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Author Topic: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??  (Read 4595 times)

Offline Sajek

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How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« on: July 07, 2011, 04:22:12 AM »
So I need some help on how to combat this Go-Kart Army as I call it:

Mangler Squig
Mangler Squig
Snotling Pump Wagon
Snotling Pump Wagon
Snotling Pump Wagon
Snotling Pump Wagon (almost all of them have out-rigga, and Giant Explodin' Spores)
Orc Boar Chariot
Goblin Wolf Chariot
Goblin Wolf Chariot
30 Night Goblin Squig Heard
Troll
5 Goblin Wolf Riders
5 Goblin Wolf Riders
40 Night Goblins, 3 Fanatics, Netters
20 Night Goblins, Bows, 2 Fanatics
20 Goblins (bunker unit)
20 Goblins, Bows, 2 fanatics
35 Orc Boyz, Shields
1 Night Goblin BSB with high armor save
lvl 4 Goblin Shaman, Dispel Scroll
lvl 1 Goblin Shaman
Orc War boss

This just about exactly his list at 2K points

Roughly speaking he has a Ld9 Bubble with BSB support, enough goblin magic to reek havoc even against even the Empire's magic defense (the mushroom dice is killer).

His Mangler Squids cannot be charged, you can only move into contact with them. If you do move into contact with them its 3D6 S6 armor piercing hits. If he moves into contact with you its only 2D6 S6 armor piercing hits and then moves randomly instead of being controlled. Its -1 to hit when shooting at him, T4, and movement is 3D6.
His Snotling Pump Wagons can move up to 4D6 controlled, and do 2D6 S4, sometimes S5, and or ignoring armor.
His squig herd has WS4, S5, I3, A2 for 8 points a model....
His Wolf Chariots are S4, and hits Orc Chariots are S5 with the boars being S5 on the first round of combat.

In my opinion his army is extremely nasty with all of his fast units, Go-carts and fast calv being roughly 600 points putting out amazing damage. They generally destroy my flanks and go straight for my warmachines.(mostly due to the lack of having a hill on the battle field forcing me to deploy on the battle line).

The army I brought to this fight roughly consisted of:
1 General of the empire
1 Arch Lector
1 lvl 2 Battle wizard
BSB

40 Halberdiers
40 Halberdiers
18 Halberdiers (detachment)
18 Halberdiers (detachment)
10 Handgunner (detachment)
10 Handgunner (detachment)
20 Crossbowmen
2 Cannons
1 Mortar
1 Helstorm

I know this list isn't the strongest but I wanted to test out the detachment rules, which I didn't have an opportunity to. I have faced a similar army to the listed with similar lists from my own (I usually take out the detachments for crazies) but face a very similar fate. Utterly destruction and embarrassment.

Turn one usually consists of him winning the roll-off, charging forth with his fast units which cover the distance like none other and a general advance of his line troops. Some magic to buffer his faster units and any shots to peck off guys if he has any to make. I do my damndest to take out priority targets threatening my groups of warmachines and defend the flanks but with so many targets (11 targets) not much can be accomplished as  there is no way I'm able to magic/shoot all the available targets let alone destroy them. In most cases I'm able to wound several of the targets and maybe destroy 1 or 2. I do try to maneuver troops to defend my war machines and flanks but to be quite honest I find it nearly impossible to do that with such high movement on his part.

Turn two consists of him charging whatever is available, usually he is able to explode a war machine and destroy a unit (usually pistoliers that I sacrificed in the lost hope of getting one more round of shooting off). By this time, if he has gotten the roll-off I've taken heavy losses in both models and points without having done much damage. This generally leaves my flanks exposed to the same high damage dealing low point models. I try to shot more down but the situation is still where there are just too many targets to go after and I'll be lucky if I can destroy a few more.

By turn three my flanks are being charged as are my fronts by his infantry. I've lost the security of my flanks and my units are outnumbered and out damaged mostly due to the high amount of impact hits and high strength hits. If I attempt to charge forward and isolate a unit in combat (generally if one of his other supporting units have squabbled and as a result have been left behind of the main front) I get eaten alive by fanatics; 50% losses on a 40 man Halberdier unit due to fanatics, 2D6 S5 hits with armor piercing. I usually pass my leadership test and once into combat I find myself in the nets suffering a further -1 to strength. Combat then is a not good because even if I win combat res with a forward charge and flank charge the goblins have enough ranks to be stead fast and hold the line.

By turn 4, maybe 5 if I'm lucky, the game is over. After taking horrible losses and facing multiple charges from the front, flank, and rear with impact hits and large blocks of infantry I raise the white flag. As I see there is almost no possibility of victory and almost certain annihilation.

