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Author Topic: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session  (Read 8757 times)

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2012, 10:37:25 AM »
Thanks for the intel.....Thousand sons are from the background so tastilicious.....maybe some day....some day a bit of chaos.

Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2012, 03:12:04 PM »
Hmmm. Still not sure about the direction I want to go with this.

Obviously my current army will need some serious restructuring, but in what direction remains to be seen. I can see changing my basic fluff up. It has always been a bit painful for me to completely skip Papa Nurgle because of my Tzeentchian bosses. Perhaps I'll change those up to Khorne - that would allow me both Tzeentch and Nurgle followers and only exclude Slaanesh, which I currently don't use anyway. Although Noise Marines do look rather tasty, with their salvo 2/3 sonic blasters. Decisions, decisions...

Big squads of Marines look pretty good actually from what I can see. I special per 5, and a points drop to boot. Say, 15 Marines with MoK and a PF champ, that's a LOT of attacks on the charge, and if you make 'em veterans of the long war that includes hatred: sapce marines - and they could still carry 3 meltas at a reasonable price. Might be worth a look.

Bikers, now that could be an interesting option again as well. Rumored cost of 70 for 2+champ, and 20 more for each bike, that's a pretty significant points drop if true. If they have nice options they might well be worth a look. T6 with MoN for example is not to be sniffed at.

Cultists could be nice just as cheap objective holders in the back - 50 for 10 is basically free. Increase it to 20, throw in a couple upgrades like autoguns and 2 heavy stubbers and they're still cheap at about 120 and might actually contribute something. Or make it a big squad of 35 with MoK and cc weapons, throw in some fearless rabble rouser (if that's available) and charge 'em forward. Could be fun as well.

Berzerkers. If I still want them they'll actually need a Raider or scout / infiltrate this time around, because Rhinos are now worthless when it comes to delivering assault units. We'll see. They might be competing with possessed for a seat in the Raider if those are good in the same role and reasonably priced.

Forge Fiends/Maulerfiends: a standard Forgefiend with 2 Hades Autocannons sounds juicy, 8 S8 shots a turn with rerolls to wound / armor pen once a game, even it it's only BS3. Maulerfiend is REALLY quick to get into combat apparently. Still only AV12 so I am a bit undecided.

A squad of havocs will almost definitely be included, propably with 4 missile launchers with Flakk missiles. Looking at the old school Forge World missile launchers for conversion fodder.

And as for HQs, I'll really need to see the codex before I can decide on any of that.

Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2012, 11:39:04 AM »
Well well well. Had an opportunity to take a good long look at the Dex, and my gut reaction is mixed leaning to positive. Some things in there make me sad, some make me very happy indeed.

I've already fooled around with it a bit and arrived at the skeleton of a nice and reasonably fluffy Khorne warband:

HQ:

Chaos Lord, Mark of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption (4++), Bike, Demon Weapon (with +2S AP2, Demon weapon extra attacks and -1 WS and BS, and Rage), Meltabombs

Troops:

20 Cultists, autoguns, 2 heavy stubbers

20 Cultists, pistol+ccw, 2 flamers (well, I have those 40 from the starter boxes, so I might as well use them as they are for now)

5 Chaos Marines (includes champ, every squad now has a champ in the base cost), Plasma, Combiplasma on champ, Rhino with Havoc Launcher and Combiplasma

5 Chaos Marines, Plasma, Combiplasma on champ, Rhino with Havoc Launcher and Combiplasma

8 Chaos Marines (exchange bolter for ccw), Melta, Combimelta on champ, PW for the champ, Rhino with Dirgecaster (enemies within 6" can't overwatch)

Elites

8 Chosen, 3 Plasma, 2 Melta, champ has combimelta, Power Weapon and meltabombs, Rhino with Dirgecaster

Fast Attack

7 Bikers, Mark of Khorne, Icon of Wrath (furious charge + reroll charge distance), veterans of the long war (hatred vs. all Marines), 2 meltas, PW on champ. Those will be joined by the Lord on bike.

