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Author Topic: Demilancers  (Read 7630 times)

Offline Warlord

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Demilancers
« on: May 13, 2009, 03:57:40 AM »
Hi all,

I think we need to change the way pistoliers / outriders are presented in the book - choice wise, and also add a medium cavalry option. The way to fix this, would be by building off the Pistolier base:

Basically take the pistolier option, and allow the player to upgrade the unit (if they wise) to Outriders, or Demilancers.
Outriders would be as is in the book.
Demilancers would:
gain +1 WS (rather than the +1 BS of Outriders)
rather than a Repeater Handgun, a Demilancer would be equipped with a lance and pistol
have the option for barding just like Outriders

In this way, we have a unit of light - medium cavalry that can hit hard on the charge, and potentially perform other light cav duties.
They don't shoot as well as pistoliers and aren't as armoured as knights, but in a pinch can perform both roles.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2009, 12:04:16 PM »
It would be nice if you could trade in your pistols for a bow.  There's no real practical reason to do this beyond fluff.  Perhaps having the model cost 1 less point would be an incentive, but that would really be the only reason.  Bows give you longer range, but that's about it.  Without a WS4 bows are kind of worthless, but my fluffiness would love that option.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2009, 12:08:49 PM »
I don't think it makes sense for lightly-armored cavalry to have an option for barding (rules-wise or 'realism-wise'). Give them heavy armor instead.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2009, 12:20:26 PM »
Fair enough. Thats actaully the first time I suggested Barding instead of heavy armour, and really it was only for symetry with the outriders.

As for bow / crossbow mounted cavalry, I think that is a good candidate for a Core choice - as they could hardly be game breaking....
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2009, 02:19:49 PM »
I'd highly recommend hopping over to the "Reiters" discussion.  It excludes outriders but does facilitate Freelancers, Demilancers, and Pistoliers.

And one small point...what other unit in the Empire army uses Heavy Armour?  It seems to be a trait of our Army Book - and a kind of neat one - that our troops use either light or full plate, with the notable and singular exception of Warrior Priests (of both types).  That might be something to keep.
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2009, 02:34:45 PM »
I dissagree on that one, the argument that full plate is reserved for elite troops is a good one, but I also think light armour for professional state troops is also lacking somewhat.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2009, 02:47:19 PM »
I dissagree on that one, the argument that full plate is reserved for elite troops is a good one, but I also think light armour for professional state troops is also lacking somewhat.

Agree. The lack of heavy armour in our list I find annoying and pointless.
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Offline Count Stephano

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 10:12:03 PM »
I like the idea of a demi-lancer, seems to fit the empire theme (anno 1600).

My setup for a demi-lancer would be:

stats: WS 4, I 4, LD 7, 2 A for champion
Full plate armor, unbarded horse and a lance.

special rules:
Precision strike
+1 to hit on charge, using no shield gives the lancer a better aim.
Couragous charge
Immune to psychology on the charge

18 pts per Demi-lancer

I think a full plate would fit the Demi-lancer very well: link to wiki

Demi-lancers used mostly half-plate armor which is imo full plate in warhammer.

Also a 3+ save would make them able to take some fire but not enough to replace true knights. And with ld 7 they are not really reliable to stick in combat.
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Offline HoreTore

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2009, 08:05:47 PM »
I'd love some light lancers in the empire list. IMO, they should be fast with a hard punch, but without any ability to take punishment. My take:

- Stat-line as a pistolier, perhaps with WS4
- Light armour, no shield or barding
- Fast cavalry rules(no ranks)
- Armed with lance and "cavalry pistol". I see it as a pistol they shoot while charging in(not at other times), either giving an extra S4 AP attack in close combat, or shot using BS as kind of a reverse stand and shoot, with casualties counting for CR.
- cost around 18-20pts
- Option for full command

You'd get a unit that is fast and delivers a very hard charge, but which is incredibly vulnerable to enemy shooting. A nice niche in the empire army, IMO.

But maybe I'm just missing the old fusillade rule...

