Author Topic: A notification (Read 13187 times)

Lord Alexander · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2007, 10:32:38 AM »

Someone had a great idea!!! Let the elves kill every "evil" thing in the Tor. Then we give that land to the brets and they kill the elves. After the brets winn we put so much taxes over the trade that the brets will go home

But I say we slaughter the elves anyway

And remember all: "A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy"...

clausewitz · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2007, 10:45:19 AM »

I made that suggestion Lord Alexander. Careful readers would have noticed that I was being a little facetious. The reality is that I would not want the Empire to act is such a dishonourable way towards our allies.

You say slaughter the elves anyway... such talk would lead to an interview with the inquisition where I come from. One does not wish for slaughter... unless one is under the influence of the malign powers...

Veldemere · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2007, 10:54:08 AM »

The elves are keen to wipe each other out (shame it has to be on our land), with their duplicitous ways all the HE have done is reduce the assistance they will get from the Empire, let us carry on as we were.

Blackthorn · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2007, 11:03:21 AM »

Folks,

Everyone needs to take a step back from this debate.

The current states with this region:
The whole south, centre & south-eastern area is devoid of any human settlements.
The entire region is cursed by the plague of Warp-Stone. If we can’t remove this stain there will be no human, Dawi, Elf presence in these areas – Solid Fact.

My initiative of the Heart-Stone of Tor Thana is an opportunity to remove Warp-Stone from the area and transform this region back to its previous bountiful state.

Having a fully re-activated Heart-Stone is nothing to fear.
Having Elves re-colonise the city is nothing to fear, Tor Thana will act as an island of stability in this region.
The same is true of the Dawi plans to build a new Karak at the Giant’s Tump. It also will act as an island of stability.

The Druchii ambassadors have constantly been interfering in race negotiations. Remember it was a Dark Elf who highlighted the Empire/Skaven mutual supportive fluff at Bugmans which destroyed our own agreement.

Since the Dawi have aided the Asur at Tor Thana, the Druchii have been on every evil race forum trying to find allies of their own to aid them at Tor Thana. To this end, according to the Druchhi ambassadors the “Heart-Stone” will stop all Dark Magic, de-animate all undead troops, kill all chaos tainted creatures, etc, etc. This has never been the case, it’s an environmental storyline. Not some super anti-evil weapon.
And to their credit they have managed to get other races to abort their own fluff objectives for this region and go after the Heart-Stone storyline at Tor Thana.

Skaven want to corrupt the Heart-Stone and use it to produce super pure Warp-Stone.
Vampire Counts – (I don’t know what their plans are for the Heart-Stone, they no longer attack your town but are also at Tor Thana).
Chaos & Beasts – (Battle at Tor Thana now).

Of course the major part of this depends of GW picking up on the Heart-Stone idea. Without it, the victor of this region will have a desolate, barren, unproductive wasteland.

Please, look at the big goal for this region. Look beyond the discord being sown by the Druchii ambassador.

Blackthorn

Tillmann Spyri · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2007, 11:19:33 AM »

Blackthorn, accusing me of sowing discord is a tad ironic (If you don't understand this, don't worry. Just my own museings.). I have done nothing but highlight somthing that seemed relevent, and had gone unnoticed. Trying to manipulate infomation, whirlst IC, never ends well. Now Gilidas has arrived, I have said nothing on this matter, not even my own opinion. The opinions I gave before are irrelevant, as the situation is not quite what I thought. This is not a discussion about the Tor. Throughout this topic, I have made my bias plain. In the case you mention, of the whole skaven thing, it was I who clarified what was ment. The agreement had already failed before that, please don't pin the blame on me.

The Tor is just one part of this. Asur are trying for similar settlements all over the forest. Let us not discuss the Tor. I have made a post, summerizing the whole situation at Tor Thana, in "General fluff objectives" on warvault. If you want to add anything to it, feel free. There is also a post on the Stone, if you want to talk about that.

Blackthorn · « **Reply #30 on:** July 16, 2007, 11:50:02 AM »

Tillmann, I have sent you a PM about the discord thing.

Blackthorn

farmer · « **Reply #31 on:** July 16, 2007, 11:53:14 AM »

Quote from: Giladis on July 16, 2007, 08:21:54 AM

We plan to clear the ares now dominated by beastmen, orcs, undead and other evils, heal them and than settle.

This sound like a good deal to me. First we must except that the area we are talking about has already been lost to the forces of evil. It might be Empire land but we have very little to no control over it. If the Elves are prepaired to fight and die to clear the land then go for it. Wouldn't it be better to have an ally in that area than the enemy. Just think when the next Chaos invasion happens the Elves will already be here. I for one am all for closer ties with the Elves the Dwarfs can not be trusted as they have shown us their true colours.

wissenlander · « **Reply #32 on:** July 16, 2007, 12:23:03 PM »

The majority of the Dwarfs didn't want a treaty. You were in the minority, unfortunately, Blackthorn.

