Topic: What if....

[Alexis]

It was a terrible nightmare, but Karl Franz had awoken with great relief! The world had not, infact, ended. Perhaps it was something he had eaten the night before. Yet in all his glee, Karl forgot the trip step on the way out of his chamber and promptly stumbled down the stone staircase, breaking his neck (quite horrifically). The bells ring out in Altdorf.....The Emperor is dead!

What happens next? How would you progress the story of the Empire? Would there be civil war or a swift and bloodless transition within the family?

[Baron von Klatz]

Hahaha, swift and bloodless, what a funny concept for the Empire! 

Definitely civil war that would put the war of the three emperors to shame. With multiple leaders being backed by the colleges of magic, engineers, knightly orders and foreign powers. One massive civil war to claim the crown.

I think that would make a interesting setting for 9th.

[Yvain]

Some guy on 4chan has been trying to write something similar. He has a three way split for the empire post end times victory with 3 dudes in and L Huss as Grand Theo. Also Gelt has decide he should be emps.



In your scenario you would have to kill Boris off some how as he was basically going to be voted in until Karl took the election.

[Gankom]

I'd prefer something different myself. They've already done the three emperors. What about a fight within the family?

I also really liked the idea of one of the provinces separating, or at least arguing for more independent autonomy while still remaining part of the empire.

Heck let's go out. The next Emperor is voted in smoothly, without a problem, but his first order of business is annexing the shattered remains of kislev! Instead of yet another brutal civil war, let's have a united Empire trying to expand it's borders.

[Oxycutor]

In WFRP, when Karl-Franz died in Empire in Flames (Which has since long been retconned),  there is civil war, a few Electors were killed, and eventually Heinrich Todbringer, son of Boris, who became Graf of Middenheim after Boris' death won and married Emmanuelle von Leibewitz of Nuln.

Are you planning to have anything from Storm of Chaos or End Times to have happened?  As that imminent Chaos Incursion could affect how much of a civil war there might be. 

Civil war isn't inevitable, I think with so many external threats there would be a bit more pragmatism to balance the egoism.

Sent from my thingamajig via wadyamacallit

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

In the current situation of the Empire (i.e. 2520), I should think civil war is rather unlikely. There certainly would be much haggling, and the crown would probably go to the candidate with the most cash in his coffers.
Of course, if you are intent on a certain scenario, there are always ways to achieve that, as human actions always can have unpredicted outcomes.

[Alexis]

I could see it developing into a real game changer. To break down each province:

In the vacuum of zero imperial leadership I believe a lot of people would be interested in grabbing land, titles and anything else they want.

Ostland would likely attempt to engineer a border dispute with Hochland and invade. The two provinces dislike each other and Ostland are very aggressive not to mention larger. Perhaps Middenland would get embroiled in this as an attempt to prevent pro-Ulrican voters from annexing one another, given Middenland's obvious interest in the Imperial Authority, it would need every vote going to defeat the Sigmarites.

Gausser of Nordland is very expansionist and aggrieved at the loss of Marienburg. I doubt he would have the power to mount a campaign against it, but given the lack of Imperial authority to defend the individual electors, I wouldn't rule out Marienburg taking action against Nordland to once and for all crush any claim on their independence. (and because they are pig rich and would enjoy crushing the Nordland navy, which is apparently next to non-existent due to the Norscans). Infact, I could see the merchant league in Marienburg attempting to overthrow Gausser and install a puppet ruler in Nordland.

I'd be concerned for the Moot. I think while backs are turned, it could come under serious pressure from Averland or Stirland who would want to impose themselves to garner the vote. I doubt you would see a direct annex, because that would remove the vote from the equation and it would be regarded as warmongering to wipe out an entire province. I believe both Stirland and Averland would come to blows over who 'owned' the Moot's vote, with Averland the likely winner due to wealth. (However, a timely orc invasion could see them brought to their knees). Meanwhile, Talabeccland watches on eagerly. Perhaps even funding differing factions to keep the war alive. Their warlike nature would want to see the closest rivals weakened. Averland or Stirland's aggression on the 'poor Moot' would be a perfect casus belli for 'Halfmanitarian Intervention...(of course, at the price of that lovely elector vote).