A few other problems that I'm facing is during deployment. With a lot of units to place on his side just about double mine he is able to see my army fully displayed on the battlefield and can place his remaining units strategically. Also, victory point wise is it much harder for me to gain points as him partly because I focus on taking out the 45-65 point models that can cause terrible damage to my units. I feel as if those units cannon be ignored because of the high amount of damage they do, and if they don't get taken out they will continue to cause high amounts of damage. During the course of the first few turns I do use my Mortar and Helstorm to weaken his main lines but usually it isn't enough to make a difference once each of our lines impact each other. I'm still terribly outnumbered and facing high amounts of high strength attacks.

I understand that I am still a newer player and I do not consider myself a very good general but to be honest I can't seem to fathom a way to defeat this style of army. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 04:29:07 AM by Sajek »

Offline Porkix

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2011, 06:06:17 AM »
Hi Sajek,

Did you try to deploy bunker style with your shooty detachment in front of your big blocks in front of your artillery?
The advantage is that he has a lot of units and he would not be able to throw them all in the fight at the same time.
With TLOS, you will still be able to shoot the priority target (chariot, pimp wagon)

Some advises:
- The priority for shooting is always the mangler. The pimp wagon can be taken into combat (even if they do a lot of damage) or charged if you are lucky.
- his pump wagon will be very disorganised (random movement), if you can charge them even with your shooty detachment, do so, you will break them and make the other gobbos take panic test!
- you should send either a captasus, a stank or pistoliers to take out the fanatics early. Then the fanatics will block his own movements.
- you have 3 BS shooting units, I think it's too much and you should replace your 20 crossbows with something faster: block of 5 knights, mortars...
- his Ld bubble might not be that good if you look at the number of blocks he has. Look out for gobbos outside of the re-roll or General Ld and drop a mortat on them. They might panic and cause more panic
- A steam tank, he has no way to deal with it. Run it full speed toward the blocks with fanatics and then hit the general unit...

and by the way, I don't think you have -1 to Hit the mangler when shooting

Porkix
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 06:29:48 AM by Porkix »

Offline csjarrat

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2011, 07:24:45 AM »
Well the prime reason you're getting swamped is that you are sitting back waiting to get swamped.
Youll never beat a mega fast hitty army with small detachments, so id drop the lot of them and build a nice block of knights with a priest in it. Captain on a pegasus would be good too. That lvl2 should really be a level four as it will reduce some of the pain youre facing in the magic phase. Smaller units of knights are advisable too.

When he moves forwards, slam your knights into him. You deny him the impact hits and theyll then struggle to break your armour, whilst your s5/6 attacks should cut his chariots to pieces
Cannons and xbows can deal with a couple of things and maybe take an aggressive lore like death, fire or shadow to help in your phase too.
Compared to the state troops they are a gentle handjob on a friday evening - jaggedjimmyj in ref to knights

Offline Kirgan

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 08:38:10 AM »
Make panic so you will kill all army best LD is 7 I think  :unsure:
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Offline MrAbyssal

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 09:07:47 AM »
Make panic so you will kill all army best LD is 7 I think  :unsure:

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Offline Obi

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 09:09:48 AM »
2 5 man detachments of FC will take care of the manglers. Shoot the rest. He has no artillery, so your problem is him charging with everything at once (twice). Start moving around him, use pistoliers and small units of knights for march blocking etc. Versus a fast moving army the worst thing you can do is be static. You need a tarpit, either GS or the Crown of Command. Swap the helstorm for a HBVG and drop in another mortar. That way you'll have enough templates for his blocks, but also cannons and a machine gun for his other units.

His army has two parts, one fast and one slow. If you only shoot the fast, you'll then be swamped by the slow. And vice-versa. So shoot both (with different weapons) and move around so you won't be charged by both waves consecutively.

Also, cannon snipe the general.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 09:47:10 AM »
Kill the General with massive shooting and magic. Panic and Terror the army off the field. I will start to try a Ieeekasus.

Captain of the Empire
Pegasus
Full plate armour
Lance
Charmed Shield (the 5 points item that grants him a 2+ save against the first hit)
Mask of Iek! (granting him terror)

142 poinst of pure Terror


It is quiet nice to get rid of lonely wolf chariots away from the general you charge he usually fails his leadership test and runs you redirect into another unit and usually scare that one off too.

Just stay away from those mangler squigs those you should shoot to death.

How does he reach Ld9 bubble? I thought the goblin shamans are only ld 8.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 12:52:59 PM »
There is no problem that cannot be solved with cannons!  :closed-eyes: And mortars...
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Hetelic

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 01:05:00 PM »
And a steamtank.

I dont see anything in his list with the power to cause it too much trouble

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 01:06:26 PM »
Curse of the badmoon could get it ...but with loads of luck only.

(most armies have not much to get the steam tank into trouble....he could place a snotling pump wagon or something similar in front of it each turn though...I think the impact hits are once per game with no armour saves).

