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Offline Elieress

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« on: December 21, 2005, 09:50:02 AM »
I have been doing a bit of "Theory Hammering" about the fun rules surrounding the skirmishers...

I have of course read the Atchmans Mini tactica (found Here: http://www.warhammer-empire.com/war_skirmishers1.htm)

The followint is intended as an expansion on the existing tactica. Some of the points here might be painfully obvious to most players. Some of what i write might be plain wrong.

Please comment, point out errors or just laugh at my spelling. Any critique is welcome...

This is a work in progress. I will update it as soon as I possibly can. If you have any comments, I will do my best to correct or expand this.


************************************************************
-- DISCLAIMER --
 The use (or abuse) of the following is not always considered acceptable or sporting behaviour. I write this to give you an idea on how to use the rules. Not to give you a manual on how to abuse the rules. Remember to play sportingly.

During this mini-tactica, I won’t go into too much detail about the various skirmishers that exists in the world of warhammer. That exercise is covered in all the army specific tacticas. A good general should always know his opponent, and should always consider every possible outcome of his opponent’s choices. Just remember to consider what will happen if a charge succeeds, if it fails, if the charged unit flees, if it takes the charge and breaks or if it takes the charge and holds.

Basic rules about Skirmishers.

”The enemy is brought into contact with the closest skirmisher and then the enemy unit is halted”

“During a charge a unit can wheel once”

This wheel doesn’t have to be in the beginning of a move so, units with enough movement is perfectly capable of performing some rather remarkable charge moves.

This all depends on how much freedom the charger has in when he performs his allowed wheel. If the closest skirmishing model is directly in front of the charging unit, then the charging unit can end up facing almost any direction they want.



Charging skirmishers for best effect:

If you are faced with a skirmish screen trying to protect something valuable, you should consider not just charging straight ahead to wipe out the skirmishers, but instead making sure that the single wheel you are allowed to make is performed at the right time to make sure that you end up overrunning into the nice juicy target the opponent tries to protect.



Unbreakable or stubborn skirmishers are often used as both tarpit units and as traps for counter charges from something nasty. If you want to execute the charge anyway, make sure that you identify the possible counter chargers and wheel the charging unit so the counter charge will be less favourable for your opponent.
Also remember that the skirmishers might even end up shielding you from the counter charge since an opponent in your frontal arch cannot execute a charge if your entire front is engaged, even though the opponent can draw a direct line to your flank.

*** Pictures showing wheels protecting the chargers (much the same as above)

Flank and rear charges on skirmishers:
When declaring multiple charges on skirmishers, you move the chargers in the order in which they were declared. When the first charging unit hits the skirmisher, the skirmishing unit is formed up to face the enemy. Only when the skirmisher has been formed up, is the next charging unit moved. This can give the charger a great advantage, since the first charging unit decides where the skirmisher ends up having his flanks and rear. It is quite possible, and often the case that combined charges on a skirmishing unit ends up being a charge in the front and in either a flank or the rear.

In this case it is VERY important that you declare your charges in the correct order and that you move your first charger with great caution.

*** Picture showing dual charges on skirmishers.

Using skirmishers for best effect:

Remember the golden rule that allows skirmishers to dictate movement around them to a very high degree. Enemies MUST charge the closest skirmisher.
With this in mind, it is quite possible to shield a valuable figure with a unit of skirmishers while still making sure that your opponent cannot overrun into the protected object. This manoeuvre is often called the J-hook.  

The trick is rather simple. The opponent must charge the closest skirmisher. If the closest skirmisher is placed right, then an overrun through the skirmishers will only send the opponent even further away from his intended target. For a J-hook to work, it requires that the skirmishers receive the charge. If the skirmishers flee, then a redirected charge could mean the loss of the protected object.

The J-hook even works against multiple chargers, since a redirected charge is only possible if the opponent flees. Not if the opponent is drawn away because of another charge.

*** Pictures showing skirmisher redirection.

Another valuable lesson to remember is that multiple charges on skirmishers do not have to go quite as bad as mentioned above. The trick is to position the closest skirmisher to each opponent, so your opponent cannot wheel in the charge to expose the skirmishers flanks, or even better, forces the charger to wheel away from the common centre, thus drawing the skirmishers out of charge distance of the other chargers. This is called the bull horn or C-defence.