Nuln is very interesting. Emmanuelle von Liebwitz is utterly ruthless and has charm and looks. Whether or not she would want to be Empress is another matter, given that she appears to enjoy throwing parties and not doing much ruling. Of course, imagine all the parties she could throw with the added Imperial Authority. I'm sure she could find someone else to do the ruling, behind the scenes.

The Church of Sigmar would undoubtedly throw it's weight behind Karl Franz's Reikland heir. Stability is what they want and having all the power leave Altdor would be a disaster. Having it go to an Ulrican would be a catastrophe. Three votes is nothing to be sniffed at. I imagine tension would be very high between religious factions. There could be riots and sectarianism, possibly even war with between Reikland and Middenland.

Perhaps the time for a theocracy would be right. These electors lack the honour of true churchmen and no longer represent Holy Sigmar with their lack of piety. Their corruption is disgusting. The time is surely right for things to change. Could this mean tactically winning the election and disbanding the office of Emperor from the inside, or a religious rising? Those three votes would go a long way toward the former.Ulric's followers are sure to have a different view.

Meanwhile, Bretonnia watches on. Those borders are looking quite tasty to them. Perhaps it would be time to teach the Empire a lesson in chivalry and warfare, for the lady, of course. Not the land and wealth...

Tilea would likely be awash with mercenaries leaving for the Empire, with Elector's buying all the troops they can muster for their 'political campaigns'. Would this bring the land great wealth, or leave it open to would be invaders? When the cat's away the rats will play.

[GamesPoet]

Alexis ... an interesting approach, although I'd alter it a bit, but out of time to share for the moment ...

[mottdon]

Another approach would be for Karl, after growing weary of the constant threats to the Empire's borders, amasses a large force (with Dwarf assistance) and takes off across the World's Edge Mountains to face and quell the Orc menace in their own homeland and see if he can discover and root out the source behind these Orc spawnings. 

He leaves Kurt to preside over the Elector Counts councils, but being a man of action, it soon becomes apparent that he is not the man for the job.  Weeks turn into months.  Months turn into years.  After receiving no word from the Emperor or from their Dwarf allies, fears begin to rise as to the success (or failure) of the crusade.  Rumblings begin to brew among the council and soon Electors start calling for a new Emperor to be appointed.  Kurt, try as he might, is soon overwhelmed with the political schemes being played and having no evidence or support of Karl's success,  succumbs to the overwhelming pressures of court. 

Over a great period of endless debates and minor skirmishes, the Elector count of Middenland finally gains the upper hand after assisting Nordland and Marienburg negotiate a settlement which maintains the independence of the city, yet brings them back into the protection of Nordland and the Empire (with promises of support from the crown) in exchange for tax support.  He is praised as a leader capable of uniting the Empire and is officially voted into office.

After a time of prosperity and peace, Karl returns to the Empire.  The people are split with their loyalties.  Karl, being successful (or so he believes) in eliminating the Orc threat, claims to be the reason for the peace within the Empire.  Todbringer, claims the unification of the Empire as the reason for peace.  Both men are great warriors capable of defending the Empire and both have been elected to the office of Emperor.    Who deserves the office?  Which man is the rightful Emperor?  YOU DECIDE! 

 

[Deuce]

As Fidelis says I think major civil war or Empire-wide upheaval in 2520-1 is unlikely if the scenario is merely "Karl Franz pops his clogs". If an Age of Three Emperors happened every time an Emperor died, the Empire would never have got started. In fact the AoTE came at the end of a very long period of buildup and instability, following the decline in the Hohenbach era, the Black Plague, the assassination of Mandred, two centuries of very weak Emperors, and then finally powerful provincial leaders challenging each other. By contrast the central authority and Imperial office under Karl Franz is about as strong as it has ever been since before the AoTE itself, and there's no real reason to suppose that the loss of one individual would upset the apple-cart.

In terms of the succession, the Reikland candidate has to be the strong favourite (as the 6th edition army book indicated). It is almost certain that the Reikland candidate would pick up all the Sigmarite church votes which, combined with his own, means that he'd have over a quarter of the available votes automatically and almost any other candidate would have to get three of the temporal elector votes just to be in the game. A reasonably credible Reikland candidate would probably pick up the votes from Stirland, Ostland, Wissenland and very possibly the Mootland as well, which assuming a majority of votes is required would be enough (in the absence of Averland, any three of those four might be enough).

