freelancing cavalry to aspire to. So, here I present a simpler set of rules for Imperial Knights.

WS 4, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 4, Ld 8, Sv 2+, A 1
Points cost: 20
Equipment: Hand Weapon, Barded Warhorse

Options: May take one of the following items:
Great Weapon (2 pt), Halberd (4 pts), Extra Hand Weapon (1 pt; this is an exception to mounted units not being able to take extra hand weapons and is made famous by the Knights Encarmine), Lance (2 pts), Shield (1 pt).
May take a Knightly Trait for the appropriate Points Cost.
May be upgraded to Inner Circle at +10 points a model. Inner Circle Knights add +1 to WS, S, I, and A, and may take 2 Knightly Traits or the Inner Circle version of a Trait. They take a Rare slot.

The Knightly Traits List (Working out points list):
Blessing of Morr:
The visage of death smiles upon these knights.
The unit causes fear. Inner Circle version: The knights cause terror.
Blessing of Myrmida:

Blessing of Ranald

Blademasters
These knights are known to be a whirling dervish of blades, striking with utmost precision
The unit's attacks gain the Armor Piercing Ability. Inner Circle Version: The knights have armor piercing and Killing Blow.

Blessing of Sigmar

Blessing of Manann
The god of the oceans confers his benefits to these knights
The unit is treated as being Aquatic. Inner Circle Version: The unit is treated as being Aquatic and Ethereal in aquatic terrain.

Fill in more later.

Offline t12161991

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2009, 11:07:27 PM »
Keep as is...

Make the blessing stuff an Inner Circle thing only.

Keep only the original version. Then make the Inner Circle upgrade 10 points.
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2009, 11:49:11 PM »
So Knight, then Inner Circle, then blessing on top? So there would be little incentive to have a non-blessed Inner Circle unit as opposed to a blessed one, save for points-shaving. I mean, the idea is for non-inner circle blessings to be minor as compared with the rest (Aquatic? Big whoop), etc.

Offline t12161991

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2009, 11:59:07 PM »
Keep knights as is now. Keep initial IC knights as is now.

You may upgrade a single Inner Circle knight unit to a unit of knights dedicated to one of the following gods:

Morr (Fear) +? pts
Ranald (AP) +? pts
Sigmar (?) +? pts
Manaan (Aquatic) +? pts
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2009, 12:09:59 AM »
Again, not all of the following suggestions were blessings. In the case of orders like the Knights Encarmine, the bladestorm ability represents their expertise when fighting with multiple swords; so...what about maybe mystical vs. mundane bonuses?

Offline t12161991

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2009, 12:18:06 AM »
You may dedicate a single one of your Inner Circle Knight units to one of the following paths...

list of upgrades with points for upgrades.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2009, 04:02:10 AM »
I think the other reason to take basic knights would be that they are Core - where as the IC knights with all the upgrades would be special.

And thats the first time I have heard such a differentiation (I think), and I like it.
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2009, 04:14:07 AM »
Again, I don't like the idea of Knights as core and light cavalry as special. It lacks internal consistency with the rest of GW armies, especially with the trend for fast cavalry units as core and the heavier units as special. Plus fluffwise, it's the Pistoliers aspire to become knights, not the other way around...it seems off to have the novices be less common than the seasoned veterans...

Offline t12161991

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2009, 04:17:07 AM »
Shouldn't each army be different? Knights and heavy cavalry are integral to the general tactics employed by the Empire. Fast Cavalry- not so much.

Oh, and not all that many armies have Fast cav in core. Only Wood and Dark Elves, WoC, and maybe O&G. That's it.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2009, 04:25:29 AM »
Because Knights are not just nobles sons - where as pistoliers are.

And it only lacks consistency with their new approach, which I personally don't agree with. The reason GW have taken the approach of moving cavalry out of Core and into Special, is because both Chaos and High Elves were armies that have less of a balance between all phases of the game, and the consistancy of their armybook to others was unbalanced. These are two armies where their Elite infantry (10pt+ models) is the core of their list, and due to the choices available, their elite infantry was being swapped for more cost effective cavalry.

Empire does not have a similar problem as these, as we rely on a balanced list and static CR to win, and do not have such an issue with Elite infantry dominating our choices, and a requirement to stack CR by kills.

Empire's strength should lie in its core. You take away the knights, and our strength will lie in our special like so many other armies, and our internal consistency will be shot. It's not as though our knights are overpowered, they are essentially only flankers for us anyway, they do not generate kills like a Chaos Army, nor are they more cost effective than our Core infantry like they did in High Elves.

Besides, Dogs or War and Bretonnians both have heavy cavalry in their Core slots - its classic fantasy with knights in shining armour :happy:
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2009, 04:27:12 AM »
Shouldn't each army be different? Knights and heavy cavalry are integral to the general tactics employed by the Empire. Fast Cavalry- not so much.

Fast Cavalry in general are a delaying tool used for Elite infantry armies to help them get across the board. We do not have such an army.

Oh, and not all that many armies have Fast cav in core. Only Wood and Dark Elves, WoC, and maybe O&G. That's it.