Heavy Support

Forge Fiend (2 Hades Autocannons, 1 Ectoplasma Cannon)

8 Havocs, 4 Missile Launchers, extra Flakk missiles

Vindicator with Demonic Possession and combi bolter


That should be slightly over 1900, so I can add some more stuff, and I have already indulged in some frills and frivolities. :-)

That's a bit more than 40 Marines, 8 of which are riding bikes, 40 Cultists, 6 vehicles and a metric ton of melta and plasma (counting combis it's currently 9 plasma and 7 melta I think). Me like.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 11:46:01 AM by Aldaris »

Offline Finlay

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2012, 12:33:50 PM »
Why the slightly negative reaction, aldaris?
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2012, 12:39:44 PM »
Why the slightly negative reaction, aldaris?

Because some of the stuff I was fond of in the old book was removed/made worse. For example, There are just 2 Demon Weapons in the Armory, and one is Khorne only (the axe I am using in the list above). Granted, it is a pretty damn spiffy axe, but my Tzeentch Disc Lord with Demon Sword is going to gather a lot of dust the coming years. Precision deepstrike to icons is gone. Stuff like that. But it certainly looks like a fun and competitive book, so I shouldn't complain!

I look forward to using bikers and huge Demon Engines with homungous gatling guns and hordes of unwashed cultists with bad attitude and worse personal hygiene. it will be great.
 :-D

Offline Sig

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2012, 01:24:26 PM »
Cultists look useable, but I've read Dark Apostles are terrible, confirm/deny? Makes or breaks getting back into chaos since I do Word Bearers.

Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2012, 01:31:17 PM »
Nah, Dark Apostles aren't terrible IMO. They're "small" HQs, so only 2A and 2W, But they come with Bolter, Pistol, Power Maul, 4++, Zealot and some other, minor stuff, as well as access to Marks and Wargear, while barely breaking the triple digits.

Offline phillyt

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2012, 02:33:17 PM »
Seems like a pretty light list Aldaris.  Only takes a turn or two of shooting to remove those smaller chaos marine units while they themselves don't really pack enough fire power to do too much.  Not many things for shooters to target in terms of vehicles either, and all of them are very soft.

Seems like everything is based around that beastly biker unit and the chosen, though their rhino is as good as dead on turn one.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2012, 03:04:26 PM »
Well, those 2 smaller CSM units are cheap, score, sit in a Rhino and have decent firepower with 3 Plasma available to them. The other units aren't really small at 8 dudes, at least in my opinion. Plus, there is a pretty decent amount of medium to long range, high S fire available in HS.

What do you suggest? As I said, this is merely playing around, so I'm very open to ideas; plus there's also about 100 points open atm which could be increased to 200 easily by cutting some fat. I definitely like the bike unit though, that seems VERY punchy. The Lord alone can potentially dish out 12 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge. I also like the look of my HS, at least the FF and the Havocs seem like they really should be there.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 03:07:14 PM by Aldaris »

Offline phillyt

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2012, 03:25:34 PM »
I figured the cultists would be scoring units.  A unit of 8 chaos marines isn't really all that big.  Lacking any FNP or ward, they are two turns from gobbled up, and one turn of shooting and an assault phase from being destroyed.  My worry with the rhino squads is that I am assuming they are going to sally forth to take objectives.  The problem becomes, once they hit no mans land, they are going to have their vehicle popped and be left to eat fire with only 5 and 8 wounds to hold them.

You do have plenty of return fire, but you lack volume fire against infantry armies.

I am more of a fan of taking plenty of low cost chaos marines and using cover to move on objectives while shooting and snap firing, assaulting at the finish.

But then again, I am not really one to make anything but suggestions!
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Offline Sig

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2012, 03:35:28 PM »
100 points and only 2 wounds with no psychic powers or combat ability? Nah, I'll pass. You'd think hating on marines for 10,000 years would be motivation to bring an AP3 weapon. Bummer. Chaos melee units don't need buffs (guessing that zealot copies a chaplain's buff) to shine. I'd much rather the khorne lord or a 60 point sorc.

Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2012, 04:04:08 PM »
guessing that zealot copies a chaplain's buff

Hatred and Fearless, IIRC. It's in the main book. He also shares his leadership out 6" and allows him and anyone in his unit to reroll boons rolls.

