Topic: Army book: Mortars

[kk14]

I admit the mortar problem still has me more or less stumped. I can not for the life of me find a way to not change how they are used and make them worth taking. I talked to a friend, and the best ideas we came up with were:
2-for-1. We don't like this because so far, universally, Bolt throwers are the only war machines to be 2-for-1. Furthermore, this would allow an Empire army with 8 mortars at 2000 points for only 600 points in war machines.

Indirect fire: My favourite, still not very empowering. Basically, Mortars would not need line of sight to fire at a target, so long as a unit in the army has line of sight.

I realize that both of those come in the 'special rules' category that I hate to introduce, but I don't see a way to switch around their stats and keep their usage the same. Making them S4 would be too much, even if we lost the AP rule.

Other ideas: re-roll scatter dice (not fluffy, nor much better).
Engineer upgrade (a la dwarves) (re-roll arty or scatter).

[Warlord]

I actually don't think Mortars are broken.

I more think that with the introduction of Helstorms, as well as our more cramped special slot, they just aren't taken as often because there is an easier and more powerful alternative for a higher points cost.

I personally think they just need better engineer support. I think perhaps for each engineer choice, you can take a Mortar as Core. That way, you can still have a maximum of 8 Mortars at 2000 points, however you have to also spend the points on engineers, and are severely hurt in the characters department. This of course will need to align with fxied up engineer rules.

[Fandir Nightshade]

How about different ammuniton?

Something like flaming attacks

something that grants -2 armour save

something like shrapnel that give them re rolls for the to wound rolls?

[der Hurenwiebel]

yup Currently mortars are 75 pts give them HE shrapnel rounds for +25 points bringing them back up to the OLD cost of 100 pts per +2 s overall pinpoint and plate.  attach any other re-rolls etc to the engineer with a points value or not but these would be the "magic item" upgrades the engineers could buy, or conversely have integrated into his already existing profile.   

[kk14]

I really really like the flaming attacks idea.
I am reluctant to change the mortar's strength value because then it more directly competes with the hellstorm, the same with re-roll to wound.

I agree warlord: they are not broken: in fact, they are terribly well-balanced. Unfortunately, they have to compete with cannons, hellstorms, and all our special slots. I want to find some thing that keeps them in the same role in the army, and doesn't make them much more powerful.

Indirect fire does this: the mortar will likely stay undamaged for most of the game, throwing its S3 template around, but how you use it, what you shoot it at, etc. will not change very much. Flaming attacks as an upgrade would also accomplish this, enabling the mortar to threaten monsters with regeneration and such with a direct hit, but nothing else, keeping its anti-infantry role as its primary one. It could already snipe at such monsters, just now it actually threatens them.
How much should such an upgrade for incendiary bombs cost? 25 points is too many: that puts it at the same cost as Doom divers and screaming skull catapults (the screaming skull catapult has magical, flaming, panic causing ammo). 10 points? Flaming is not that powerful, after all.

I plan to make many changes to the engineer: I just haven't figured out what they will be. It may be that we come back and revisit all the artillery when we create the engineer; same with the general and captain if we make them have infantry abilities. For the mean time I want to do the ground work on the unit choices first. The heroes should be built (mostly) around what we have for units, not vice-versa.

That said: something I have in mind for the engineer: When you take an engineer, you may take one Mortar or Cannon as a Core choice. Or perhaps just a mortar.

[der Hurenwiebel]

so make the HE rounds an option I thought that bit was clear in my verbiage, players could choose the cheap or pricy mortar bombs.  Indirect fire is a non issue as you can Intentionally Miss your stated target by purposefully mis-stating the range.  Hey if you can accidentally drop mortar bombs on your own troops then technically anything under the plate gets hurt whether it was your stated target or not.

also really anything with explosive or gunpowder based damage has either hot lead or actual flames involved so it should all count as flaming.

[Warlord]

I like the idea for flaming attacks as an upgrade. I would say 10 pts, as Dwarfs have the rune costing 5 points, and they are the 'War Machine' masters afterall...

That said: something I have in mind for the engineer: When you take an engineer, you may take one Mortar or Cannon as a Core choice. Or perhaps just a mortar.

Great Idea...

I personally think they just need better engineer support. I think perhaps for each engineer choice, you can take a Mortar as Core. That way, you can still have a maximum of 8 Mortars at 2000 points, however you have to also spend the points on engineers, and are severely hurt in the characters department. This of course will need to align with fxied up engineer rules.

[Northern Storm]

 2 for 1 like Dwarf Bolt Throwers. Hell yes.

It's the only way.

[kk14]

Mortars:

75 points
Mortar M- WS- BS- S- T7 W3 I- A- Ld-
Crew. M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A3 Ld7
Number of crew: 3
Equipment: each crewmember carries a hand weapon.
The mortar can be upgraded to have incendiary bombs, which grant flaming attacks, for +10 points.
Special Rules: Indirect Fire(the mortar can target any unit within range so long as an Empire unit has line of sight to the target unit)

[Warlord]

Looks good to me.

[der Hurenwiebel]

I can accept that. 

[Rodman49]

I still feel 2 for 1 Mortars is the best solution.  I would personally not take them in any of the other renditions mentioned in this thread.

[Johedl]

Mortars:

75 points
Mortar M- WS- BS- S- T7 W3 I- A- Ld-
Crew. M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A3 Ld7
Number of crew: 3
Equipment: each crewmember carries a hand weapon.
The mortar can be upgraded to have incendiary bombs, which grant flaming attacks, for +10 points.
Special Rules: Indirect Fire(the mortar can target any unit within range so long as an Empire unit has line of sight to the target unit)

Looks good. But how about making the flaming attack S4 AP and the small template for +5p? The reason being that incendiary ammunition are riskier to handle and must have a smaller charge. A S3 flaming hit wouldn't scare must targets with regenerate.
Indirect Fire. The mortar can use the LOS from any friendly unit in LOS of the mortar with a standard. The unit must have someway of directing the fire.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I would already be satisfied, if mortars were core (or even rare). I would be more than satisfied if the were core (or rare) and had the Indirect Fire rule.