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Author Topic: Greatswords (A simple change)  (Read 3500 times)

Offline Nehemiah

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Greatswords (A simple change)
« on: August 11, 2011, 09:41:56 PM »
Greatswords: 10 Pts/Model
Unit Size: 10+
Wargear: Great Weapon, Full Plate Armor, Hand Weapon
Upgrades: Musician +5 Pts
                 Champion +10 Pts
                 Banner +5 Pts
                 One unit may take a magic banner worth up to 25 Points
                 Champion may take wargear up to 15 Points

Stats: Mv  WS BS S  T  W  I  A  Ld
           4     4    3  4  3  1   3 1   8

Special Rules: Stubborn, State Troops.

The simple addition of adding +1 Str and a little flexibility with the command group should put great swords on par with the elites of other armies. now striking at str 6, making them much more deadly to heavy infantry. Most people are suggesting a WS or T boost, while that would be cool I don't think it goes with the fluff. The greatswords, having to carry around and practice with those heavy swords would inherently get a lot more upper body strength than the average state trooper. With the added options of a magic banner for some extra spice. Also like many other elites (swordmasters, blackguard...) the Champion can take a little bit of magic items. So the big question... HAVE I NAILED THE SWEET STOP WITH THE GREATSWORDS?

« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 09:44:16 PM by Nehemiah »

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 12:58:52 AM »
I'd love to see greatswords go to S4 base.  And I'd love to be able to take a magic banner (25 points) without a GotE.

They'd have to go up to 12 points/model though. 

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Offline LegionsofOdin

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 07:08:10 AM »
i think those improvements would be fair at 10 points a model. the banner and magic equipment are paid for separately. i think str 4 makes sense and would be a good incentive to make up for always striking last they may be out elite troop but they still also die in troves just like our other state troops.

personally as they are right now i think they should drop in points.   compare them to our basic swordsman that do they have over them?

great sword- 10 points ws4 s3 t3 i3 ld8 great wep, 4+ armor stubborn ( pros- hits like a brick, doesn't run easy. cons- strike last)
 swordsman- 6 points  ws 4 s3 t3 i4 ld7 5+ armor and parry ( same weapon, skill equal to better saves, initiative 4, more likely to run doesnt hit as hard.

so looking at it yes the great swordsman hit like a brick but the pary save and striking in initiative order i think make up for that. so whats left. leadership 8 and stubborn. well stubborn units cannot use generals inspiring presence.  so unless they have a lord of the banner of discipline they are stuck at leader ship 8 not really a bad thing but has its down fall so i value all that to be about 2 points a model i think is a fair price.

so in all reality as is i think great swordsman should be only about 8 points a model.  an extra strength being 2 points a model i see as a do able. wounding big nastys on 3's would be nice. 

so at 10 points a model at str 4 i think would be fair.  with the abillity to take a 25 point banner.

Offline pippin_nl

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 01:51:04 PM »
Let's compare them to some other races:

Beastman (Bestigors)

+1 movement
+1 strength
+1 toughness
-1 leadership
-1 armour save
primal fury instead of stubborn
+2 points

Dwarfs (Hammerers)

-1 movement
+1 weapon skill
+1 strength
+1 toughness
+1 leadership
-1 armour save
+2 points

Strength +1 should clearly cost at least 2 points, maybe 3 is better as I think the Empire should not have infantry equal to more fighty armies as Dwarfs and Beastman. Our army strength is combined forces and we should also not forget that we have access to hatred (warrior priests).

Offline Newt

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 03:51:07 PM »
I would be completely happy with only changing it so they can always take a banner at up to 30 points.  I fielded 50 in teh last tourny and tore apart daemon units, I used to be anti GS until I played a large horde....it never got below 30 models.  With a combo of Timewarp and hate...prepare to feel the pain.

Offline Nehemiah

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 05:22:40 PM »
I Agree that they are "fine" as they are now, but I just wanted to address the changes that I think will/should be made in the next army book. As far as not having strength 4 because "that should be left to the dwarfs and beastmen" I think that's not right. the average dwarf warrior is str 3. the average beastman infantry is str 3, as our swordsmen are str 3. when you get to their Special infantry, such as hammerers,beastigors they all have strength 4, to represent a increase in combat prowess and overall power in combat. Why should the empire not have that?? are not greatswords are Special infantry?