And yes, I am preferring a Lord or Sorc as well.

@Phil: 8 Marines is plenty for a squad in my experience, especially in a Rhino. Style difference I guess, but big foot units get very expensive very fast, and are a lot more vulnerable I feel - although it's certainly a viable option. 6 10 man CSM squads run 140 each naked, that's 840. Up the numbers to 15 each you look at 205. 1230 points naked. Say, 40-50 points in upgrades per squad, that's about 1500... but you'd have 90 Marines advancing on you, which WOULD be intimidating... :-)

Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2012, 09:36:09 PM »
So, I've been playing around some more, and also coming back to the idea of including some IG as allies - Blood Pact!
I also like the idea of running not one, but 2 biker units. One dedicated to Khorne, the other led by a Nurgle Sorcerer.
Not easy to fit all that, make something reasonably hard and keep to the fluffy numbers as much as possible, but this is what I've come up with so far. Still only playing around... it's a bit light on models.

Chaos Space Marines - Primary Detachment

HQ:

Chaos Lord
Veteran of the Long War, Bike, Mark of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption (4++) , Axe of blind Fury - 160
Mr. Choppy-choppy, leading the Khorne Bikers. He has 7-12 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.

Chaos Sorcerer 160
Bike, Mark of Nurgle, +2 Mastery Levels, Aura of Dark Glory (5++)
Nurgle Biker Boss. Not yet decided if I want the whole lore of Nurgle or if I should go for some other lore too.

Troops:

8 Chaos Space Marines
Melta, CCWs, Power Weapon+CombiMelta on the Boss, Mark of Khorne, Rhino - 216

8 Chaos Space Marines
Melta, CCWs, Power Weapon+CombiMelta on the Boss, Mark of Khorne, Rhino - 216

Fast Attack:

7 Biker
Veterans of the long War, Mark of Khorne, 2 Melta, Icon of Wrath, Melta Bombs - 216

6 Biker
Veterans of the long War, Mark of Nurgle, 2 Melta, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs - 212

Heavy Support:

Forge Fiend
2 Hades Autocannons, 1 Ectoplasma Cannon - 200

Allies - Blood Pact (IG)

HQ:

Company Command Squad
4 x Plasma guns, Chimera with Heavy Flamer - 165

Troops:

Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad - 3 Flamers
Infantry Squad - Autocannon
Infantry Squad - Autocannon - 165

Fast Attack:

Vendetta Squadron
1 x Vendetta - 130

Heavy Support:

Manticore - 160

2000 total on the nose. :-)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 09:43:06 PM by Aldaris »

Offline phillyt

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2012, 10:19:46 PM »
How do you get three HQ?  Are you jumping up to the second FOC?  And 3 troops at that point level?!?! Noooooooo!
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2012, 10:21:10 PM »
Allies. 2 HQs from CSM, 1 HQ from IG. And it's actually 5 troop choices.

Offline Sig

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2012, 10:38:01 PM »
My only real criticism would be that I think you need more MEQ scoring bodies. You've got 25 GEQ and 16 MEQ, I just don't think that's enough at 2k. My current 2k list has 30 MEQ as scoring and 10 of those are bikes (T5) and I think that's on the low side.

Offline phillyt

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #66 on: October 04, 2012, 10:53:48 PM »
Allies. 2 HQs from CSM, 1 HQ from IG. And it's actually 5 troop choices.

Wait, you don't get a bonus HQ do you?  You pull from your FOC.  Likewise, you alre limited on the number of allied units.  Three is more than allowed.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #67 on: October 04, 2012, 11:02:59 PM »
My only real criticism would be that I think you need more MEQ scoring bodies. You've got 25 GEQ and 16 MEQ, I just don't think that's enough at 2k. My current 2k list has 30 MEQ as scoring and 10 of those are bikes (T5) and I think that's on the low side.

That's what I meant when I said low on bodies. A bit of a problem, since more scoring bodies means less fire support... tricky. Perhaps I'll try it the other way around, with IG as primary detachment. I'll give this some more thought, but I'd really like to make those two bike units work.

