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Author Topic: Army Book: Greatswords  (Read 11813 times)

Offline kk14

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Army Book: Greatswords
« on: February 06, 2010, 10:01:50 PM »
Mostly I think greatswords are fine as they are. They are not uber-elites like other armies have, but their are stickier, more durable and harder hitting than our other state troops. The bane of knight armies, they are a wonder with a warrior priest and/or the icon of Magnus and/or a BSB.

That said, I hear people complain about them a lot, finding them distinctly sub-par. That said I want to keep their usage and feel the same.

I propose: 1 unit becomes core if your general is a General of the Empire. The standard bearer of a unit that is core may not take a magic banner unless it belongs to the General's 'Heirloom' special rule, and the general must be deployed within six inches of that unit. (Bodyguard)
Greatswords may take a magic banner of up to 25 points (this cannot be on the Core unit allowed by the general).

With these bonuses, should we reduce the points cost of Greatswords by
one 1 to 9?

Other things I considered were:
- Give greatswords shields but no handweapons. This makes them more resilient to shooting but cannot be abused for a 2+ save in Close Combat.
- An 'heirloom' rule of their own: a Champion can take a magic item from the talismans or enchanted items lists worth up to 25 points.
- Detachments serving greatswords conserve their detachment special rules and abilities up to six inches away.
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2010, 10:26:35 PM »
one unit is core with a Gote
8 points

Done.
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Offline Northern Storm

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2010, 10:55:59 PM »
I think Greatswords should have an optional T4 upgrade. Inner circle Knights have the S4 thing and that makes sense. So would the Greatswords. They are arguably the toughest men in the Empire and have had to endure, fight through and survive more to earn their place than almost anyone else, Knights included.

A seasoned, battle-heardened, scarred, tried, tested and true infantry veteran would easily be just as tough as an Elector, Priest or Wizard Lord.

That's my view.

Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 01:52:15 AM »
Would it upgrade them to a rare choice?
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Offline Joelatron

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 02:57:32 AM »
can take magic banner up to 25 points.
If GOTE is general-banner allowance goes up to 50 points for 1 unit and 1 unit becomes core...on the assumption griffon banner goes down to 50 points.

Stay at 10 points/model

Offline Northern Storm

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 04:30:35 AM »
Would it upgrade them to a rare choice?

That, or remain special with a 0-1 limit like IC Knights as 0-1 Core in 6th edition.

Offline commandant

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 06:07:11 AM »
Give them a magic banner worth 50 points.   Also make them immune to fear.   Cost 10 maybe 11 points and your problem is solved

Offline Finlay

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 11:09:22 AM »
I can't believe you want to keep them the same pts, or even increase them? insane.
BG are what, 13 pts?
which gets you +1 M, WS, Leadership, Attacks, and better initiative, and hatred, and ItP, and a 50 pt banner, and 1 25 pt magic item on the champion.
 and the payoff is -1 save and 1 less strength (but not striking last)

Now, I'm not saying they shold be as good as BG (who are probably one of the most broken units in the game, and basically an "auto choice", especially with the ASF banner) but 10 pts is way too much for our rubbish greatswords, who you need to put a character with icon of magnus in to even be worthwhile at all, and need a BSB nearby to be optimised too.

They either need to be buffed, or dropped in points.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 12:14:34 PM »
I think they are great as is. That said, the few changes I would suggest would be:

Units of Greatswords can take Magic Banners up to 50pts. None of those complicated restrictions you put forward kk14.  As it is, pretty much all elites for other armies can take magic banners - ours should be the same.

Drop points to 9 each. That said, it isn't really required - other armies need to boost the cost of their elites, but anyway...

1 unit as core per GotE in the army. That way it is scalable to larger battles. This same condition should apply to Templar GMs - 1 unit of IC Knights as core per GM.

Easy. Simple. Most other proposed changes make them more complicated, and don't change them very much. As for the increased T or S - I say no. This type of upgrade is unneccessary and overpowering. Stubborn, FPA and strike last GWs do the job allowing them to hold - they don't need the T. S on the other hand, I am slightly tempted by, however Humans with S4 should really be quite restricted and expensive - hence characters and elite knights only.
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Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 10:56:21 PM »
Wow, Warlord, you humble me. I spent a good long while trying to make my ideas simpler, and only made them more and more complicated.  :icon_rolleyes:

I totally agree with what you (and many others) say: 9 points, magical banner of up to 50 points.

I also like the 1 core/GotE. That does scale better. How would you scale small point battles? Just not let them be a core option?

One problem with allowing them to be core is that some people will spend 45 points for a free stubborn speedbump. Is that reasonably balanced? I can't tell.

