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Author Topic: OPTIONS Empire: Special  (Read 5204 times)

Offline mwalsh867

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OPTIONS Empire: Special
« on: July 22, 2009, 02:31:42 AM »
Guess I'll weigh in with what I've been playing with.  I started with Core here http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=29816.0.  I'll update my thoughts on Characters (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=29897.msg420890#msg420890) and Rares (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=29896.0) and link them there.

Also there is a short mission statement on what I'm trying to do with this list - make versatility the specialization of the Empire.

I'd specifically like feedback on the Outriders - does the cost scheme for Junior Engineers make sense? Are the armor options appropriately costed?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Parent and Detachment rules are explained in the Core topic linked above.

Fusillade: When charging into combat, Pistoliers may make a single shooting attack with a pistol (NOT repeater pistol) with a -1 to hit modifier against the unit they are charging.  Casualties do NOT count toward combat resolution.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

CANNON   75 Points
Profile: Cannon - As DoW rules; Great Cannon and crew - As Empire book.
Number of Crew: 3
Equipment: Hand weapon.
Options: Up to two additional Crewmen +5 points each.  Cannon may be upgraded to great cannon +25.
Special Rules: Cannon or Great Cannon, War Machine.

GREATSWORDS   9 Points/Model
Profile: As Empire book.
Unit Strength: 10+
Equipment: Hand weapon, great weapon, heavy armor.
Options: Full plate armor +1.
Command:  Lieutenant +12, musician +6, and/or standard bearer +12.  The standard bearer may carry a magic standard worth up to 50 points.
Special Rules: Always Parent or Independent unit, Stubborn.

MORTAR   75 Points/Model
Profile: As Empire book.
Number of Crew: 3
Equipment: Hand weapon.
Options: Up to two additional Crewmen +5 points each.
Special Rules: Mortar, War Machine.

OUTRIDERS   19 Points/Model
Profile: As Empire book.
Unit Strength: 5+
Equipment: Hand weapon, handgun, light armor, warhorse.
Options: Repeater handgun +2.  Heavy armor +2 and/or barding +2.
Command: Junior Engineer +16, and/or musician +8.  The Junior Engineer may exchange his handgun/repeater handgun for a grenade-launching blunderbuss +2/+0, pistol and repeater pistol +2/+0, or Hochland longrifle +8/+6.
Special Rules: Fast Cavalry (lost if heavy armor and/or barding are purchased).

PISTOLIERS   17 Points/Model
Profile: As Empire book.
Unit Strength: 5+
Equipment: Hand weapon, brace of pistols, warhorse.
Options: Light armor +2.
Command: Outrider +7 and/or musician +7.  The outrider may be equipped with a repeater pistol and pistol +10.
Special Rules: Fast Cavalry, Fusillade (Rider makes single (1; i.e. not with repeating pistol) shooting attack prior to HTH combat with -1 to hit modifier.  Wounds count to combat resolution).
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 06:46:29 PM by mwalsh867 »

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2009, 03:14:50 AM »
Tell me, at only +2 pts, why WOULDN'T an outrider take the repeater handgun option over a normal handgun?  :icon_question:

Offline chadgamer

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2009, 05:20:53 AM »
Tell me, at only +2 pts, why WOULDN'T an outrider take the repeater handgun option over a normal handgun?  :icon_question:

Maybe because of the rest of the army, you don't have 2 points? It allows for more customization.

As I said for your post about core, well done!  :eusa_clap:
"My steam tank charges your 5 Chaos Knights with 5 Steam Points"
"Bring it on"
"I do 6D3 impact hits" *roll* "Strength 6" *roll* "10 wounds, you need 4s to save"
"I saved 5"
"Your 5 frenzied Chaos Knights are dead"

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 11:33:25 AM »
I'm sorry though; being given multiple options is no good if the options all suck. See Flash Gitz in 40k as an example. True you have all sorts of conversion opportunities but ruleswise they are horribly unoptimized.

Why not allow Outriders the option to buy Repeater Pistols like they could in 5th edition and move pistoliers to core to compensate? Or even set it up so the Junior Engineer add-on for the Outriders could take 25 pts of gifts from the Engineering College (the way a Hag could take 25 pts from the Gifts of Khaine)? Hmm?

Offline mwalsh867

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2009, 02:24:59 AM »
I'm sorry though; being given multiple options is no good if the options all suck. See Flash Gitz in 40k as an example. True you have all sorts of conversion opportunities but ruleswise they are horribly unoptimized.

Why not allow Outriders the option to buy Repeater Pistols like they could in 5th edition and move pistoliers to core to compensate? Or even set it up so the Junior Engineer add-on for the Outriders could take 25 pts of gifts from the Engineering College (the way a Hag could take 25 pts from the Gifts of Khaine)? Hmm?