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2009, 08:01:40 AM »
Light cav,

spears,

heavy armour

stat line of a pistolier

15 points I would love them! Lets call them DOW light cav +

Offline Gorthac

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2009, 04:40:20 PM »
I don't think any fast cav unit can get 4+ AS and still keep it's fast cavalry rule.

I think this as a whole is a great idea. But like outriders, Demilancers should lose fast cav rule if you take barding with them.
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Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2009, 07:39:25 PM »
Oglah Khan's wolf boys.

4+ save, fast cavalry.

But I think that's the only unit.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2009, 05:19:31 AM »
Depending on what you are shooting for here we could be talking about either heavy cuiraissiers (a la Pappenheim) or light lancers (a la balkan stradiots) indeed we could make a set of rules to allow both or include the heavy cuiraissiers in with the order knights. 

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline cisse

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2009, 07:35:16 AM »
Stats of pistoliers, heavy armour, lance, shield an pistol. A very versatile unit for sure, but that's the intention. Doesn't shoot as well as pistoliers, but packs a good punch. Not as durable as knights, but they're faster. No fast cav rule needed I think; the loss of the 360 LoS for shooting may hurt but they gain a decent AS and a good S on the charge.

Should cost some points, though, 22 or 23... Would be a fun unit to use on the other hand, perhaps even as core.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2009, 10:08:12 PM »
well if we simply took the current pistoliers, and upgraded thier equipment to reflect the profile you suggest we would have this.

pistolier 18pts
heavy armour+1pt
shield +1 pt cannot equip with the carbine.
lance +3 pts
spear +2 pts
or Carbine +3 pts. As hand gun, can move and shoot the first time it is used, range 16 inches.
Standard bearer + 8 pts


fast cavalry is retained but can be discarded for -2pts
the spare pistol may be discarded for -2pts leaving the demi lancer, or ironside, new model light cavalry with one pistol and sword as unoptioned equipment.

This gives us a new base cost of 14 points after fast cav and the spare pistol are discarded and a fully equipped points cost of either 23 points for an older style light lancer or 22 points for a carabiner without a shield.  Several different builds are possible with this from a 16 point heavy armour and shield armed moss trooper with limited pistol capacity and better CC capacity, to 19 point LA wearing carabiners without fast cav as an alternative to outriders. 

some builds just don't make sense given like costed existing troops obviously, others provide interesting alternatives.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline iatroblast

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2009, 12:49:10 AM »
Hi all,

I think we need to change the way pistoliers / outriders are presented in the book - choice wise, and also add a medium cavalry option. The way to fix this, would be by building off the Pistolier base:

Basically take the pistolier option, and allow the player to upgrade the unit (if they wise) to Outriders, or Demilancers.
Outriders would be as is in the book.
Demilancers would:
gain +1 WS (rather than the +1 BS of Outriders)
rather than a Repeater Handgun, a Demilancer would be equipped with a lance and pistol
have the option for barding just like Outriders

In this way, we have a unit of light - medium cavalry that can hit hard on the charge, and potentially perform other light cav duties.
They don't shoot as well as pistoliers and aren't as armoured as knights, but in a pinch can perform both roles.

I LOVE THOSE RULES JUST THE WAY THEY ARE!


I don't agree with anything else, including Heavy-armor option or shield!! We are making Demilancers here! -a whole different unit in the game! NOT NEW ERRANT KNIGHTS! :-P :-P :-P

"They don't shoot as well as pistoliers and aren't as armoured as knights, but in a pinch can perform both roles" and that's what they're all about! :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: Congrats!!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:54:00 AM by iatroblast »

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2009, 06:43:04 AM »
so  your build preference would lean towards minus one pistol -2 points plus a lance +3 points =19 points per model.

I think I might like to try out 19 point carabiners with a 16 inch range.

why not both and several other types?