As far as the Tor Thana debate: This is all well and good, but if it isn't inacted in this campaign, it probably doesn't have a chance post campaign. GW doesn't seem to continue story lines pertaining to campaigns so any efforts would be closed off in a couple of weeks. If they were to have a new Tor (which may not be so bad) then there's nothing that we can do to influence trade or diplomacy. It will be on Elf/GW terms at that point.

I don't necessarily mind a reestablishment of Elves or Dwarfs in the Great Forest. It would go a long way to settling an area which we ourselves don't want to/can't at this time. However, what makes us think that they won't use this as a staging area next time there's a trinket that pops up. Probably not likely, but you get my point.

Blackthorn · « **Reply #33 on:** July 16, 2007, 12:25:46 PM »

I must query this.

GW official fluff from the campaign:
The Dawi forces have been acting as a bulkhead against the Green hordes trying to meet up with Grimgor.
Dawi protecting Empire inns.

There has not been any negative fluff between Empire & Dawi kingdom forces.

I and your own human ambassadors have tried to establish closer ties, between our two races. We are mentioning the “Hunters of Sigmar” in our battle reports for example.

How do you come to the conclusion that we cannot be trusted?

Blackthorn

wissenlander · « **Reply #34 on:** July 16, 2007, 12:30:26 PM »

And I am happy that there isn't any negative fluff. But there is talk about a grudge week against us if we do well, not exactly good tidings in the works for us if we have a good winning streak.

So far relations have been good Blackthorn, but the way negotiations happened early on and the strained relations there from, if something happens out of line...well it's a powder keg waiting to happen.

I hope to avoid this, but the potential is there.

Veldemere · « **Reply #35 on:** July 16, 2007, 01:58:16 PM »

Well, I think this has been true all along that if you look at most forums Blackthorn and some others seem onmipresent 'guiding' us. This in itself is one of the problems, we must not forget that the dwarves, as part of each of their pacts, offered races assistance in taking parts of the Empire (ironic that the only one it did not work with was the Brets).

I have no problem with High Elves having a settlement in the Empire and if they had come to us to discuss there is a chance it may have been supported (even the dwarves told us they are palnning on stealing our land) but they have consistantly said we are below them and not worth negotiating with which is exactly what led to them hiding on their little island scared of anything coming close to them across the water.

After this they will go back to their ivory towers and hide until their new army book comes out (at which point I will be made to eat my words I'm sure).

And as for the heart-stone it is a bit of fluff invented by one person and not supported by GW at all. If anyone is with me I would change the fluff to reflect that Tor Thana is actually the last hiding place of the care bears and if the forces of good release them the land will turn green and all orcs will turn back into care bears, oh and Sigmar comes back in the shape of Papa Smurf.

For a race that bears grudges for millenia this will be the second one written in hte tome by the dwarves in the last 3 weeks, their postmen must be happy that there will not be many christmas cards this year!

Blackthorn · « **Reply #36 on:** July 16, 2007, 02:33:45 PM »

Count, you are in fine form today.

Perhaps GW will ignore the whole Heart-Stone idea. Even if they do, it has drawn Chaos Mortals, Chaos Beasts, Skaven & Vampire Count forces away from their previous targets and moved their attention to Tor Thana. (A wild goose chase of 2 weeks which has aided the Empire in this region. For Skaven & Vampire Counts where defiantly focusing on your settlements or interfering with your fluff).

If they do pick it up, well there is the prospect of regeneration for this area. And decent fluff advancement for all the good aligned forces involved.

Regardless the whole Heart-Stone & Tor Thana business has given the Empire breathing space in this region – which ever way it pans out.

Blackthorn

Mark Perry · « **Reply #37 on:** July 16, 2007, 02:53:07 PM »

The trouble with campaigns like this is that everyone gets ideas about "Fluff" wouldn't it be great if...., or I think we should.....(insert fanciful idea here)

The fact is that if the elves (High and Dark) want to battle it out over this place then fine let them. Neither have the resources to maintain a settlement in the Empire, and besides GW would never run with it.

After the campaign the dwarfs will be busy putting more grudges in their book, the elves will be bickering among themselves, Chaos will be chaos and things should get back to normal. (if you can call fighting with undead monsters and beastmen normal!)

Me personally I'm with the care bares, just don't let those My Little Ponies come back, man are they scary

clausewitz · « **Reply #38 on:** July 16, 2007, 02:54:08 PM »

Please not the smurfs... I can't stand smurfs!

Seriously though, I find it difficult to keep up with who said/did what on this or that forum. As Wissenlander says when there is so much information and misinformation floating around and the subject material is such that it tends to cause inflammed opinions then problems are never far from the surface.