Indeed.
Quote from: Gneisenau
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Offline t12161991

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2009, 04:29:42 AM »
1st two are fast forces, the third somewhat, but also a "plains" army, and the fourth... well Goblin lives are cheap...
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Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2009, 05:46:42 AM »
From a fluff point, making knights special makes sense.

But then I want Core Demilancers (Knights without FPA essentially)
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Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2009, 12:43:36 PM »
No Great weapons or halberds. Not while mounted.

Blessings look good though.

Myrmidia = +1 initiative?
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2009, 12:49:05 PM »
No Great weapons or halberds. Not while mounted.

Blessings look good though.

Myrmidia = +1 initiative?

+1Ld I think.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2009, 02:59:03 PM »
I'm not in favour of putting Knights into the Special category, as I feel that this is the domain of Inner Circle Knights, and I also believe that only Inner Circle Knights should get any Knightly Order bonuses.

As much as I am a supporter of background, I just feel that adding Knightly Order bonuses to non IC Knights is a touch too powerful, and is unnecessarily complicated.

I also don't like the idea of Knights carrying Great Weapons and Halberds whilst mounted, as I just don't see how they would be able to use these weapons, control their mounts and direct a coordinated charge.  Yes, Knights of the White Wolf use Cavalry Hammers, but these are not quite the same as a two-handed Great Weapon or Halberd, so I really can see either of these two options as being plausible.

Making Inner Circle Knights a rare choice doesn't make sense to me either, as while they are not common, nor are they so rare as to justify ending up in the same category as the Steam Tank and Helblaster.

I really don't think that Knights need much tinkering with, so I would keep any changes here very small, if anything is to be changed at all.

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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2009, 03:42:29 PM »
Shouldn't each army be different? Knights and heavy cavalry are integral to the general tactics employed by the Empire. Fast Cavalry- not so much.

Fast Cavalry in general are a delaying tool used for Elite infantry armies to help them get across the board. We do not have such an army.

Oh, and not all that many armies have Fast cav in core. Only Wood and Dark Elves, WoC, and maybe O&G. That's it.

Indeed.


I've always viewed fast cavalry as a unit meant to delay and harass while the rest of the army pounds away with magic and/or artillery. In the case of Dogs of War and Brets, they aren't the full-plate knights that Empire is. Fluffwise, Bretonnians are pretty much a knight-in-shining armor army, with most non-knights relegated to auxiliary duties, while not all Heavy cavalry in Dogs of War are necessarily knights. You have your assorted freelancers, rogues, armored bandits, etc. My intent when I wrote the Reiter entry was to be able to simulate such units with core, with special representing the more armored/more trained knights.

Offline t12161991

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2009, 06:20:57 PM »
3 armies (2 real ones) have Heavy Cav as core. 4 armies (3 real ones) have Fast Cav as core. Of those, 1 has no real heavy cav (Wood Elves).

I see nothing wrong with the way it is now. The "dedication" upgrades would be nice, fluffy, and effective, but not necessary.

Remember, the goal in this is not to drastically rewrite the army book. It is to update it, with a few major changes (pikes, new hero choices, etc.).

At least, that's my impression. I could be wrong.
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Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2009, 07:40:38 PM »
dont go the route of HE and make your only core calvary go special only.  :eusa_wall:
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Offline t12161991

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2009, 07:42:59 PM »
Also, the old adage.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
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Offline patsy02

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2009, 03:46:34 PM »
Don't touch the knights, just bring back the cavalry hammer. That way they will be perfect.
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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2009, 02:04:41 AM »
i agree that knights need a fluffy overhaul... make them special and rare (for IC), some sort of knoghtly order upgrades (much like the lizzy upgrades)... also if Grand Master is present than the units become core and special respectfully... lastly, knghts should be S4 and Inner Circle should be S4 and A2 (appropriate point upgrades with the stats)
Well if the empire is gonna get all those upgrades you want, then my gobbos want S4, T4, and A2... that would be as balanced as your new halberds and other rules...

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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2009, 05:58:54 PM »
Knights are good, but not THAT good. Having them at S4 by default is a bit much, unless that is an upgrade option. Part of my desire to see customizable upgrades for knights is to represent the diversity of the numerous groups that serve the Empire and other old-world nations, as well as to represent other unique groups like Kislevite Bogatyr, Estalian Lanceros, or the flame-sword wielding Knights of the Blazing Sun...

Offline Count Stephano

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2009, 09:59:35 PM »
Keep knights as they are.

Except the models...
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Imperial Knights.
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2009, 01:47:58 PM »
dont go the route of HE and make your only core calvary go special only.  :eusa_wall:

I'm not. I just would like to see the Pistoliers and Knights switch place on the who's who because as Greatswords are supposed to be veteran infantry, Knights are supposed to be veteran cavalry; the Pistolkorp is supposed to serve as training for knights and outriders and other such units. The idea was that the general customizable options for Reiters (another article I had written in the Core forum) would allow one the option of creating medium cavalry to represent mounted sergeants, squires, men-at-arms, or the other mounted servants that would comprise a knightly order, while the knights themselves occupy a more elite status rather than being solely used for the purpose of riding in front of enemy bolt throwers.