Even an errant knight type build isn't, they are rather the ministrielen of the knightly orders, in other words the sergeantry and hard working grunts.  Not rich brats looking for fame and glory to the lady whoever she is, probably some whore behind a tavern.  (to digress into the persona of the troopers themselves)

a specific build has NO story behind it at the time of the profile construction.  Errant knights are the brettonian flavour of medium cav, mounted yeomen their light cav.  Can we not have kislev archers because the brettonians have yeomen?  Of course we can, likewise with our own flavour of medium cavalry.

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline iatroblast

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2009, 10:31:33 AM »
Quote
..I think I might like to try out 19 point carabiners with a 16 inch range-
I'll buy a unit to convert!!

Quote
-why not both and several other types?
I don't know..I can see the lack of equipment 'options' for our troops, too....
Where marauders are choosing between shields, flails, great weapons, armour and so on, we can only choose if we'll have a musician along or not :cry:
..I'm really worried about entering too many different types of knights. I don't want to look like Bretonnia.
I admit that the rules you're suggesting, allow me to equip them as Warlord suggests..
..I think we must be extremely careful when we're suggesting more cavalry units! We want raw power as well as keeping our originality(identity). Otherwise, the 'Lady of the Lake' won't seem so far anymore... :ph34r:
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 10:50:14 AM by iatroblast »

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2009, 11:20:25 AM »
and why not.  There was der frauen von der glassmountain afterall.  (sorry my German isn't up to snuff tonight)  Lots of Germanic type chicks inspiring all kinds of martial valor, including the lady of the lake who was a frankish legend originally.  She only became french because the franks got latinized, by blending with the local celts, roman bacaudae, merovingians, and later carolingians. 

they'd be an easy model to convert too just grab the handgunner arms from the state troops, shorten the barrel a bit slap those babies on the pistolier body and horse, bob's yer mother's brother. just for the most direct and easy way to convert them, be more creative if you wish.  Hell for that matter use mounted crossbows they were in fact used through the landesknecht period since their range was not limited by the types of weapons they could carry and load on horseback.

Either way these would be used as run-em-up and park em troops.



 
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2009, 12:45:52 AM »
ALL HAIL THE DEMI LANCER!

I vote for pistolier build, +1WS, heavy armour, lance, option for barding

Hit and run: the demi lancers are masters of the repeated charge into enemy formations which cause tremendous damage to infantry and cavalry alike.
On the turn any Demi lancer charges, after combat has been worked out but before a break test the Demi lancer player has the option to flee. The Demi lancers roll for a flee move but are automatically reformed in the rally phase and can move as normal. The enemy cannot pursue as the speed of the attack and retreat takes them by surprise.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2009, 05:58:32 AM »
Call the skill "trained" price it up for a couple of points and I'll go for it even with heavy horse.  The warhammer historicals did this in the "beyond the Golden Gate" supplement for Byzantium and the eastern style cavalry warfare.   Hit and run type tactics were used as a matter of course for light medium and heavy cavalry in the east.  Ride by lancing was taken for granted, as was using the greater mobility of the horse to maintain initiative dominance on the battlefield.

being able to choose when and where a fight would occur is very important.  Especially since this means you get to choose how many of you there are in comparison to them.

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2009, 09:22:55 AM »
Definately. Price it up maybe fifteen pts a model base and then the options like lance and barding over the top?
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2009, 07:43:26 PM »
going back a few posts my base cost for a profile of a man on a horse no special skills and armed with a hand weapon was 14 pts. Are you saying that the "trained" skill should cost one point to equal 15 points or that it should cost 29 points for an unarmoured man on a horse with a sword to fight with?

I was thinking that fast cav could cost 2pts and that also trained could cost a further 2pts for 4 pts in total for the rules suite.  However "trained" is a powerful game modifier it changes the way in which cavalry is played perhaps 3pts is more in line with this.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2009, 09:28:26 AM »
Oh no no no I meant price up the model from the standard 13 to fifteen. hand weapon as standard and you can buy barding armour, lance, or spear, crossbow or pistol
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Demilancers
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 12:30:24 AM »
well a point cheaper is better, how bout buying the training, ie fast cav and or "trained" (we've got to come up with a better name, how bout "averland trained")
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.