Blackthorn, you should know that when you came to us with the Tor Thana plan originally we did agree to help (dispite some members havig reservations). You gave us the information and asked for help. We respected that and thats the main reason we agreed to help. (I even posted some battles there)

If the Asur want our help they should have followed a similar course. If you want to influence fluff that affects many factions you really should get as many of them on board as possible.

We negotiated at length with the Asur, we polled our members and agreed terms, but the poll on Asur.org was allowed to fizzle out and no conclusion was made. Compare this to the way they have treated the dwarfs (for years their great enemy) and there is little need to wonder why people here are somewhat reluctant to follow Asur plans.

Patch · « **Reply #39 on:** July 16, 2007, 03:09:33 PM »

My Lords and General
Let them all fight over that damned haunted ruin. Let them form caravans of their forces, their brave (and not-so-brave), their doughty fighters, their horrors and their machines of war. Let them rage over something that was great... centuries ago.
Let the ruins take them.
I say to the men of the Empire - let them exhaust their strength over this folly. And our folk will be waiting for the victors to help them from our realm.
Hans Von Wynter (IC)

Michael W · « **Reply #40 on:** July 16, 2007, 04:14:36 PM »

My sentiments exactly. The more people other than us fighting there, the better. Why not spread out our efforts now and aim to clear the rest of the forest while the other races butcher each other over a mythical ruin?

Tillmann Spyri · « **Reply #41 on:** July 17, 2007, 05:42:51 PM »

Jus so you guys know.

http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopic.php?p=482187#482187

Quote from: Giladis

An Elf doesn't ask a human anything. If they want someting they should come and ask and they better be polite at doing it.

This is our land from which we only temporarely pulled our forces out to more important battle grounds. Now that we have resources to return here and our agendas are concentrated here why should we ask humans ( who are completly inferior to us ) to grant us what is allready ours.

I know that our great empire might be in a decline but I for one shall not bring it any lower by asking permission form the Keigh-mon. Reapproachment with the dwarfs placed enough strain on our pride but at least the Dwarfs are worthy as the second speakers while men are uncivilised barbarians that in their dilusion believe themselves to be the greatest nation in the world. Was it not fore those acursed kin of ours they would be now nothing more than a challening game for our nobles in the overseas estates.

So speak not of such things.

If we see fit to contact the Empire we will do so but not as beggers but as superiors.

So speaks the Admiral!

OOC: At the moment Empire can do nothing to prevent us or the dwarfs in their goals and any post war action would just destabilise the entire region into a worse state than now. The Empire will have to learn to face it that Elves and Dwarfs have decided to use their might to secure this past of the world, lay back and enjoj the benefits.

wissenlander · « **Reply #42 on:** July 17, 2007, 05:47:25 PM »

Thanks Tillman. A word of caution to everyone. Don't go jumping on him because he's a Dark Elf. Yes they plant the seeds of doubt into everyone's ear, but still, I'm sure he's not lying. I'm going to go investigate this myself.

Aquilifer · « **Reply #43 on:** July 17, 2007, 06:16:06 PM »

Don't go crazy yet guys. So far its basically me (Aquila) and Giladis arguing. We really haven't heard from any of the other HE players on the site. Just wait a bit for this to get more views.

wissenlander · « **Reply #44 on:** July 17, 2007, 06:24:26 PM »

Wise words. I'd say heed his words. I know Aquilifer to be level headed so we can trust what he says. Thanks for coming over here as an ambassador yourself.

Ostermarker · « **Reply #45 on:** July 17, 2007, 06:48:43 PM »

No offense to everyone, but the HE "acting in character" yes, do that when your playing or posting or writing, but not now. It would have been better if you had come here OOC and talked it over with us, so that we can, at best mention you in our fluff, at worst acknowledge what you're doing.

This seems to be the actions of the generic 'Good Guys'. The Dwarfs (their actions towards the DE, as well as interfering with our negotiations) and now the HE.

The 'Bad Guys' seem to be more friendly than the 'Good Guys', for example the Skaven have put us into their fluff, and told us about it (in fact there's one on this board looking for fluff exchanges). And , of course Tillman, who's working with the DE, but seems to be more in touch with fluff affecting the Empire than we are.

Please, from now on, and this is a plea to anyone reading, if your racing is going to be writing fluff about another race, at least put it on one of their forums. Then they will know and will feel more inclined to your fluff then being told by someone, like Tillman, who really is an intermediary.

Thank you for listening to my rant (another one).