Greatswords:
Quote
9 points per model
Greatsword ..........M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
Count's Champion M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld8
Unit size: 5+
Equipment: Two-handed sword (great weapon), hand weapon, Full Plate.
Special Rules: Stubborn, State Troops
Upgrade one Greatsword to a musician for 6 points.
Upgrade one Greatsword to a standard bearer for 12 points
Upgrade one Greatsword to a Count's Chmapion for 12 points
The standard bearer can carry a magic standard costing up to 50 points.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 11:01:53 PM by kk14 »
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 12:04:13 AM »
Perhaps drop the cost of command a bit?

5 pts for muso, 10 for standard and champ.

Also have minimum Unit Size 10+. I think 5 is too little, though it does seem to be the trend nowdays with elites.

And people can currently take units of 5 flagellants as a core choice speedbump.
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Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 12:52:38 AM »
Make the full command 25? Any reason? Isn't 30 pretty standard for elite infantry?

Agree on minimum unit sizes, although Greatswords make a more durable speedbump than flagellants.
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 01:03:51 AM »
hardly durable, 5 t3, 4+ save models. will get pwned by almost anything. Plus stubborn 8, without a BsB nearby, still fails around half the time does it not?

Fairly ridiculous to think that might be overpowered!
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Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 01:18:43 AM »
The probelm isn't how hard they are to kill, but the fact that they are almost free. 5 elf elites would cost close to twice as much, and die almost as easily.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 02:38:46 AM »
Make the full command 25? Any reason? Isn't 30 pretty standard for elite infantry?

I am of the opinion that when a model is a certain point cost, the cost of the command should match accordingly. For the most part, I think this is adhered to in most books.
2-5pt model = 3pt muso, 6pt stand + champ
5-8pt model = 4pt muso, 8pt stand + champ
8-10pt model = 5pt muso, 10pt stand + champ
10-15pt model = 6pt muso, 12pt stand + champ
15-20pt model = 7pt muso, 14pt stand + champ
20-30pt model = 8pt muso, 16pt stand + champ
30+pt model = 10pt muso, 20pt stand + champ

Agree on minimum unit sizes, although Greatswords make a more durable speedbump than flagellants.

More durable, but less reliable. Hence the choice between each.

hardly durable, 5 t3, 4+ save models. will get pwned by almost anything. Plus stubborn 8, without a BsB nearby, still fails around half the time does it not?

Fairly ridiculous to think that might be overpowered!

Flagellants are less durable though. 5 t3, no save models. With WS2. Its the unbreakable part which adds reliability, but they are going to die much faster and easier than Greatswords.

The probelm isn't how hard they are to kill, but the fact that they are almost free. 5 elf elites would cost close to twice as much, and die almost as easily.

I don't get what you mean? The player still has to take an GotE over an Arch lector to get them. And the elves (HE) have always strikes first, and the Dark Elves have a whole bunch of extra fancy special rules also. And yes, Eternal Guard die.
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Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2010, 03:47:11 AM »
You make a good point re. the almost free thing. To better explain what I thought: I think that it would have been unbalancing to have a set of greatswords costing no more than 50 running around as a core slot. It's great value for the speed value. With a minimum unit size 10 that would be fixed... which it will be.
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Offline Minsc

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 07:54:52 AM »
Am I the only one who think that Greatswords should get a shieldoption?
Fair enough, they'd probably have to stop calling themselves greatswords, but at least it would balance them abit. (They are not worth 10pts/modell in their current form.)

In addition one unit of Great Swords should be able to buy a magical banner worth up to 50 pts, and with a GotE one unit of Great Swords can be taken as core.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 08:01:52 AM »
Am I the only one who think that Greatswords should get a shieldoption?
Fair enough, they'd probably have to stop calling themselves greatswords, but at least it would balance them abit. (They are not worth 10pts/modell in their current form.)

In addition one unit of Great Swords should be able to buy a magical banner worth up to 50 pts, and with a GotE one unit of Great Swords can be taken as core.

There are quite a few on the forum who do think we should get heavily armoured swordsmen (which is what they would become) however I believe kk said at the beginning of the thread that a shield was not an option for the purpose of this exercise.

Other people have suggested the magic banner and core option also. Is common thought amongst most Empire players I believe.
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Offline commandant

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2010, 08:00:50 PM »
I can't believe you want to keep them the same pts, or even increase them? insane.
BG are what, 13 pts?
which gets you +1 M, WS, Leadership, Attacks, and better initiative, and hatred, and ItP, and a 50 pt banner, and 1 25 pt magic item on the champion.
 and the payoff is -1 save and 1 less strength (but not striking last)

Now, I'm not saying they shold be as good as BG (who are probably one of the most broken units in the game, and basically an "auto choice", especially with the ASF banner) but 10 pts is way too much for our rubbish greatswords, who you need to put a character with icon of magnus in to even be worthwhile at all, and need a BSB nearby to be optimised too.