Reversing the perspective and looking at it from the Count level up, are there any really strong challengers to the Reikland candidate? The days of all-powerful Counts which resulted in the civil wars of the past are largely gone and few of them seem to have the force of personality or independent means that would be needed to carry an election. Theodoric Gausser would probably want it but is unlikely to pick up much support. The most obvious challenger is still Boris Todbringer (not least because he'll automatically pick up a second vote), but he faces the same problems he did last time only moreso: he is now twenty years older than he was when he contested KF, and he faces sustained opposition within his own province to an extent he didn't last time, both from beastmen and from Leopold von Bildhofen.

What's more, there's a question to what extent he's a real alternative. If the Electors want a relatively strong Emperor to lead them through difficult times they might as well stick with the Reikland office which has the advantage of incumbency and has done a reasonable job to date - and since it's the most likely selection it's also the most obvious one. If they want a weak Emperor so they can go their own way they're more likely to go for a fringe Elector with either relatively little power or relatively little interest - Gausser, Wolfram Hertwig, or maybe Emmanuelle von Liebewitz, rather than an experienced and capable Boris Todbringer.

However a spanner that could be thrown into the works is a contested succession within the Reikland itself, which might stir the pot enough that it's no longer a shut-out. Thanks to nearly thirty years of vagueness we have very little idea still about what the Imperial family actually looks like. The most canonically valid heir is his nephew Wolfgæng, but the Jack Yeovil books also give us his son Luitpold. It might be that Wolfgæng is a placeholder heir until Luitpold comes of age, in which case there could be an interesting power struggle if Luitpold is only a year or so short of majority when his father dies. The third potential candidate is the most mysterious: the Emperor's brother, who has not been named and may not actually exist (although has been mentioned in passing in a novel or two). In the scenario that Luitpold is unavailable (whether through nonexistence or excessive youth), and the rumours that there's something Not Quite Right with Wolfgæng (as in Empire in Flames when this scenario played out), KF's brother could be an interesting factor.

The absence of a credible Reikland candidate would then leave the Sigmarite bloc looking around for someone to support, assuming the clerical electors didn't stick to their guns with Reikland and split the Sigmarite vote. Stirland is the usual favourite for non-Reikland Sigmarite votes but there are a couple of possibilites. This might also open the door for Helmut Feuerbach to have a tilt at the title himself, and might be able to secure votes from Wissenland (as he's rumoured to be sleeping with Emmanuelle) and Hochland and Nordland (with a promise to reduce the power of Ostland). That might in turn prompt Valmir von Raukov to try to secure the nomination himself and canvass for Sigmarite support. Or the Sigmarites could even form an unholy alliance with the Ulricans and support Boris Todbringer as the lesser of two evils.

Really it should be possible to contrive almost any scenario depending on what you want to happen, as has been mentioned. All sorts of things could happen to send the election in an unexpected direction. But all things being equal I suspect another Reikland Emperor is the most likely outcome.

[Ursa Doom]

A civil war in the Empire would have been amazing, but instead we got whatever it was that we got.

[Yvain]

Another approach would be for Karl, after growing weary of the constant threats to the Empire's borders, amasses a large force (with Dwarf assistance) and takes off across the World's Edge Mountains to face and quell the Orc menace in their own homeland and see if he can discover and root out the source behind these Orc spawnings. 

He leaves Kurt to preside over the Elector Counts councils, but being a man of action, it soon becomes apparent that he is not the man for the job.  Weeks turn into months.  Months turn into years.  After receiving no word from the Emperor or from their Dwarf allies, fears begin to rise as to the success (or failure) of the crusade.  Rumblings begin to brew among the council and soon Electors start calling for a new Emperor to be appointed.  Kurt, try as he might, is soon overwhelmed with the political schemes being played and having no evidence or support of Karl's success,  succumbs to the overwhelming pressures of court. 

Over a great period of endless debates and minor skirmishes, the Elector count of Middenland finally gains the upper hand after assisting Nordland and Marienburg negotiate a settlement which maintains the independence of the city, yet brings them back into the protection of Nordland and the Empire (with promises of support from the crown) in exchange for tax support.  He is praised as a leader capable of uniting the Empire and is officially voted into office.

