Topic: WYSIWYG

[rufus sparkfire]

threads about wysiwyg are rubbish.

[phillyt]

Actually the rulebook is not in anyway liberal.  You need to represent all items on models or units.  Vehicles need to be represented with the items they come with.  Granted, in units, one or two guys holding grenades is all you need.  On vehicles though, if you have a hull mounted heavy bolter, you need to have a hull mounted heavy bolter or at least have it on a fixed mount.

[phillyt]

Page 47 in the blow out box.  It says models MUST represent their equipment though characters are allowed some variation.  It then mentions that some tournaments will be super strict but casual games people are fine with a small amount of variation as long you explain it first.

One of the things I love about 40k is the WYSIWYG.

[phillyt]

Actually no, WYSIWYG is heavily supported at even casual tournaments.  It is spelled out in the character section because of the variety of options.  For other units, you need to use the units and options provided including base size.

[phillyt]

The burden of proof its that you dont need to represent the model. You can't use terminators for scouts our a bolter as a rocket launcher.  Unlike the fantasy rules which spell out limited substitution, 40k requires precision since nobody picks up dropped equipment. Instead you allocate wounds, but heavy, special, and sergeants need to be shown.

[phillyt]

Well no, it is a valid discussion. Unlike fantasy, things like vehicles can haver dozens of variations. Being able to look at the model and tell what it has is vital.

Units have many of the same issues. That scouts. Some have cc weapons and pistols. Some have shotguns. Isn't it important to know who has what in the unit?

[Finlay]

At the end of the day, it's about communication isn't it. And aseeing as we don't play tourneys, and probably will mostly play each other or some people at the EB, it doesn't matter! If the things we are using are clear, and not muddled distinctions in squads, then it's fine.

It's about reducing confusion because there are so many options for all the squads I guess.

Although I think the rulebook is pretty clear in saying you don't need to be wysi

Although I'd be upset if I was playing philly not in a tournament, and he was funny about wysiwyg with me- in our games last week I used a heavy bolter as a lascannon and a melta tallarn as a grenadelauncher, and I'd expect anyone not in a tourney to let me do that. I didn't have any other heavy bolters so there was no confusion over what was las and what wasn't. if you see what I mean.

Philly, would you have a problem with me using the metal cadian and tallarn sarges? The cadian has a bolt pistol, the tallarn has a plasma. But they don't really.

[rufus sparkfire]

It makes me not want to play 40K at all.

[phillyt]

I wouldn't say no, but I would expect you to get the last cannon model eventually. Everything in my 40k army is wysiwyg. I'd I need a different load out I buy more models. At 3000 point games there is too much going on to keep track of. Touts part of the reason 40k requires wysiwyg.

Why is that rufus?

[Finlay]

I'm going to get a lascannon... When I get myself in action and send some huardsmen to cannon for him to convert.

Philly, there was a thread on bolter and chainsword where someone argued that using a predator with assault cannon on top without any sponsons to represent an assault cannon razor back was as bad as using a shoebox.

But that is just absurd internet nonsense which no one believes.

[FR1DAY]

I was considering that very same thing for my marines. However I did think it was a bit confusing as I'm having 2 predators as well. The forgeworld razors have turrets though. However shoeboxes is a bit strong.
I've seen some great conversions of chimeras with rear mounted pred turrets. They look much better.

[phillyt]

Then that would be fine. What bothers me are people who constantly use laser cannon, but only represent them with the same rocket launcher model all the time.

[GamesPoet]

I like using what's been modeled when I bring units to a game.

However, for casual play, if someone I'm playing wants to try a new weapon, or combo of weapons, or use an older model for something else because as modeled it doesn't match the list they want to use, as long as its communicated I'm usually ok with that.  The idea is to have fun and not get hung up on everything.

If its a competitive situation, then the two parties probably need to agree as to whats going on, and communication seems to be as must.  And if a competitive circumstance includes someone else setting the rules being used for it, then when a player signs up for such, they need to deal with whats being used to govern such.

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And separate issue, but further back on this thread I just read through 5 posts in a row from PhillyT.

[phillyt]

A classic example of a Rufus mod edit!

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rufus_mod_edit

But I am the same way GP.  If we are just playing then of course I let people sub in other heavy or special weapons to try.  But I generally prefer to have everything represented.  There are times I pay for things I know I won't use because I modeled it on the vehicle.  But I like that my opponent can look at smoke launchers on a land raider and know I bought smoke launchers for the land raider!

[Gneisenau]

Besides, in the Golden Age of Neodym, WYSIWYG is that much easier to achieve, since you can replace equipment easily.

So much better than the Dark Age of Masticated Bubblegum.

[phillyt]

I love that adjective.  Masticated.

I do hate magnetized models though.  Nothing like watching someone move their dreadnaught and having the arms all fall off.  I knew a guy who magnatized his sponsons but did it so poorly that they kept falling apart and he would just pile the bitz beside the tank to show it had sponsons.  Glue the models together in the most commonly used variation like a man!

[Gneisenau]

Nothing like watching someone move their dreadnaught and having the arms all fall off.  I knew a guy who magnatized his sponsons but did it so poorly that they kept falling apart and he would just pile the bitz beside the tank to show it had sponsons. 

Seriously though, when done properly, it's very stable. The problem with magnetizing is that it's easy to do it improperly...

[phillyt]

I like just building the models and calling it good.  I name all of mine inorder to add some depth to them.  I like to think they have a specific job.  With my 4 dreadnaughts I do leave the gun arms un glued because they can just slide on and off the peg without too much difficulty.

The worst case of magnetizing I have seen are these 3 Carnifex I bought on barter town for a buddy.  The magnets aren't strong enough apparently because everything droops downward and makes the poor creature look totally flaccid.

[Gneisenau]

That reminds me how nasty the old metal Carnifices were to put together. Still nothing compared to the ultimate limb-dropper that was the old metal Liktor. If you didn't weld that thing together with a blowtorch, it fell apart as soon as you looked at it.

[GamesPoet]

The poor creature probably wasn't successful in his hunting activities.  Or maybe he's an older dude with an aging body.

[phillyt]

The poor creature probably wasn't successful in his hunting activities.  Or maybe he's an older dude with an aging body.

Could be!

I detest the lictors.  They suck SOOOOOOO bad to keep together.  I have 3.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I like using what's been modeled when I bring units to a game.

However, for casual play, if someone I'm playing wants to try a new weapon, or combo of weapons, or use an older model for something else because as modeled it doesn't match the list they want to use, as long as its communicated I'm usually ok with that.  The idea is to have fun and not get hung up on everything.

If its a competitive situation, then the two parties probably need to agree as to whats going on, and communication seems to be as must.  And if a competitive circumstance includes someone else setting the rules being used for it, then when a player signs up for such, they need to deal with whats being used to govern such.

- - - - - - - - - -

And separate issue, but further back on this thread I just read through 5 posts in a row from PhillyT.

I have to say I agree with all GamesPoets points here.  Glad I am not the only one who read this as Philly having a conversation with himself!
In my group people dont mind if you represent certain things provided they are worse than what is on the model.  Eg noone cares if you have plasma pistols on models which are not really there, and are in fact bolt or laspistols.  However if you were trying to do it the other way around, people would probably take issue.

We tend to allow things for one offs as well.  Noone is rich enough to buy loads of models for different combos.  If you have a lord model, and say it has X weapon for a game, as long as  this is explained clearly and you dont try to hide it we have no issues.   I tend to buy/convert models to field my prefered configurations of lords eventually, but it does take time.