Aquilifer · « **Reply #46 on:** July 17, 2007, 08:09:43 PM »

Ostermarker, I'm sure you're echoing what a lot of other Empire players are thinking, and for that I am truly sorry. I really wish relations between our races - well... forums anyway - hadn't deteriorated as much and as quickly as they did, and all I ask of you is to be patient and, for further info, go to the Asur.org thread where we are discussing this problem right now.
One of the reasons I (and I hope others) are so displeased with the situation - besides the obvious reasons - is that I don't remember ever seeing the proposal on Asur.org (which I believe to be the most official HE forum) before it was put on Warvault. Maybe I'm just not looking at the right threads/websites (and I would love to be corrected), but this came "from above" for a lot of us.
Now don't get me wrong, I think that the colony thing is a good idea (see below), but the way it has been handled is downright embarrassing.

In lieu of an official delegation to discuss the plan, I guess I should lay it out for you as I see it and in less of an "IC" way so that some progress on the issue can be made.

The Kingdom of Ulthuan has decided that the so called 'decline' of our race is unacceptable, and are reasserting our presence across the world. It is plain that the Old World, and more specifically the Great Forest, is an important theater in our never-ending War with the vile forces of Chaos.
With the onset of the Nemesis War, this fact has become ever clearer, and we now feel that it is time the Asur step in and purge the Forest of its dark Taint.
We will rebuild the city of Tor Thana and based around this new colony, will cleanse the forest.
That is not up for debate.
It will be done, as you have already heard. However, there is no reason for animosity to develop between our two races. There are many reasons why our colonization of Tor Thana and the surrounding lands (don't misinterpret me, just a sphere of influence that is normal for a city) is a beneficial force for both of our races.

-The land around Tor Thana is uninhabited except by foul creatures
--Thus it does not hurt the Empire in any economic or political sense
-Any colony is far too small to pose any threat to Imperial power
--Thus there is no military threat to the Empire
-A HE presence would stabilize the region and provide an additional bastion against the various threats(beastmen, orcs, skaven, vampires, regular chaos, etc.) which would help Imperial defenses in the area
--Thus a decrease in pressure on the Imperial Army
-A HE presence would increase trade, commerce, and the exchange of knowledge between HE and the Empire
--Thus extremely lucrative for Empire
-Tor Thana is currently an important battleground in Nemesis War, concentrating large amounts of enemies in a single location
--Thus also decreasing pressure on Imperial Army (albeit only for duration of war)

In addition, we are willing to negotiate special trade rights with Imperial settlements in the region, which would spread wealth across this (as far as I'm aware) impoverished territory.
This is not a military colonization, rather, it is one of protection, commerce, and a newfound interest in the wellbeing of the Empire. We need you to have a stable frontier here so you can focus on being the meatshield against Chaos in the East

So...that's what I can think of for right now. More or less this is what I was saying at Asur.org (a lot of the details are copy-and-paste

). We would love to hear your feedback on the issue. Please, though, be constructive (you guys have done a very good job of that faced with such outrageous behavior on our part earlier in this thread).

wissenlander · « **Reply #47 on:** July 17, 2007, 08:32:29 PM »

Hmm, if this were enacted years ago I may have stayed a High Elf player.

I like the idea and am glad that at least someone has bridged the gap.

I can see this as a potential commerce boom in the area after the conflict is over. As Clausewitz has stated there wouldn't be much of a threat because they would be outnumbered and would have to deal with us friendly like to have their city.

Ostermarker · « **Reply #48 on:** July 17, 2007, 08:44:42 PM »

In (one of my) character:

"Well, as the negotiator for Master Boris Hertwig, I can see many benefits to be gained from this settlement. I can see this as economic strongpoint for both races, as well as a diplomatic and politic benefit, bring both cultures closer together."

Thinking: If they have settlements in the Empire, they are more likely to help us in war.

Really, Aquilifer, that wasn't aimed at you, part of it was aimed at Gildas' comment that I'm paraphrasing: "It's ok what we did because it was in character". Just a small point but would an Orc player be allowed to headbutt his opponent? That would be IC.

I think that the land thingy would be allowable, but I find it annoying that our land is being divied up by the GDA without even an acknowledgement to us.

Oh, and if I sound angry or anything, I'm a teenager and I've been on an adrenaline high over Sunday/Monday so I'm feeling a bit down, and listening to angry music, so I apologize.

clausewitz · « **Reply #49 on:** July 17, 2007, 09:25:59 PM »

Aquilifer, my post in the first thread is very much like what you proposed. I had assumed the plans were to be as you have explained them. It's a shame that this wasn't made clear before so many people became "offended"* by the apparently high-handed attitude the Asur high command seemed to be taking.

[*IC offended, I'm sure nobody was personally offended.]

At this point the Asur need to convince our regional commanders (especially Veldemere as UK commander) to gain support from the Empire. I would echo Ostermarker sentiment that ooc discussion would best serve this. In character there is a lot of attitude on both sides that usually results in no progress.

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Author Topic: A notification (Read 13187 times)