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Author Topic: Charging fleeing unit clarification  (Read 3268 times)

Offline Cursain

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Charging fleeing unit clarification
« on: November 29, 2012, 05:14:27 PM »
This last weekend I pulled a tactic that reads legal, but I want to make 100% sure I didn't pull a fast one on my opponent.

My Greatswords had just broke a unit of skinks in HTH during my opponents turn and I chose not to pursue because my halberd unit was engaged with a unit of saurus warriors and I wanted to charge them in the flank during my turn.

When I declared charges, I chose to charge the skinks that were fleeing with the Greatswords since they were within my max 16" charge range.  I knew their charge reaction would be to "flee".  I wanted to push them farther away from the front where the fighting was, essentially taking them out of the game since they'd be so far from everything even if they rally.  Really my intent was two-fold.  Make them run, and use the rule to my favor that if something has the "flee" reaction from a charge I can redirect the unit into the saurus unit.

Of course we both agreed it seemed to be okay, but I wanted to make sure this is a valid tactic.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 05:26:04 PM »
No, you are right - perfectly legal and good tactics too.
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Offline Cursain

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 05:34:22 PM »
That's awesome and the first time I had thought of using the tactic.  Imagine the possibilities with a couple unengaged Pegasus captains.  You could almost run a couple units off the board with their 22" charge range.

Offline zifnab0

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 06:25:43 PM »
Remember that it can be used against you as well.  If you have a unit in charge range of more than 1 unit but want to flee, it might make more sense to hold against the first and flee from the second so they don't force you to flee twice.

And sometimes they don't charge with that second unit...

Offline Eighty

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 07:03:11 PM »
this leads to interesting developments if he has a potential charger behind the fleeing unit (say a flyer)

so if your Greatswords charge the fleeing skinks, they run directly away from them x inches.. Say there is a Captasus behind his lines, he charges, they skinks autoflee.. if positioned right, they might flee right back INTO the greatswords movement range..

then when you roll your greatswords charge, they can easily 'catch' the skinks and they are cut down..

We call it ping pong and its great if you have terror causing chargers and flying units :D
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Offline Noght

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 09:06:07 PM »
Totally legal and an advanced technique, excellent work.

We call it ping pong and its great if you have terror causing chargers and flying units :D

I do this all the time, though I just prefer running them off the board so I can redirect and kill stuff.  Do as Curs did and redirect with the GS.  Then declare a charge with the Pegasus or Pistoliers sending them running some more and redirect somewhere else.
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Offline zifnab0

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 09:09:05 PM »
Hm, wait a minute.

If you charge a fleeing unit, doesn't it flee "in the direction it was facing"?  Or does it first turn away from the threat?

I'm pretty sure it's the first.  So you don't ping-pong models.  They would actually charge closer to the captasus.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 09:18:41 PM »
BRB Official Update Version 1.6A p.6:
Q: Once a unit has declared a Flee! charge reaction, or if it is already fleeing at the start of the movement phase, must it declare and resolve a Flee! charge reaction for every subsequent charge declared against it that turn? (p17)
A: Yes.
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Offline Ambrose

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 12:54:01 AM »
Hm, wait a minute.

If you charge a fleeing unit, doesn't it flee "in the direction it was facing"?  Or does it first turn away from the threat?

I'm pretty sure it's the first.  So you don't ping-pong models.  They would actually charge closer to the captasus.

I thought it was the fleeing unit would contue along it's fleeing path (not changing direction), but this raises questions, what if the unit fleeing is facing the unit that declares the second charge?  Does it simply run through the unit and make dangerous tests?  Anyone who can clarify?
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Offline eriktheguy

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2012, 04:19:48 AM »
I do this all the time without thinking twice, but I remember the first time I tried it. I was unsure about the legality and posted on the forums just like you. But it's definitely legal and a sound strategy. Make sure you have some Ld nearby or you risk failing to redirect.

Sometimes it's necessary to chase unit A out of the way to even be able to reach unit B.

Offline sebster

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 04:56:43 AM »
This is also a good use for Pistoliers.  Spend the first couple of turns delaying the enemy, then sneak into the back ranks and harry fleeing enemy units off the field.  Lacking flight means they're not as effective in the role as a Captain on a Pegasus, but they can still do it pretty well.


Hm, wait a minute.

If you charge a fleeing unit, doesn't it flee "in the direction it was facing"?  Or does it first turn away from the threat?

I'm pretty sure it's the first.  So you don't ping-pong models.  They would actually charge closer to the captasus.

If it fails to rally then it continues to flee in the same direction as it was already fleeing.  But if it's fleeing from a new charge, then it immediately flees away from the direction of the new charge.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 06:36:47 AM »
Hm, wait a minute.

If you charge a fleeing unit, doesn't it flee "in the direction it was facing"?  Or does it first turn away from the threat?

I'm pretty sure it's the first.  So you don't ping-pong models.  They would actually charge closer to the captasus.