After a time of prosperity and peace, Karl returns to the Empire.  The people are split with their loyalties.  Karl, being successful (or so he believes) in eliminating the Orc threat, claims to be the reason for the peace within the Empire.  Todbringer, claims the unification of the Empire as the reason for peace.  Both men are great warriors capable of defending the Empire and both have been elected to the office of Emperor.    Who deserves the office?  Which man is the rightful Emperor?  YOU DECIDE! 

 

That would make a cool Empire vs Empire campaign. You could also throw in Dwarfs on Karl's side and Vampires for Boris for some more flavor.

[ZeroTwentythree]

I wouldn't rule out Marienburg taking action against Nordland to once and for all crush any claim on their independence. (and because they are pig rich and would enjoy crushing the Nordland navy, which is apparently next to non-existent due to the Norscans). Infact, I could see the merchant league in Marienburg attempting to overthrow Gausser and install a puppet ruler in Nordland.

Hell yeah!

Over a great period of endless debates and minor skirmishes, the Elector count of Middenland finally gains the upper hand after assisting Nordland and Marienburg negotiate a settlement which maintains the independence of the city, yet brings them back into the protection of Nordland and the Empire (with promises of support from the crown) in exchange for tax support.

Hell no!


 

[Hoodling]

There are some good ideas here, but is there a particular reason you want a civil war? The Empire's normal enemies not worth your time? 

[Gankom]

I still lean towards seeing an expansionist Empire instead of yet another internally wracked one.

What about an Empire army trying to colonise a fallen dwarf hold to try and gain it's technology/relics? Or colonizing Norsaca and bringing the word of Sigmar by hook, crook or hammer?

[Baron von Klatz]

Really awesome idea all round!

I think some of these should tie in to that future warhammer campaign the forum's been talking about.

A civil war in the Empire would have been amazing, but instead we got whatever it was that we got.

A community civil war? 

There are some good ideas here, but is there a particular reason you want a civil war? The Empire's normal enemies not worth your time? 

Just to spin things up really. It offers alot of possibilities for narratives and background advancements. It also shows how bada** the Empire is by being torn up on the inside and still able to send the forces of chaos packing.

I still lean towards seeing an expansionist Empire instead of yet another internally wracked one.

What about an Empire army trying to colonise a fallen dwarf hold to try and gain it's technology/relics? Or colonizing Norsaca and bringing the word of Sigmar by hook, crook or hammer?

The Empire expanding is also a great idea. I think colonizing Albion would be better as it would offer a good offensive position against Norsca.

[CarolineWellwater]

(( You know… I’m kinda burnt out with the standard civil-war or border-war history of the Empire.  It seems like the Empire can't have but one Emperor in a row, without undergoing some gigantic crisis.  With all the civil wars and border wars going on, it's a wonder the Empire has the population it does.  I guess the rarest thing in the Empire, these days, are kids.  Geeze, even the Byzantines and Romans didn't suffer this much when an Emperor died. 

Anyway, what about a completely different option.  Instead of the two GW standards (one form or another of Civil War or Border War), why not something worthy of the whole idea of a new age?

So… how about this…

Marienburg, being wealthy and well connected, wants to find a new route to Cathay, with the goal of making a permanent, by-sea trade route and a trade-city on the Cathayan coastline. 

As such, realizing that, while they have a vast navy, their… army is not necessarily the most experienced or even the most loyal, as coin is not the best of insurance for loyalty.  Mercs are known to have the "Not-Getting-Paid-Enough-To-Die" clause in their contracts, which is quite annoying.  Anyway, Marienburg diplomats come to the Empire Elector Counts to request the services of the Imperial Army… for these large, oversized, bags of "You-Really-Do-Like-Our-Independence" studies and reports, that look and feel and weigh surprisingly like Imperial Gold Sovereigns.  Almost... as if... they are Imperial Gold Sovereigns... though, everyone knows that would be so crass and banal, not to mention pedestrian, of Marienburg to do that.  But everyone also likes Imperial Gold Sovereigns… *cough* er, I mean, well researched and thought-provoking epistles.

In other words, Marienburg hires the most experienced human army ever, to launch a huge expedition to Cathay, with the goal of opening up a non-Elf-dominated overseas trade route, and a Marienburg-loyal city along the Cathayan coast.

This lets you include basically any Imperial Elector or province who wants a lot of gold… er… um… I mean, who wants to become intellectually stimulated by such a great amount of well funded doctrinal thesis.  And, not only that, you can expand into an area that GW has, for the most part, overlooked.