Having repeater handguns for +2 points makes them the same points value as outriders currently.  I don't think anyone thinks outriders suck.  I guess you could drop the base price by a point and make the upgrade cost 3 points - might make the handgun option more tempting.

I don't want to rock the boat too much with moving pistoliers to core, etc.  Although I think the Reiters discussion in the Core forum is rather excellent, I think Empire core cavalry should be heavy, and keep the missile/light as special (lest we step on dark/wood elven toes).

As I said for your post about core, well done!  :eusa_clap:

Thanks man, I really appreciate it!

Offline Folken

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2009, 04:20:57 AM »
If we get core pistoliers you will never see me field another handgunner.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2009, 03:30:50 PM »
The truth though is that giving Outriders handguns defeats one of the main reasons you would take them over Handgunners (more shots on a lower frontage); why aren't you taking the cheaper handgunners instead?

Also, it's not just Elves that have light core/heavy special. Pretty much everyone that isn't Bretonnians. Warriors of Chaos, Orcs and Goblins, Vampires, etc. Rather than say "Don't make pistoliers core since it will supplant handgunners", make handgunners better so you have a viable alternative. One problem with them is that once combat gets joined, they're pretty useless. Why not update the detachment system so that shooting detachments can shoot into combats with their parent units? Or have handgunners "count as" using spears? Or even the option to upgrade handgunners to skirmishers?

Offline chadgamer

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2009, 05:26:45 PM »
The truth though is that giving Outriders handguns defeats one of the main reasons you would take them over Handgunners (more shots on a lower frontage); why aren't you taking the cheaper handgunners instead?

BS 4, 16" fast cav movement, better armor save, horses generate attacks, flee/pursue with 3 dice, etc.
"My steam tank charges your 5 Chaos Knights with 5 Steam Points"
"Bring it on"
"I do 6D3 impact hits" *roll* "Strength 6" *roll* "10 wounds, you need 4s to save"
"I saved 5"
"Your 5 frenzied Chaos Knights are dead"

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2009, 06:19:17 PM »
Betterr save...until someone throws a fireball at you or lets fly with the Repeater Bolt Throwers. At more than twice the cost of a handgunner, this is not a winning proposition.

An extra S3 attack. Whee...why aren't you using spearmen?

Fast cav movement is nice I'll admit. However, the move-or-fire means that they would be a lot weaker than pistoliers for that duty; right now Outriders can remain competitive for move-and-shoot as their repeater guns mean that they can make up for lost time in shooting, but regular handguns will not have said luxury.

Admittedly, the fast cav bonuses are nice if you need to flee, and redeploy after rallying. However, using outriders for melee against any but the lightest of foes is abysmally stupid. Seriously.

Offline chadgamer

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2009, 05:17:13 AM »
First of all...

However, using outriders for melee against any but the lightest of foes is abysmally stupid. Seriously.

 :icon_question: Your point? Why would outrider horses ever be in contact with something that isn't "the lightest of foes"?

Betterr save...until someone throws a fireball at you or lets fly with the Repeater Bolt Throwers. At more than twice the cost of a handgunner, this is not a winning proposition.
Against a fireball, i have a 6+ save, instead of none at all(like handgunners). And that goes for anything strength 4(which is probably the norm)

An extra S3 attack. Whee...why aren't you using spearmen?
Every attack counts, and with Empire, you're gonna have to get used to strength 3. I've dealt the last wound to countless generals/monsters/units/etc with horses. If you want some math to prove my point: against a T3(many things are toughness 3, and that is all that an outrider horse should ever be in contact with) I'll need 4+ to hit(most likely) and a 4+ to wound. That is an extra wound per 4 horses on average.

Fast cav movement is nice I'll admit. However, the move-or-fire means that they would be a lot weaker than pistoliers for that duty; right now Outriders can remain competitive for move-and-shoot as their repeater guns mean that they can make up for lost time in shooting, but regular handguns will not have said luxury.

Push the outriders up a flank, and march block and shoot from there. Short range, march blocking, threatening a flank, and BS4 is all much better than what handgunners can do.

Admittedly, the fast cav bonuses are nice if you need to flee, and redeploy after rallying. However, using outriders for melee against any but the lightest of foes is abysmally stupid. Seriously.