Offline Newt

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 06:12:39 PM »
Lore and creature build I would say.

Compare the biceps of a beastigor to the biceps of a human, thats where I see the bonus coming from.  And dwarves are just tough strong and slow.  if anything I would rather take +1 tough as they are hardened vets.  Str 5 is perfect for fighting most enemies.

I do see your point, but how much do those special dwarfs and beasts cost?

Offline LegionsofOdin

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2011, 07:18:19 PM »
I have no problem with them as is I think they may be slightly over priced emphsis on slightly. If there were to be a change I would rather have t4 for being hardened vets over s4 for the heavy weapon and armor. But then people start the argument of should they be as tough as ogres.. lame excuse I think since desecration and offs are t4 all our heroes and lords are t4 and they are just human also.


Offline pippin_nl

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2011, 08:46:57 PM »
I Agree that they are "fine" as they are now, but I just wanted to address the changes that I think will/should be made in the next army book. As far as not having strength 4 because "that should be left to the dwarfs and beastmen" I think that's not right. the average dwarf warrior is str 3. the average beastman infantry is str 3, as our swordsmen are str 3. when you get to their Special infantry, such as hammerers,beastigors they all have strength 4, to represent a increase in combat prowess and overall power in combat. Why should the empire not have that?? are not greatswords are Special infantry?

Actually I do agree they should have the option to gain S4 (Innner Circle), but that it should be +3 points not +2 as I think we should pay a little more than Beastman and Dwarfs, so 13 points not 12.

Offline Nehemiah

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2011, 08:50:59 PM »
Lore and creature build I would say.

Compare the biceps of a beastigor to the biceps of a human, thats where I see the bonus coming from.  And dwarves are just tough strong and slow.  if anything I would rather take +1 tough as they are hardened vets.  Str 5 is perfect for fighting most enemies.

I do see your point, but how much do those special dwarfs and beasts cost?

Ermm.. Dwarf Hammerers are WS 5, S and T 4 and Ld 9 with great weapon and even stubborn. and they are 12 points.
            bestigors are WS S and T 4 with greatweapons and heavy armor, also similar to the greatswords, but much better and at 12 points a model. So they all have much higher stats than our lowly greatswords, even if we give them S 4 Hammerers and Bgors are still far superior, so balance is kept.

Offline Empireguard

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 11:10:19 PM »
I think our state troops are fine now we are in 8th

Swordsmen are the best anvil unit (as they always have been).
Spearmen are the best damage unit when not in horde formation (do the math)
Halberdiers are the best damage unit in horde formation.

The missile troops probably need to get some free light armour.

I think 8th ed basically fixed most of our issues, when we get a new codex I don’t see any big changes happening. Tougher flaggies would be nice, more theme (So one unit counting as core for each associated lord, General = Great swords, AL = flaggies, grand master = innercircle knights …etc), I4 greatswords, some new monster unit and making the steam tank roll an artillery/2 = steam points for the turn (stop the whole 3 wounds and it sits there thing).
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Offline Athiuen

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2011, 03:07:42 AM »
If the steam tank had to roll an arty dice for steam points it would never be taken.  If there is ever a chance of failing that roll you're boned.

300 point model + First turn misfire = waste of points
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Offline jhig

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2011, 01:00:11 PM »
Quote from Legions of Odin:
"well stubborn units cannot use generals inspiring presence."

I looked up the rule in the book and I don't see where this is stated.

Rule says"Stubborn units are always steadfast". Nowhere can I see where it says they cannot use the inspiring presence. Am I right? As I intend to use Greatswords in a tournament soon.

I also think they should have the use of a magic banner in their own right..

Offline The Chosen of Sigmar

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Re: Greatswords (A simple change)
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2012, 03:17:47 PM »
leadership 8 and stubborn. well stubborn units cannot use generals inspiring presence.  ...

In 8th edition Stubborn rule states they always counts as being steadfast. In the General Rule book on page 54 bottom right you can see that steadfast units can use the General's leadership when within range. So Greatswords are leadership 9 within general's inspiring presence range.

But I do agree they would benefit from being able to use from a magic banner...
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