Dealing with large targets:
The main problem with screening something valuable from a large target, is that the large target is capable of seeing over the skirmishers and can thus often charge things normal sized targets cannot. This is even more difficult when dealing with large flying opponents. The main trick here is to remember that an opponent in a unit’s frontal arc can only charge that units front even if it can draw a line of sight to the units flank. If there isn’t enough room to land in front of the unit, then that charge is impossible. This means that if you place your skirmishers close to the flank you want to protect, then even large flying targets cannot charge the protected unit, and they might then be tempted to charge the protecting skirmishers in stead. If the closest skirmisher then is far enough from the protected unit, then even an overrun through the skirmishers will keep the protected unit safe.

*** Picture showing skirmisher redirection of large flyer.

The basic thing I am trying to say here is that skirmishers can be a useful and valuable addition to most armies. Knowing and using their rules to the best effect can often be a defining factor in their efficiency.


Decent use of wheels during charges:

Though it is often possible to do some rather ridiculous wheels when charging skirmishers, it should never be done to excess.
Consider the maximum change in direction possible when charging a standard ranked up unit. When charging such a unit, the charger is often turned up to 45 degrees from his original direction, but never more. In my personal opinion, you should keep this in mind when charging skirmishers too. Wheels of up to 45 degrees is acceptable, but more than that is stretching it a bit too much.

So a general rule of thumb is LESS than 45 degrees… which is still enough to gain some valuable benefits but not enough to be too ridiculous.


*********************************************************
update 1: 2 Pictures added, more text added.

Please comment.
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2005, 10:37:00 AM »
I think it would be good to go into a bit of detail of various "general" types of skirmisher.  Then you could advise which tactics are best used against each sort?

For example:  Skinks.  These fit in the cheap expendible role.  Many lizardmen players will declare flee as charge reaction, so you need to be prepared for what that could mean.  Also they could stand and shoot, meaning you need troops of sufficient armour to carry off the charge.  Most advised unit:  Knights, Least advised unit: Flaggelents due to no armour to save from poison.

That any help?  :)
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Offline Elieress

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2005, 10:39:17 AM »
Good idea... I will try to work that in.. Thanks.
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Offline Elieress

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2005, 01:21:35 PM »
Does anyone have any other comments?  I wont have time to insert the pictures for a few more days though.. expect that kind of update after christmas...  I will however update the text and content in any extent possible...
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2005, 01:25:30 PM »
I dont think many people are on here.  Virtue of being unemployed and job searching means I can loiter around here for most of the day.

I think it would be a benifit to seperate the tactics which are somewhat dubious from those which are just clever thinking.  For example the lining up to ensure flank charges is a good sensible strategy, but many people would not be best pleased with a deliberate wheel to exploit them.

I personaly dont mind but if it was some massive and highly unlikely wheel id raise my concerns about that being playing the rules rather than the game.
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Offline Elieress

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2005, 10:24:09 AM »
updated.. Added a few pictures, added some text...

What do you think?   are the pictures decent and explanatory enough ?  What should I put more effort into?

Comments appreciated...   :-D
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Offline Midaski

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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2005, 11:05:08 AM »
The diagrams help tremendously - I always think they make an explanation so much better.

Especially when they have been well thought out - unlike some GW ones. :wink:

The feedback on this is going to be quite important, as it is quite likely that someone else will come up with a situation you may not have thought of.
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Offline Con El Pueblo

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2006, 08:12:48 PM »
Ehh, doesn't the wheel have to be at the beginning of the charge move..?

I'll look this up.

Otherwise, it looks really great!
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Offline Con El Pueblo

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2006, 08:33:49 PM »
Quote
“During a charge a unit can wheel once”


In the BRB it says on p.52, after the part you've mentioned:

Quote
It can, and indeed must, wheel in order to maximise the number of charging models able to fight.
-snip-
If chargers need to wheel towards their target, execute the wheel as already described, measuring the distance wheeled as you normally would. This distance counts as part of the total distance charged. For example, if a unit can charge 12" it might wheel 4" to bring models to face the enemy and then move up to 8" towards them.


That said, I used to think that you were allowed one wheel at the beginning of the charge move?

It seems to imply that the wheel is only allowed to maximise frontage?

BRB, p. 49:

Quote
A unit that is charging is only able to wheel once to align itself to the enemy, as described later


Am I the only one who has played it in this way?
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Offline Elieress

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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2006, 09:22:08 AM »
as far as I know, the wheel can be performed at any time... This is most likely intended to make sure that a charger can wheel after he has cleared an obstacle.

what you have written above would also indicate that pegasuscaptain is suddenly a much poorer mage hunter if he is not allowed to decide where he makes contact with a unit with a mage hidden in it.  a 6 wide unit with a mage in one end would then be safe from a pegasuscaptain if he is closer to the other end of the units frontage...