I thought it was the fleeing unit would contue along it's fleeing path (not changing direction), but this raises questions, what if the unit fleeing is facing the unit that declares the second charge?  Does it simply run through the unit and make dangerous tests?  Anyone who can clarify?

The answer was in the post right above yours  :icon_wink::

BRB Official Update Version 1.6A p.6:
Q: Once a unit has declared a Flee! charge reaction, or if it is already fleeing at the start of the movement phase, must it declare and resolve a Flee! charge reaction for every subsequent charge declared against it that turn? (p17)
A: Yes.

And what does it have to do to resolve a Flee reaction?

BRB p. 17: If a unit chooses a Flee! reaction, for whatever reason, use the following procedure:
• Immediately turn the unit about its centre so that it is facing directly away from the centre of the charging enemy unit (ignore other units or impassable terrain). This turn is 'free' and does not reduce the distance the unit will flee.
• After turning, the unit flees 2D6" in the direction it is facing, as described under Move Fleeing Units in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase (see page 25)
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Offline Noght

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 12:31:42 PM »
I still try to avoid the "ping ponging" of units, I just want to run them off the board or out of the BSB bubble.  Running them down if they roll low is swell too.
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Offline Cursain

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 05:06:57 PM »
I still try to avoid the "ping ponging" of units, I just want to run them off the board or out of the BSB bubble.  Running them down if they roll low is swell too.

I'm playing charges differently than everyone it seems.  In my "charge" sub-phase of movement, I'm declaring each charge and asking the opponents to choose their charge reaction, then go to the next unit etc etc until all charges have been declared.  Then I roll for charge range for each unit.

I'm not sure this "ping ponging" is a valid tactic like some of your are saying, or forcing a unit to flee more than once per turn.

The reason I say this is because of pg. 18, where it describes "Roll Charge Range and Move Chargers".

Notice it says "With all the charge reactions declared and resolved, it's time to see whether or not the charges were successful......."

If you read that entire section it mentions units having to deal with multiple charges.

Also, above the "Roll Charge Range and Move Chargers" section in italics it runs through a scenario where a high elf unit makes three charge reactions, and the final reaction is to flee.  The first two charges can redirect, but they don't get to force the high elves to roll flee distance three times.


Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2012, 05:12:55 PM »
I am not quite sure that those who ping-pong necessarily mean that it happens within one and the same turn. You can, however, force a unit to Flee several times per turn. See the FAQ above.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 05:19:27 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Cursain

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2012, 05:20:24 PM »
I am not quite sure that those who ping-pong necessarily mean that it happens within one and the same turn.

Yea I don't know either.  All that matters is technically you shouldn't be able to force any unit to "flee" more than once for each players movement Turn.

For instance, in my GS example where I charged the skinks and redirected to the sauruses, IF I had a capegasus I couldn't have charged the fleeing skinks and essentially made them flee 4D6" in one movement turn.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2012, 05:22:53 PM »
Notice the modification in my previous post, which happened  while you were posting.
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Offline Cursain

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2012, 05:26:34 PM »
Notice the modification in my previous post, which happened  while you were posting.

Awesome, so it seems I am playing it right.  A unit can't flee more then 2D6/3D6" during any movement phase because the flee is done during compulsory, and there is only one compulsory phase.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2012, 05:47:01 PM »
I am afraid that is not the case. You move the fleeing unit immediately, but just in the way "as described under Move Fleeing Units in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase".
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Offline Cursain

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2012, 05:56:07 PM »
I am afraid that is not the case. You move the fleeing unit immediately, but just in the way "as described under Move Fleeing Units in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase".

Okay, now it makes sense Fidelis.  Once a flee reaction happens it must be handled immediately, but all charges are rolled, essentially, at the same time.  If a unit fails its charge, it's too late to change the target of another charging unit since all of them have been declared against identified units.

Right?

Offline Noght

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2012, 06:03:06 PM »
I am not quite sure that those who ping-pong necessarily mean that it happens within one and the same turn.

Yea I don't know either.  All that matters is technically you shouldn't be able to force any unit to "flee" more than once for each players movement Turn.

For instance, in my GS example where I charged the skinks and redirected to the sauruses, IF I had a capegasus I couldn't have charged the fleeing skinks and essentially made them flee 4D6" in one movement turn.

Ping-Ponging (my definition) is to get a unit fleeing away (say towards the board edge), declaring another charge causing it to flee back the way it came (away from the table edge).  Hence the ping and the pong.

I like to send them running twice (i.e. 4D6) toward the board edge.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Charging fleeing unit clarification
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2012, 06:05:58 PM »
Okay, now it makes sense Fidelis.  Once a flee reaction happens it must be handled immediately, but all charges are rolled, essentially, at the same time.  If a unit fails its charge, it's too late to change the target of another charging unit since all of them have been declared against identified units.

Right?

Well, you work through the charges one at a time, in any order you choose, calculating the charge distance for each and resolving the resultant successful or failed charge, before moving on to the next unit (the only exception is when several units charge a single target).
The order can be important, e.g. to get your own troops out of the way of a charge. But as you say: in this phase, you cannot change the target anymore. 
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