Shoot,  you could even have to competing expeditions… one funded by the Tileans, who wish to go overland, thus avoiding any Elf problems, and the Marienburgers, who are convinced that their navy can outdo some pointy-eared, flop-haired, effeminate-dandy Elf-sailor. 

And, in doing so, you offer a "Global" campaign.  Instead of the standard "Emperor Dies, Empire goes into Civil War… again" or "Emperor Dies… *insert EVIL army here* invades… again", you know can have a global event that... oddly... can help reshape how the 9th age looks.  ))

[Doc J]

This is a fun scenario way to throw a monkey wrench, all I can say is that if this scenario merged with my fluff it would make things very interesting for my characters being so far from home.  I would like to see a new province created, if only to give us a new color scheme to try out.

[ZeroTwentythree]

There are some good ideas here, but is there a particular reason you want a civil war? The Empire's normal enemies not worth your time? 

Given that this is an Empire specific forum, it's a good way to get a lot of our armies playing against each other.

[Bartolo Miachevelia]

Well first of all I'll not consider 8th fluff .

If Karl died before SoC then maybe Valtend would be the new emperor guided by Luthor Huss ,under his reign  preachers  and  flagellants  seek out chaos cultists and mutants, evil and innocents are tortured and killed alike while the whole empire is permeated by a new religious fear

[Alexis]

There are some good ideas here, but is there a particular reason you want a civil war? The Empire's normal enemies not worth your time? 

When you have a collection of egotistical aristocrats and religious fanatics who are told to take part in a popularity contest, when is that ever likely to not end in at least some sort of scuffle?  There is simply too much to grab by 2520+1 for the likes of Gausser, von Liebwitz et al not to stick their nose in! (in my view).

I believe that it is precisely the fact that the reign of Karl Franz was so successful and prevented all sorts of shenanigans from breaking out that in the wake of his death, there is going to be a land grab/war. So many little slights and resentments surely occured during his time in power that were never really dealt with by the electors, because they couldn't. This is a time to teach those pesky 'insert token gesture province' a lesson!

[Ursa Doom]

A civil war in the Empire would have been amazing, but instead we got whatever it was that we got.

A community civil war? 

Don't knock it until you try it.

[Xathrodox86]

I love the idea and it's a shame that GW never went that way, but chose ET and then AoS...

BTW I don't know  why, but I can't stop seeing a mental image of Karl Franz stepping on a banana peel and doing a somersault down the stairs with a really goofy look on his face.

[mottdon]

I think that Civil War is one of the most crucial aspects of the Empire.  It is the ever-enduring internal struggle that the Empire has always faced.  You take that away, who can stand against us?  We would rule the entire world.  We have the technology to best our foes, we have the tactical discipline to spread our power, and we replicate like rabbits!    

It has always been the internal strife that has allowed our enemies a foothold.  Sure, we've seen Civil War before in the Empire, but that's what keeps things interesting!  Which province will flourish?  Which will be next to be decimated?  Who will respond to the call for aid?  The Empire (as a whole) is much more than a point and click army.  The political fluff should play out the same as our armies do.

Now, I like this idea of expanding our borders.  Even retracting them somewhat (as with Marienburg).  Maps change.  This could make for an interesting story.  It could even apply within our borders.  Will the Drakewald ever be tamed?  Only one way to find out.

Personally, I like the idea of a "Risk" type Empire-vs-Empire campaign to see which province gains prominence.  Each area grants certain resources and access to other areas.  Pick a province with your friends and duke it out!

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

WFB has/had plenty of opportunities for Imperial campaigns, involving various races and without any need to kill off Karl Franz.

- Bring Marienburg back into the Imperial fold
- Crusade against Chaos/Undead/Arabya
- Eradicate the threat of Norsc pirates
- Annex the Border Princes
- Bring order to Tilea
- Protect or expand the colonies (Neuland, Sudenburg, Heldenhammer)

For those intent on civil war, this could still happen as a result of the campaign: Karl Franz could die or be presumed dead in the campaign. The Elector Counts left behind in the Empire elect a new Emperor. If Karl Franz is not dead, the new Emperor refuses to step down. Or, if Karl Franz is dead, the returning EC refuse to acknowledge the new Emperor, because they did not have the opportunity to cast their votes, leading in both cases to civil war.