The rules you state are to make sure that you maximize your frontage... and to make sure that chargeblockers can actually block chargers...

I do agree that abuse of these rules should be considered cheating, however this game is about tactics and movement a lot more than it is about roling dice. intelligent use of the movement rules is what sets a decent player apart from a poor one. I see this as just another facet of the movement dance between armies.
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Offline Con El Pueblo

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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2006, 01:11:24 PM »
Quote from: Elieress
as far as I know, the wheel can be performed at any time... This is most likely intended to make sure that a charger can wheel after he has cleared an obstacle.



 - Well, I can't find anything saying you're wrong, I've just never heard it that way. I always thought that a charge SHOULD be a straight line (makes sense to me as well, probably why I've never questioned it).

Quote
what you have written above would also indicate that pegasuscaptain is suddenly a much poorer mage hunter if he is not allowed to decide where he makes contact with a unit with a mage hidden in it.  a 6 wide unit with a mage in one end would then be safe from a pegasuscaptain if he is closer to the other end of the units frontage...

The rules you state are to make sure that you maximize your frontage... and to make sure that chargeblockers can actually block chargers...


The rules I've stated came directly from the BRB. The REASON for them I won't start debating. Only GW playtesters know these  :roll:

Can't the Pegasusrider just align up to the unit, charge directly ahead, and then wheel in to maximise frontage? I don't see how it should prevent magehunting.

Edit: Come to think of it, I've never seen a GW battle rep. doing this mid-charge-manouvering. Doesn't make it wrong, though.
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2006, 01:40:19 PM »
Its legal to make a wheel at any point.

Its just not very sportsmanlike to do a large wheel to drag a unit out of the way to open up firing/manuvering lanes.
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Offline Con El Pueblo

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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2006, 01:15:13 PM »
Hi again!

I've been asking around, and it seems that the reason I've been confused is that the "wheel only at the beginning of a charge" is an old 5th ed. rule we've carried over to 6th... Oh well  :-D

I've got me some new tactics to try out  :P
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Offline Elieress

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Draft for a little skirmisher tactica *1. update*
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2006, 01:36:06 PM »
Quote from: Con El Pueblo

Can't the Pegasusrider just align up to the unit, charge directly ahead, and then wheel in to maximise frontage? I don't see how it should prevent magehunting.


Just as a theoretical example... if the rules are interpreted as wheel only allowed to maximize frontage and ONLY then.

Code: [Select]

MEEEEEEEEE


       ^
       P


Pegasus  (P) looking straight up... Enemy unit (E) in charge arch, but pegasus may only wheel to maximize frontage.... Max frontage is obtained without wheel, so wheel isn't allowed...   Pegasus charges straight ahead and mage(M) stays out of reach...

Strange isnt it???  
Can we all agree that a wheel is allowed for tactical reasons also?

As far as I know, nothing of what I have written above is illegal or against the rules.. ABUSE of the rules should be frowned upon, but as a tactical advantage I think friendly use is perfectly okay...

by the way, I also do a bit of freestyle fighting in a reenactment setting (viking)... and we actually train the "wheel midway during charge" to catch opponents in an angle... So it just feels acceptable and functional to me... If my opponent doens't want to stay in formation, they are going to pay the prize when they are outmanouvered.
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Offline berserkshrew

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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2006, 11:09:47 PM »
Looking good. Perhaps you could write a sentance or two about each of the different skirmishing units in the game, because there's quite a difference between Skinks and Wardancers.

Offline Guvnor

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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2006, 10:23:52 AM »
I would like some skirmish unit discussion too, I like the way crimsonshpinx has done it.

I'll add some to save you some time if you want.
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Offline Elieress

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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2006, 10:47:11 AM »
Quote
I would like some skirmish unit discussion too, I like the way crimsonshpinx has done it.

I'll add some to save you some time if you want.

It would be most welcome...

I have been a little swamped at work lately, so I haven't had time to do any more illustrations... I will get back to them though...

The reason I haven't added unit or race specific skirmishers info is that I don't feel I know enough about the exact abilities of all the skirmishers out there... and I also have the feeling that many people use the same skirmishers for different things.

The Idea I had at the beginning of this was to cover the movement aspects of skirmishers... such as charge redirection, blocking, turning and interception... It would be a great thing with some specifics about the different skirmishing units though, so people would know what to expect when they face an opponent they aren't used to playing against...

I will see if I can get time to finish the illustrations soon...