Warmachines? Wizards? Warmachine hunters? Flank charges against anything that is not unbreakable or stubborn that is fighting one of your blocks? I would definitely attack any of these. And if you are fleeing and rallying, you don't necessarily need to ever be in melee. For example: position your outriders in charge range of something, then flee as a reaction, then counter charge with something that IS meant for combat. Or use the feigned flight rule, and shoot whatever charged you after you rally.
"My steam tank charges your 5 Chaos Knights with 5 Steam Points"
"Bring it on"
"I do 6D3 impact hits" *roll* "Strength 6" *roll* "10 wounds, you need 4s to save"
"I saved 5"
"Your 5 frenzied Chaos Knights are dead"

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2009, 07:22:53 AM »
I also used my outriders in the odd occasion as a flank charger the negate the ranks sometimes add a wound to CR and in most cases grant another +1 for the flank bonus even if one or two of them fall. Works not only against the lightest but foes but against some knight units (wouldn´t charge them into frenzied chaos knights though).

They ARE better! but they should be as they are elite and more expensive. I have about 40 handgunners and I never use them this edition as I prefer crossbows. (really liked the last edition rule that gave them additional d6 range on the first shot).


Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2009, 03:35:01 PM »
-Paying 3 times the cost of a normal handgunner to receive a 6+ save is not a bargain under any circumstances. Your unit is that much more fragile to shooting. Calling it an advantage is just silly.

-If you're wizard hunting, you'll only be able to get 3 outriders in base contact,2 if said model is on an infantry base. Sadly this only makes a difference against Wood and Dark Elves though or Goblins or other Empire as:

High Elves have ASF and will kill your outriders before they can harm your casters...(why aren't you using knights for this job instead?)
Daemons have their wardsave.
Chaos Dwarfs, and Ogres have superior toughness as do the Orc casters.
Skaven casters can hide in the back, as can Lizardmen casters. The Bretonnian Damsel can hide behind her knights too.
Warriors of Chaos casters can play smackdown with your outriders.

Of course this begs the question, why aren't you using Knights for this duty instead? They aren't any more magically vulnerable to rubber lance syndrome than their outrider counterparts.

One final note Chadgamer; Outriders cannot move and shoot with feigned flight because they count as having moved for purposes of shooting. Sorry man.

Offline chadgamer

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2009, 02:12:41 AM »
I'm not saying that outriders are the best at wizard/flank/warmachine hunting, I'm saying that they are better than handgunners. Of course they aren't better than knights, that is what knights are for.

One final note Chadgamer; Outriders cannot move and shoot with feigned flight because they count as having moved for purposes of shooting. Sorry man.

I thought different, but that makes sense, my bad.

Just so we all know why we are talking about Outriders with handguns:
The truth though is that giving Outriders handguns defeats one of the main reasons you would take them over Handgunners (more shots on a lower frontage); why aren't you taking the cheaper handgunners instead?
I've given several reasons why to take Outriders instead of Handgunners. And your replies are confusing
why aren't you using Knights for this duty instead?
I do, but I would definitely take Outriders over Handgunners.
"My steam tank charges your 5 Chaos Knights with 5 Steam Points"
"Bring it on"
"I do 6D3 impact hits" *roll* "Strength 6" *roll* "10 wounds, you need 4s to save"
"I saved 5"
"Your 5 frenzied Chaos Knights are dead"

Offline mwalsh867

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2009, 05:54:08 PM »
Wow.  Quite a lot of discussion, and a lot of good points.  TBH, I put the handgun option in because:

1) they retain shooting ability, but you aren't giving up as much firepower to move them.  It "costs less" to have them be mobile.  I know, that's a little backwards thinking, but it means *I* would feel better repositioning them because I haven't paid out the nose for the repeaters.  Why not take pistoliers then?  Longer range, higher BS, possibly better AS.
2) army books are FULL of useless options.  But options are a goor thing to have.  WHo in their right mind gives any character light armor? Or gives a general a 15 point longbow?  Or the rally magic standard?  Or a level 3 wizard?  Point is, someone MIGHT want that, and if it isn't breaking anything or ruining a concept, why not?
3) on a more fluffy note, I don't think having "wacky wild inventions" is a good base-case.  With handguns, they aren't necessarily engineers testing things out on the battlefield.  Maybe instead they're well-equipped road wardens (or highwaymen ...), reiters a la Total War Medeival 2, or (slightly anachronistic) dragoons.  Options!

I'll close by again pinting out they cost the same in this list with the repeater handgun option as they do in the current book.  If the handgun option doesn't work for you, you aren't being hurt by it.

Thanks for the interest!!
-Matt

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 09:31:24 AM »
Actually I was wondering at the rally standard. When would it actually be used?

If you're fleeing you've dropped your standard so it has no effect.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian

Offline Folken

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Re: OPTIONS Empire: Special
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2009, 08:47:19 PM »
Actually I was wondering at the rally standard. When would it actually be used?

If you're fleeing you've dropped your standard so it has no effect.
Only if you broke from combat.