Wait, you don't get a bonus HQ do you?  You pull from your FOC.  Likewise, you alre limited on the number of allied units.  Three is more than allowed.

Nope. You ought to read up on the allies rules.
Allies get a separate FOC. 1 mandatory HQ, 1 mandatory troop. Optional: 2nd troop, 1 Elite, 1 FA, 1 HS.

Offline phillyt

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #68 on: October 04, 2012, 11:05:37 PM »
Hmmm, I'll have to reread that.  Sounds completely retarded if thats the case.  I never use them so have never had to take a second look.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2012, 11:08:20 PM »
Sounds completely retarded if thats the case.

Actually, it opens up the game considerably. Almost everyone bar Nids can take Allies in some form or other, and it's a blast playing with the possibilities this offers.

Offline Sig

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2012, 11:12:44 PM »
I'd look at trading in a mastery level to fill out the marine squads first. Then I'd probably trade in the flamers on the platoon command squad for another marine. Filling the two squads out to 10 and adding an extra special to each would probably be my first priority.

Also, I don't have the rules in front of me, but did you pay a fair whack of points for the plasma on the Forgefiend? If you took another Hades instead, would that free up points? Not sold on a single plasma shot, even if it is str 8 (which it is right? think I read that somewhere...)

Even having another 4 bodies would help shore up your scoring. If you needed more points, maybe drop Veterans of the Long War from the Nurgle bikes?

Offline phillyt

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #71 on: October 04, 2012, 11:15:47 PM »
It isn't the allied portion I dislike, it is the free FOC addition.  So if you chose not to include additional units, you are essentially limiting yourself.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2012, 11:25:25 PM »
I'd look at trading in a mastery level to fill out the marine squads first. Then I'd probably trade in the flamers on the platoon command squad for another marine. Filling the two squads out to 10 and adding an extra special to each would probably be my first priority.

Also, I don't have the rules in front of me, but did you pay a fair whack of points for the plasma on the Forgefiend? If you took another Hades instead, would that free up points? Not sold on a single plasma shot, even if it is str 8 (which it is right? think I read that somewhere...)

Even having another 4 bodies would help shore up your scoring. If you needed more points, maybe drop Veterans of the Long War from the Nurgle bikes?

Good suggestions I think, although the math doesn't quite work. The plasma on the FF costs 25, and that's his only option on top of the Hades Autocannons. He can't take a third of those, sadly (also, it's a plasma CANNON shot S8. Blast). To shore up the Marine squads and add a special to both would mean 80 points... considerable. Let's see what we could drop.
-1 Mastery level - 25 (although that's already painful). Flamers on CCS - 15. Dropping vets on the Nurgle bikers would only yield 6... that's still 34 points to cut. I don't see 'em to be honest... will have to give this some more thought.

Another possibility would be to drop something bigger and add a Plasma Vet squad in another chimera, but that's 170... that would mean dropping the fiend or the Manticore, and I'm light on long range fire as it is.

It isn't the allied portion I dislike, it is the free FOC addition.  So if you chose not to include additional units, you are essentially limiting yourself.

It's a free FOC addition you cannot use for your primary detachment, so that doesn't really apply. Plus, those additional slots have additional mandatory requirements as well.
But can we discuss 6th edition in general somewhere else? The rules have been out for a couple of months, it's not like this is news.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 11:30:44 PM by Aldaris »

Offline Sig

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2012, 11:31:36 PM »
Very tough choice... maybe even losing a Nurgle bike, though you did say those were dirt cheap, what, 20 points base now? SM bikes are 25 and I'd bet they're cheaper than that by at least 2 points. I don't know.. but I think you could trade in the combis on the marine squads for the actual specials if it's like the SM codex, they're the same cost.

I honestly don't see a problem with losing a mastery level, I'd much rather not trade in the Fiend or Manticore if I could help it! You're right about low long range fire.

Offline Aldaris

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Re: CSM rumors - pretty huge pile from an online Q&A session
« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2012, 11:37:15 PM »
In the configuration I have Nurgle bikes run 27 points per bike, for T6 and hatred: all Space Marines.