They either need to be buffed, or dropped in points.

I would point out that I suggested a rule making them immune to fear, therefore getting rid of the need for the icon of magus.   I feel that our elite infantry, that have been through many wars, would not scare easily and therefore a rule like
Been Here Before
This rule represents the fact that Greatswords are veterans of many battlefield.   Greatswords are immune to fear and any terror causers will only cause fear.
would be perfectly acceptable.   People seem to forget when the compare Greatswords to Black Guard and Choas Warriors that because of their detachments Greatswords should always be fighting on their own terms.   At ten points each, with the 50 point magic banner and the Been Here Before Special Rule, they are fine.   hell I would even pay eleven points for that set up.   
I fail to understand why this forum has so much Greatsword hatred on it.   They are, at least I believe, one of our best units.   Sure they are not a point and click unit, they need to be used in conjunction with their detatchments in order for them to have the best effect.   But the detatments more than wipe out the speed advantage that Knights have over them.   Sure Knights have a 1+/2+ save compared to the Greatswords 4+ save but if you get the charge in there shouldn't be much striking back at the Greatswords in the first round of combat anyway.
I notice that this forum is very knight heavy and I think it is time that we took notice of our infantry and how powerful it it.   People seem to think that our detachments are there to counter change and take away flanks.   More often than not they are there to be charged and set up a flank charge for the parent unit.   Sure infantry player need to re adjust their thinking because of the power lists that are out there but that is no a good reason to declare that our Greatswords are useless just because they are not horribly broken like the Black Guard

Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2010, 02:49:35 AM »
Commandant:
We can already give greatswords the fear/terror thing with the Icon of Magnus. Having that on all greatswords would make them practically unbreakable near a BSB, and probably the best tar pit unit in the game on their own. While cool, and useful, I don't see it making much sense. Immunity to fear and terror is usually something granted by supernatural and magical powers in WHFB.
Having run away before doesn't mean they won't this time!  :icon_wink:

About shields: I considered them before posting this thread, and decided that a 2+ save really only belonged on knights and some dwarves. It would be as if we had a unit that was a mix of Hammerers and Ironbreakers, but cheaper and not T4.

That said, if you can make a convincing argument for either case, I will certainly reconsider them. That is the entire point of the open discussion, after all.
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2010, 03:19:11 PM »
I really think you overvalue stubborn 8.
Yes, you could get stubborn 9 with a reroll, but then need to invest in characters accordingly.

considering the prevalence of actual unbreakable units, I really don't think immune to fear and stubborn 8 GS would be broken at all, and they certainly wouldnt be the best tarpit in the game.
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Offline commandant

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2010, 04:43:49 AM »
Commandant:
We can already give greatswords the fear/terror thing with the Icon of Magnus. Having that on all greatswords would make them practically unbreakable near a BSB, and probably the best tar pit unit in the game on their own. While cool, and useful, I don't see it making much sense. Immunity to fear and terror is usually something granted by supernatural and magical powers in WHFB.
Having run away before doesn't mean they won't this time!  :icon_wink:
I am not sure I agree that if you did not run away before then you would not run away now.   In fact the fact that you survived not running away is a strong argument for not running away not now.   Maybe you have a point but far too many things that greatswords should have fought before and won against is going to make them run away.   For example it is not fluffy that a veteran in full plate of armour, having fought his way through lots of stuff would fear a slow moving skeleton thing.   Maybe we should consider that they would not suffer fear from things that are US1 that cause fear or something but that causes the rules to be very complex

Offline Grutch

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2010, 05:25:35 AM »

1 unit as core per GotE in the army. That way it is scalable to larger battles. This same condition should apply to Templar GMs - 1 unit of IC Knights as core per GM.

In full agreement with you on this one. 

I still want skirmishing zweihander detachments WS 3 but I'll take what I can get.

-Grutch

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2010, 07:16:21 AM »
I would like to see a core unit that are skirmishing state troops with light armour and great weapons for flanking units. I think that 6 points a model would be okay.

Like 4th edition greatswords.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Greatswords
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2010, 01:08:52 PM »
I would like to see a core unit that are skirmishing state troops with light armour and great weapons for flanking units. I think that 6 points a model would be okay.

Like 4th edition greatswords.

Or free company with more options.
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