Is there anything lacking or plain wrong in the text as it stands now???
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2006, 11:41:21 AM »
At first I was a little confused with the diagrams.  That is because I thought they were running in order.

But thats because ive only just woken up, so im not thinking properly.  They explain well the concept of wheeling before the charge.  Its not actually what I thought you meant.  Id be happy for someone to do that.

What I thought you meant was to wheel at the end and clip a guy on an extreme side of the unit, say the guy on the top left, to drag the whole unit away from where it was, rather than just manipulating the same guy you charged.  Thats all good and is pretty tactical.
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Offline Guvnor

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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2006, 11:27:24 AM »
Here we go then...

Types of skirmisher.


Run of the mill.
I call them this because there is nothing special about them, they don't scout don't have any cool abilities. They are just extra men on the battle field in many cases. these include:

Empire Archers- These guys are generally used as a missile screen. They can't fight and their shooting isn't great so they are simply bodies in the way. a lower version of a huntsman, they have a normal bow and no armour.

Skaven Night runners- At a wonderfully low 5 points these guys rock. They have Ld6, which is damn good for skaven and can be a missile screen or a sacrifice unit. They have a wide range of equipment, two hand weapons, throwing stars, slings... Some people will use all of these and other none. It is a personal choice. however skaven with slings can make a halfway decent shooting unit and can use double shots at half range (9").

Skinks who do not scout- These guys aren't very tough (T2) and so aren't the best missile screen. Most lizardmen will use them in front of a kroxigor unit or as a distraction, they have blowpipes or javelins and they can be quite good shooters. Both weapons are poisoned.
NB: Kroxigor can charge through these guys.

What does everyone think of these? I will do more but will have to root out some army books.
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Offline Guvnor

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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2006, 11:54:06 AM »
Right got the books out:

Elven Scouts.

I put these into their own category as they are better than most scouts and are special in their own ways.
Both Shadow warriors and Shades are not 0-1. This means they can have multiple units scouting behind your line. In a 2000 point game you could be scuppered by four units of scout behind your artillery. This is not likely to happen, but it could.

Shades- These guys have access to the repeater crossbows, with their BS 4 and being close to your lines they can be quite a pain. They move fast (M5) and have a high leadership ( 8 ). They are more than a match for artillery crew (WS4) and can often take down small missile units and detachments. They do have an option for light armour, but most will not use this as the 6+ armour save is not too great and it just makes them more expensive.

Shadow warriors- They are the same as their evil brethen but have longbows. They automatically have light armour, making them more expensive. Their longbows and being close to you are again a bit of a nuisance. But, in my opinion the shades are a little better than the shadow warriors due to the rep. crossbows.
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Offline Guvnor

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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2006, 05:04:25 PM »
Scouts

The main type of skirmishers most armies take, these guys can be used for march blocking artillery hunting, all sorts. They can deploy anywhere as long as 10" away from the enemy and out of sight (in cover).

Empire huntsmen: Our beloved huntsmen. These guys normally marchblock or are used as a sacrificial unit. They are not that good at shooting and aren't strong enough to reliably kill artillery crews. It is possible, but gernerally I have had them beaten off once too many times to try it again. At 50pts for a five man unit they are fairly expensive per model but they make up for that in tactics. I have found that they are good for flank or rear charging an impressive enemy unit and then fleeing, hopefully causing the enemy unit to overrun in the wrong direction.

Just a thought here: do we have a huntsmen tactica?
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Offline minipreacher

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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2006, 06:03:34 PM »
Quote from: Elieress
Just as a theoretical example... if the rules are interpreted as wheel only allowed to maximize frontage and ONLY then.

Code: [Select]

MEEEEEEEEE


       ^
       P


Pegasus  (P) looking straight up... Enemy unit (E) in charge arch, but pegasus may only wheel to maximize frontage.... Max frontage is obtained without wheel, so wheel isn't allowed...   Pegasus charges straight ahead and mage(M) stays out of reach...

Strange isnt it???  
Can we all agree that a wheel is allowed for tactical reasons also?


I don't think it is strange at all. This is a very difficult question, since we only have the badly worded rulebook to consult in this matter. It seems, though, that the idea behind charge moves is to keep them as simple as possible. Thus, a charger should only wheel in order to maximise models coming into close combat. If the models are already maximised, the charger should not wheel. Otherwise we are in a situation where chariots, dragons etc. can freely elect to clip as much as they want, even though their enemy would sitting one inch in front of them before the charge. Surely the rules don't explicitly deny this possibility (since they are badly written), but to use this loophole seems a bit too rules-lawyerish to me.
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