Offline Sajek

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 05:01:38 PM »
Thanks for the advice.

I do like the idea of a Steam Tank, I just lack the model and the only thing I have to proxy for it would be an Orc Boar Chariot lol. Even against T10 I would still be worried about multiple 6s' with no armor save allowed from the pump wagons, and other 6s' sneaking by elsewhere, which I suppose could be remedied by taking a lvl 4 life wizard. Dwellers below would be a nice spell to rid myself of some of his blocks.

Its the same concern that I have for taking Knights and Greatswords. The reason I haven't is because of the massive movement he has and the High strength armor piercing attacks. I feel that If I were to take the knights I wouldn't be able to avoid getting slaughtered because dogging up to 11 units who could slaughter them and eat straight through their armor. However, letting him move into charge range on his turn and charging forth on my turn is not a bad idea, its his next turn I do not like.

I have not tried the bunker idea but I'll have to give it a go in one of my future games.

5 man detachments of Militia, I know of this strategy but I still haven't tested it out. I'm going to in my next match.

So I'm not 100% sure about how exactly using a capituss to bring out fanatics would work. In the O&G book it specifically states that fanatics have to be released once an enemy unit comes within 8" (fliers must land) the controlling player nominates the direction and then rolls 2D6 for the movement it goes. I don't know if he has to nominate the direction first and then roll or what. Charges that were declared must be finished unless the unit becomes paniced, but a unit that was just moving can nominate to stop their move or continue with it. Does this mean that I can now wheel around a fanatic since I know where he is or do I continue with the original movement? Also if he lands a fanatic on my Capituss base I'm taking 2D6 S5 armor piercing hits and the fanatic is removed as a causality. I find this part particularly retarded... why would I who's flying above short little goblins land because they released fanatics only to leap back up into the air once they're done and had the chance to attack  and likely kill me....

So it sounds like I need to turn my Empire army from a defensive force, of shot you up and then hit with infantry to an offensive force. How do you do this and still leave adequate defense for the war machines?

Leaderships for the fast crap:
Pump wagon 4
Wolf Chariot, Wolf Riders 6
Orc Chariot 7

After looking at the suggestions and making some changes here is a basic proposed list:
Arch Lector, GW, Dawn armor
Wizard lord, RoP, sword of justice
Capituss, lance, enchanted shield, terrifying mask of eee! (I love this idea as I know those units are exposed from the LD/BSB bubble)
BSB, Metoric Iron
Engineer
Engineer

30 Halberdiers FC
5 Militia (detachment)
29 Halberdiers FC
5 Militia (detachment)
6 Knights, Lance, steel standard, musician
6 Knights, Lance, musician

Great Cannon
Mortar
Mortar
5 Pistoliers, Musician (If I take the repeater handgun do I always have to stand and shoot when charged?)
5 Pistoliers, Musician

Helblaster

This puts me at 1999 points.
 

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 05:06:07 PM »
I am glad we could help and good luck then  :::cheers:::

Offline Sajek

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 05:13:21 PM »
Ahh FAQ, repeater pistol = quick to fire.

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 06:55:51 PM »
(If I take the repeater handgun do I always have to stand and shoot when charged?)


Ahh FAQ, repeater pistol = quick to fire.

Quick to fire is doesn't need to always stand and shoot when charged only that you are able to shoot at them even if their charge is within half their range. You can still flee if you want.
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Offline Sajek

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Re: How to defeat a Go-Kart army??
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2011, 06:17:37 PM »
Well I was able to beat my opponent's Go-Cart army twice in a row playing SoM.

The list I brought was

Arch Lector, Dawn armor, GreatWeapon, and Magic Resistance 2
Battle Wizard, lvl2, Rod of Power (fire)
Battle Wizard, lvl2, Dispel scroll (Metal)
Battle Wizard, lvl1
Battle Wizard, lvl1
BSB, Metoric Iron, Luck stone

30 Halberdier FC
30 Halberdier FC
5 Militia
5 Militia
29 Crazies

2x Cannon
Mortar
20 Greatswords FC
5 Pistoliers, Musician Champion + repeator Pistol

Great Black Dragon
Rhinox

It was storm of magic soo objectives were different and Empire as a much better variety of spells to use with increased magic! The pistoliers were ineffective and I'm not sure that I'll be bringing them next round, at least for SoM. Deployment was still difficult because he can place his big blocks and single guys like that 1 troll, enabling him to see my army fully deployed then place all of his nastyness.

I must say its quite ridiculous how a mangler squid can go 7" hit a unit and then bounce through 4 units going a total distance of greater than 14" and do 2D6 hits to each unit....

Overall the two fights were quite fun. Though I have a feeling I will be facing less GO-Carts in the next fight we have especially if its Storm of Magic.